[gentoo-dev] [RFC] global useflags

[gentoo-dev] [RFC] global useflags

[Markus Meier]

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Potential candidates (flag-name, count):
server                        13
custom-cflags                 9
gsm                           7
logrotate                     7
java5                         6
hdf5                          6
djvu                          6
multislot                     6
webdav                        6
audacious                     6
cxx                           6
demo                          6
music                         5
fax                           5
editor                        5
keyring                       5
html                          5
css                           5
fontconfig                    5
highlight                     5
tools                         5
zip                           5
fits                          5
nfs                           5
cvs                           5
http                          5


These are my proposals:

hdf5: Adds support for the Hierarchical Data Format v5

djvu: Enable djvu support

cxx: Enable support for C++

fax: Enable fax support

css: Enables ripping of encrypted DVDs

fontconfig: Support for managing custom fonts via media-libs/fontconfig

highlight: Enable source code highlighting

cvs: Enable CVS (Concurrent Versions System) support


Comments are welcome.


Markus

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[gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] global useflags

[Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò]

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Markus Meier <maekke@gentoo.org> writes:

> hdf5: Adds support for the Hierarchical Data Format v5

And what the heck is the Hierarchical data Format v5? :P But I admit
it's still better than "Adds support for HDF v5"...

> djvu: Enable djvu support

Not much more useful than just "djvu". beside the capitalization should
be DjVu (iirc), it would be nice to say at least what DjVu is supposed
to be...

> cxx: Enable support for C++

I'd rather use "Builds support for C++ (bindings, extra libraries, code
generation, ...)"

> css: Enables ripping of encrypted DVDs

Are we sure that nothing intends css as Cascading Style Sheet?

> fontconfig: Support for managing custom fonts via
> media-libs/fontconfig

A bit better, but it's not to manage custom fonts, more like custom
fonts options...

> highlight: Enable source code highlighting

Uh? I don't really want to look what does make that an option worth an
USE flag...

> cvs: Enable CVS (Concurrent Versions System) support

Maybe "integration" rather than "support", if it's always integration
that is enabled...

-- 
Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò
http://farragut.flameeyes.is-a-geek.org/

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] global useflags

[Markus Meier]

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On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 21:13:09 +0100
flameeyes@gmail.com (Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò) wrote:

> Markus Meier <maekke@gentoo.org> writes:
> 
> > hdf5: Adds support for the Hierarchical Data Format v5
> 
> And what the heck is the Hierarchical data Format v5? :P But I admit
> it's still better than "Adds support for HDF v5"...
> 
> > djvu: Enable djvu support
> 
> Not much more useful than just "djvu". beside the capitalization
> should be DjVu (iirc), it would be nice to say at least what DjVu is
> supposed to be...

djvu: Enable support for DjVu (a digital document format with advanced
compression technology and high performance value)

> > cxx: Enable support for C++
> 
> I'd rather use "Builds support for C++ (bindings, extra libraries,
> code generation, ...)"

+1

> > css: Enables ripping of encrypted DVDs
> 
> Are we sure that nothing intends css as Cascading Style Sheet?

app-cdr/k3b:css - Enables ripping of encrypted dvds
dev-python/kaa-metadata:css - Enables ripping/reading of encrypted dvds
media-video/cinelerra-cvs:css - Enable support for encrypted files
through libmpeg3 media-video/undvd:css - Enables ripping of encrypted
dvds media-video/winki:css - Enables ripping of encrypted DVDs

> > fontconfig: Support for managing custom fonts via
> > media-libs/fontconfig
> 
> A bit better, but it's not to manage custom fonts, more like custom
> fonts options...

fontconfig: Support for configuring and customizing font access via
media-libs/fontconfig

> > highlight: Enable source code highlighting
> 
> Uh? I don't really want to look what does make that an option worth an
> USE flag...

I can live without it...

> > cvs: Enable CVS (Concurrent Versions System) support
> 
> Maybe "integration" rather than "support", if it's always integration
> that is enabled...

+1


Thanks for the input.
Markus

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[gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] global useflags

[Duncan]

Markus Meier <maekke@gentoo.org> posted
20080213213836.18f659ef@gentoo.org, excerpted below, on  Wed, 13 Feb 2008
21:38:36 +0100:

> djvu: Enable support for DjVu (a digital document format with advanced
> compression technology and high performance value)

I'm not complaining if this is deemed acceptable, but I thought the idea 
was to keep it to 80 chars, if possible.  If that's the case, perhaps 
leaving it at (a digital document format) might be preferable.  That 
still says at least what it is, so is workable IMO, even if the longer 
description is certainly nicer if the 80 char limit no longer applies.

