From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from lists.gentoo.org ([140.105.134.102] helo=robin.gentoo.org) by nuthatch.gentoo.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1I9Et0-0000sq-Ht for garchives@archives.gentoo.org; Fri, 13 Jul 2007 06:44:19 +0000 Received: from robin.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by robin.gentoo.org (8.14.0/8.14.0) with SMTP id l6D6hOiu002013; Fri, 13 Jul 2007 06:43:24 GMT Received: from spaceymail-a4.g.dreamhost.com (sd-green-bigip-83.dreamhost.com [208.97.132.83]) by robin.gentoo.org (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l6D6fSGd032164 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2007 06:41:28 GMT Received: from [172.16.1.34] (adsl-68-121-241-160.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net [68.121.241.160]) by spaceymail-a4.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D24CF161698 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2007 23:41:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes From: Peter Gordon To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org In-Reply-To: <46968E00.4070202@gentoo.org> References: <46968E00.4070202@gentoo.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-hkWpdl18SGq60fjmNXg7" Organization: Gentoo Linux Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 23:41:26 -0700 Message-Id: <1184308886.9892.48.camel@tuxhugs> Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.11.4 (2.11.4-2.fc8) X-Archives-Salt: 8e215223-2aad-4721-98c0-fdc0a775aeaf X-Archives-Hash: 4a9c352ff4277c391f63a089a7bddf34 --=-hkWpdl18SGq60fjmNXg7 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 2007-07-12 at 13:24 -0700, Mike Doty wrote: > We're going to change the -dev mailing list from completely open to where= only > devs can post, but any dev could moderate a non-dev post. devs who moder= ate in > bad posts will be subject to moderation themselves. in addition the > gentoo-project list will be created to take over what -dev frequently bec= omes. > there is no requirement to be on this new list. > We're voting on this next council meeting so if you have input, now would= be > the time. [ Long rant ahead, perhaps some of which may or may not quite as accurate as intended since I've not been following Gentoo's development as closely as I should have over the past few months. ] Quite frankly, this (if passed) will be Gentoo's deathbed moment, and this mail will be one of my last from an official Gentoo account. For far too long the mailing lists, IRC channels, and other media of developer communication have been ridden with belligerent, inconsiderate, and often-accusatory postings. However, instead of removing the few who cause most (if not all) of this damage to Gentoo, we are further restricting its development. I fail to see how such restriction will aide us in any way. We already have the gentoo-core mailing list, and anything needing to be kept internal to developer-only discussion should be sent there. Yes, stuff is leaked from time to time, but Gentoo's developer handbook [1] explicitly states that "gentoo-core is to be used for internal discussions." Thus, those who leak information that is not to be made public should be disciplined accordingly. Instead, we (the entire developer community) simply continue to let things of this nature occur, and persist in adding layers of bureaucracy in order to pretend to ourselves that this is much less harmful to us than it verily is. Yes, that's what this amounts to: bureaucracy. We are simply adding more process and protocol to the posting by non-developers. How can we say that devs won't discard what may have otherwise been great discussions of introspection or other aspects of our development? How can we ensure that developers with personal vendettas [2] won't use this moderation power as a form of attack against the developer in question or the community as a whole? Wait, what's this: Oh I see. We discipline them. What does this accomplish? It adds another point of reason for possible disciplinary action at the expense of furthering development and hindering discussion.=20 As a moderator of Gentoo's forums for nearly two years (and a moderator on a few other forums since about three years prior to this), I know from experience that such moderation should be in terms of a blacklist - whereby all posts and content are accepted and those which violate the rules disciplined. Having a whitelist - where only permitted content is accepted and others moderated in - is far too troublesome for this. Aside from the issues I noted above, who's to say which posts are "good" or "bad" in the first place? Who will ensure that posts are moderated in a timely and reasonable manner?=20 Gentoo's goal of being community-driven was in our reach once.. Nay, we _were_ a community when I first started with Gentoo several years ago now: users, developers, infrastructure hackers, designers - nearly *everyone* was contributing back to the community in a way: mailing list or forums support, bug reporting/triaging, ebuild submission, et al. Now, where do we stand? That community has fallen so much that we need another group (User Reps.) to act as an intermediary between them. More and more people are interested in development of Gentoo. They _want_ to help develop Gentoo or contribute to it in a significant way; yet all of this is just one more item to preclude such people from their contributions. Let me repeat that just to make it perfectly clear: WE ARE PUSHING AWAY POTENTIAL STAFF. But I digress.. In effect, you (the devs) are now telling others (potential contributors) what we can and cannot say on the list. While I understand that nothing about Gentoo grants me a protected right to freedom of speech or expression in any way, this reeks of heavy censorship to me. I, for one, will personally stand against any such action on this list. If it comes down to it, I will personally approve _any_ non-spam posting to this list by _anyone_ for the sake of civil disobedience. I encourage others to take similar action. This type of administration cannot be allowed to establish itself as proper or "just" in any way. [1] http://gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/handbook/handbook.xml?part=3D1&chap=3D= 3 [2] Don't disagree with this outright: I know many, including myself, have a strong mutual dislike with one or more developers from this and other distributions though we may refrain from admittance thereto. It's part of our human psyche and is a normal aspect of anyone's emotions with regards to social interactions. --=20 Peter Gordon (codergeek42) Gentoo Forums Global Moderator GnuPG Public Key ID: 0xFFC19479 / Fingerprint: DD68 A414 56BD 6368 D957 9666 4268 CB7A FFC1 9479 My Blog: http://thecodergeek.com/blog/ --=-hkWpdl18SGq60fjmNXg7 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBGlx6TQmjLev/BlHkRAsP+AKClZS3efESg9NlBG4moyiIXqZDPtgCgg9bq cSWrh0YvWEGUX5ZPNfiuvbU= =iQ6J -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-hkWpdl18SGq60fjmNXg7-- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list