[gentoo-dev] packages.gentoo.org lives!

[gentoo-dev] packages.gentoo.org lives!

[Robin H. Johnson]

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After a LOT of development, Gentoo Infra is pleased to announce the
return of the new packages.gentoo.org site. The new site is a complete
rewrite.

If you had bookmarks to the old style of URL, please consult the FAQ for
the new form. We are NOT rewriting these URLs:
'/packages/?category=media-sound;name=mp3unicode'
(The new form is '/package/media-sound/mp3unicode').

The site is available at:
http://packages.gentoo.org/

Please read the entire FAQ before asking any questions!
http://packages.gentoo.org/faq/

Thanks to everybody that worked on this:
- jokey, starting this version
- cla, the visual template for this version
- robbat2, way too much coding and infra wrangling

-- 
Robin Hugh Johnson
Gentoo Linux Developer & Infra Guy
E-Mail     : robbat2@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP   : 11AC BA4F 4778 E3F6 E4ED  F38E B27B 944E 3488 4E85

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[gentoo-dev] Re: packages.gentoo.org lives!

[Ryan Hill]

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Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> After a LOT of development, Gentoo Infra is pleased to announce the
> return of the new packages.gentoo.org site. The new site is a complete
> rewrite.

Yay!  Nice work guys.

> Please read the entire FAQ before asking any questions!
> http://packages.gentoo.org/faq/

Does this count as a rendering bug?  Seems to be missing the
black/purple banner bit.

http://dev.gentoo.org/~dirtyepic/misc/pgologo.png


-- 
                        looks like christmas at fifty-five degrees
                                    this latitude weakens my knees
    EFFD 380E 047A 4B51 D2BD  C64F 8AA8 8346 F9A4 0662 (0xF9A40662)


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: packages.gentoo.org lives!

[Robin H. Johnson]

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On Tue, Nov 13, 2007 at 10:14:57PM -0600, Ryan Hill wrote:
> > Please read the entire FAQ before asking any questions!
> > http://packages.gentoo.org/faq/
> Does this count as a rendering bug?  Seems to be missing the
> black/purple banner bit.
> http://dev.gentoo.org/~dirtyepic/misc/pgologo.png
Not a rendering bug per se, but the smallness of your font shows that we
need a much narrower version of the logo.

There isn't meant to be the big black area at the top like, the main
gentoo.org site.

-- 
Robin Hugh Johnson
Gentoo Linux Developer & Infra Guy
E-Mail     : robbat2@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP   : 11AC BA4F 4778 E3F6 E4ED  F38E B27B 944E 3488 4E85

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: packages.gentoo.org lives!

[Josh Saddler]

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Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> There isn't meant to be the big black area at the top like, the main
> gentoo.org site.

But shouldn't there be some sort of area at the top with links to the
other parts of the site, as the other pages do (the navstrip across the
top)? Right now there's zero integration with the gentoo.org site, and
even the old p.g.o had at least minimal integration with the other parts
of our site.

. . . or should this be filed in a p.g.o bug.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: packages.gentoo.org lives!

[Carsten Lohrke]

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On Mittwoch, 14. November 2007, Josh Saddler wrote:
> Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> > There isn't meant to be the big black area at the top like, the main
> > gentoo.org site.
>
> But shouldn't there be some sort of area at the top with links to the
> other parts of the site, as the other pages do (the navstrip across the
> top)?

Yeah, I think so, too. It's also looking ugly the way it is know.


Nevertheless, nice to have p.g.o back. Thanks.


Carsten



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: packages.gentoo.org lives!

[Ioannis Aslanidis]

Thanks a lot for the great work!

I'm just wondering how to search for a specific package. Is that possible?

On Nov 14, 2007 10:55 AM, Carsten Lohrke <carlo@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Mittwoch, 14. November 2007, Josh Saddler wrote:
> > Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> > > There isn't meant to be the big black area at the top like, the main
> > > gentoo.org site.
> >
> > But shouldn't there be some sort of area at the top with links to the
> > other parts of the site, as the other pages do (the navstrip across the
> > top)?
>
> Yeah, I think so, too. It's also looking ugly the way it is know.
>
>
> Nevertheless, nice to have p.g.o back. Thanks.
>
>
> Carsten
>
>
>



-- 
Ioannis Aslanidis

<deathwing00[at]gentoo.org> 0xB9B11F4E
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: packages.gentoo.org lives!

