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* [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Council 2010/2011 - Voting
@ 2010-06-19 19:56 Roy Bamford
  2010-06-19 21:06 ` [gentoo-dev] Manifesto for council election Tony "Chainsaw" Vroon
                   ` (6 more replies)
  0 siblings, 7 replies; 26+ messages in thread
From: Roy Bamford @ 2010-06-19 19:56 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-announce, gentoo-dev; +Cc: elections

Team,

Everything is in place to allow voting in the above election commence 
as planned on June 20th at 00:00:00 UTC.

The polls will remain open until July 3rd 23:59:59 UTC.

Your candidates are:-
betelgeuse
chainsaw
ferringb
halcy0n
jmbsvicetto
patrick
phajdan.jr
scarabeus
sping
wired
_reopen_nominations


Here are the rules:

All active Gentoo developers on the roll before nominations opened are 
eligible to vote.
 
To vote login to dev.gentoo.org and run the following commands:

1. votify --new council201006 - This creates a new ballot in your 
homedir.
2. Edit the .ballot-council201006 file and rank the candidates.
3. Once you're sure, run votify --verify council201006 to check 
the validity of the ballot.
4. If that goes through fine, the next and final step is to submit
your vote using votify --submit council201006
5. If you're stuck, use votify --help or go to #gentoo-elections
(on freenode) and ask officials for help.

Votes that are not submitted before the poll closes will not be 
counted.

Good luck and thank you for all your votes.

-- 
Regards,

Roy Bamford
(Neddyseagoon) a member of
gentoo-ops
forum-mods
trustees
elections




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread

* [gentoo-dev] Manifesto for council election
  2010-06-19 19:56 [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Council 2010/2011 - Voting Roy Bamford
@ 2010-06-19 21:06 ` Tony "Chainsaw" Vroon
  2010-06-20 11:19 ` [gentoo-dev] My Council manifest Petteri Räty
                   ` (5 subsequent siblings)
  6 siblings, 0 replies; 26+ messages in thread
From: Tony "Chainsaw" Vroon @ 2010-06-19 21:06 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1951 bytes --]

As you've seen, Chainsaw is on the list as a council candidate.
I use Gentoo in a professional capacity, as a UNIX systems administrator
for one of the largest internet exchanges in the world [1]. Right now, I
administer 42 machines running non-multilib hardened AMD64.
The topic of "Gentoo in the enterprise" surfaces from time to time on
the mailing lists, but the current direction that Gentoo is taking seems
to steer away from it.

Should you elect me to the council, I will do my best to discourage the
frequent usage of overlays. Not only can overlay ebuilds slip through
the QA net that is frequently trawled through the main tree (and they
often do), the ownership is not always clear. There is no central
location to report bugs in overlay ebuilds.
Last but not least, moving ebuilds out into overlays means that larger
deployments like mine are unable to use them.

One other problem that has appeared on my radar more then once lately. 
When developers lose motivation and stop committing to a package for
which they are the sole maintainer it can take a considerable amount of
time before this is dealt with in the form of a retirement bug or "last
rites" e-mail.
With a business dependency on some packages, that can be too long. I
believe we should actively seek out such packages and see if another
developer can be motivated to take the package over.
Failing that, I believe no ebuild is a fairer situation then an
outdated/stagnant ebuild with open bugs that are not looked at. Some
automated QA processes like the tinderbox already help with this but
without official recognition of these bugs as QA matters the full
potential of it goes untapped.

In writing this, I realise that some or all of what I have just written
may be controversial to you. Can I ask that you speak with your vote and
not in this mailing list.

Regards,
Tony "Chainsaw" Vroon

1: https://www.linx.net/about/index.html

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread

* [gentoo-dev] My Council manifest
  2010-06-19 19:56 [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Council 2010/2011 - Voting Roy Bamford
  2010-06-19 21:06 ` [gentoo-dev] Manifesto for council election Tony "Chainsaw" Vroon
@ 2010-06-20 11:19 ` Petteri Räty
  2010-06-20 13:47 ` [gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo Council 2010/2011 - Voting Roy Bamford
                   ` (4 subsequent siblings)
  6 siblings, 0 replies; 26+ messages in thread
From: Petteri Räty @ 2010-06-20 11:19 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev; +Cc: elections

On 19.6.2010 21.56, Roy Bamford wrote:
> Team,
> 
> Everything is in place to allow voting in the above election commence 
> as planned on June 20th at 00:00:00 UTC.
> 

I put an initial manifesto here:
http://dev.gentoo.org/~betelgeuse/manifesto-2010.html

I will take a second glance on it once I get back from Barcelona tomorrow.

