[gentoo-dev] lame use flag, local to global

[gentoo-dev] lame use flag, local to global

[Steve Dibb]

The little lame use flag has started showing up more in local use flags, 
and all for the same purpose, MP3 support using LAME libraries.  I vote 
we move it into a global use flag.  Any objections, let me know.

$ quse -D lame
  local:lame:media-libs/libquicktime: Support LAME mp3 encoding
  local:lame:media-libs/mlt: Support LAME mp3 encoding
  local:lame:media-sound/abcde: Support LAME mp3 encoding
  local:lame:media-sound/gnusound: Enable lame support
  local:lame:media-video/mpeg4ip: Support LAME mp3 encoding in the 
server/mp4live

Steve
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Re: [gentoo-dev] lame use flag, local to global

[Mart Raudsepp]

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On T, 2007-10-09 at 21:03 -0600, Steve Dibb wrote:
> The little lame use flag has started showing up more in local use flags, 
> and all for the same purpose, MP3 support using LAME libraries.  I vote 
> we move it into a global use flag.  Any objections, let me know.
> 
> $ quse -D lame
>   local:lame:media-libs/libquicktime: Support LAME mp3 encoding
>   local:lame:media-libs/mlt: Support LAME mp3 encoding
>   local:lame:media-sound/abcde: Support LAME mp3 encoding
>   local:lame:media-sound/gnusound: Enable lame support
>   local:lame:media-video/mpeg4ip: Support LAME mp3 encoding in the 
> server/mp4live

Any reason to not use something like mp3enc flag instead at that point?
mp3 USE flag is already global, and appears to mean mp3 decoding, so how
about a general mp3 encoding USE flag? I guess merging decoding and
encoding behind the same USE flag might be an option too.


-- 
Mart Raudsepp
Gentoo Developer
Mail: leio@gentoo.org
Weblog: http://planet.gentoo.org/developers/leio

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Re: [gentoo-dev] lame use flag, local to global

[Steve Dibb]

Mart Raudsepp wrote:
> On T, 2007-10-09 at 21:03 -0600, Steve Dibb wrote:
>> The little lame use flag has started showing up more in local use flags, 
>> and all for the same purpose, MP3 support using LAME libraries.  I vote 
>> we move it into a global use flag.  Any objections, let me know.
>>
>> $ quse -D lame
>>   local:lame:media-libs/libquicktime: Support LAME mp3 encoding
>>   local:lame:media-libs/mlt: Support LAME mp3 encoding
>>   local:lame:media-sound/abcde: Support LAME mp3 encoding
>>   local:lame:media-sound/gnusound: Enable lame support
>>   local:lame:media-video/mpeg4ip: Support LAME mp3 encoding in the 
>> server/mp4live
> 
> Any reason to not use something like mp3enc flag instead at that point?
> mp3 USE flag is already global, and appears to mean mp3 decoding, so how
> about a general mp3 encoding USE flag? I guess merging decoding and
> encoding behind the same USE flag might be an option too.
> 

Ah, I knew this question was gonna come up, should have addresed it 
first time around.

The reason we have mp3 and lame use flag is because there is more than 
one mp3 encoder.  In almost every case of the use flag being applied 
above, there is already support for another mp3 codec (ffmpeg).  So, 
lame adds support for lame, not for mp3, which is also provided.

When there is just one mp3 codec used in an ebuild, then it makes sense 
to use just the mp3 use flag.

Steve
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[gentoo-dev] Re: lame use flag, local to global

[Duncan]

Steve Dibb <beandog@gentoo.org> posted 470CD9B5.3000706@gentoo.org,
excerpted below, on  Wed, 10 Oct 2007 07:55:01 -0600:

> The reason we have mp3 and lame use flag is because there is more than
> one mp3 encoder.  In almost every case of the use flag being applied
> above, there is already support for another mp3 codec (ffmpeg).  So,
> lame adds support for lame, not for mp3, which is also provided.

