[gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Peter Weber]

Hello,
since Gentoo started its "Gentoopix" LiveCD I really miss a CD for
networkless-installation. I don't know why the stage3 is missing,
because just some people need a full Gnome-Desktop for the
installation :-(

A year ago I could choose between a Minimal-CD for network-installation,
or a Universal-CD for offline-installation (independence)
network-installation. Nowadays I need to load a "Gentoopix" with a lot
of really unnecessary Gnome-Stuff, and even don't get a real Stage3,
just a bunch of Voodoo-Scripts.

First Question: Where is here the Choice_Of_Gentoo and why are we
breaking with our tradition of shell-installing?
I would be better to offer a real Universal-CD or to creat a
bootloader-script, which gives the users the possibility to start
X11/GTK-Installer if they want this, not without a question.

Second Question: Will there be a new Universal-CD (or a DVD) with a real
Stage3 for networkless-installion?

I think, a gentoo-user should be able to choose between the shell,
ncurses- and a gtk-installer. And any of this groups should have the
same possibilites to install.


Greetz







-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Jakub Moc]

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Peter Weber wrote:
> Hello,
> since Gentoo started its "Gentoopix" LiveCD I really miss a CD for
> networkless-installation. I don't know why the stage3 is missing,
> because just some people need a full Gnome-Desktop for the
> installation :-(

Oh noes, we even have a whole special handbook version [1] for
networkless installs, but you didn't bother to check even, right?

[1] http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/2006.1/index.xml

Sigh. :(

-- 
Best regards,

 Jakub Moc
 mailto:jakub@gentoo.org
 GPG signature:
 http://subkeys.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xCEBA3D9E
 Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95  B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E

 ... still no signature   ;)


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Peter Weber]

You don't unterstand me, sorry.
There is no Universal-CD, a User must to download the LiveCD which
forces he/she to use the Ncurses/X11-Installer, because there is no
Stage3-Tarball.

The missing Stage3 is the real problem.

On Thu, 2006-10-05 at 16:27 +0200, Jakub Moc wrote:
> Peter Weber wrote:
> > Hello,
> > since Gentoo started its "Gentoopix" LiveCD I really miss a CD for
> > networkless-installation. I don't know why the stage3 is missing,
> > because just some people need a full Gnome-Desktop for the
> > installation :-(
> 
> Oh noes, we even have a whole special handbook version [1] for
> networkless installs, but you didn't bother to check even, right?
> 
> [1] http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/2006.1/index.xml
> 
> Sigh. :(
> 

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Thu, 2006-10-05 at 15:52 +0200, Peter Weber wrote:
> First Question: Where is here the Choice_Of_Gentoo and why are we
> breaking with our tradition of shell-installing?

I love this argument.

What about *our* choice to not waste time building things we don't want?

> I would be better to offer a real Universal-CD or to creat a
> bootloader-script, which gives the users the possibility to start
> X11/GTK-Installer if they want this, not without a question.

Umm... "nox" works just fine.

See, what *you* seem to be missing is that we're trying to provide a
better environment for our users.  The LiveCD is *not* just an
installation medium anymore.  It is a full-fledged Gentoo environment.
It can be used for showcasing Gentoo, as well as system recovery *and*
installation.

> Second Question: Will there be a new Universal-CD (or a DVD) with a real
> Stage3 for networkless-installion?

No.  I do plan on putting the stage3 on the next LiveDVD, but without
the necessary distfiles, it won't do much good for doing a completely
networkless installation.  The simple truth is that there were way too
many bug reports each release about missing distfiles and other such
problems that made it not worth the time required to maintain for us.

> I think, a gentoo-user should be able to choose between the shell,
> ncurses- and a gtk-installer. And any of this groups should have the
> same possibilites to install.

I've actually been writing a document on how to use the installer
scripts from the command line (without running the installer itself) to
perform an install.

At any rate, there's *nothing* stopping someone *else* from building
their own Universal CD.  If you need it, build it.  People seem to think
that "choice" means "forcing developers to do what *I* want them to do
with *their* volunteered time".  It doesn't.