Regards,
Petteri



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread

* [gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo Council 2010/2011 - Voting
  2010-06-19 19:56 [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Council 2010/2011 - Voting Roy Bamford
  2010-06-19 21:06 ` [gentoo-dev] Manifesto for council election Tony "Chainsaw" Vroon
  2010-06-20 11:19 ` [gentoo-dev] My Council manifest Petteri Räty
@ 2010-06-20 13:47 ` Roy Bamford
  2010-06-21 16:33 ` [gentoo-dev] Council manifesto of sping Sebastian Pipping
                   ` (3 subsequent siblings)
  6 siblings, 0 replies; 26+ messages in thread
From: Roy Bamford @ 2010-06-20 13:47 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev

On 2010.06.19 20:56, Roy Bamford wrote:
> Team,
> 
> Everything is in place to allow voting in the above election commence 
> as planned on June 20th at 00:00:00 UTC.
> 
> The polls will remain open until July 3rd 23:59:59 UTC.
> 
> Your candidates are:-
> betelgeuse
> chainsaw
> ferringb
> halcy0n
> jmbsvicetto
> patrick
> phajdan.jr
> scarabeus
> sping
> wired
> _reopen_nominations
> 
> 
> Here are the rules:
> 
> All active Gentoo developers on the roll before nominations opened 
> are
> 
> eligible to vote.
>  
> To vote login to dev.gentoo.org and run the following commands:
> 
> 1. votify --new council201006 - This creates a new ballot in your 
> homedir.
> 2. Edit the .ballot-council201006 file and rank the candidates.
> 3. Once you're sure, run votify --verify council201006 to check 
> the validity of the ballot.
> 4. If that goes through fine, the next and final step is to submit
> your vote using votify --submit council201006
> 5. If you're stuck, use votify --help or go to #gentoo-elections
> (on freenode) and ask officials for help.
> 
> Votes that are not submitted before the poll closes will not be 
> counted.
> 
> Good luck and thank you for all your votes.
> 
> -- 
> Regards,
> 
> Roy Bamford
[snip]

Team,

The problem with the ballot has now been fixed - thank you to those 
members of the electorate that drew it to our attention.

The above rules and timescales still apply. The elections team 
determined that the voting period should not be extended.

-- 
Regards,

Roy Bamford
(Neddyseagoon) a member of
gentoo-ops
forum-mods
trustees
elections




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread

* [gentoo-dev] Council manifesto of sping
  2010-06-19 19:56 [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Council 2010/2011 - Voting Roy Bamford
                   ` (2 preceding siblings ...)
  2010-06-20 13:47 ` [gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo Council 2010/2011 - Voting Roy Bamford
@ 2010-06-21 16:33 ` Sebastian Pipping
  2010-06-21 18:20   ` Petteri Räty
                     ` (2 more replies)
  2010-06-21 19:10 ` [gentoo-dev] My council manifesto Mark Loeser
                   ` (2 subsequent siblings)
  6 siblings, 3 replies; 26+ messages in thread
From: Sebastian Pipping @ 2010-06-21 16:33 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev; +Cc: elections

Hello!


My manifesto up here now:
http://dev.gentoo.org/~sping/council-manifesto-2010-sping.txt

Thanks for your vote!

Best,



Sebastian



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-dev] Council manifesto of sping
  2010-06-21 16:33 ` [gentoo-dev] Council manifesto of sping Sebastian Pipping
@ 2010-06-21 18:20   ` Petteri Räty
  2010-06-21 21:07     ` Sebastian Pipping
  2010-06-21 19:25   ` Arun Raghavan
  2010-06-22  2:37   ` Alec Warner
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 26+ messages in thread
From: Petteri Räty @ 2010-06-21 18:20 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1076 bytes --]

On 06/21/2010 07:33 PM, Sebastian Pipping wrote:
> Hello!
> 
> 
> My manifesto up here now:
> http://dev.gentoo.org/~sping/council-manifesto-2010-sping.txt
> 

> - Building sites
>   - Active Council
>   - More direct democracy
>   - New conflict resolution team (reforming DevRel)
>   - Ownership and territories
>   - The two sides of infra
>   - The Git migration
>   - Opening up documentation
>   - Gentoo PR: Database and frequent news
>   - Internal news (i.e. increasing transparency)
>   - (Paid external) website re-design
>   - Introducing templates (e.g. for bug replies)
>   - Tone and attitude in Gentoo
>   - Other (minor) things

How many hours do you expect to use weekly to accomplish all these goals?

> To my understanding the conflict resolution part of DevRel is currently not working effectively.

If we are not working effectively it's not because of how we are
organized but due to needing more man power. The good thing is that
people have offered to help and I am slowly training us new members.

Regards,
Petteri


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread

* [gentoo-dev] My council manifesto
  2010-06-19 19:56 [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Council 2010/2011 - Voting Roy Bamford
                   ` (3 preceding siblings ...)
  2010-06-21 16:33 ` [gentoo-dev] Council manifesto of sping Sebastian Pipping
@ 2010-06-21 19:10 ` Mark Loeser
  2010-06-21 19:15   ` Arun Raghavan
  2010-06-21 21:19 ` [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Council 2010/2011 - Voting Mike Frysinger
  2010-07-02 22:32 ` [gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo Council 2010/2011 - Voting - Reminder Roy Bamford
  6 siblings, 1 reply; 26+ messages in thread
From: Mark Loeser @ 2010-06-21 19:10 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev

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Its quite simple.  I want to get innovation starting in Gentoo again.  I
am tired of seeing pointless arguments and threads that don't actually
make Gentoo any better.  Improving QA, improving our documentation,
making it easier for people to recognize how they can contribute, and
improving Gentoo as a whole, are all things that the Council should be
taking an active role in, and I want to be a part of making that happen.

