[gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble

[gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble

[Benjamin Judas]

This is problably going to start a flamewar, but I am sick of such
(insert appropriate term for animal excrements here) on mailing lists,
forums and even websites.

It's okay to have dreams, they keep us working on the things we like.
But trying to force your dreams to come true annoys other people. If a
Gentoo-developer cannot advocate the heart of Gentoo - i.e. Portage -
and keeps bitching about it, then he or she should probably consider
retiring completely from Gentoo and/or fork Gentoo.

In no case, he or she should be talking bullshit (oops, I wrote it) in
official Gentoo-channels. This appears to users and other uninvolved
people like a kindergarden.

The reason for my mail is the following excerpt (Jun. 5th, time CEST)

--8<------------
21:36 <@spb> next step is making paludis the officially supported
package manager on alpha
21:36 <@eroyf> yes
21:36 <@eroyf> like it is on mips
21:36  * eroyf giggles
21:36 <@eroyf> all the mips devs are using it anyways
21:37 <@spb> and of course the ultimate aim is to drop alpha keywords
from portage
-->8------------

Please people. It's good to have destinies, and everybody wants to build
his own very personal monument. We had Zynot, we had GenUX, and now we
have Paludis.

Please stop acting as if the project of a small scottish griper brain
was "The Standard(tm)"

It is not and hopefully will never be (because then the bitching and
whining will finally stop).


I'm waiting for the stinky comments from the usual corners.

Yours sincerly
Beejay


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[gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble

[Benjamin Judas]

This is problably going to start a flamewar, but I am sick of such
(insert appropriate term for animal excrements here) on mailing lists,
forums and even websites.

It's okay to have dreams, they keep us working on the things we like.
But trying to force your dreams to come true annoys other people. If a
Gentoo-developer cannot advocate the heart of Gentoo - i.e. Portage -
and keeps bitching about it, then he or she should probably consider
retiring completely from Gentoo and/or fork Gentoo.

In no case, he or she should be talking bullshit (oops, I wrote it) in
official Gentoo-channels. This appears to users and other uninvolved
people like a kindergarden.

The reason for my mail is the following excerpt (Jun. 5th, time CEST)

--8<------------
21:36 <@spb> next step is making paludis the officially supported
package manager on alpha
21:36 <@eroyf> yes
21:36 <@eroyf> like it is on mips
21:36  * eroyf giggles
21:36 <@eroyf> all the mips devs are using it anyways
21:37 <@spb> and of course the ultimate aim is to drop alpha keywords
from portage
-->8------------

Please people. It's good to have destinies, and everybody wants to build
his own very personal monument. We had Zynot, we had GenUX, and now we
have Paludis.

Please stop acting as if the project of a small scottish griper brain
was "The Standard(tm)"

It is not and hopefully will never be (because then the bitching and
whining will finally stop).


I'm waiting for the stinky comments from the usual corners.

Yours sincerly
Beejay


-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble

[Stephen P. Becker]

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*snip*
> --8<------------
> 21:36 <@spb> next step is making paludis the officially supported
> package manager on alpha
> 21:36 <@eroyf> yes
> 21:36 <@eroyf> like it is on mips
> 21:36  * eroyf giggles
> 21:36 <@eroyf> all the mips devs are using it anyways
> 21:37 <@spb> and of course the ultimate aim is to drop alpha keywords
> from portage
> -->8------------
> 
> Please people. It's good to have destinies, and everybody wants to
> build his own very personal monument. We had Zynot, we had GenUX, and
> now we have Paludis.
> 
> Please stop acting as if the project of a small scottish griper brain
> was "The Standard(tm)"
*snip*

Wow, did you really take that conversation seriously?  If so, I feel
sorry for you, as it is clearly joke.  Clean the sand out of your
pee-hole...

-Steve

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble

[Benjamin Judas]

> > 21:36 <@spb> next step is making paludis the officially supported
> > package manager on alpha
> 
> This is what is known as a joke. Most people can recognise it as such.

As is the whole discussion about this 'project'. Addionally, for this
topic the borderlines between "joke" and "serious" seem to have blurred
in the last few weeks.

I am sick of hearing such jokes.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble

[Peter Weller]

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On Tue, 05 Jun 2007 22:09:52 +0200
Benjamin Judas <benni@beejaysworld.de> wrote:

[..snip..]

