[gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree

[gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree

[Ryan Hill]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 889 bytes --]

Fabio Erculiani wrote:
> [02:31] <Halcy0n> lxnay: we offer all of our work that you base your
> distribution off, and you don't contribute back at all, in any way.
> 
> ^^ This is a really stupid sentence. It seems some of you don't even
> realize how many users we brought to Gentoo, and this is really sad.

For those of you playing along at home, the conversation went something like this:

<lxnay> hey there, i found a whole bunch of broken stuff in your tree
<devs> cool, can you file some reports in bugzilla so we can fix it?
<lxnay> no, i'm too busy and you guys are slow.  give me cvs access.
<devs> uh....  no?
<lxnay> you're stupid.


-- 
fonts, gcc-porting,                               by design, by neglect
mips, treecleaner,                        for a fact or just for effect
wxwidgets @ gentoo     EFFD 380E 047A 4B51 D2BD C64F 8AA8 8346 F9A4 0662


[-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 189 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree

[Fabio Erculiani]

[gio mar 13 2008] [02:50:43] <agaffney>	if you want access to the
tree, find a mentor and go through the recruitment process
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:50:45] <Betelgeuse>	lxnay: Other people have to
live with the changes. no-one can maintain the whole tree single
handed.
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:50:51] <lxnay>	Halcy0n: because I know where to stop
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:51:02] <agaffney>	bullshit
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:51:05] <hparker>	Betelgeuse: Apparently lxnay can
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:51:11] <ferringb>	Betelgeuse: mighty mouse could.
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:51:17] <lxnay>	agaffney: that's what I was trying to do
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:51:24] Entra	Tommy[D] è entrato nel canale
(i=tsbnc@freenet/user/TommyD).
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:51:47] <agaffney>	ferringb: hah
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:52:01] <Halcy0n>	lxnay: again, you are working
in a community environment.  It is not all about you, and there are
people that have much more in depth knowledge about the packages they
maintain than you could.  You want to compare knowledge of GCC with
myself or vapier?  I can tell you right now if you touch glibc or gcc,
we would file a devrel bug immediately.
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:52:09] <agaffney>	lxnay == mighty mouse?
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:52:18] <hparker>	lxnay: If you don't have time
to file bugs, howdahell will you have time for recruitment?
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:52:31] Entra	Maxi è entrato nel canale
(n=maxi@mindfields.own-hero.net).
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:52:35] <lxnay>	agaffney: you like a cow
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:52:40] <lxnay>	agaffney: happy now?
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:52:50] Entra	idl0r è entrato nel canale
(i=idle@unaffiliated/idl0r).
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:52:59] <lxnay>	hparker: I could find time if
this allows me to reduce time
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:53:04] 	 * Halcy0n thinks he needs to go have
another shot of whiskey because this conversation is not making any
sense anymore.
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:53:14] <Betelgeuse>	Time to go to bed.
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:53:17] <hparker>	Halcy0n: Get me one too please, I'm out
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:53:20] Entra	dmwaters è entrato nel canale
(i=dmwaters@freenode/staff/gentoo.dmwaters).
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:53:20] Modalità	ChanServ ha dato privilegi di
operatore del canale a dmwaters.
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:53:24] <Halcy0n>	hparker: Makers work for you?
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:53:29] <hparker>	yup!
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:53:32] <ferringb>	Halcy0n: dibs; still haven't
found my bug
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:53:32] <Halcy0n>	GOt a new bottle I got to crack open :)
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:53:39] <hparker>	;)
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:53:44] Entra	cilly è entrato nel canale
(i=pluto@unaffiliated/cilly).
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:53:56] <Halcy0n>	I alternate between Knob and Makers.
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:53:57] <KingTaco>	flamefest still going on?
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:54:15] <hparker>	dwindling
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:54:16] <Halcy0n>	KingTaco: I wouldn't call it a flamefest.
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:54:25] <agaffney>	lxnay: moooooo
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:54:32] <agaffney>	lxnay: do you really think you
can insult me?
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:54:39] <Halcy0n>	KingTaco: The popcorn didn't
get burnt, it was brought to the perfect temperature.
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:54:41] <agaffney>	Halcy0n: when did it make sense?
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:54:56] <lxnay>	agaffney: I don't think it's
worth it wasting my time insulting you, I've something better to do
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:54:57] <Halcy0n>	agaffney: I'm not sure, but I'm
thinking if I drink more, it might....
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:55:07] <agaffney>	lxnay: oh, burn!
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:55:11] 	 * agaffney cries in the corner
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:55:15] <Halcy0n>	agaffney: you should go die alone.....
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:55:23] <agaffney>	oh noes!!!!1!
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:55:40] <lxnay>	what stupid are you


