[gentoo-dev] About DESCRIPTION in ebuilds needing to end with a dot "."

[gentoo-dev] About DESCRIPTION in ebuilds needing to end with a dot "."

[Pacho Ramos]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 192 bytes --]

Hello

At least in spanish, it's mandatory to end phrases with a dot ".", would
you agree with trying to enforce this trivial change with a repoman
warning?

Thanks for your opinions


[-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-dev] About DESCRIPTION in ebuilds needing to end with a dot "."

[Doug Goldstein]

On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 2:01 PM, Pacho Ramos <pacho@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Hello
>
> At least in spanish, it's mandatory to end phrases with a dot ".", would
> you agree with trying to enforce this trivial change with a repoman
> warning?
>
> Thanks for your opinions
>

I don't really see the advantage or upside. English requires sentences
end in a dot as well.


-- 
Doug Goldstein

Re: [gentoo-dev] About DESCRIPTION in ebuilds needing to end with a dot "."

[Thomas Sachau]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 558 bytes --]

Pacho Ramos schrieb:
> Hello
> 
> At least in spanish, it's mandatory to end phrases with a dot ".", would
> you agree with trying to enforce this trivial change with a repoman
> warning?
> 
> Thanks for your opinions
> 

I dont know any such requirement from english nor german and neither do
i see any benefit from adding a dot at the end of the DESCRIPTION
variable. So if you want to have a unified behaviour all over the tree,
i would request all descriptions to be without the final dot.

-- 

Thomas Sachau
Gentoo Linux Developer


[-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 377 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-dev] About DESCRIPTION in ebuilds needing to end with a dot "."

[vivo75]

Il 19/10/2012 21:36, Thomas Sachau ha scritto:
> Pacho Ramos schrieb:
>> Hello
>>
>> At least in spanish, it's mandatory to end phrases with a dot ".", would
>> you agree with trying to enforce this trivial change with a repoman
>> warning?
>>
>> Thanks for your opinions
>>
> I dont know any such requirement from english nor german and neither do
> i see any benefit from adding a dot at the end of the DESCRIPTION
> variable. So if you want to have a unified behaviour all over the tree,
> i would request all descriptions to be without the final dot.
>
+1

Re: [gentoo-dev] About DESCRIPTION in ebuilds needing to end with a dot "."

[Ulrich Mueller]

>>>>> On Fri, 19 Oct 2012, Thomas Sachau wrote:

> Pacho Ramos schrieb:
>> At least in spanish, it's mandatory to end phrases with a dot ".",
>> would you agree with trying to enforce this trivial change with a
>> repoman warning?

> I dont know any such requirement from english nor german and neither
> do i see any benefit from adding a dot at the end of the DESCRIPTION
> variable. So if you want to have a unified behaviour all over the
> tree, i would request all descriptions to be without the final dot.

+1

Re: [gentoo-dev] About DESCRIPTION in ebuilds needing to end with a dot "."

[Jeroen Roovers]

On Fri, 19 Oct 2012 21:36:36 +0200
Thomas Sachau <tommy@gentoo.org> wrote:

> Pacho Ramos schrieb:
> > At least in spanish, it's mandatory to end phrases with a dot ".",
> > would you agree with trying to enforce this trivial change with a
> > repoman warning?

DESCRIPTIONs don't and shouldn't contain complete sentences. If they do,
they should be fixed.

Wrong description, and grammatically correct:
foo-1.ebuild:   "Foo is a tool that does bar."

Correct description, and grammatically correct:
foo-1.ebuild:   "a tool that does bar"

The point is that you're writing a dictionary entry, and not telling a
story.

> I dont know any such requirement from english nor german and neither
> do i see any benefit from adding a dot at the end of the DESCRIPTION
> variable. So if you want to have a unified behaviour all over the
> tree, i would request all descriptions to be without the final dot.

+1


     jer

Re: [gentoo-dev] About DESCRIPTION in ebuilds needing to end with a dot "."