Is it just me or did you send the same mail to the ML twice?

*sigh*

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble

[Christian Hartmann]

> --8<------------
> 21:36 <@spb> next step is making paludis the officially supported
> package manager on alpha
> 21:36 <@eroyf> yes
> 21:36 <@eroyf> like it is on mips
> 21:36  * eroyf giggles
> 21:36 <@eroyf> all the mips devs are using it anyways
> 21:37 <@spb> and of course the ultimate aim is to drop alpha keywords
> from portage
> -->8------------

eroyf retired anyways. - So what?

hmm.. just wondering why he's still got op in there. Seems like being fashion 
these days..

-- 
Christian Hartmann
http://www.gentoo.org/~ian/

PGP Key:
http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2154E5EE692A4865
Key fingerprint = 4544 EC0C BAE4 216F 5981  7F95 2154 E5EE 692A 4865

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble

[Stephen Bennett]

> 21:36 <@spb> next step is making paludis the officially supported
> package manager on alpha

This is what is known as a joke. Most people can recognise it as such.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Tue, 05 Jun 2007 22:29:02 +0200
Benjamin Judas <benni@beejaysworld.de> wrote:
> > > 21:36 <@spb> next step is making paludis the officially supported
> > > package manager on alpha
> > 
> > This is what is known as a joke. Most people can recognise it as
> > such.
> 
> As is the whole discussion about this 'project'. Addionally, for this
> topic the borderlines between "joke" and "serious" seem to have
> blurred in the last few weeks.

That's an awfully vague and FUDdish claim. Care to elaborate?

> I am sick of hearing such jokes.

Then don't listen.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble

[Petteri Räty]

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Christian Hartmann kirjoitti:
>> --8<------------
>> 21:36 <@spb> next step is making paludis the officially supported
>> package manager on alpha
>> 21:36 <@eroyf> yes
>> 21:36 <@eroyf> like it is on mips
>> 21:36  * eroyf giggles
>> 21:36 <@eroyf> all the mips devs are using it anyways
>> 21:37 <@spb> and of course the ultimate aim is to drop alpha keywords
>> from portage
>> -->8------------
> 
> eroyf retired anyways. - So what?
> 
> hmm.. just wondering why he's still got op in there. Seems like being fashion 
> these days..
> 

Because we give people some time to reconsider before going ahead with
the retirement process.

Regards,
Petteri


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble

[Gustavo Zacarias]

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Peter Weller wrote:


> Is it just me or did you send the same mail to the ML twice?

It's just you, there's no dupe.
It's just you, there's no dupe.

- --
- --
Gustavo Zacarias
Gustavo Zacarias
Gentoo/SPARC monkey
Gentoo/SPARC monkey
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble

[Christian Hartmann]

Am Dienstag 05 Juni 2007 22:37:25 schrieb Ciaran McCreesh:
> > I am sick of hearing such jokes.
>
> Then don't listen.

Nono. It's not that easy.

New users will have to listen as they have to take things seriously being said 
on official channels by developers.

I'm just telling you what new users tend to think about it.

Am Dienstag 05 Juni 2007 22:38:57 schrieb Petteri Räty:
> Because we give people some time to reconsider before going ahead with
> the retirement process.

And that's - out of question - actually a good thing.

-- 
Christian Hartmann
http://www.gentoo.org/~ian/

PGP Key:
http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2154E5EE692A4865
Key fingerprint = 4544 EC0C BAE4 216F 5981  7F95 2154 E5EE 692A 4865

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble

[Raúl Porcel]

Peter Weller wrote:
> On Tue, 05 Jun 2007 22:09:52 +0200
> Benjamin Judas <benni@beejaysworld.de> wrote:
> 
> [..snip..]
> 
> Is it just me or did you send the same mail to the ML twice?
> 
> *sigh*

/me blames welp
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble

[Stephen Bennett]

On Tue, 05 Jun 2007 22:29:02 +0200
Benjamin Judas <benni@beejaysworld.de> wrote:

> I am sick of hearing such jokes.