On 3/13/08, Ryan Hill <dirtyepic@gentoo.org> wrote:
> For those of you playing along at home, the conversation went something like this:
>
>  <lxnay> hey there, i found a whole bunch of broken stuff in your tree
>  <devs> cool, can you file some reports in bugzilla so we can fix it?
>  <lxnay> no, i'm too busy and you guys are slow.  give me cvs access.
>  <devs> uh....  no?
>  <lxnay> you're stupid.
>
>
>
>  --
>  fonts, gcc-porting,                               by design, by neglect
>  mips, treecleaner,                        for a fact or just for effect
>  wxwidgets @ gentoo     EFFD 380E 047A 4B51 D2BD C64F 8AA8 8346 F9A4 0662
>
>
>


-- 
Fabio Erculiani
Information and Communication Technologies Consultant
Sabayon Linux Chief Architect
http://www.sabayonlinux.org
--
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree

[Fabio Erculiani]

What I just need is respect.
I might found around 150-200 bugs on (R)DEPEND. Take 200 on about 6500
packages we have in our repository, if I take 5 minutes each, I'd end
up to take 16 hours. To build my previous list, I took about 30
minutes, it's not that big, but even that small.
So, what I just wanted to try to build up is a fast lane.
I'm sure there's something we could do to better Gentoo.
When I say "I don't have time", it means that I can't waste my time
fighting with some of you just because you have the knife in your hand
and like to make fun of me. I really admire the commitment of some of
you and it's the only thing that led me coming here to talk.

BTW, It's funny to see the difference of attitudes from here and IRC,
let me underline that :) So this is a neutral ground.

-- 
Fabio Erculiani
Information and Communication Technologies Consultant
Sabayon Linux Chief Architect
http://www.sabayonlinux.org
-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree

[Chris Gianelloni]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 676 bytes --]

On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 17:22 +0100, Fabio Erculiani wrote:
> [gio mar 13 2008] [02:54:56] <lxnay>	agaffney: I don't think it's
> worth it wasting my time insulting you, I've something better to do

> [gio mar 13 2008] [02:55:07] <agaffney>	lxnay: oh, burn!
> [gio mar 13 2008] [02:55:11] 	 * agaffney cries in the corner

> [gio mar 13 2008] [02:55:40] <lxnay>	what stupid are you

Thanks for reminding me once again how you like to interact with the
people that you're trying to "help" out.  You wonder why people respond
negatively to your demands and this is how you react to people.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Games Developer

[-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 189 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree

[Fabio Erculiani]

On 3/13/08, Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Thanks for reminding me once again how you like to interact with the
>  people that you're trying to "help" out.  You wonder why people respond
>  negatively to your demands and this is how you react to people.
>
>
>  --
>
> Chris Gianelloni
>  Release Engineering Strategic Lead
>  Games Developer

Oh so the stupid is me. True true...


-- 
Fabio Erculiani
Information and Communication Technologies Consultant
Sabayon Linux Chief Architect
http://www.sabayonlinux.org
-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree

[Rémi Cardona]

Fabio Erculiani a écrit :
> I might found around 150-200 bugs on (R)DEPEND. Take 200 on about 6500
> packages we have in our repository, if I take 5 minutes each, I'd end
> up to take 16 hours.

Then open a reduced number of bugs, say one per portage category that 
has over 20 bugs and group the rest in a one or 2 other bug reports.

Then bug wranglers can start sifting through the list to see if you've 
been smoking crack or not and add relevant herds/arch teams/maintainers 
as CC to those bugs to get them fixed.

I've done this before on a much smaller scale (20+ packages) and others 
have too for other issues (eg. Flameeyes with WANT_AUTO* which started 
out as a huge list of 100+ packages) and this process has always worked 
fine so far.