[Donnie Berkholz]

On 11:13 Wed 14 Nov     , Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> Thanks a lot for the great work!
> 
> I'm just wondering how to search for a specific package. Is that possible?

Please read the entire FAQ [1] before asking any questions, as Robin 
said in his original post.

Thanks,
Donnie

1. http://packages.gentoo.org/faq/
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: packages.gentoo.org lives!

[Ioannis Aslanidis]

Good point! Thanks.

Short packages2 TODO list
    This is not the comprehensive version of the TODO list.
    That may be found in the /todo/ directory of the source code.

        * "Search": match a given string against: a substring in
packages names, and description

On Nov 14, 2007 11:22 AM, Donnie Berkholz <dberkholz@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On 11:13 Wed 14 Nov     , Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> > Thanks a lot for the great work!
> >
> > I'm just wondering how to search for a specific package. Is that possible?
>
> Please read the entire FAQ [1] before asking any questions, as Robin
> said in his original post.
>
> Thanks,
> Donnie
>
> 1. http://packages.gentoo.org/faq/
>
> --
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>



-- 
Ioannis Aslanidis

<deathwing00[at]gentoo.org> 0xB9B11F4E
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: packages.gentoo.org lives!

[Robin H. Johnson]

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On Tue, Nov 13, 2007 at 10:12:46PM -0800, Josh Saddler wrote:
> Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> > There isn't meant to be the big black area at the top like, the main
> > gentoo.org site.
> But shouldn't there be some sort of area at the top with links to the
> other parts of the site, as the other pages do (the navstrip across the
> top)? Right now there's zero integration with the gentoo.org site, and
> even the old p.g.o had at least minimal integration with the other parts
> of our site.
> 
> . . . or should this be filed in a p.g.o bug.
File it.

Plenty of the Gentoo services don't have such a navbar on them. I have
all my Gentoo links in my actual browser navbar, so I don't feel they
need to be duplicated on the webpage.

-- 
Robin Hugh Johnson
Gentoo Linux Developer & Infra Guy
E-Mail     : robbat2@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP   : 11AC BA4F 4778 E3F6 E4ED  F38E B27B 944E 3488 4E85

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: packages.gentoo.org lives!

[Josh Saddler]

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Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 13, 2007 at 10:12:46PM -0800, Josh Saddler wrote:
>> Robin H. Johnson wrote:
>>> There isn't meant to be the big black area at the top like, the main
>>> gentoo.org site.
>> But shouldn't there be some sort of area at the top with links to the
>> other parts of the site, as the other pages do (the navstrip across the
>> top)? Right now there's zero integration with the gentoo.org site, and
>> even the old p.g.o had at least minimal integration with the other parts
>> of our site.
>>
>> . . . or should this be filed in a p.g.o bug.
> File it.

Done. See https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=199174



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: packages.gentoo.org lives!

[Anant Narayanan]

> But shouldn't there be some sort of area at the top with links to the
> other parts of the site, as the other pages do (the navstrip across the
> top)? Right now there's zero integration with the gentoo.org site, and
> even the old p.g.o had at least minimal integration with the other parts
> of our site.

I agree with Josh. It would also be nice to have the same footer as on
other Gentoo pages. The current footer extends only across the
right-side portion of the page, which looks a bit weird when you scroll
all the way down.

--
Anant
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-dev] Re: packages.gentoo.org lives!

[Duncan]

Ryan Hill <dirtyepic@gentoo.org> posted fhdso2$u1d$1@ger.gmane.org,
excerpted below, on  Tue, 13 Nov 2007 22:14:57 -0600:

>> Please read the entire FAQ before asking any questions!
>> http://packages.gentoo.org/faq/
> 
> Does this count as a rendering bug?  Seems to be missing the
> black/purple banner bit.
> 
> http://dev.gentoo.org/~dirtyepic/misc/pgologo.png

FWIW, I get a similar effect in Konqueror (3.5.8), so it's not just FF.

Congrats in any case.  I was just missing it the other day, trying to 
figure out what a missing linux-headers revision changelog entry was 
supposed to be before I upgraded the package.  I eventually dug it out of 
viewcvs, but meanwhile, I was missing the packages.gentoo notes.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] packages.gentoo.org lives!

[Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto]

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Hi.

Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> After a LOT of development, Gentoo Infra is pleased to announce the
> return of the new packages.gentoo.org site. The new site is a complete
> rewrite.
> 

Great.

> 
> Thanks to everybody that worked on this:
> - jokey, starting this version
> - cla, the visual template for this version
> - robbat2, way too much coding and infra wrangling
> 

Thank you for all the hard work.

- --
Regards,

Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org
Gentoo- forums / Userrel / SPARC
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Re: [gentoo-dev] packages.gentoo.org lives!

[Duncan Coutts]

On Tue, 2007-11-13 at 18:58 -0800, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> After a LOT of development, Gentoo Infra is pleased to announce the
> return of the new packages.gentoo.org site. The new site is a complete
> rewrite.

Yay! It's soo useful for getting an overview and planning what work we
need to do next in our team. It's really great to have it back.

> Thanks to everybody that worked on this:
> - jokey, starting this version
> - cla, the visual template for this version
> - robbat2, way too much coding and infra wrangling

Thanks folks.

-- 
Duncan Coutts : Gentoo Developer (Haskell team)
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] packages.gentoo.org lives!

[Wernfried Haas]

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On Tue, Nov 13, 2007 at 06:58:24PM -0800, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> Thanks to everybody that worked on this:
> - jokey, starting this version
> - cla, the visual template for this version
> - robbat2, way too much coding and infra wrangling

You guys rock! Thanks for bringing packages.g.o back :-)

cheers,
	Wernfried

-- 
Wernfried Haas (amne) - amne (at) gentoo.org
Gentoo Forums - http://forums.gentoo.org
forum-mods (at) gentoo.org
#gentoo-forums (freenode)

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Re: [gentoo-dev] packages.gentoo.org lives!

[Joe Peterson]

Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> After a LOT of development, Gentoo Infra is pleased to announce the
> return of the new packages.gentoo.org site. The new site is a complete
> rewrite.

Great!  Glad to see it back; thanks for the hard work!  And hey, fbsd is
now considered "exotic"!  I kinda like the ring of that...  :)

One idea for improvement, however, might be to spell the archs
veritcally, thereby easily letting all archs be viewable across one page
(even perhaps by default).  It would help to boast our many arch support.

					-Joe
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-dev] Re: packages.gentoo.org lives!

[Markus Ullmann]

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Joe Peterson schrieb:
> Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> One idea for improvement, however, might be to spell the archs
> veritcally, thereby easily letting all archs be viewable across one page
> (even perhaps by default).  It would help to boast our many arch support.

Heh, well I think the devs are used to this view as that's what you get
when you want to see keywords of packages. also try your suggestion with
packages like wine...

Though I like the spirit of new ideas.

Greetz
-Jokey


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Re: [gentoo-dev] packages.gentoo.org lives!

[Joe Peterson]

(Sorry for the previous reply to announce......)
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Reminder: Set your Reply-To (was Re: [gentoo-dev] packages.gentoo.org lives!)

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Wed, 2007-11-14 at 13:22 -0700, Joe Peterson wrote:
> (Sorry for the previous reply to announce......)

Let me take this opportunity to remind people to set a reply-to when
sending anything to gentoo-dev-announce so people replying will reply to
the proper place.

Thanks,

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation

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Re: Reminder: Set your Reply-To (was Re: [gentoo-dev] packages.gentoo.org lives!)

[Doug Klima]

Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> On Wed, 2007-11-14 at 13:22 -0700, Joe Peterson wrote:
>   
>> (Sorry for the previous reply to announce......)
>>     
>
> Let me take this opportunity to remind people to set a reply-to when
> sending anything to gentoo-dev-announce so people replying will reply to
> the proper place.
>
> Thanks,
>
>   
Robin's e-mail did set the Reply-To. Joe just broke the world.. bad Joe!
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: Reminder: Set your Reply-To (was Re: [gentoo-dev] packages.gentoo.org lives!)

[Joe Peterson]

Doug Klima wrote:
> Robin's e-mail did set the Reply-To. Joe just broke the world.. bad Joe!

Yeah, even reply-to is no match for the mighty "reply all" button!  :)
Giving myself 50 lashes now...