[Alexandre Rostovtsev]

On Fri, 2012-10-19 at 21:01 +0200, Pacho Ramos wrote:
> Hello
> 
> At least in spanish, it's mandatory to end phrases with a dot ".", would
> you agree with trying to enforce this trivial change with a repoman
> warning?
> 
> Thanks for your opinions

In English, it is also mandatory to end sentences in "."

But package DESCRIPTION strings are almost never complete sentences; in
the vast majority of cases, they are just titles that are noun phrases
grammatically, and therefore do not need a "."

For example, nobody would call descriptions of gcc ("The GNU Compiler
Collection"), libX11 ("X.Org X11 library"), or polkit ("Policy framework
for controlling privileges for system-wide services") complete English
sentences. For one thing, they don't have verbs.

Some packages do have DESCRIPTIONs that are complete sentences
grammatically: x11-libs/qt, for example, has "The Qt toolkit is a
comprehensive C++ application development framework." (and it ends in a
".") So for those cases, the ebuild maintainers could append "." if they
want to. But even then, I would not make something this trivial into a
requirement.

Re: [gentoo-dev] About DESCRIPTION in ebuilds needing to end with a dot "."

[Michał Górny]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 851 bytes --]

On Fri, 19 Oct 2012 21:01:57 +0200
Pacho Ramos <pacho@gentoo.org> wrote:

> At least in spanish, it's mandatory to end phrases with a dot ".", would
> you agree with trying to enforce this trivial change with a repoman
> warning?

In my opinion, descriptions should not be sentences. Sentences
in English not only need to end with a dot but also require a subject
and a predicate. That makes them unnecessarily long, filled with
useless information like repeated package name and obvious 'is',
at least.

So, rephrasing the example Alexandre pasted, consider:

x11-libs/qt-core - The Qt toolkit is a comprehensive C++ application
                   development framework.

vs.

x11-libs/qt-core - A comprehensive C++ application development framework

Which one is better, in your opinion?

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 316 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-dev] About DESCRIPTION in ebuilds needing to end with a dot "."

[Rich Freeman]

On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 4:37 PM, Michał Górny <mgorny@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Sentences in English not only need to end with a dot but also require a subject
> and a predicate.

Another repoman check?  And don't forget the topic for Japanese.

<ducks>

Re: [gentoo-dev] About DESCRIPTION in ebuilds needing to end with a dot "."

[Pacho Ramos]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1060 bytes --]

El vie, 19-10-2012 a las 22:37 +0200, Michał Górny escribió:
> On Fri, 19 Oct 2012 21:01:57 +0200
> Pacho Ramos <pacho@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 
> > At least in spanish, it's mandatory to end phrases with a dot ".", would
> > you agree with trying to enforce this trivial change with a repoman
> > warning?
> 
> In my opinion, descriptions should not be sentences. Sentences
> in English not only need to end with a dot but also require a subject
> and a predicate. That makes them unnecessarily long, filled with
> useless information like repeated package name and obvious 'is',
> at least.
> 
> So, rephrasing the example Alexandre pasted, consider:
> 
> x11-libs/qt-core - The Qt toolkit is a comprehensive C++ application
>                    development framework.
> 
> vs.
> 
> x11-libs/qt-core - A comprehensive C++ application development framework
> 
> Which one is better, in your opinion?
> 

Well, I my case I would prefer second sentence... but it would still end
with a dot. But if it sounds rare for you, no problem.

[-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-dev] About DESCRIPTION in ebuilds needing to end with a dot "."

[Peter Stuge]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1763 bytes --]

Pacho Ramos wrote:
> > So, rephrasing the example Alexandre pasted, consider:
> > 
> > x11-libs/qt-core - The Qt toolkit is a comprehensive C++ application
> >                    development framework.
> > 
> > vs.
> > 
> > x11-libs/qt-core - A comprehensive C++ application development framework
> > 
> > Which one is better, in your opinion?
> 
> Well, I my case I would prefer second

I agree, I also like the second example.


> sentence...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentence_(linguistics)#Major_and_minor_sentences

Suggests that even a phrase such as the second example above can be
called a (minor) sentence.


> but it would still end with a dot.

I think that looks ugly and is redundant.

