Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: ML changes

[Roy Bamford <neddyseagoon@gentoo.org>]

On 2007.07.13 18:12, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> On Fri, 2007-07-13 at 08:34 +0200, Christian Faulhammer wrote:
> > Mike Doty <kingtaco@gentoo.org>:
> > 
> > > We're voting on this next council meeting so if you have input,
> now
> > > would be the time.
> > 
> >  Really, I don't like the idea...the list has been calm for some
> time
> > now, the discussions were lengthy sometimes but not aggressive.
> 
[snip stuff I mostly agree with]
> -- 
> Chris Gianelloni
> Release Engineering Strategic Lead
> Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
> Games Developer/Soon to be former Council Member and glad/Foundation
> Trustee
> Gentoo Foundation
> 

The original vision for the proctors failed because the council 
perceived that the proctors was going to be a a high profile, 
preemptive action project, mostly on the -dev mailing list.
To be preemptive requires time to act - which is just not possible 
without moderation or some form of delay.
To be high profile requires to be very public too, so there is actually 
a profile to see at all. Human nature dictates that individuals don't 
like the 'loss of face' associated with having their shortcomings 
pointed out in public, thus the most successful proctors work was 
carried out on a one to one basis, not preemtively and in a very low 
profile way. In my opinion, the project was successful in improving 
communications but not in the way it was originally envisioned by the 
council when the project was started.
Oh - a final word on the proctors ... there is no need to be a member 
of any project to smooth out misunderstandings or help improve 
communications. A thick skin to avoid being upset when you try to help 
and its not required is an asset though.


I don't like the proposed ML change, for several reasons.

1. As others have said, it will create a class structure within Gentoo, 
with non-dev contributors becoming second class citizens. At the same 
time, the barrier to becoming a develper will be increased. 

2. Something that can be done by *anybody* (list moderation) will be 
done by *nobody* - You only need look around at your workplace to see 
that. Worse still, if the proposed moderation actually happens, it will 
be based on nepotism. I say that because people will only look at posts 
they are likely to be interested in.

3. Gentoo is a living organism ... users (including devs) contribute 
what they can when they can. As has already been discussed, 
organisations go through several major structural changes as they grow 
and its possible gentoo is due one now.
Keeping in mind those three points I propose that :-
a) -core is unchanged
b) -dev has its scope narrowed to gentoo wide technical issues only
c) -per herd lists are used for traffic that does not concern almost 
everyone.

This reducing the scope of of -dev reduces the noise on the list as 
presently, even the on topic posts are noise to most devs.

The above restructuring allows room for gentoo to grow, without 
creating any second class citizens and reduces the perceived noise on -
dev at the same time.

Should the council want to enable moderation, they need to appoint a 
group to do it *everyone* simply won't work. Finding members might be 
difficult as the original ML control group has just been disbanded.

Before the council vote on this latest idea, I suggest they learn from 
the open source movement and look at other distros that have survived 
to become bigger (head count) than Gantoo and see what they did. There 
is no need to reinvent the wheel or suffer from the 'not invented here' 
syndrome. Drawing on what other distros or large projects have done is 
the was OSS works.

The worst thing the council can do is vote this measure as a parting 
gesture, a process that cannot be completed before the existing 
councils last meeting on 9th August. It needs proper research and 
consideration so is best left to the incoming council since they will 
have to live with the decision. 

Regards,

Roy Bamford
(NeddySegoon)  
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list