						-Joe
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] packages.gentoo.org lives!

[Bruno]

On Wednesday 14 November 2007 03:58:24 Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> After a LOT of development, Gentoo Infra is pleased to announce the
> return of the new packages.gentoo.org site. The new site is a complete
> rewrite.
>
> If you had bookmarks to the old style of URL, please consult the FAQ for
> the new form. We are NOT rewriting these URLs:
> '/packages/?category=media-sound;name=mp3unicode'
> (The new form is '/package/media-sound/mp3unicode').
>
> The site is available at:
> http://packages.gentoo.org/
>
> Please read the entire FAQ before asking any questions!
> http://packages.gentoo.org/faq/
>
> Thanks to everybody that worked on this:
> - jokey, starting this version
> - cla, the visual template for this version
> - robbat2, way too much coding and infra wrangling

Nice to see packages.g.o coming back!

One item that's missing on TODO section on FAQ is page navigation. (there's 
just a mention of global "count" parameter to change count of entries per 
page)

E.g when looking at categories only the first 'n' items are show and there is 
no mention on the total count.
At a minimum it should display something like:
   showing packages 1-29 out of 127
on page bottom with note that page browsing still has to be implemented.


As mentionned by Ryan the positionning of the logo is quite inappropriate. 
Would it be possible to set a min-width CSS tag on the left column that would 
match the width of the logo in order to prevent the unwanted overlapping?
I assume it's quite common to have pretty small fonts in order to get more 
text visible without scrolling...

Bruno
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] packages.gentoo.org lives!

[Robin H. Johnson]

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On Wed, Nov 14, 2007 at 09:28:14PM +0100, Bruno wrote:
> E.g when looking at categories only the first 'n' items are show and there is 
> no mention on the total count.
> At a minimum it should display something like:
>    showing packages 1-29 out of 127
> on page bottom with note that page browsing still has to be implemented.
There won't be page browsing, mainly because of the heavy caching used.
(if somebody wrote an SQL layer over memcached, there is a lot that
would be simpler)

In any view, the default mode is the most recent $count packages.
If you go to any category, there is a right bar link for
'category-full', that gives you an entire category, ordered
alphabetically.

> As mentionned by Ryan the positionning of the logo is quite inappropriate. 
> Would it be possible to set a min-width CSS tag on the left column that would 
> match the width of the logo in order to prevent the unwanted overlapping?
> I assume it's quite common to have pretty small fonts in order to get more 
> text visible without scrolling...
Having small fonts isn't common, at least not amongst folk that I've
directly observed in usability testing. Having text at sizes that don't
strain the eyes is more common.
CSS 'min-width' isn't usable, because it interferes with the rest of the
layout, and the folks with tiny fonts then have a massive gap between
their text, and the middle column.
What the actual solution is, is a narrower logo. I've been
asking and looking, but have not yet found, a version of the logo
without the spotlight effect on the background.

-- 
Robin Hugh Johnson
Gentoo Linux Developer & Infra Guy
E-Mail     : robbat2@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP   : 11AC BA4F 4778 E3F6 E4ED  F38E B27B 944E 3488 4E85

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[gentoo-dev] Re: packages.gentoo.org lives!

[Ryan Hill]

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Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> Having small fonts isn't common, at least not amongst folk that I've
> directly observed in usability testing. Having text at sizes that don't
> strain the eyes is more common.

It doesn't seem unreasonable that the site be readable despite the font
size.  The logo overlaps the text at any point size under 16, at least in
my browser, which is quite big.  My screenshot was with size 12, which is
what I use everywhere and I'm sure I'm not alone.  I don't know anything
about HTML but is it possible to set a minimum font size or force it to 16?

> CSS 'min-width' isn't usable, because it interferes with the rest of the
> layout, and the folks with tiny fonts then have a massive gap between
> their text, and the middle column.
> What the actual solution is, is a narrower logo. I've been
> asking and looking, but have not yet found, a version of the logo
> without the spotlight effect on the background.

Moving the text in the middle column down so it begins under the logo
would also work, wouldn't it?  All of our other pages (except b.g.o)
have either the plain purple banner or black banner with links across
the top, and it works fine there.  Is there some reason it can't be
done here also?