IOW, just because the proposal above may be too long isn't reason to just 
say it enables support for DjVu, without anything else. =8^)  Knowing 
it's a doc format is much more useful and higher priority than the 
compression/performance stuff, if something has to be left out.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] global useflags

[Paul de Vrieze]

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On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 9:58 AM, Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> wrote:

> Markus Meier <maekke@gentoo.org> posted
> 20080213213836.18f659ef@gentoo.org, excerpted below, on  Wed, 13 Feb 2008
> 21:38:36 +0100:
>
> > djvu: Enable support for DjVu (a digital document format with advanced
> > compression technology and high performance value)
>
> I'm not complaining if this is deemed acceptable, but I thought the idea
> was to keep it to 80 chars, if possible.  If that's the case, perhaps
> leaving it at (a digital document format) might be preferable.  That
> still says at least what it is, so is workable IMO, even if the longer
> description is certainly nicer if the 80 char limit no longer applies.
>

What about:
djvu: support DjVu, a PDF-like document format esp. suited for scanned
documents

-- 
Paul de Vrieze
Researcher
Mail: paul.devrieze@gmail.com
Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net

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[gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] global useflags

[Duncan]

"Paul de Vrieze" <pauldv@gentoo.org> posted
55e0be1b0802142126o56fd209hdc4a32256dfa53c1@mail.gmail.com, excerpted
below, on  Fri, 15 Feb 2008 16:26:57 +1100:

> djvu: support DjVu, a PDF-like document format esp. suited for scanned
> documents

Looks just about perfect, here. =8^)  In contrast, the previous proposal 
may be more technically correct, but also has that unfortunate eyes-glaze-
over effect.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] global useflags

[Peter Volkov]

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В Срд, 13/02/2008 в 21:38 +0100, Markus Meier пишет:
> On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 21:13:09 +0100
> flameeyes@gmail.com (Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò) wrote:
> > > css: Enables ripping of encrypted DVDs
> > 
> > Are we sure that nothing intends css as Cascading Style Sheet?
> 
> app-cdr/k3b:css - Enables ripping of encrypted dvds
> dev-python/kaa-metadata:css - Enables ripping/reading of encrypted dvds
> media-video/cinelerra-cvs:css - Enable support for encrypted files
> through libmpeg3 media-video/undvd:css - Enables ripping of encrypted
> dvds media-video/winki:css - Enables ripping of encrypted DVDs

Seems that this arose from media-libs/libdvdcss... Can we rename this to
dvdcss to make it clear that this have something to do with dvds and not
with web technologies?

-- 
Peter.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] global useflags

[Wulf C. Krueger]

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> Seems that this arose from media-libs/libdvdcss... Can we rename this to
> dvdcss to make it clear that this have something to do with dvds and not
> with web technologies?

To find out what a USE flag is for, we have descriptions.

Which *actual* packages would benefit from changing the current css  
USE flag to something different?

-- 
Best regards, Wulf


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] global useflags

[Peter Volkov]

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В Чтв, 14/02/2008 в 11:33 +0100, Wulf C. Krueger пишет:
> Which *actual* packages would benefit from changing the current css
> USE flag to something different?

Of course, I'm not talking about benefit for packages but about benefit
for users (me included). Technically we could name USE-flags using any
good hash function or consequently incrementing letters/numbers each
time new use flag is required (a,b,c,...) and everything will continue
to work, but... you'll have to `quse -D` every time you forget what 'a'
means. css is a known abbreviation and it's meaning has nothing to do
with dvd writing, so making it more clear is a good thing to do.

-- 
Peter.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] global useflags

[Wulf C. Krueger]

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>> Which *actual* packages would benefit from changing the current  
>> <span index="4" id="message4" name="incorrect"  
>> class="incorrect">css</span>
>> USE flag to something different?
> Of course, I'm not talking about benefit for packages but about benefit
> for users (me included).

Yes, of course, but unless there are packages with some unusual USE  
flag for CSS support, I don't really see your point because our users  
are now used to the "<span index="4" id="message4" name="incorrect"  
class="incorrect">css</span>" USE flag in its current meaning.

For example, k3b has used the "<span index="4" id="message4"  
name="incorrect" class="incorrect">css</span>" USE flag since  
2005-05-12 (i. e. for more than 2 years) and I don't want to confuse  
our users by changing the meaning of existing, widely-used USE flags.

> <span index="4" id="message4" name="incorrect"  
> class="incorrect">css</span> is a known abbreviation and it's  
> meaning has nothing to do
> with dvd writing, so making it more clear is a good thing to do.

Yes - if it hadn't been used for something completely different for years now.

-- 
Best regards, Wulf

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[gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] global useflags

[Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò]

Peter Volkov <pva@gentoo.org> writes:

> Seems that this arose from media-libs/libdvdcss... Can we rename this to
> dvdcss to make it clear that this have something to do with dvds and not
> with web technologies?

I'd actually agree on this, while css is currently just used for Content
Scramble System, I don't think we're going to have that mainstream
anytime soon. This CSS is tied to the DVD technology that people are
trying to replace (also because of the CSS debacle); the Cascading Style
Sheet is, well, not going to disappear anytime soon, in my opinion.

While changing an USE flag on the run is not a nice thing for users, I
think that disambiguating this is a good idea. _While_ users are
supposed to look up USE flags, it's no use to call, for instance, "tar"
the support for Tape Audio Recording, just because there was no "tar"
USE flag before ;)

So +1 from me for css -> dvdcss renaming.