I told you it was going to be short :)

Thanks,

-- 
Mark Loeser
email         -   halcy0n AT gentoo DOT org
email         -   mark AT halcy0n DOT com
web           -   http://www.halcy0n.com

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-dev] My council manifesto
  2010-06-21 19:10 ` [gentoo-dev] My council manifesto Mark Loeser
@ 2010-06-21 19:15   ` Arun Raghavan
  2010-06-21 19:27     ` Mark Loeser
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 26+ messages in thread
From: Arun Raghavan @ 2010-06-21 19:15 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev

On 22 June 2010 00:40, Mark Loeser <halcy0n@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Its quite simple.  I want to get innovation starting in Gentoo again.  I
> am tired of seeing pointless arguments and threads that don't actually
> make Gentoo any better.  Improving QA, improving our documentation,
> making it easier for people to recognize how they can contribute, and
> improving Gentoo as a whole, are all things that the Council should be
> taking an active role in, and I want to be a part of making that happen.

Do you have any concrete ideas on how you will be doing these things?

Cheers,
-- 
Arun Raghavan
http://arunraghavan.net/
(Ford_Prefect | Gentoo) & (arunsr | GNOME)



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-dev] Council manifesto of sping
  2010-06-21 16:33 ` [gentoo-dev] Council manifesto of sping Sebastian Pipping
  2010-06-21 18:20   ` Petteri Räty
@ 2010-06-21 19:25   ` Arun Raghavan
  2010-06-21 21:36     ` Sebastian Pipping
  2010-06-22  2:37   ` Alec Warner
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 26+ messages in thread
From: Arun Raghavan @ 2010-06-21 19:25 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev; +Cc: elections

Hi,

On 21 June 2010 22:03, Sebastian Pipping <sping@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Hello!
>
>
> My manifesto up here now:
> http://dev.gentoo.org/~sping/council-manifesto-2010-sping.txt

For all your points where you do not have a concrete proposal of how
you intend to tackle the problem, could you please elaborate?

""" (w.r.t. git migration)
I hope to see Robin integrate me with the conversion process.
"""

How have you contributed to the effort thus far?

Regards,
-- 
Arun Raghavan
http://arunraghavan.net/
(Ford_Prefect | Gentoo) & (arunsr | GNOME)



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-dev] My council manifesto
  2010-06-21 19:15   ` Arun Raghavan
@ 2010-06-21 19:27     ` Mark Loeser
  2010-06-21 19:30       ` Arun Raghavan
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 26+ messages in thread
From: Mark Loeser @ 2010-06-21 19:27 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2208 bytes --]

Arun Raghavan <ford_prefect@gentoo.org> said:
> On 22 June 2010 00:40, Mark Loeser <halcy0n@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > Its quite simple.  I want to get innovation starting in Gentoo again.  I
> > am tired of seeing pointless arguments and threads that don't actually
> > make Gentoo any better.  Improving QA, improving our documentation,
> > making it easier for people to recognize how they can contribute, and
> > improving Gentoo as a whole, are all things that the Council should be
> > taking an active role in, and I want to be a part of making that happen.
> 
> Do you have any concrete ideas on how you will be doing these things?

We already have some people very active in QA working on tinderboxing.
I'd like to continue to have their work done, and try to expand on the
work they are doing to have it run on other architectures.  I've already
successfully got an ia64 donated for this.

We clearly have people that are interested in working on documentation,
but in wiki format.  I want to learn more why they are invested in that
format, and if there is some middle ground we can work on.

Its been a long standing problem that it seems people don't understand
how to become part of Gentoo.  I'd like to see the Staffing Needs page
better advertised, and update the How to Become a Developer guide to
help direct people to possible mentors.  Having a team of people outside
of the recruiters that are interested in mentoring new people, and how
these new people can get in touch with them would be cool.

I just think that the Council should take a somewhat active role in
trying to keep things moving.  There is a lot of good work going on, and
people seem to feel they are blocked for some reason in a lot of cases.
The Council should be there so we can keep progress moving forward in
whatever way we can.  Our devs do a lot of good work, and I want to do
my part to make sure they never feel they are hindered from doing that
work, and if they are, figure out how to address that issue.

Hope that helps,

-- 
Mark Loeser
email         -   halcy0n AT gentoo DOT org
email         -   mark AT halcy0n DOT com
web           -   http://www.halcy0n.com

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-dev] My council manifesto
  2010-06-21 19:27     ` Mark Loeser
@ 2010-06-21 19:30       ` Arun Raghavan
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 26+ messages in thread
From: Arun Raghavan @ 2010-06-21 19:30 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev

On 22 June 2010 00:57, Mark Loeser <halcy0n@gentoo.org> wrote:
[...]
> Hope that helps,

Indeed - thanks for the detailed response.

Cheers,
-- 
Arun Raghavan
http://arunraghavan.net/
(Ford_Prefect | Gentoo) & (arunsr | GNOME)



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-dev] Council manifesto of sping
  2010-06-21 18:20   ` Petteri Räty
@ 2010-06-21 21:07     ` Sebastian Pipping
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 26+ messages in thread
From: Sebastian Pipping @ 2010-06-21 21:07 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev

Petteri,


On 06/21/10 20:20, Petteri Räty wrote:
>> My manifesto up here now:
>> http://dev.gentoo.org/~sping/council-manifesto-2010-sping.txt
> 
>> - Building sites
>>   - Active Council
>>   - More direct democracy
>>   - New conflict resolution team (reforming DevRel)
>>   - Ownership and territories
>>   - The two sides of infra
>>   - The Git migration
>>   - Opening up documentation
>>   - Gentoo PR: Database and frequent news
>>   - Internal news (i.e. increasing transparency)
>>   - (Paid external) website re-design
>>   - Introducing templates (e.g. for bug replies)
>>   - Tone and attitude in Gentoo
>>   - Other (minor) things
> 
> How many hours do you expect to use weekly to accomplish all these goals?