-- 
                        looks like christmas at fifty-five degrees
                                    this latitude weakens my knees
    EFFD 380E 047A 4B51 D2BD  C64F 8AA8 8346 F9A4 0662 (0xF9A40662)


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: packages.gentoo.org lives!

[Robin H. Johnson]

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On Wed, Nov 14, 2007 at 10:57:04PM -0600, Ryan Hill wrote:
> Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> > Having small fonts isn't common, at least not amongst folk that I've
> > directly observed in usability testing. Having text at sizes that don't
> > strain the eyes is more common.
> It doesn't seem unreasonable that the site be readable despite the font
> size.  The logo overlaps the text at any point size under 16, at least in
> my browser, which is quite big.  My screenshot was with size 12, which is
> what I use everywhere and I'm sure I'm not alone.  I don't know anything
> about HTML but is it possible to set a minimum font size or force it to 16?
DPI (dot pitch to the metric world) makes a big difference here.
Your screenshot, displayed on my system, is hard to read, and I still
have 20/20 eyesight.

For my normal use, I use Bitstream Vera {,Sans,Mon}, 12pt (minimum
enforced), 100dpi, 1586x994 (1680x1050 screen, but my browser is the
aforementioned size).

> Moving the text in the middle column down so it begins under the logo
> would also work, wouldn't it?  All of our other pages (except b.g.o)
> have either the plain purple banner or black banner with links across
> the top, and it works fine there.  Is there some reason it can't be
> done here also?
ViewCVS, glsamaker, bugday, there are plenty that don't have the banner.
For a site that needs to provide dense information, I actually strongly
dislike the waste of space that is the black area at the top of g.o, but
I'll try to come up with a more compact version.

My usability design range in testing this spans: 
1024x768 to 1680x1050, at both 72dpi and 100dpi.
However it seems that I didn't take into account fonts that render
extremely small :-(.

I'll try to make a smaller logo with the SVG that nightmorph pointed
out.

-- 
Robin Hugh Johnson
Gentoo Linux Developer & Infra Guy
E-Mail     : robbat2@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP   : 11AC BA4F 4778 E3F6 E4ED  F38E B27B 944E 3488 4E85

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[gentoo-dev] Re: packages.gentoo.org lives!

[Duncan]

"Robin H. Johnson" <robbat2@gentoo.org> posted
20071115233150.GL18361@curie-int.orbis-terrarum.net, excerpted below, on 
Thu, 15 Nov 2007 15:31:50 -0800:

> My usability design range in testing this spans: 1024x768 to 1680x1050,
> at both 72dpi and 100dpi. However it seems that I didn't take into
> account fonts that render extremely small :-(.

Even 100 DPI is a bit coarse.  Modern CRTs seem to standardize at 120 DPI 
or so, or at least that's what I've seen (21-22", 1600x1200 recommended 
resolution, matching shadow-mask), tho I guess LCDs are only 100 DPI or 
so high end (I just looked up the 30" 2560x1600 Apple Cinemas I've been 
wanting, but that are still out of my price range, 3-4 grand US for a 
pair).

@ that 120 DPI, minimum operational font-point is 8-9 pt or so, here.  I 
have elements of my GUI set to 8 pt, tho I prefer 11 pt for comfortable 
web viewing.  I'd certainly not call 10 pt extremely small -- that's 6-7 
pt! =8^)

And yes, as I said, I have the issue with the logo overrunning the text 
here too. =8^(

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] packages.gentoo.org lives!

[Josh Saddler]

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Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> I've been
> asking and looking, but have not yet found, a version of the logo
> without the spotlight effect on the background.

What about http://www.gentoo.org/images/gentoo-logo.svg ? It's just the
G, without any attached background or halo effect. Convert it to a png
or jpeg as you please, then stick it wherever y'want.



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Re: [gentoo-dev] packages.gentoo.org lives!

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Tuesday 13 November 2007, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> If you had bookmarks to the old style of URL, please consult the FAQ for
> the new form. We are NOT rewriting these URLs:
> '/packages/?category=media-sound;name=mp3unicode'
> (The new form is '/package/media-sound/mp3unicode').

why ?  you've just broken every site out there that links to us in the common 
form you've quoted here.  there's no reason you cant add three lines of code 
to check if the "category" GET variable exists and if so, redirect 
accordingly.
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-dev] packages.gentoo.org lives!