In that case, shouldn't the description mention that?  Something like:

MP3 encoding support using LAME (as opposed to ffmpeg)

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

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[gentoo-dev] Re: lame use flag, local to global

[Steve Long]

Duncan wrote:

> Steve Dibb <beandog@gentoo.org> posted 470CD9B5.3000706@gentoo.org,
> excerpted below, on  Wed, 10 Oct 2007 07:55:01 -0600:
> 
>> The reason we have mp3 and lame use flag is because there is more than
>> one mp3 encoder.  In almost every case of the use flag being applied
>> above, there is already support for another mp3 codec (ffmpeg).  So,
>> lame adds support for lame, not for mp3, which is also provided.
> 
> In that case, shouldn't the description mention that?  Something like:
> 
> MP3 encoding support using LAME (as opposed to ffmpeg)
> 
What about when the next one gets added-- would it need to say "as opposed
to ffmpeg or lame"?

I agree where there's a choice, the ebuild should offer lame or ffmpeg or
w/e, and where not simply mp3 (along with the encode/decode being
orthogonal.)


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: lame use flag, local to global

[Marijn Schouten (hkBst)]

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Steve Long wrote:
> Duncan wrote:
> 
>> Steve Dibb <beandog@gentoo.org> posted 470CD9B5.3000706@gentoo.org,
>> excerpted below, on  Wed, 10 Oct 2007 07:55:01 -0600:
>>
>>> The reason we have mp3 and lame use flag is because there is more than
>>> one mp3 encoder.  In almost every case of the use flag being applied
>>> above, there is already support for another mp3 codec (ffmpeg).  So,
>>> lame adds support for lame, not for mp3, which is also provided.
>> In that case, shouldn't the description mention that?  Something like:
>>
>> MP3 encoding support using LAME (as opposed to ffmpeg)
>>
> What about when the next one gets added-- would it need to say "as opposed
> to ffmpeg or lame"?
> 
> I agree where there's a choice, the ebuild should offer lame or ffmpeg or
> w/e, and where not simply mp3 (along with the encode/decode being
> orthogonal.)

what about mp3=lame or mp3=ffmpeg? This will also be easily extendable when
the next implementations comes along (mp3=newmp3lib).

Marijn

- --
Marijn Schouten (hkBst), Gentoo Lisp project
<http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/lisp/>, #gentoo-lisp on FreeNode
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[gentoo-dev] Re: lame use flag, local to global

[Duncan]

"Marijn Schouten (hkBst)" <hkBst@gentoo.org> posted
470F4DF2.8020205@gentoo.org, excerpted below, on  Fri, 12 Oct 2007
12:35:30 +0200:

> what about mp3=lame or mp3=ffmpeg? This will also be easily extendable
> when the next implementations comes along (mp3=newmp3lib).

I gotta admit... I didn't quite understand the practical effect of that N-
way USE flag thing until now, maybe 'cause I was rather sleep deprived 
when I was trying to make sense of it, but this example even *I* can 
understand! =8^)

IOW, thanks. =8^)

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

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[gentoo-dev] Re: lame use flag, local to global

[Duncan]

Steve Long <slong@rathaus.eclipse.co.uk> posted
fen3qr$lu6$1@sea.gmane.org, excerpted below, on  Fri, 12 Oct 2007 07:26:12
+0100:

>> In that case, shouldn't the description mention that?  Something like:
>> 
>> MP3 encoding support using LAME (as opposed to ffmpeg)
>> 
> What about when the next one gets added-- would it need to say "as
> opposed to ffmpeg or lame"?

Good point.  However, my minor complaint with USE flags is that they too 
often don't really say what the USE flag actually does.  In this case as-
is, the implication is that with -lame, there's no encoding support, when 
the general case is that there's still encoding support, but from 
something else (ffmpeg).  Ideally, the description isn't so vague as to 
leave the user with the wrong impression, or having to dig into the 
ebuild itself to find out what the practical effect is.

So something like:

Support LAME as mp3 encoder (see ffmpeg also)

Then ideally, if a package supported both encoders, both would be flags, 
and if possible, support for both would be built if both USE flags were 
enabled.  That's a bit more expandable, altho it still mentions ffmpeg.

Making it generic "(other encoders may also be supported)" might be 
better in some ways, but isn't as helpful in others.  IMO, the ffmpeg 
reference is more helpful, and the mention of ffmpeg could be expanded if 
other options become popular enough to warrant it.