-- 
Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò
http://farragut.flameeyes.is-a-geek.org/

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] global useflags

[Wulf C. Krueger]

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On Thursday, 14. February 2008 22:23:57 Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò wrote:
> While changing an USE flag on the run is not a nice thing for users, I
> think that disambiguating this is a good idea. 

Where is the pressing need to do that? Again, which current package would 
use a re-defined "css" USE flag?

Grepping through use.* I didn't find any package that would benefit from a 
re-definition. 

I don't think any user will expect media-video/undvd, app-cdr/k3b or 
media-video/cinelerra-cvs to support cascading style sheets but rather 
the other CSS stuff. :-)

-- 
Best regards, Wulf

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[gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] global useflags

[Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò]

"Wulf C. Krueger" <philantrop@gentoo.org> writes:

> Where is the pressing need to do that? Again, which current package would 
> use a re-defined "css" USE flag?

No package would use it, and there is no _pressing_ need. I still think
it's nicer to let the user understand. What if we had qt referring to
quicktime, and no qt package just yet? Would it be okay for you not to
be able to understand without looking up the flag if qt referred to
QuickTime or TrollTech's Qt? (being all downcase helps not here,
capitalisation would have helped distinguish between the two).

> I don't think any user will expect media-video/undvd, app-cdr/k3b or 
> media-video/cinelerra-cvs to support cascading style sheets but rather 
> the other CSS stuff. :-)

This assumes that users know that there are _two_ CSS
technologies. Which I sincerely doubt. Note that even Wikipedia defaults
CSS to Cascading Style Sheet. While it can't say anything aboug Gentoo
users, it says a lot on how that particular acronym is perceived among
the general public.

And I see no compelling reason to stick with a bad choice just for the
sake of not renaming an USE flag, when the alternative is to actually
give back sanity to the flag naming.

-- 
Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò
http://farragut.flameeyes.is-a-geek.org/

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[gentoo-dev] Re: Re: [RFC] global useflags

[Steve Long]

Peter Volkov wrote:

> ? ???, 13/02/2008 ? 21:38 +0100, Markus Meier ?????:
>> On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 21:13:09 +0100
>> flameeyes@gmail.com (Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò) wrote:
>> > > css: Enables ripping of encrypted DVDs
>> > 
>> > Are we sure that nothing intends css as Cascading Style Sheet?
>> 
>> app-cdr/k3b:css - Enables ripping of encrypted dvds
>> dev-python/kaa-metadata:css - Enables ripping/reading of encrypted dvds
>> media-video/cinelerra-cvs:css - Enable support for encrypted files
>> through libmpeg3 media-video/undvd:css - Enables ripping of encrypted
>> dvds media-video/winki:css - Enables ripping of encrypted DVDs
> 
> Seems that this arose from media-libs/libdvdcss... Can we rename this to
> dvdcss to make it clear that this have something to do with dvds and not
> with web technologies?
> 
Well if you're going for a widely-known acronym outside Gentoo-land it'd be
decss: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeCSS

I've always wondered why that wasn't used in the first place (not that it
helps now; just found css odd for the same reason as others.)


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[gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] global useflags

[Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò]

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Steve Long <slong@rathaus.eclipse.co.uk> writes:

> Well if you're going for a widely-known acronym outside Gentoo-land it'd be
> decss: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeCSS
>
> I've always wondered why that wasn't used in the first place (not that it
> helps now; just found css odd for the same reason as others.)

Because DeCSS and libdvdcss are not the same thing. It's like calling
"acrobat" the pdf USE flag: yeah Acrobat produces and read PDF, but it's
not Acrobat you're enabling.

libdvdcss uses part of the code of DeCSS to do its work, but it is not
DeCSS proper.

-- 
Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò
http://farragut.flameeyes.is-a-geek.org/

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] global useflags

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

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On Wed, 2008-02-13 at 21:01 +0100, Markus Meier wrote:
> Potential candidates (flag-name, count):
>
> java5                         6

Contrary to last comment about this flag going global. We ( the Gentoo
Java Team ) have decided it will be a global use flag, along with java6.
I will be adding descriptions for both shortly ( today for sure as time
permits ). java7 might be added in the near future as well.

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.
Gentoo/amd64/Java

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[gentoo-dev] [RFC] global useflags

[Markus Meier]

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Potential candidates (flag-name, count):
pch                           18
server                        14
custom-cflags                 9
logrotate                     8
gsm                           7
demo                          7
multislot                     6
audacious                     6
tools                         6
music                         5
fax                           5
smp                           5
editor                        5
html                          5
webdav                        5
nautilus                      5
clisp                         5
hesiod                        5
nfs                           5
qt3support                    5
dxr3                          5
http                          5
web                           5
upnp                          5


My proposals:

pch: Enable precompiled header support for faster compilation at the
expense of disk space and memory (>=sys-devel/gcc-3.4 only)

qt3support: Enable the Qt3Support libraries for Qt4


Markus

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[gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] global useflags

[Steve Long]

server -- never did get a rational explanation of what it breaks. and now
USE defaults work there's simply no excuse imo.
I note openldap in 2008.0 profile uses minimal which has *always* been
acknowledged as the wrong way to build a client installation, despite its
long-standing use in mysql.


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