We release our code under the GPL.  We release our release-building
tool.  We release our spec files for that tool.  Anyone is capable of
running a few scripts to do exactly what we've done to build their own
"Gentoo" release.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Jakub Moc]

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Peter Weber wrote:
> You don't unterstand me, sorry.
> There is no Universal-CD, a User must to download the LiveCD which
> forces he/she to use the Ncurses/X11-Installer, because there is no
> Stage3-Tarball.

OH RLY? Maybe just read the options you can pass to bootloader to get CLI?

> The missing Stage3 is the real problem.

Apparently...

http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/x86/2006.1/stages/stage3-i686-2006.1.tar.bz2
http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/amd64/2006.1/stages/stage3-amd64-2006.1.tar.bz2
http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/ppc/2006.1/ppc32/stages/stage3-ppc-2006.1.tar.bz2
http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/ppc/2006.1/ppc64/stages/stage3-ppc64-32ul-2006.1.tar.bz2
http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/ppc/2006.1/ppc64/stages/stage3-ppc64-64ul-2006.1.tar.bz2
http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/sparc/2006.1/sparc32/stages/stage3-sparc-2006.1.tar.bz2
http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/sparc/2006.1/sparc64/stages/stage3-sparc64-2006.1.tar.bz2
http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/ia64/2006.1/stages/stage3-ia64-2006.1.tar.bz2
http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/alpha/2006.1/stages/stage3-alpha-2006.1.tar.bz2
http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/hppa/2006.1/stages/hppa2.0/stage3-hppa2.0-2006.1.tar.bz2
http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/hppa/2006.1/stages/hppa1.1/stage3-hppa1.1-2006.1.tar.bz2
http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/mips/2006.1/stages/mips3/stage3-mips3-2006.1.tar.bz2
http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/mips/2006.1/stages/mips4/stage3-mips4-2006.1.tar.bz2


-- 
Best regards,

 Jakub Moc
 mailto:jakub@gentoo.org
 GPG signature:
 http://subkeys.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xCEBA3D9E
 Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95  B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E

 ... still no signature   ;)


[-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --]
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Dan Meltzer]

On 10/5/06, Jakub Moc <jakub@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Peter Weber wrote:
> > You don't unterstand me, sorry.
> > There is no Universal-CD, a User must to download the LiveCD which
> > forces he/she to use the Ncurses/X11-Installer, because there is no
> > Stage3-Tarball.
>
> OH RLY? Maybe just read the options you can pass to bootloader to get CLI?
>
> > The missing Stage3 is the real problem.
>
> Apparently...
>
> http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/x86/2006.1/stages/stage3-i686-2006.1.tar.bz2
> http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/amd64/2006.1/stages/stage3-amd64-2006.1.tar.bz2
> http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/ppc/2006.1/ppc32/stages/stage3-ppc-2006.1.tar.bz2
> http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/ppc/2006.1/ppc64/stages/stage3-ppc64-32ul-2006.1.tar.bz2
> http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/ppc/2006.1/ppc64/stages/stage3-ppc64-64ul-2006.1.tar.bz2
> http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/sparc/2006.1/sparc32/stages/stage3-sparc-2006.1.tar.bz2
> http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/sparc/2006.1/sparc64/stages/stage3-sparc64-2006.1.tar.bz2
> http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/ia64/2006.1/stages/stage3-ia64-2006.1.tar.bz2
> http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/alpha/2006.1/stages/stage3-alpha-2006.1.tar.bz2
> http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/hppa/2006.1/stages/hppa2.0/stage3-hppa2.0-2006.1.tar.bz2
> http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/hppa/2006.1/stages/hppa1.1/stage3-hppa1.1-2006.1.tar.bz2
> http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/mips/2006.1/stages/mips3/stage3-mips3-2006.1.tar.bz2
> http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/mips/2006.1/stages/mips4/stage3-mips4-2006.1.tar.bz2