I will not be able to do this alone - I need the rest of the council and
Gentoo to team up with me on this, no doubt.

A diploma thesis is coming up soon - that will take time away.  Apart
from that Gentoo is among my top 5 focuses.  The numbers of hours I put
into Gentoo per day will range from 0 to 16 hours.


>> To my understanding the conflict resolution part of DevRel is currently not working effectively.
> 
> If we are not working effectively it's not because of how we are
> organized but due to needing more man power.

As I have mentioned before I respectfully disagree with this statement.


> The good thing is that
> people have offered to help and I am slowly training us new members.

I would be interested in details on how DevRel is training people.

Best,



Sebastian



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Council 2010/2011 - Voting
  2010-06-19 19:56 [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Council 2010/2011 - Voting Roy Bamford
                   ` (4 preceding siblings ...)
  2010-06-21 19:10 ` [gentoo-dev] My council manifesto Mark Loeser
@ 2010-06-21 21:19 ` Mike Frysinger
  2010-07-02 22:32 ` [gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo Council 2010/2011 - Voting - Reminder Roy Bamford
  6 siblings, 0 replies; 26+ messages in thread
From: Mike Frysinger @ 2010-06-21 21:19 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev, infra; +Cc: Roy Bamford, elections

[-- Attachment #1: Type: Text/Plain, Size: 314 bytes --]

On Saturday, June 19, 2010 15:56:03 Roy Bamford wrote:
> Everything is in place to allow voting in the above election commence
> as planned on June 20th at 00:00:00 UTC.
> 
> The polls will remain open until July 3rd 23:59:59 UTC.

the motd/whatever of dev.g.o really should contain active elections
-mike

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-dev] Council manifesto of sping
  2010-06-21 19:25   ` Arun Raghavan
@ 2010-06-21 21:36     ` Sebastian Pipping
  2010-06-22  1:46       ` Brian Harring
                         ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 26+ messages in thread
From: Sebastian Pipping @ 2010-06-21 21:36 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev

Arun,


On 06/21/10 21:25, Arun Raghavan wrote:
>> My manifesto up here now:
>> http://dev.gentoo.org/~sping/council-manifesto-2010-sping.txt
> 
> For all your points where you do not have a concrete proposal of how
> you intend to tackle the problem, could you please elaborate?

please take your time to formulate concrete questions.


> """ (w.r.t. git migration)
> I hope to see Robin integrate me with the conversion process.
> """
> 
> How have you contributed to the effort thus far?

I would like to re-phrase this question to
"how come you are able to help", okay?

I have
- knowledge of Git beyond an average user of Git
- migrated Portage from Subversion to Git
    including explaining fake merges using commit-tree
    to the portage developers [1] and more general essentials
    before that [2]
- helped tommy of sunrise to get his earler multilib fork into
    the Portage repo
- worked with
  - Git hooks
  - Gitosis
  - Gitolite (including its setup)
- studied ciabot integration recently
- read most of gentoo-scm
- exchanged ideas with rbu and idl0r about it

If Robin and I reach a point of consensus on the migration's future I
could work the full rest of this week on the Git migration.
Not because we have elections right now but because I have a bit of
flexibility on the date of my next exam: pushing that a week further is
no problem at the moment.

Best,



Sebastian


[1]
http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-portage-dev/msg_697d7da6aca2012bce8609d59d33a7c8.xml
[2]
http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-portage-dev/msg_14c474fb79ee175a228e42103db9f884.xml



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-dev] Council manifesto of sping
  2010-06-21 21:36     ` Sebastian Pipping
@ 2010-06-22  1:46       ` Brian Harring
  2010-06-22  2:37         ` Sebastian Pipping
  2010-06-22  5:13       ` Arun Raghavan
  2010-06-22  5:15       ` Arun Raghavan
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 26+ messages in thread
From: Brian Harring @ 2010-06-22  1:46 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2429 bytes --]

On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 11:36:50PM +0200, Sebastian Pipping wrote:
> Arun,
> 
> 
> On 06/21/10 21:25, Arun Raghavan wrote:
> >> My manifesto up here now:
> >> http://dev.gentoo.org/~sping/council-manifesto-2010-sping.txt
> > 
> > For all your points where you do not have a concrete proposal of how
> > you intend to tackle the problem, could you please elaborate?
> 
> please take your time to formulate concrete questions.
> 
> 
> > """ (w.r.t. git migration)
> > I hope to see Robin integrate me with the conversion process.
> > """
> > 
> > How have you contributed to the effort thus far?
> 
> I would like to re-phrase this question to
> "how come you are able to help", okay?
> 
> I have
> - knowledge of Git beyond an average user of Git
> - migrated Portage from Subversion to Git
>     including explaining fake merges using commit-tree
>     to the portage developers [1] and more general essentials
>     before that [2]
> - helped tommy of sunrise to get his earler multilib fork into
>     the Portage repo
> - worked with
>   - Git hooks
>   - Gitosis
>   - Gitolite (including its setup)
> - studied ciabot integration recently
> - read most of gentoo-scm
> - exchanged ideas with rbu and idl0r about it

While an interesting list of skills, do you have any that are relevant 
to finishing the cvs->git issues?  I'll refer you to

http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-scm/msg_f827a8dd519e2d831f77bb32895342bb.xml

Your proposed solutions in your manifesto is to just throw out the 
manifest bits that need completion, in the process ignoring the 
infrastructural and security reasons for their existance.  Same goes 
for ignoring the commit hooks chunk for rsync generation (after all, 
we can't just tell every gentoo user that "by the way, we're no longer 
going to update rsync").