 > To build my previous list, I took about 30
> minutes, it's not that big, but even that small.
> So, what I just wanted to try to build up is a fast lane.

Bugzilla is still the fastest lane around. We're not the LKML, bugzilla 
_is_ our primary tool.

> When I say "I don't have time", it means that I can't waste my time
> fighting with some of you just because you have the knife in your hand
> and like to make fun of me.

Honestly, this is borderline paranoia. Most of us get bug reports from 
people we've never heard of, living in countries we've never been to, 
with ages and social backgrounds that we don't even know (or care) about.

And I have yet to see a Gentoo dev closing a bug as 
WONTFIXBECAUSEIDONTLIKEYOU. :)

> BTW, It's funny to see the difference of attitudes from here and IRC,
> let me underline that :) So this is a neutral ground.

I'll add that Bugzilla is also very neutral, even more so than mailing 
lists AFAICS.

Cheers,

Rémi
-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree

[Markus Ullmann]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 914 bytes --]

René 'Necoro' Neumann schrieb:
> I'm not a gentoo-dev - and I did not read the whole thread, because it
> was too political for me (do I really have to read all these IRC quotes?).

+1, this stuff belongs to the -project mailinglist

> But I just had an idea for this topic (don't know if anyone had this
> already - or if it is not applicable here), that I want to share:
> 
> Why not try to find someone, who does all the bug filing? - So lxnay can
> find and fix the bugs - and someone else files the bugs and does the
> discussing with the gentoo-devs. Then both sides have what they want. Of
> course, it still takes time to get things into the tree, but this
> shouldn't be a problem :) (I think).

maybe finding someone who works with a bunch of people would do the trick ;)

> Just an idea - please don't eat me, if it's a silly one ^^

/me eats portatoes today ;)

Greetz
-Jokey


[-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 252 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree

[Robin H. Johnson]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2042 bytes --]

On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 05:43:35PM +0100, Fabio Erculiani wrote:
> What I just need is respect.
> I might found around 150-200 bugs on (R)DEPEND. Take 200 on about 6500
> packages we have in our repository, if I take 5 minutes each, I'd end
> up to take 16 hours.
As the others said, you can either group them together, or as I noted
previously, you can use Bugzilla templates. I think the templates are
going to be a better option for you, based on not being able to see what
you meant about lzo, x264-svn and attr.

Hopefully this URL won't break, as I'm deliberately not shortening it to
show you a template:
http://bugs.gentoo.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=Gentoo%20Linux&version=2007.0&component=Applications&rep_platform=All&op_sys=Linux&priority=P2&bug_severity=normal&bug_status=NEW&alias=&bug_file_loc=&short_desc=Please%20stabilize%20&comment=Target%20keywords%3A%20%0D%0A%0D%0ATest%20procedure%3A%20FEATURES%3Dtest%20emerge%20%0D%0A%0D%0ATest%20procedure%3A%20FEATURES%3D-test%20emerge%0D%0A%28compile-test%20only%29&commentprivacy=0&keywords=STABLEREQ&dependson=&blocked=&maketemplate=Remember%20values%20as%20bookmarkable%20template&form_name=enter_bug&assigned_to=robbat2%40gentoo.org

From the advanced bug filing page, write in a lot of the content that
you want, and then use the button on the button 'Remember values as
bookmarkable template'.

If it takes you 5 minutes to file a bunch of near identical bugs,
something is wrong. The above is my core URL for filing stable bugs.
With a little bit of magic, you can pre-populate every field (eg look at
the KEYWORDS+metadata and work out 'CC' automatically), and then just
fill in a little bit of unique description if needed for each one.
The only time it takes me more than 30 seconds to file a bug requesting
stabilization on one of my packages is if I want to write a detailed
testplan.

-- 
Robin Hugh Johnson
Gentoo Linux Developer & Infra Guy
E-Mail     : robbat2@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP   : 11AC BA4F 4778 E3F6 E4ED  F38E B27B 944E 3488 4E85

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 329 bytes --]

[gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree

[davecode]

Well I'm a newcomer to Gentoo and never heard of Sabayon (great project
btw).  Knowing no one here or there, nor any history:

This conversation reminds me of Human Resources.  They always have
'procedures' and 'career tracks.'  Gentoo's chitchat about earning gold
stars and brownie points is giving me HR sickness.  You're asking
Michael Jordan to prove himself on the high school team.