Then ignore them, and don't blow them out of proportion so that
everyone else who didn't see them in its original context, and probably
doesn't particularly want to, has to see them in the middle of a
large thread on -dev. I really cannot see a single reason why starting
this thread is/was a remotely good idea.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble

[George Prowse]

Stephen Bennett wrote:
> On Tue, 05 Jun 2007 22:29:02 +0200
> Benjamin Judas <benni@beejaysworld.de> wrote:
> 
>> I am sick of hearing such jokes.
> 
> Then ignore them, and don't blow them out of proportion so that
> everyone else who didn't see them in its original context, and probably
> doesn't particularly want to, has to see them in the middle of a
> large thread on -dev. I really cannot see a single reason why starting
> this thread is/was a remotely good idea.

He thought that some good could have come from it, obviously.

Was your behaviour wrong? Not particularly. Was it in bad taste? 
Definitely. Could his email to the list stop others from making the same 
mistakes? Hopefully.

Seems simple to me...
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble

[Stephen Bennett]

On Tue, 05 Jun 2007 22:08:38 +0100
George Prowse <cokehabit@gmail.com> wrote:

> Was your behaviour wrong? Not particularly. Was it in bad taste? 
> Definitely. Could his email to the list stop others from making the
> same mistakes? Hopefully.

Bad taste depends entirely upon context and upon the people reading it.
In the context that the original comment was made, everyone active at
the time recognised it for what it was, so it wasn't bad taste. On this
list, it is. The mistake was in taking a joke amongst a group of
friends out of that context and into a much wider one full of people
liable to get their panties in a twist.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Fact Injection (was: Living in a bubble)

[Kumba]

Benjamin Judas wrote:

> --8<------------
> 21:36 <@spb> next step is making paludis the officially supported
> package manager on alpha
> 21:36 <@eroyf> yes
> 21:36 <@eroyf> like it is on mips
> 21:36  * eroyf giggles
> 21:36 <@eroyf> all the mips devs are using it anyways
> 21:37 <@spb> and of course the ultimate aim is to drop alpha keywords
> from portage
> -->8------------

Ya'll don't hear from me very often, usually because for the last 9 months or 
so, I've been pretty apathetic to things that have been going on.  But I keep on 
truckin' because I have this....sense that we're just having a wee little dark 
age.  You know, like that one back in the last millennium where there was 
probably 0 scientific advancement?  Well, we (the world) survived that.  We also 
survived the Cold War.  And by the gods, we're gonna survive Bush too (bloody 
RAID6 bugs....).  That means, Gentoo can survive this this little dark spell 
quite easily.  We won't be the same organization that we were we this all 
started, but well, that's life.  Old blood will be leeched, and new blood 
transfused in.

I've made rumblings about an old Star Wars club I was once in.  They too went 
downhill a bit during my tenure there, and by the time I left, I said: "They 
won't survive another year at this rate.  Decisions take forever, the founder 
barely pays attention, and most of the command staff argues over minor things, 
like rank and title."  That was late 2001, early 2002 when I said that (and when 
I left).  They're still around.  Different people running it, but they're still 
around.

That was like, wow, five years ago almost.  Now if a club made up of people 
loyal to the bad guys in a fictional sci-fi universe can survive as long as they 
have, a distro like Gentoo, with its radical capabilities for adapting to change 
can survive a helluva lot longer.  WAY longer.  All other things are, frankly, 
irrelevant.  They're just the details.




Now why quote that one snippet above?  Simple.  A joke it was; yes.  But since I 
am pretty much the MIPS team these days, I felt it was time once again for me to 
stop talking about pikachus and mudkips, and pikakips and mudchus, and set some 
things straight with regards to this arch.  Some of this reflects my own 
feelings on the matter as well, which I may or may not have shared before.

Namely, number 1, Paludis is _not_ the "official" package manager of the MIPS 
arch.  Right now, Portage *is*, because *that* is what the stages, built by 
Catalyst (on my bloody Octane), have in them.  And unless Catalyst starts 
building stages with Paludis exclusively, that fact will *not* change anytime soon.

I have nothing against Paludis, or even pkgcore, but as I see it, Portage is 
what we build release stages with; it's what a majority of our users use; it's 
what freakin' _defines_ us.  I couldn't care less if some people regard Portage 
as being more broke than Windows Millennium, and that certain alternatives are 
superior.  Portage _is_ Gentoo, and thus, it's what I use.  That's my take on 
the whole matter.