I'd be a bit less critical of your offer here and the manifesto 
presented, if it was actually factual and at least a partially 
accurate understanding of the issues outstanding.

At the very least, I suggest you actually have a chat w/ Robin 
directly and get caught up on what the issues are rather than making 
claims about his work that are pretty far off base.

Also please note Arun's actual question was "what have you done to 
help", not "what skills do you have".  There is difference- one I'm 
guessing that is being lost in the language barrier.

~harring

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-dev] Council manifesto of sping
  2010-06-21 16:33 ` [gentoo-dev] Council manifesto of sping Sebastian Pipping
  2010-06-21 18:20   ` Petteri Räty
  2010-06-21 19:25   ` Arun Raghavan
@ 2010-06-22  2:37   ` Alec Warner
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 26+ messages in thread
From: Alec Warner @ 2010-06-22  2:37 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev; +Cc: elections

That is a very audacious vision you have.  I am curious if you have
any priorities set for the list you provided.  At first reading it
appears like you have more work than any one person could complete
(nay, even a skilled council would be hard pressed to finish
everything there.)  My intention is not to disparage you from aiming
high; I am curious if you have a stack-ranked or prioritized list of
goals you think should be completed.

If you had to pick say: the top 5 accomplishments for Gentoo in
2010-2011 what would they be out of your list?

-A

On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 9:33 AM, Sebastian Pipping <sping@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Hello!
>
>
> My manifesto up here now:
> http://dev.gentoo.org/~sping/council-manifesto-2010-sping.txt
>
> Thanks for your vote!
>
> Best,
>
>
>
> Sebastian
>
>



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-dev] Council manifesto of sping
  2010-06-22  1:46       ` Brian Harring
@ 2010-06-22  2:37         ` Sebastian Pipping
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 26+ messages in thread
From: Sebastian Pipping @ 2010-06-22  2:37 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev

On 06/22/10 03:46, Brian Harring wrote:
> Your proposed solutions in your manifesto is to just throw out the 
> manifest bits that need completion, in the process ignoring the 
> infrastructural and security reasons for their existance.  Same goes 
> for ignoring the commit hooks chunk for rsync generation (after all, 
> we can't just tell every gentoo user that "by the way, we're no longer 
> going to update rsync").

The Git migration is taking us 2 years already because it's taken too
far.  We need to look at what's really needed of that now.

I'll speak to Robin before I go into further details here.


> I'd be a bit less critical of your offer here and the manifesto 
> presented, if it was actually factual and at least a partially 
> accurate understanding of the issues outstanding.

I read that as a pretty hard accusation.
Are you referring to the Git migration or the manifesto as a whole?
Please make clear where exactly my manifesto is not factual.


> At the very least, I suggest you actually have a chat w/ Robin 
> directly and get caught up on what the issues are rather than making 
> claims about his work that are pretty far off base.

Earlier today I wrote to him asking for his number to be able to call
him tomorrow.


> Also please note Arun's actual question was "what have you done to 
> help", not "what skills do you have".  There is difference- one I'm 
> guessing that is being lost in the language barrier.

I am aware of that difference.



Sebastian



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-dev] Council manifesto of sping
  2010-06-21 21:36     ` Sebastian Pipping
  2010-06-22  1:46       ` Brian Harring
@ 2010-06-22  5:13       ` Arun Raghavan
  2010-06-22 10:02         ` [gentoo-dev] " Duncan
  2010-06-30  0:45         ` [gentoo-dev] " Sebastian Pipping
  2010-06-22  5:15       ` Arun Raghavan
  2 siblings, 2 replies; 26+ messages in thread
From: Arun Raghavan @ 2010-06-22  5:13 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev

On 22 June 2010 03:06, Sebastian Pipping <sping@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Arun,
>
>
> On 06/21/10 21:25, Arun Raghavan wrote:
>>> My manifesto up here now:
>>> http://dev.gentoo.org/~sping/council-manifesto-2010-sping.txt
>>
>> For all your points where you do not have a concrete proposal of how
>> you intend to tackle the problem, could you please elaborate?
>
> please take your time to formulate concrete questions.

On reading again, you do have suggestions on how you would deal with
most of what you've spoken. The only one that I think could use more
details (other than all the references to "tone" which I think we
should let rest for a while) is "Opening up documentation" - do you
have any ideas for this process that might help with this while
maintaining the quality the docs team has maintained thus far?

As a follow up question, for documentation, PR, the website redesign,
and templates, do you feel that these are tasks that need to be
addressed by council members? Is there anything preventing you from
taking the ball and running with it if you don't get elected into the
council?