[Robin H. Johnson]

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On Thu, Nov 29, 2007 at 10:20:11AM -0500, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> On Tuesday 13 November 2007, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> > If you had bookmarks to the old style of URL, please consult the FAQ for
> > the new form. We are NOT rewriting these URLs:
> > '/packages/?category=media-sound;name=mp3unicode'
> > (The new form is '/package/media-sound/mp3unicode').
> why ?  you've just broken every site out there that links to us in the common 
> form you've quoted here.  there's no reason you cant add three lines of code 
> to check if the "category" GET variable exists and if so, redirect 
> accordingly.
Because:
- Using the ';' as an argument separator in the old side is not a valid
  query argument separator, and there are URLs out there that have added
  further arguments using it, complicating parsing.
- See also RFC1738: 'Within the <path> and <searchpart> components, "/",
  ";", "?" are reserved.'
- The old site allowed a LOT of varations, all leading to the same
  content, but some of which broke badly.
  /?category=foo&name=bar
  /?category=foo;name=bar
  /?name=bar&category=foo
  /?name=bar;category=foo;this=wasbroken
  /packages/?(one of the above query strings)
  (several more prefixes, all of which gave you the same page)
- Having a single valid URL for a given resource greatly improves cache
  hit rates (and we do use caching heavily on the new site, 60% hit rate
  at the moment, see further down as well).
- The old parsing and variable usage code was the source of multiple
  bugs as well as the security issue that shuttered the site.
- I _want_ old sites to change to using the new form, which I do
  advertise as being permanent resource URLs (as well as being much
  easier to construct, take any "[CAT/]PN[-PF]" and slap it onto the
  base URL, and you are done).

That said, if somebody wants to point me to something decent so that
Squid can rewrite the URLs WITH the query parameters (the built-in squid
stuff seems to ignore them) and hit the cache, and that can add a big
warning at the top of the page, I'd be happy to use it for a transition
period, just like the RSS URLs (which are redirected until January 2008,
but only because they are automated, and not browsed by humans).

On the subject of Squid, it would be extremely useful if it could ignore
some headers and respect others in figuring out if the page is already
in the cache, without stripping the headers from the request (it is
doable with Apache's mod_cache), so that two requests with only a
slightly different User-Agent between them hit the same cache entry,
while different Accept* headers are respected, adn don't hit the same
cache entry?

-- 
Robin Hugh Johnson
Gentoo Linux Developer & Infra Guy
E-Mail     : robbat2@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP   : 11AC BA4F 4778 E3F6 E4ED  F38E B27B 944E 3488 4E85

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Re: [gentoo-dev] packages.gentoo.org lives!

[Thilo Bangert]

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> On the subject of Squid, it would be extremely useful if it could
> ignore some headers and respect others in figuring out if the page is
> already in the cache, without stripping the headers from the request
> (it is doable with Apache's mod_cache), so that two requests with only
> a slightly different User-Agent between them hit the same cache entry,
> while different Accept* headers are respected, adn don't hit the same
> cache entry?

have you looked at www-servers/varnish - appears to be the new kid on the 
block for this kind of stuff (http acceleration that is)...

the stuff you mention seems to be pretty trivial to setup in varnish. 
(including rewrites of old style URLs - if i am not mistaken).

kind regards
Thilo

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Re: [gentoo-dev] packages.gentoo.org lives!

[Jan Kundrát]

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Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> - Using the ';' as an argument separator in the old side is not a valid
>   query argument separator, and there are URLs out there that have added
>   further arguments using it, complicating parsing.

What is source of your definition of "valid query argument separator"?

> - See also RFC1738: 'Within the <path> and <searchpart> components, "/",
>   ";", "?" are reserved.'

My copy of RFC1738 says (end of section 2.2):

   Many URL schemes reserve certain characters for a special meaning:
   their appearance in the scheme-specific part of the URL has a
   designated semantics. If the character corresponding to an octet is
   reserved in a scheme, the octet must be encoded.  The characters ";",
   "/", "?", ":", "@", "=" and "&" are the characters which may be
   reserved for special meaning within a scheme. No other characters may
   be reserved within a scheme.

I wasn't able to find your quote in that file.