Especially if we were to require that all DESCRIPTION phrases must
always be presented with a full stop, I think it is a very bad idea
to enforce that they are written into the ebuilds. Especially if
there is a rule that they will always be terminated by a full stop
then that should and must be added by tools using the ebuild.

It makes absolutely no sense to have so frequent redundant data in
ebuilds, and it seems like full stop or no full stop is a matter of
presentation policy and should thus happen during presentation.


> But if it sounds rare for you, no problem.

ebuilds are markup and not formatting IMO, and the two shouldn't be
confused. If you want to work on presentation (which is important
too!) then go for it, but in any case I don't think a full stop at
end of descriptions is really worth the cost. All user interfaces are
shitty enough already, and users are unable to deal with information
already, so please don't add redundancy like full stops would be to
the problem.


//Peter

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 190 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-dev] About DESCRIPTION in ebuilds needing to end with a dot "."

[Pacho Ramos]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2080 bytes --]

El sáb, 20-10-2012 a las 16:27 +0200, Peter Stuge escribió:
> Pacho Ramos wrote:
> > > So, rephrasing the example Alexandre pasted, consider:
> > > 
> > > x11-libs/qt-core - The Qt toolkit is a comprehensive C++ application
> > >                    development framework.
> > > 
> > > vs.
> > > 
> > > x11-libs/qt-core - A comprehensive C++ application development framework
> > > 
> > > Which one is better, in your opinion?
> > 
> > Well, I my case I would prefer second
> 
> I agree, I also like the second example.
> 
> 
> > sentence...
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentence_(linguistics)#Major_and_minor_sentences
> 
> Suggests that even a phrase such as the second example above can be
> called a (minor) sentence.
> 
> 
> > but it would still end with a dot.
> 
> I think that looks ugly and is redundant.
> 
> Especially if we were to require that all DESCRIPTION phrases must
> always be presented with a full stop, I think it is a very bad idea
> to enforce that they are written into the ebuilds. Especially if
> there is a rule that they will always be terminated by a full stop
> then that should and must be added by tools using the ebuild.
> 
> It makes absolutely no sense to have so frequent redundant data in
> ebuilds, and it seems like full stop or no full stop is a matter of
> presentation policy and should thus happen during presentation.
> 
> 
> > But if it sounds rare for you, no problem.
> 
> ebuilds are markup and not formatting IMO, and the two shouldn't be
> confused. If you want to work on presentation (which is important
> too!) then go for it, but in any case I don't think a full stop at
> end of descriptions is really worth the cost. All user interfaces are
> shitty enough already, and users are unable to deal with information
> already, so please don't add redundancy like full stops would be to
> the problem.
> 
> 
> //Peter

Well, no problem in either way we finally choose (either "." or not),
was simply trying to know what is preferred and try to unify the
handling.

[-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-dev] About DESCRIPTION in ebuilds needing to end with a dot "."

[Michał Górny]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 453 bytes --]

On Sat, 20 Oct 2012 16:27:05 +0200
Peter Stuge <peter@stuge.se> wrote:

> Pacho Ramos wrote:
> > sentence...
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentence_(linguistics)#Major_and_minor_sentences
> 
> Suggests that even a phrase such as the second example above can be
> called a (minor) sentence.

Ah, good to know. In Polish this thing is called differently from
sentences, that's why I got it confused.

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 316 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-dev] About DESCRIPTION in ebuilds needing to end with a dot "."

[Samuli Suominen]

On 19/10/12 22:01, Pacho Ramos wrote:
> Hello
>
> At least in spanish, it's mandatory to end phrases with a dot ".", would
> you agree with trying to enforce this trivial change with a repoman
> warning?
>
> Thanks for your opinions
>

I've just dropped the dot from sci-calculators/galculator without 
reading this thread

The ending dot looks... umm... stupid.

So another +1 for the 'without dot camp' :P

- Samuli

Re: [gentoo-dev] About DESCRIPTION in ebuilds needing to end with a dot "."