What I'd /really/ like would be a simple way to list what each flag does 
in a particular package, sort of like what use.local sometimes does now, 
if the description is specific enough, but for global flags as well.  
Take USE=perl.  Sure, it supports perl, but is it perl bindings, or 
additional user scripts in perl, or documentation for perl devs, or ???  
A use.local.desc (or whatever) file listing every package with the flag, 
and what the flag actually does in that package in practical terms, would 
sure be useful! =8^)  Of course, being a separate file, it'd be difficult 
to keep up to date.  Perhaps a better solution might be an IUSE_DESC 
variable that every ebuild and eclass could (and would eventually be 
required to) populate.  Then it's metadata for the package kept right in 
the ebuild/eclass, where it's easy to keep up to date when the package 
itself changes.  Then all we'd need would be a parsing tool for that 
info... euse could be expanded to grab it if --verbose is set, perhaps, 
and life would be /so/ much easier, at least for /some/ users. =8^)

Yes, I know the chances of it happening would be better if I were to 
become a dev and volunteer to help with all the updates, since it's my 
itch I want scratched.  Maybe it'll happen someday.  In the mean time... 
maybe I can spread the itch. =8^)

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: lame use flag, local to global

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Fri, 2007-10-12 at 07:26 +0100, Steve Long wrote:
> Duncan wrote:
> 
> > Steve Dibb <beandog@gentoo.org> posted 470CD9B5.3000706@gentoo.org,
> > excerpted below, on  Wed, 10 Oct 2007 07:55:01 -0600:
> > 
> >> The reason we have mp3 and lame use flag is because there is more than
> >> one mp3 encoder.  In almost every case of the use flag being applied
> >> above, there is already support for another mp3 codec (ffmpeg).  So,
> >> lame adds support for lame, not for mp3, which is also provided.
> > 
> > In that case, shouldn't the description mention that?  Something like:
> > 
> > MP3 encoding support using LAME (as opposed to ffmpeg)
> > 
> What about when the next one gets added-- would it need to say "as opposed
> to ffmpeg or lame"?
> 
> I agree where there's a choice, the ebuild should offer lame or ffmpeg or
> w/e, and where not simply mp3 (along with the encode/decode being
> orthogonal.)

How about:

Prefer using LAME for MP3 encoding support

It doesn't mention anything else, so it'll work in all cases.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation

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[gentoo-dev] Re: lame use flag, local to global

[Duncan]

Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@gentoo.org> posted
1192234974.22855.0.camel@inertia.twi-31o2.org, excerpted below, on  Fri,
12 Oct 2007 17:22:54 -0700:

> Steve Long wrote:
>> Duncan wrote:
>> > Steve Dibb posted:
>> > 
>> >> there is more than one mp3 encoder.
>> > 
>> > [S]houldn't the description mention that?
>> 
> How about:
> 
> Prefer using LAME for MP3 encoding support
> 
> It doesn't mention anything else, so it'll work in all cases.

WORKSFORME =8^)

-- 
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"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: lame use flag, local to global

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Sat, 2007-10-13 at 10:37 +0000, Duncan wrote:
> Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@gentoo.org> posted
> 1192234974.22855.0.camel@inertia.twi-31o2.org, excerpted below, on  Fri,
> 12 Oct 2007 17:22:54 -0700:
> 
> > Steve Long wrote:
> >> Duncan wrote:
> >> > Steve Dibb posted:
> >> > 
> >> >> there is more than one mp3 encoder.
> >> > 
> >> > [S]houldn't the description mention that?
> >> 
> > How about:
> > 
> > Prefer using LAME for MP3 encoding support
> > 
> > It doesn't mention anything else, so it'll work in all cases.
> 
> WORKSFORME =8^)

InCVS... :P

I've gone ahead and changed this.  It isn't a harmful change, so I just
went ahead and did it.  Enjoy your newly modified description.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation

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[gentoo-dev] Re: Re: lame use flag, local to global

[Steve Long]

Chris Gianelloni wrote:

> On Sat, 2007-10-13 at 10:37 +0000, Duncan wrote:
>> Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@gentoo.org> posted
>> 1192234974.22855.0.camel@inertia.twi-31o2.org, excerpted below, on  Fri,
>> 12 Oct 2007 17:22:54 -0700:
>> 
>> > Steve Long wrote:
>> >> Duncan wrote:
>> >> > Steve Dibb posted:
>> >> > 
>> >> >> there is more than one mp3 encoder.
>> >> > 
>> >> > [S]houldn't the description mention that?
>> >> 
>> > How about:
>> > 
>> > Prefer using LAME for MP3 encoding support
>> > 
>> > It doesn't mention anything else, so it'll work in all cases.
>> 
>> WORKSFORME =8^)
> 
> InCVS... :P
> 
> I've gone ahead and changed this.  It isn't a harmful change, so I just
> went ahead and did it.  Enjoy your newly modified description.
> 
Yay! :-) I like the idea of the metadata addition (IUSE_DESC) Duncan
mentioned as well, but I don't know how much work it would entail. Flags
can have such varying effects, so it does strike me as very useful
documentation, for maintenance as well as end-users.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] lame use flag, local to global