I've read Gentoo's new dev announcements about monkeys and paper
weights.  People with a couple of small open-source projects.  The
monkeys and paper weights get CVS rights.  Then the chief architect of
Sabayon is scotched over bugzilla output?  Please.  That smells like bad
fish.

When someone as expert as this offers help, take it and make him a fast
lane.  He is worth ten bugzillas.  Like a scientist once told me - it
would be inefficient for him to clean his office, they have janitors for
that.

Bugzillas are broken and most Linux people know it.  Ubuntu has hundreds
of bugs sitting around for years and years.  Personally: I have stopped
filing bugzillas at various places.  Projects organized around bugzillas
are inefficient.

Bugzillas are mostly good for non-devs to report bugs.  I know zero
developers who first think to themselves, "ok, I need a project
bugzilla...then I can begin writing code."  That isn't how development
works.

"So you don't have time to file bugs but you would have time to fix
them" is rhetoric.  The issue is ROI.  Why file bugzillas that some
"dev" authority figure may or may not fix in two years, when you can fix
the code yourself?

If you want to call him a Gentoo developer, then do so ASAP, and give
him CVS.  He knows what he is doing and filing bugzillas is a waste of
talent.  If you let him fix his own bugzillas he might go for that.

But wasting his life trying to earn brownie points and respect?  Sad. 
Gentoo needs the manpower and blowing it off with HR excuses is really,
really dumb.  I can hardly believe what I'm reading.  It makes me want
to cry.  Maybe I should help Sabayon deploy on PowerPC instead of
writing to you guys.  I don't really care who misunderstood whom, or who
has an attitude problem.  There needs to be a red carpet for people like
this.  I would not care if he had a 666 on his head.

You need to attract people like this and if bugzilla isn't working,
think up something new.

If you dislike his CVS mods you can always revert, take votes, etc.  But
I say +1 let him have at it.

-- 
http://www.fastmail.fm - A fast, anti-spam email service.

-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree

[Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 449 bytes --]

davecode@nospammail.net writes:

> Then the chief architect of
> Sabayon is scotched over bugzilla output?

Can I declare myself Chief Architect of unieject? Does that give me
right to take and fix others' software without passing through the usual
ways?

Counting titles seems more an HR thing to me than looking at behaviour.

[and I didn't even want to write to this topic]
-- 
Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò
http://blog.flameeyes.eu/

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 188 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree

[Anant Narayanan]

> This conversation reminds me of Human Resources.  They always have
> 'procedures' and 'career tracks.'  Gentoo's chitchat about earning  
> gold
> stars and brownie points is giving me HR sickness.  You're asking
> Michael Jordan to prove himself on the high school team.

You must be American.

I am President of Sabayon.
Give me rights to clobber Gentoo NOW!

Except,
s/Sabayon/United States
s/Gentoo/Iraq

</political-humor>

--
Anant
-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree

[Fabio Erculiani]

On 3/14/08, Pierre-Yves Rofes <py@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
>  You seem to know him pretty well it seems...
>  Come on lxnay, who are you trying to fool here? You think that just by
>  opening an anonymous mail account, we would be dumb enough to not
>  recognize you? You could at least have been a little more subtle and a
>  little less self congratuling, maybe it would have worked, who knows :)
>
>  - --
>  Pierre-Yves Rofes
>  Gentoo Linux Security Team

I hope you were joking :)))

-- 
Fabio Erculiani
Information and Communication Technologies Consultant
Sabayon Linux Chief Architect
http://www.sabayonlinux.org
-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree

[Petteri Räty]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3277 bytes --]

davecode@nospammail.net kirjoitti:
> Well I'm a newcomer to Gentoo and never heard of Sabayon (great project
> btw).  Knowing no one here or there, nor any history:

Never heard of and you say it's a great project?

> 
> This conversation reminds me of Human Resources.  They always have
> 'procedures' and 'career tracks.'  Gentoo's chitchat about earning gold
> stars and brownie points is giving me HR sickness.  You're asking
> Michael Jordan to prove himself on the high school team.
 >

You don't know Sabayon and can evaluate the skills of lxnay?