Now with that info out there, this is why I like this PMS thing that spb and 
ciaranm have been working on.  I haven't read more than a few pages of the PDF 
documenting it, but it's top notch stuff, I think.  And it's what we've needed 
for a very long time.

See, I don't see a future where Gentoo only has one "official" package manager. 
  I see a future where Gentoo provides a living database of software, adherent 
to a defined standard; A standard that allows multiple package managers to 
interface with and utilize.  And because this standard exists, if one package 
manager sucks relative to another, then someone with savvy codin' skills can go 
off and fix it.  Or write an entirely new package manager.  In TCL if you want. 
  Or freakin' Visual Basic.  Whatever floats your shredded wheat.

So right now, coming from the mouth (or hands) of the resident MIPS junkie, 
Portage is our official package manager.  And no, not all the mips devs use 
Paludis either.  Probably because I'm the lone guy who sticks to Portage because 
I'm too damn lazy to bother re-learning an entirely new set of commands.  I like 
my emerge, I love my repoman (even if it's a bloody slow thing), and so on.  In 
the future, I hope to have MIPS maybe become the arch that'll be the first to 
support multiple package managers, officially.  And by that, I mean stages for 
portage, paludis, and pkgcore.  Even if it means a dozen stages or more to 
support each one, that's fine (even if I have to write the Catalyst code for 
it).  Because that's what Gentoo is about -- Choice.

Although, I wonder if it's more sane to create some gcc-config-like tool to just 
"switch" between package managers on the fly in a single stage3, irregardless of 
what package manager built that stage.  Now wouldn't freakin' rock a zergling's 
socks?




Anyways, we're off the crab guys.  Really.  We're pulling in blank pots, the 
crew is getting restless, and we're almost out of coffee and nicotine.  Let's 
get our heads on straight, our asses in gear, fill our tanks and get back to 
port so we can get paid and go home.

Don't make me write another mail like this in a few months' time, k?



--Kumba

-- 
Gentoo/MIPS Team Lead

"Such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands 
do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere."  --Elrond
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[gentoo-dev] Re: Fact Injection (was: Living in a bubble)

[Duncan]

Kumba <kumba@gentoo.org> posted 4666358F.70608@gentoo.org, excerpted
below, on  Wed, 06 Jun 2007 00:18:23 -0400:

> Ya'll don't hear from me very often, usually because for the last 9
> months or so, I've been pretty apathetic to things that have been going
> on.  But I keep on truckin' because I have this....sense that we're just
> having a wee little dark age.  You know, like that one back in the last
> millennium where there was probably 0 scientific advancement?  Well, we
> (the world) survived that.  We also survived the Cold War.  And by the
> gods, we're gonna survive Bush too (bloody RAID6 bugs....).  That means,
> Gentoo can survive this this little dark spell quite easily.  We won't
> be the same organization that we were we this all started, but well,
> that's life.  Old blood will be leeched, and new blood transfused in.

I'm not a mips user, but FWIW from this (amd64) user's perspective, 
thanks, both for the mail, which I thought was very well put, and for 
stickin' around.

Some of us users found a home with Gentoo, and despite all the "life and 
times of gentoo-dev" soap opera stuff that seems to go on some of the 
time, hope it's around for a long while...  I imagine myself doing my 
final sync, fifty years from now or whatever (I'd be ninety), and they 
come to check on me the next morning, to find death finally synced with 
me.  For that to happen, there'll still need to be some Gentoo devs 
around creating those packages, so yeah, I'm grateful for all you guys 
and all your contributions, even when it's "not so fun anymore", and wish 
you a very long and productive Gentoo devhood! =8^)

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Fact Injection

[Andrew Gaffney]

Kumba wrote:
> Anyways, we're off the crab guys.  Really.  We're pulling in blank pots, 
> the crew is getting restless, and we're almost out of coffee and 
> nicotine.  Let's get our heads on straight, our asses in gear, fill our 
> tanks and get back to port so we can get paid and go home.

I wonder how many people are going to get that reference :)

-- 
Andrew Gaffney                                 http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
Gentoo Linux Developer             Catalyst/Installer + x86 release coordinator
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