> - Having a single valid URL for a given resource greatly improves cache
>   hit rates (and we do use caching heavily on the new site, 60% hit rate
>   at the moment, see further down as well).

Redirecting clients to new URLs would give you perfect caching as well.

> - The old parsing and variable usage code was the source of multiple
>   bugs as well as the security issue that shuttered the site.

Only because it passed the raw, unescaped values directly to shell,
which is of course badly broken.

> - I _want_ old sites to change to using the new form, which I do
>   advertise as being permanent resource URLs (as well as being much
>   easier to construct, take any "[CAT/]PN[-PF]" and slap it onto the
>   base URL, and you are done).

Which isn't a reason for breaking old links, IMHO.

> That said, if somebody wants to point me to something decent so that
> Squid can rewrite the URLs WITH the query parameters (the built-in squid
> stuff seems to ignore them) and hit the cache, and that can add a big
> warning at the top of the page, I'd be happy to use it for a transition
> period, just like the RSS URLs (which are redirected until January 2008,
> but only because they are automated, and not browsed by humans).

Now that's something that sound reasonable. Why limit the period and
don't provide it forever?

Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate your (and others') efforts on
getting p.g.o back up again, but I don't agree at all with reasons given
in this mail. If you said "because I didn't have time to do that" or
"I'm not interested in that", I wouldn't argue (but might try to get in
touch with you and provide patches fixing the stuff).

Cheers,
-jkt

-- 
cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth


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Re: [gentoo-dev] packages.gentoo.org lives!

[Robin H. Johnson]

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On Fri, Nov 30, 2007 at 10:11:31AM +0100, Jan Kundr?t wrote:
> > - See also RFC1738: 'Within the <path> and <searchpart> components, "/",
> >   ";", "?" are reserved.'
> My copy of RFC1738 says (end of section 2.2):
...
> I wasn't able to find your quote in that file.
My quote was from the first sentence of RFC1738, sec 3.3 (HTTP), para 4.

> What is source of your definition of "valid query argument separator"?
<searchpath> is also better defined in RFC2396, section 3.4:
   Within a query component, the characters ";", "/", "?", ":", "@",
   "&", "=", "+", ",", and "$" are reserved.
Reserved because they have special meanings.

> > - Having a single valid URL for a given resource greatly improves cache
> >   hit rates (and we do use caching heavily on the new site, 60% hit rate
> >   at the moment, see further down as well).
> Redirecting clients to new URLs would give you perfect caching as well.
That's why I say i'm willing to do redirection at the cache level.
I do NOT want lots of users with old links to hit the actually web application
if it's just going to redirect all of them to a page that is already in the
cache.

> > - The old parsing and variable usage code was the source of multiple
> >   bugs as well as the security issue that shuttered the site.
> Only because it passed the raw, unescaped values directly to shell,
> which is of course badly broken.
Have a look at the recent discussion about HTML5 issues
(http://www.crockford.com/html/), which also applies to web applications:
"HTML 5 is strict in the formulation of HTML entities. In the past, some
browsers have been too forgiving of malformed entities, exposing users to
security exploits. Browsers should not perform heroics to try to make bad
content displayable. Such heroics result in security vulnerabilities."

> > - I _want_ old sites to change to using the new form, which I do
> >   advertise as being permanent resource URLs (as well as being much
> >   easier to construct, take any "[CAT/]PN[-PF]" and slap it onto the
> >   base URL, and you are done).
> Which isn't a reason for breaking old links, IMHO.
Visitors to the old /ebuilds/ or /packages/ links get a redirect to the
frontpage. While that isn't the content they were after, it's find to help them
find it.

> > That said, if somebody wants to point me to something decent so that
> > Squid can rewrite the URLs WITH the query parameters (the built-in squid
> > stuff seems to ignore them) and hit the cache, and that can add a big
> > warning at the top of the page, I'd be happy to use it for a transition
> > period, just like the RSS URLs (which are redirected until January 2008,
> > but only because they are automated, and not browsed by humans).
> Now that's something that sound reasonable. Why limit the period and
> don't provide it forever?
Time limited to force everybody to move over, and to not have to support
the redirections for the old version of the site forever, when they
weren't advertised as permanent URLs.