> 
> I've read Gentoo's new dev announcements about monkeys and paper
> weights.  People with a couple of small open-source projects.  The
> monkeys and paper weights get CVS rights.  Then the chief architect of
> Sabayon is scotched over bugzilla output?  Please.  That smells like bad
> fish.

The new dev announcements are traditionally written in a funky way.

> 
> Bugzillas are mostly good for non-devs to report bugs.  I know zero
> developers who first think to themselves, "ok, I need a project
> bugzilla...then I can begin writing code."  That isn't how development
> works.
 >

But I don't know any major project not having a bug reporting tool.

> 
> "So you don't have time to file bugs but you would have time to fix
> them" is rhetoric.  The issue is ROI.  Why file bugzillas that some
> "dev" authority figure may or may not fix in two years, when you can fix
> the code yourself?
 >

The perception of things rottening in bugzilla hasn't been proven. Here 
are the response times to bug filed by lxnay in 2007 and 2008:

https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160333
  * first response in two days (and marked as WONTFIX but later reopened)
  * interactions could be better on either sides

https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=188024
  * Fixed in two days

https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=192786
  * Fixed in 7 hours after patch submission

https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=193337
  * Your "expert" is missing basic ebuild knowledge --> WORKSFORME
  * 9 minutes

https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=199886
  * little under two months (yes this is too long)

https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=211324
  * Been open a couple of weeks waiting for other changes (borderline)

We do have lots of stuff that rot in bugzilla in many cases they are 
requests for new ebuilds and not problems with existing ebuilds.

> 
> If you want to call him a Gentoo developer, then do so ASAP, and give
> him CVS.  He knows what he is doing and filing bugzillas is a waste of
> talent.  If you let him fix his own bugzillas he might go for that.
> 

There is nothing stopping him from taking the quizzes as any other new 
dev. If he is as good say you he is, answering the quizzes won't take long.

> 
> You need to attract people like this and if bugzilla isn't working,
> think up something new.
> 

Bugzilla isn't the only way new people come in.

 >
> If you dislike his CVS mods you can always revert, take votes, etc.  But
> I say +1 let him have at it.
> 

Very useful after it has already been synced to tons of machines and 
users are hitting our IRC channels with torches.

Regards,
Petteri


[-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 252 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree

[Pierre-Yves Rofes]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

davecode@nospammail.net a écrit :
> Well I'm a newcomer to Gentoo and never heard of Sabayon (great project
> btw). [...]
> 
> When someone as expert as this [...]

>  He is worth ten bugzillas.  [...]

>  He knows what he is doing and filing bugzillas is a waste of
> talent.  [...]

>  There needs to be a red carpet for people like
> this. [...]

You seem to know him pretty well it seems...
Come on lxnay, who are you trying to fool here? You think that just by
opening an anonymous mail account, we would be dumb enough to not
recognize you? You could at least have been a little more subtle and a
little less self congratuling, maybe it would have worked, who knows :)

- --
Pierre-Yves Rofes
Gentoo Linux Security Team
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v2.0.7 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFH2bjAuhJ+ozIKI5gRAkSCAJ4wojl14fhpJSkHUVpFhJ2tDxIZGwCeNVJT
lfKC4xa+C2vbO8mYEZar0RE=
=LnRw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree

[Gilles Dartiguelongue]

I've haven't finished reading this thread so excuse if some points here
have been written already.

 1. You think that because you work everyday with gentoo on your own
variant should automatically grant you CVS access. This is _not_
possible. It has already been said, the only way to get access CVS is to
take on the quizzes and this is for far too many good reasons. If you
can't leave with that, then I'm sorry but imho things won't move on this
front in the foreseeable future.

 2. You don't like the attitude of devs playing with you on #gentoo-dev,
seriously, did you stay on this channel long enough to _not_ find how
devs are interacting together. We play with each other pretty much each
day and no-one takes offense (or at least not too often :D). Please
relax and hear the arguments not the playing.

I probably forgot some points I wanted to expose but these are the roots
of the rest I believe.
-- 
Gilles Dartiguelongue <eva@gentoo.org>
Gentoo

-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree

[Christian Faulhammer]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2097 bytes --]

Hi,

davecode@nospammail.net:
> I've read Gentoo's new dev announcements about monkeys and paper
> weights.  People with a couple of small open-source projects.  The
> monkeys and paper weights get CVS rights.  Then the chief architect of
> Sabayon is scotched over bugzilla output?  Please.  That smells like
> bad fish.