[Ben de Groot]

On 20 October 2012 03:01, Pacho Ramos <pacho@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Hello
>
> At least in spanish, it's mandatory to end phrases with a dot ".", would
> you agree with trying to enforce this trivial change with a repoman
> warning?

In English, phrases don't end with a full stop. As has been argued
elsewhere in this thread, using full stops (periods, dots) is
unnecessary, redundant, and ugly.

It is my professional opinion, as an English teacher, that we should
*never* use full stops in DESCRIPTION fields.

If we are to use a repoman warning, we should encourage people to NOT
use a full stop at the end of their description phrases. Also, the
package name should not be repeated as part of the description.

-- 
Cheers,

Ben | yngwin
Gentoo developer
Gentoo Qt project lead, Gentoo Wiki admin

Re: [gentoo-dev] About DESCRIPTION in ebuilds needing to end with a dot "."

[Pacho Ramos]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 902 bytes --]

El dom, 21-10-2012 a las 09:34 +0800, Ben de Groot escribió:
> On 20 October 2012 03:01, Pacho Ramos <pacho@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > Hello
> >
> > At least in spanish, it's mandatory to end phrases with a dot ".", would
> > you agree with trying to enforce this trivial change with a repoman
> > warning?
> 
> In English, phrases don't end with a full stop. As has been argued
> elsewhere in this thread, using full stops (periods, dots) is
> unnecessary, redundant, and ugly.
> 
> It is my professional opinion, as an English teacher, that we should
> *never* use full stops in DESCRIPTION fields.
> 
> If we are to use a repoman warning, we should encourage people to NOT
> use a full stop at the end of their description phrases. Also, the
> package name should not be repeated as part of the description.
> 

Yes, looks like I was wrong and the proper is to not end with a dot.

[-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --]

[gentoo-dev] Re: About DESCRIPTION in ebuilds needing to end with a dot "."

[Ryan Hill]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 736 bytes --]

On Fri, 19 Oct 2012 21:01:57 +0200
Pacho Ramos <pacho@gentoo.org> wrote:

> Hello
> 
> At least in spanish, it's mandatory to end phrases with a dot ".", would
> you agree with trying to enforce this trivial change with a repoman
> warning?
> 
> Thanks for your opinions

I'm assuming that since we're now having dozen-post threads about
whether or not to have periods in our descriptions that all the hard stuff
has been solved?

Sweet, I'll prepare my repoman patch to enforce two spaces between sentences
in Changelogs. (mwahahahaha)


-- 
gcc-porting
toolchain, wxwidgets          we were never more here, expanse getting broader
@ gentoo.org                          but bigger boats been done by less water

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: About DESCRIPTION in ebuilds needing to end with a dot "."

[Jeroen Roovers]

On Sat, 20 Oct 2012 22:35:04 -0600
Ryan Hill <dirtyepic@gentoo.org> wrote:

> I'm assuming that since we're now having dozen-post threads about
> whether or not to have periods in our descriptions that all the hard
> stuff has been solved?

Perhaps in planning QA, for now, but certainly not in executing it.
Documentation is lacking, too, and then some people still wouldn't read
it anyway, and with more EAPI changes we keep adding more ways to screw
it up, so please stand still while we reinvent the wheels on your desk
chair.

> Sweet, I'll prepare my repoman patch to enforce two spaces between
> sentences in Changelogs. (mwahahahaha)

Don't think for a minute you can foil my scheme to enforce slashes at
the end of URLs when not followed by paths.


     jer

Re: [gentoo-dev] About DESCRIPTION in ebuilds needing to end with a dot "."

[Mike Frysinger]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: Text/Plain, Size: 514 bytes --]

On Friday 19 October 2012 15:01:57 Pacho Ramos wrote:
> At least in spanish, it's mandatory to end phrases with a dot ".", would
> you agree with trying to enforce this trivial change with a repoman
> warning?

actually the opposite here ... DESCRIPTION should be a sentence fragment, and 
should avoid useless self referencing.  such as starting with "${PN} is ...".  
thanks, i can already connect the ${PN} to this description.

i clean that up (and delete the trailing dot) whenever i see it.
-mike

[-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part. --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 836 bytes --]