And another one for "More direct democracy":

a) How would you decide what questions go up for public vote and which
ones stay with the council?

b) For questions like "- Should Python 3.x be stable?", isn't that for
team leads to decide? And for the council to resolve in case of
conflicts?

c) For questions like "- Should developer X be banned?", would you be
willing to do this if it meant a lot of washing of dirty linen in
public, or protracted flamewars (and other reasons why we have a bunch
of level-headed people in place to deal with this calmly and quietly)?
If no, where would you draw the line? If yes, how would you deal with
the fallout?

Regards,
-- 
Arun Raghavan
http://arunraghavan.net/
(Ford_Prefect | Gentoo) & (arunsr | GNOME)



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-dev] Council manifesto of sping
  2010-06-21 21:36     ` Sebastian Pipping
  2010-06-22  1:46       ` Brian Harring
  2010-06-22  5:13       ` Arun Raghavan
@ 2010-06-22  5:15       ` Arun Raghavan
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 26+ messages in thread
From: Arun Raghavan @ 2010-06-22  5:15 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev

On 22 June 2010 03:06, Sebastian Pipping <sping@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> """ (w.r.t. git migration)
>> I hope to see Robin integrate me with the conversion process.
>> """
>>
>> How have you contributed to the effort thus far?
>
> I would like to re-phrase this question to
> "how come you are able to help", okay?

That is not the question I asked. I would like to know why you have
chosen not to help with the effort so far and have not voiced your
opinion on gentoo-scm which is where the migration has been discussed,
even though it is clearly important to you.

In general, the way to participate in any open source project (and I
believe this holds for a team in Gentoo as well) is not - "You're
doing it wrong, let me show you how". It's a combination of, "How can
I help?" and "Why don't we try to do things this other way?"

Regards,
-- 
Arun Raghavan
http://arunraghavan.net/
(Ford_Prefect | Gentoo) & (arunsr | GNOME)



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread

* [gentoo-dev] Re: Council manifesto of sping
  2010-06-22  5:13       ` Arun Raghavan
@ 2010-06-22 10:02         ` Duncan
  2010-06-22 10:24           ` Arun Raghavan
  2010-06-30  0:45         ` [gentoo-dev] " Sebastian Pipping
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 26+ messages in thread
From: Duncan @ 2010-06-22 10:02 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev

Arun Raghavan posted on Tue, 22 Jun 2010 10:43:42 +0530 as excerpted:

> b) For questions like "- Should Python 3.x be stable?", isn't that for
> team leads to decide? And for the council to resolve in case of
> conflicts?

Wouldn't the point for specifically pointing out python 3.x as an example, 
that there is in fact quite some conflict on it, as demonstrated by the 
threads discussing it right here?  If I'm not mistaken, sping has in fact 
mentioned that as an example in his "tone" thread, as well.  If I read him 
correctly, the implication is that before it got to the level it did, 
council should have voted on it, thus providing a final answer, as an 
alternative to the simmering level of discontent that's not quite at the 
boiling over point, that we seem to have with the situation now.  He does, 
after all, make a strong statement in favor of an "activist" council.

> c) For questions like "- Should developer X be banned?", would you be
> willing to do this if it meant a lot of washing of dirty linen in
> public, or protracted flamewars (and other reasons why we have a bunch
> of level-headed people in place to deal with this calmly and quietly)?
> If no, where would you draw the line? If yes, how would you deal with
> the fallout?

Leaving the question of public or not aside (I've mixed thoughts on that), 
if it /is/ to be public, a list other than -dev is IMO a must.  I'd also 
suggest that it be moderated for non-devs, with a moderator alias to which 
users can write, with any mod-alias-subscribed dev having the authority to 
forward to the list.  A specific mod can volunteer/be-assigned so there's 
"someone at home", with the understanding that other devs may subscribe to 
the mod alias and forward if they wish.

This is based on experience with the council list, which is public but 
read-only (as I think is appropriate) on gmane.  Occasionally, I've 
replied to individual authors, but a moderator alias would be useful there 
as well.  If no one on the mod alias then believes my post (and those of 
other users) worth forwarding to the list, so be it.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Council manifesto of sping
  2010-06-22 10:02         ` [gentoo-dev] " Duncan
@ 2010-06-22 10:24           ` Arun Raghavan
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 26+ messages in thread
From: Arun Raghavan @ 2010-06-22 10:24 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev

On 22 June 2010 15:32, Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> wrote:
> Arun Raghavan posted on Tue, 22 Jun 2010 10:43:42 +0530 as excerpted:
>
>> b) For questions like "- Should Python 3.x be stable?", isn't that for
>> team leads to decide? And for the council to resolve in case of
>> conflicts?
>
> Wouldn't the point for specifically pointing out python 3.x as an example,
> that there is in fact quite some conflict on it, as demonstrated by the
> threads discussing it right here?  If I'm not mistaken, sping has in fact
> mentioned that as an example in his "tone" thread, as well.  If I read him
> correctly, the implication is that before it got to the level it did,
> council should have voted on it, thus providing a final answer, as an
> alternative to the simmering level of discontent that's not quite at the
> boiling over point, that we seem to have with the situation now.  He does,
> after all, make a strong statement in favor of an "activist" council.

I did say questions like this one, not only this one.