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Wed, 2007-10-10 at 07:55 -0600, Steve Dibb wrote:
> Mart Raudsepp wrote:
> > On T, 2007-10-09 at 21:03 -0600, Steve Dibb wrote:
> >> The little lame use flag has started showing up more in local use flags, 
> >> and all for the same purpose, MP3 support using LAME libraries.  I vote 
> >> we move it into a global use flag.  Any objections, let me know.
> >>
> >> $ quse -D lame
> >>   local:lame:media-libs/libquicktime: Support LAME mp3 encoding
> >>   local:lame:media-libs/mlt: Support LAME mp3 encoding
> >>   local:lame:media-sound/abcde: Support LAME mp3 encoding
> >>   local:lame:media-sound/gnusound: Enable lame support
> >>   local:lame:media-video/mpeg4ip: Support LAME mp3 encoding in the 
> >> server/mp4live
> > 
> > Any reason to not use something like mp3enc flag instead at that point?
> > mp3 USE flag is already global, and appears to mean mp3 decoding, so how
> > about a general mp3 encoding USE flag? I guess merging decoding and
> > encoding behind the same USE flag might be an option too.
> > 
> 
> Ah, I knew this question was gonna come up, should have addresed it 
> first time around.
> 
> The reason we have mp3 and lame use flag is because there is more than 
> one mp3 encoder.  In almost every case of the use flag being applied 
> above, there is already support for another mp3 codec (ffmpeg).  So, 
> lame adds support for lame, not for mp3, which is also provided.
> 
> When there is just one mp3 codec used in an ebuild, then it makes sense 
> to use just the mp3 use flag.

Actually, the encode USE flag makes more sense, if encoding support is
optional.

Basically, it should be like so:

A is a mp3 program/library, which can do both encoding and decoding.  It
doesn't use USE=mp3, at all, since it is solely an mp3 program.
Encoding support is enabled via USE=encode.

B is a media program/library, which can do both encoding and decoding
for multiple formats.  It would use USE=mp3 to enable mp3 support.  It
would use USE=encode (with mp3 support enabled) to enable mp3 encoding
support.

C is an encoder for multiple formats.  It uses USE=mp3 for enabling mp3
encoding.

D is an encoder for mp3.  It uses no USE flags, since it is always a mp3
encoder.

I'm sure I missed other cases, but you get the point.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation

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Re: [gentoo-dev] lame use flag, local to global

[George Shapovalov]

Wednesday, 10. October 2007, Steve Dibb Ви написали:
> The little lame use flag has started showing up more in local use flags,
> and all for the same purpose, MP3 support using LAME libraries.  I vote
> we move it into a global use flag.  Any objections, let me know.
Are these cases lame specific or would majority (all?) of them be satisfied 
with the "mp3 encoding" notion? That is, would it make sense for these 
packages to use a more general flag instead? Now, mp3 stands for "Add support 
for reading mp3 files", but, perhaps, it would be usefull to extend it to 
cover decoding and encoding? (or, alternatively, introduce some global mp3enc 
flag?)

George
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Re: [gentoo-dev] lame use flag, local to global

[Petteri Räty]

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George Shapovalov kirjoitti:
> Wednesday, 10. October 2007, Steve Dibb Ви написали:
>> The little lame use flag has started showing up more in local use flags,
>> and all for the same purpose, MP3 support using LAME libraries.  I vote
>> we move it into a global use flag.  Any objections, let me know.
> Are these cases lame specific or would majority (all?) of them be satisfied 
> with the "mp3 encoding" notion? That is, would it make sense for these 
> packages to use a more general flag instead? Now, mp3 stands for "Add support 
> for reading mp3 files", but, perhaps, it would be usefull to extend it to 
> cover decoding and encoding? (or, alternatively, introduce some global mp3enc 
> flag?)
> 
> George

At least in my own desktop use I don't use mp3 encoding but do need
decoding so it makes sense to keep them separate.

Regards,
Petteri


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