I did a quick hack up of some statistics, and I see that only 6.7% (5001 out of
(69434+5001)) of the overall visitors were arriving at the old locations and
not receiving the content they were originally interested in.

Based on these stats, I'd say we are doing well in getting users to
update their links for the new site already, since it's been up for 2
weeks now.

Successful page loads (2xx, 304), by section, for November 29th.
     60 /verbump
    114 /newpackage
    167 /faq
    645 /robots.txt
    779 /categories
   1037 /arch
   2348 /category
   3329 /favicon.ico
   9084 /
   9292 /media
  20491 /package
  35354 /feed
-----------------------------
  69434 Total of data pages (no robots, css, images, favicon)
  13266 Total of rotos, images, favicon.

Failed page loads (4xx, 5xx, 3xx excluding 304), by section and code, for
November 29th. Slew of 404 codes for PHP exploits excluded, and grouped by 
how it was handled:
- Specific redirect for usage of an old RSS path:
     25 /feed 301
     91 /archs 301
- Redirected because requested object not found (invalid package, etc):
     25 /arch 302 
     30 /category 302
     44 /feed 406
    164 /feed 302
    632 /package 302
- Error or general redirect for an old URL:
     11 /similar 404
     22 /main 404
     24 ///x86%20stable 404
     44 /daily 404
    222 /search 404
    347 /images 404 (excluded from total)
   2096 /ebuilds 302
   2582 /packages 302
-----------------------------
   5001 Total (no images)

-- 
Robin Hugh Johnson
Gentoo Linux Developer & Infra Guy
E-Mail     : robbat2@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP   : 11AC BA4F 4778 E3F6 E4ED  F38E B27B 944E 3488 4E85

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Re: [gentoo-dev] packages.gentoo.org lives!

[Jan Kundrát]

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Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> My quote was from the first sentence of RFC1738, sec 3.3 (HTTP), para 4.

Missed that, sorry.

>> Redirecting clients to new URLs would give you perfect caching as well.
> That's why I say i'm willing to do redirection at the cache level.
> I do NOT want lots of users with old links to hit the actually web application
> if it's just going to redirect all of them to a page that is already in the
> cache.

I thought you were doing caching/redirects on a service that sits before
the real webapp .

>>> - The old parsing and variable usage code was the source of multiple
>>>   bugs as well as the security issue that shuttered the site.
>> Only because it passed the raw, unescaped values directly to shell,
>> which is of course badly broken.
> Have a look at the recent discussion about HTML5 issues
> (http://www.crockford.com/html/), which also applies to web applications:
> "HTML 5 is strict in the formulation of HTML entities. In the past, some
> browsers have been too forgiving of malformed entities, exposing users to
> security exploits. Browsers should not perform heroics to try to make bad
> content displayable. Such heroics result in security vulnerabilities."

I can't follow this one -- how are broken browsers related to
non-standard URLs? Why is an attempt to invent a competitive standard to
XHTML related to URLs?

>> Now that's something that sound reasonable. Why limit the period and
>> don't provide it forever?
> Time limited to force everybody to move over, and to not have to support
> the redirections for the old version of the site forever, when they
> weren't advertised as permanent URLs.

My question could be re-phrased as "why don't keep those redirects", but
you did the work, so you decide how to run it and I have no problems
with that :).

> I did a quick hack up of some statistics, and I see that only 6.7% (5001 out of
> (69434+5001)) of the overall visitors were arriving at the old locations and
> not receiving the content they were originally interested in.

Fine with me, thanks for your answers and all the work.

Cheers,
-jkt

-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] packages.gentoo.org lives!

[Alec Warner]

> Now that's something that sound reasonable. Why limit the period and
> don't provide it forever?

To comment slightly here:

Forever and Unlimited are always just dirty lies.  Don't make promises
you can't keep.

To be fair even some of Robin's comments are odd, mentioning
'permanent urls'.  Sure because in the future /foo/bar/baz/ will
always work *wink wink*.

The point here is that Robin (and Jokey, others?) have put forth a
commendable effort to serve (by Robin's numbers) 93% of all customers
effectively over a complete rewrite of an application and thats not
bad service (however much you wish it was 100%).

To comment from a sysadmin's perspective; just because it's
technically possible to do X, doesn't make X a good choice,
particularly coming from the guy who has to run the application rather
than just write the code.

-Alec
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