Also, the context of that quote was from the bit of the manifesto that
advocates putting such questions to a global vote, which is what I was
enquiring about.

Cheers,
-- 
Arun Raghavan
http://arunraghavan.net/
(Ford_Prefect | Gentoo) & (arunsr | GNOME)



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-dev] Council manifesto of sping
  2010-06-22  5:13       ` Arun Raghavan
  2010-06-22 10:02         ` [gentoo-dev] " Duncan
@ 2010-06-30  0:45         ` Sebastian Pipping
  2010-07-02 14:23           ` Arun Raghavan
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 26+ messages in thread
From: Sebastian Pipping @ 2010-06-30  0:45 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev

Arun,


On 06/22/10 07:13, Arun Raghavan wrote:
> On reading again, you do have suggestions on how you would deal with
> most of what you've spoken. The only one that I think could use more
> details (other than all the references to "tone" which I think we
> should let rest for a while) is "Opening up documentation" - do you
> have any ideas for this process that might help with this while
> maintaining the quality the docs team has maintained thus far?

One way could be allowing everyone to commit to the main documentation
and ensure there's enough review going on.  A sunrise like a approach
with two stages "pre-review" and "reviewed" (i.e. those files served
publically) could work well with two Git branches.


> As a follow up question, for documentation, PR, the website redesign,
> and templates, do you feel that these are tasks that need to be
> addressed by council members? Is there anything preventing you from
> taking the ball and running with it if you don't get elected into the
> council?

Yes, not all of them are exclusive to the council.


> And another one for "More direct democracy":
> 
> a) How would you decide what questions go up for public vote and which
> ones stay with the council?

Good question!  I think a few voices from developers (say three)
requesting a vote should force a global vote.  If the council were
deciding on that, the concept would be useless.  At least that's my
current understanding.


> b) For questions like "- Should Python 3.x be stable?", isn't that for
> team leads to decide? And for the council to resolve in case of
> conflicts?

It's too important to leave it to the Python team alone in my eyes.
Previous threads have shown that consensus is hard to find on Python 3.x
related topics.  A direct vote from all developers would reveal what the
majority really wants for that topic.


> c) For questions like "- Should developer X be banned?", would you be
> willing to do this if it meant a lot of washing of dirty linen in
> public, or protracted flamewars (and other reasons why we have a bunch
> of level-headed people in place to deal with this calmly and quietly)?
> If no, where would you draw the line? If yes, how would you deal with
> the fallout?

I'm not understanding all of that, honestly.
On a part I understood: Solving isues on that front may be worth extra
"noise" as the goal is to noticably improve atmosphere after.
Please help me to understand the rest of your question.

Best,



Sebastian



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-dev] Council manifesto of sping
  2010-06-30  0:45         ` [gentoo-dev] " Sebastian Pipping
@ 2010-07-02 14:23           ` Arun Raghavan
  2010-07-02 15:50             ` Sebastian Pipping
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 26+ messages in thread
From: Arun Raghavan @ 2010-07-02 14:23 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev

Hey Sebastian,

On 30 June 2010 06:15, Sebastian Pipping <sping@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Arun,
[...]
>> And another one for "More direct democracy":
>>
>> a) How would you decide what questions go up for public vote and which
>> ones stay with the council?
>
> Good question!  I think a few voices from developers (say three)
> requesting a vote should force a global vote.  If the council were
> deciding on that, the concept would be useless.  At least that's my
> current understanding.
>
>
>> b) For questions like "- Should Python 3.x be stable?", isn't that for
>> team leads to decide? And for the council to resolve in case of
>> conflicts?
>
> It's too important to leave it to the Python team alone in my eyes.
> Previous threads have shown that consensus is hard to find on Python 3.x
> related topics.  A direct vote from all developers would reveal what the
> majority really wants for that topic.

It is my opinion that dismissing the opinions of the people who are
actually doing the work is not a good way to motivate the same people
(I don't even disagree with you about the Python team's approach to
3.x in the tree, but I disagree with how you think it should be
handled).

>> c) For questions like "- Should developer X be banned?", would you be
>> willing to do this if it meant a lot of washing of dirty linen in
>> public, or protracted flamewars (and other reasons why we have a bunch
>> of level-headed people in place to deal with this calmly and quietly)?
>> If no, where would you draw the line? If yes, how would you deal with
>> the fallout?
>
> I'm not understanding all of that, honestly.
> On a part I understood: Solving isues on that front may be worth extra
> "noise" as the goal is to noticably improve atmosphere after.
> Please help me to understand the rest of your question.

The problem is not noise. The problem is that an issue that needs to
be escalated to Devrel could not be resolved by the involved
developers or the people who were present at the time. Moreover, there
are strong emotions from the devs (and often their friends too), and
people will end up saying things that they may eventually regret.

Dragging this out in public /will/ polarise the community, result in
more public conflict, very likely without a complete picture of the
story on both sides being available. Devrel's purpose is to avoid
this, and I believe this does work (we can debate their efficacy or
how things can improve, but saying it doesn't work is unfair, IMO). I
don't see how your proposal would deal with this fallout.