 Sorry, but look up humour in a dictionary of your choice.  The guy
with the paperweight has been a valuable contributor to the Alpha port
including preparing the releases for that architecture.  If you had read
his announcement completely you would have seen what kind of service he
provided for the project...for years!


> When someone as expert as this offers help, take it and make him a
> fast lane.  He is worth ten bugzillas.  Like a scientist once told me
> - it would be inefficient for him to clean his office, they have
> janitors for that.

 No, same rights for everybody.  Even Daniel Robbins (founder of
Gentoo) took the quizees the normal way. when he returned.

> Bugzillas are mostly good for non-devs to report bugs.  I know zero
> developers who first think to themselves, "ok, I need a project
> bugzilla...then I can begin writing code."  That isn't how development
> works.

 As long as somebody cares about the bugs, it works quite well...if
nobody responds to them, any system is useless.
 
> "So you don't have time to file bugs but you would have time to fix
> them" is rhetoric.  The issue is ROI.  Why file bugzillas that some
> "dev" authority figure may or may not fix in two years, when you can
> fix the code yourself?

 Sometimes I do commits in other project's garden...because I need a
bug closed.  I warn them one week at least before doing the actual
change so somebody can stop me.

> If you dislike his CVS mods you can always revert, take votes, etc.
> But I say +1 let him have at it.

 Fine, you can help him take the quiz.

V-L

-- 
Christian Faulhammer, Gentoo Lisp project
<URL:http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/lisp/>, #gentoo-lisp on FreeNode

<URL:http://www.faulhammer.org/>

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 189 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree

[Fabio Erculiani]

I don't really want CVS access neither I care. What I want is just
fixing bugs. I'll try to file a huge bug on all the broken RDEPENDs
I'll found. I'll try to find a free slot during the end of the next
week for the hunting.
Then, we'll see how long it will stay open, just one evidence here:
http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=125728 :)

I've also found a lot of files collisions, especially on scientific
applications. I'll try to file a huge bug for that too, but it'll take
a lot of time.

-- 
Fabio Erculiani
Information and Communication Technologies Consultant
Sabayon Linux Chief Architect
http://www.sabayonlinux.org
-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree

[Bo Ørsted Andresen]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 410 bytes --]

On Friday 14 March 2008 18:16:15 Fabio Erculiani wrote:
> Then, we'll see how long it will stay open, just one evidence here:
> http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=125728 :)

Uhh.. We can do better than that...

http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1343

Seriously though.. if someone had a proper solution implemented it would be 
applied.. Just noone has..

-- 
Bo Andresen
Gentoo KDE Dev

[-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part. --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 189 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree

[Jakub Moc]

Fabio Erculiani napsal(a):
> I'll try to file a huge bug on all the broken RDEPENDs
> I'll found. I'll try to find a free slot during the end of the next
> week for the hunting.

No, please don't. One bug per category is acceptable, no way I'm going 
to CC 150 maintainers on such monster bug and watch the resulting huge 
bugspam landing in bug-wranglers and other people's mailboxes, it's 
extremely annoying, extremely messy and generally not a good way to 
things fixed.


-- 
Best regards,

  Jakub Moc
  mailto:jakub@gentoo.org
  GPG signature:
  http://subkeys.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xCEBA3D9E
  Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95  B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 
3D9E

  ... still no signature   ;)
-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree

[Luca Barbato]

davecode@nospammail.net wrote:
> Well I'm a newcomer to Gentoo and never heard of Sabayon (great project
> btw).  Knowing no one here or there, nor any history:

great never heard project... Smells troll or dumb fan.

> This conversation reminds me of Human Resources.  They always have
> 'procedures' and 'career tracks.'  Gentoo's chitchat about earning gold
> stars and brownie points is giving me HR sickness.  You're asking
> Michael Jordan to prove himself on the high school team.

Empty rhetoric.

> I've read Gentoo's new dev announcements about monkeys and paper
> weights.  People with a couple of small open-source projects.  The
> monkeys and paper weights get CVS rights.  Then the chief architect of
> Sabayon is scotched over bugzilla output?  Please.  That smells like bad
> fish.