Cheers,
-- 
Arun Raghavan
http://arunraghavan.net/
(Ford_Prefect | Gentoo) & (arunsr | GNOME)



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-dev] Council manifesto of sping
  2010-07-02 14:23           ` Arun Raghavan
@ 2010-07-02 15:50             ` Sebastian Pipping
  2010-07-02 17:30               ` Nirbheek Chauhan
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 26+ messages in thread
From: Sebastian Pipping @ 2010-07-02 15:50 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev

Arun,


On 07/02/10 16:23, Arun Raghavan wrote:
> The problem is not noise. The problem is that an issue that needs to
> be escalated to Devrel could not be resolved by the involved
> developers or the people who were present at the time. Moreover, there
> are strong emotions from the devs (and often their friends too), and
> people will end up saying things that they may eventually regret.
> 
> Dragging this out in public /will/ polarise the community, result in
> more public conflict, very likely without a complete picture of the
> story on both sides being available. Devrel's purpose is to avoid
> this, and I believe this does work (we can debate their efficacy or
> how things can improve, but saying it doesn't work is unfair, IMO). I
> don't see how your proposal would deal with this fallout.

I think we're mixing up a few things by now:
- What cases should be handled in public, which shouldn't
- Does DevRel work effectively or not
- The special case of banning people

All I want to say right here is that:
- Not everything needs to be handle loudly and public
  (if I made that impression)
- I do believe in need for fundamental changes on DevRel
  (as introduced in a another thread earlier)

For the rest I propose to take this offline.

Best,



Sebastian



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-dev] Council manifesto of sping
  2010-07-02 15:50             ` Sebastian Pipping
@ 2010-07-02 17:30               ` Nirbheek Chauhan
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 26+ messages in thread
From: Nirbheek Chauhan @ 2010-07-02 17:30 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev

On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 9:20 PM, Sebastian Pipping <sping@gentoo.org> wrote:
> I think we're mixing up a few things by now:
> - What cases should be handled in public, which shouldn't
> - Does DevRel work effectively or not
> - The special case of banning people
>
> All I want to say right here is that:
> - Not everything needs to be handle loudly and public
>  (if I made that impression)
> - I do believe in need for fundamental changes on DevRel
>  (as introduced in a another thread earlier)
>
> For the rest I propose to take this offline.
>

I am interested in your viewpoint on the rest as well. If you do
continue this discussion offline, I'd like the results of that to be
reflected in a public way (as v2 of your manifesto perhaps?) so that
me, as well as others who are interested in your view points as a
council nominee are kept up-to-date on them.

Thanks!

-- 
~Nirbheek Chauhan

Gentoo GNOME+Mozilla Team



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread

* [gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo Council 2010/2011 - Voting - Reminder
  2010-06-19 19:56 [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Council 2010/2011 - Voting Roy Bamford
                   ` (5 preceding siblings ...)
  2010-06-21 21:19 ` [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Council 2010/2011 - Voting Mike Frysinger
@ 2010-07-02 22:32 ` Roy Bamford
  6 siblings, 0 replies; 26+ messages in thread
From: Roy Bamford @ 2010-07-02 22:32 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev; +Cc: elections

On 2010.06.19 20:56, Roy Bamford wrote:
> Team,
> 
> Everything is in place to allow voting in the above election commence 
> as planned on June 20th at 00:00:00 UTC.
> 
> The polls will remain open until July 3rd 23:59:59 UTC.
> 
[snip]

Thats about 25 hours from now ... and so far, the turnout is only 29%

-- 
Regards,

Roy Bamford
(Neddyseagoon) a member of
gentoo-ops
forum-mods
trustees




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2010-07-02 22:32 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 26+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2010-06-19 19:56 [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Council 2010/2011 - Voting Roy Bamford
2010-06-19 21:06 ` [gentoo-dev] Manifesto for council election Tony "Chainsaw" Vroon
2010-06-20 11:19 ` [gentoo-dev] My Council manifest Petteri Räty
2010-06-20 13:47 ` [gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo Council 2010/2011 - Voting Roy Bamford
2010-06-21 16:33 ` [gentoo-dev] Council manifesto of sping Sebastian Pipping
2010-06-21 18:20   ` Petteri Räty
2010-06-21 21:07     ` Sebastian Pipping
2010-06-21 19:25   ` Arun Raghavan
2010-06-21 21:36     ` Sebastian Pipping
2010-06-22  1:46       ` Brian Harring
2010-06-22  2:37         ` Sebastian Pipping
2010-06-22  5:13       ` Arun Raghavan
2010-06-22 10:02         ` [gentoo-dev] " Duncan
2010-06-22 10:24           ` Arun Raghavan
2010-06-30  0:45         ` [gentoo-dev] " Sebastian Pipping
2010-07-02 14:23           ` Arun Raghavan
2010-07-02 15:50             ` Sebastian Pipping
2010-07-02 17:30               ` Nirbheek Chauhan
2010-06-22  5:15       ` Arun Raghavan
2010-06-22  2:37   ` Alec Warner
2010-06-21 19:10 ` [gentoo-dev] My council manifesto Mark Loeser
2010-06-21 19:15   ` Arun Raghavan
2010-06-21 19:27     ` Mark Loeser
2010-06-21 19:30       ` Arun Raghavan
2010-06-21 21:19 ` [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Council 2010/2011 - Voting Mike Frysinger
2010-07-02 22:32 ` [gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo Council 2010/2011 - Voting - Reminder Roy Bamford

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