No, any people is welcome to contribute to gentoo, as long rules are 
respected. IFF you want to be a dev, you MUST do the quizzes. It takes 
about one day (5 hours) to do them all if you want.

> When someone as expert as this offers help, take it and make him a fast
> lane.

Nobody proved us he is an expert. You shouldn't assume.

> He is worth ten bugzillas.

Are they in the same tune of internets?

> Like a scientist once told me - it would be inefficient for him to clean
> his office, they have janitors for that.

Bad example and non consequential. (BTW: pigs do not count as scientists)

> Bugzillas are broken and most Linux people know it.

Issue tracking is the _ONLY_ way to make sure at least you know what is 
going on.

> Ubuntu has hundreds of bugs sitting around for years and years.

And? We aren't Ubuntu, yet knowing that you have long opened bugs is way 
better than being oblivious about them (and nothing is preventing others 
to propose fixes)

> Personally: I have stopped filing bugzillas at various places.

Please quit as well exploiting our software.

> Projects organized around bugzillas are inefficient.

Care to backing up this claim? Issue tracking is needed.

> Bugzillas are mostly good for non-devs to report bugs.  I know zero
> developers who first think to themselves, "ok, I need a project
> bugzilla...then I can begin writing code."  That isn't how development
> works.

You aren't a developer, for LScube I FIRST set up git roundup(it's an 
issue tracker like bugzilla) and a completely new website, then I 
managed to get mailing lists and irc channel.

> "So you don't have time to file bugs but you would have time to fix
> them" is rhetoric.  The issue is ROI.  Why file bugzillas that some
> "dev" authority figure may or may not fix in two years, when you can fix
> the code yourself?

You aren't following... IFF you want to be a dev you apply for it like 
any other guy interested. IFF you want a bug fixed you report it 
properly using the tools for that: bugzilla.

> If you want to call him a Gentoo developer, then do so ASAP, and give
> him CVS.  He knows what he is doing and filing bugzillas is a waste of
> talent.  If you let him fix his own bugzillas he might go for that.

You aren't supposed to know anything since you:
- are a gentoo newcomer (welcome btw)
- you don't know anything about Sabayon

> Gentoo needs the manpower and blowing it off with HR excuses is really,
> really dumb.

Informed judgments are better, isn't it.

> I can hardly believe what I'm reading.

Me too.

> It makes me want to cry.

Take a tissue.

> Maybe I should help Sabayon deploy on PowerPC instead of writing to you guys.

You are free to do whatever you want.

> I don't really care who misunderstood whom, or who has an attitude problem.
> There needs to be a red carpet for people like this.

NO, he managed to piss off MOST of the developers, he hadn't prove 
himself to us beside being a legend on #gentoo-releng, he exploited our 
work giving headaches back like people lying about their setup on bugzilla.

> I would not care if he had a 666 on his head.

I'm not discussing his fashion tastes.

> You need to attract people like this and if bugzilla isn't working,
> think up something new.

No, we don't need people rushing solutions that may or may not be:
- half backed
- clashing with the Gentoo way (the 3-4 things that make working with 
Gentoo different than working on say... Debian rebuilding apt packages)

> If you dislike his CVS mods you can always revert, take votes, etc.  But
> I say +1 let him have at it.

Doesn't work like that, our cvs must be stable, you have a relatively 
narrow window between syncs to the mirrors and if you make a mistake and 
don't fix it within that time, users will suffer.

lu

-- 

Luca Barbato
Gentoo Council Member
Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC
http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero

-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree

[davecode]

> Come on lxnay, who are you trying to fool here?

Oh for crying out loud, Pierre.  How paranoid!

Luca - questioning Gentoo's HR shouldn't elicit insults about pigs and
trolls.  This behavior suggests you are too easy to piss off in the
first place.  I'm not going to bother with pointwise pseudo-rebuttals
that amount to not listening.

I am an experienced developer.  The proof is in the pudding.  If Gentoo
gains more devs than it loses, and the bugzilla shrinks faster than it
grows, then I will change my mind.  Anyway you're clearly set in your
ways!  Good luck!

Dave

-- 
http://www.fastmail.fm - One of many happy users:
  http://www.fastmail.fm/docs/quotes.html

-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list