None of which are that helpful for a networkless install :/
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
>
>  Jakub Moc
>  mailto:jakub@gentoo.org
>  GPG signature:
>  http://subkeys.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xCEBA3D9E
>  Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95  B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E
>
>  ... still no signature   ;)
>
>
>
>
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Peter Weber]

On Thu, 2006-10-05 at 10:48 -0400, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> 
> > Second Question: Will there be a new Universal-CD (or a DVD) with a real
> > Stage3 for networkless-installion?
> 
> No.  I do plan on putting the stage3 on the next LiveDVD, but without
> the necessary distfiles, it won't do much good for doing a completely
> networkless installation.  

> I've actually been writing a document on how to use the installer
> scripts from the command line (without running the installer itself) to
> perform an install.
> 


More is not necessary. Thanks.

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Jakub Moc]

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Dan Meltzer wrote:

> None of which are that helpful for a networkless install :/

Funny, I can still do networkless install with those just fine by
fetching the distfiles tarballs before install - hint: emerge -[fF]

Plus nothing stops you from creating your own customized media using our
release tools, as already said. You can still install Gentoo from stage1
if you really wish, it's just not something that we want to support any
more. You can do lots of other things, like stage4 stuff. I don't see
how are we discriminating anyone; we just choose what we can support and
what we don't wish/can't support any more with the limited manpower
available.


-- 
Best regards,

 Jakub Moc
 mailto:jakub@gentoo.org
 GPG signature:
 http://subkeys.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xCEBA3D9E
 Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95  B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E

 ... still no signature   ;)


[-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --]
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Simon Stelling]

Jakub Moc wrote:
>> The missing Stage3 is the real problem.
> 
> Apparently...
> 
> http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/x86/2006.1/stages/stage3-i686-2006.1.tar.bz2
> http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/amd64/2006.1/stages/stage3-amd64-2006.1.tar.bz2
> http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/ppc/2006.1/ppc32/stages/stage3-ppc-2006.1.tar.bz2
> http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/ppc/2006.1/ppc64/stages/stage3-ppc64-32ul-2006.1.tar.bz2
> http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/ppc/2006.1/ppc64/stages/stage3-ppc64-64ul-2006.1.tar.bz2
> http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/sparc/2006.1/sparc32/stages/stage3-sparc-2006.1.tar.bz2
> http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/sparc/2006.1/sparc64/stages/stage3-sparc64-2006.1.tar.bz2
> http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/ia64/2006.1/stages/stage3-ia64-2006.1.tar.bz2
> http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/alpha/2006.1/stages/stage3-alpha-2006.1.tar.bz2
> http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/hppa/2006.1/stages/hppa2.0/stage3-hppa2.0-2006.1.tar.bz2
> http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/hppa/2006.1/stages/hppa1.1/stage3-hppa1.1-2006.1.tar.bz2
> http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/mips/2006.1/stages/mips3/stage3-mips3-2006.1.tar.bz2
> http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/mips/2006.1/stages/mips4/stage3-mips4-2006.1.tar.bz2

Stop being stupid please, you're only making fun of yourself. I guess I
don't have to explain you how useful a URL is to a _networkless_
installation, do I?

-- 
Kind Regards,

Simon Stelling
Gentoo/AMD64 Developer
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Caleb Cushing]

grab catalyst 2 learn how to use it an make your own stage 3
installer. it's pretty easy. their's the gentoo-cayalyst list if you
need help.

> Plus nothing stops you from creating your own customized media using our
> release tools, as already said. You can still install Gentoo from stage1
> if you really wish, it's just not something that we want to support any
> more. You can do lots of other things, like stage4 stuff. I don't see
> how are we discriminating anyone; we just choose what we can support and
> what we don't wish/can't support any more with the limited manpower
> available.
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Steev Klimaszewski]

Simon Stelling wrote:
> Jakub Moc wrote:
>>> The missing Stage3 is the real problem.
>> Apparently...
>>
>> http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/x86/2006.1/stages/stage3-i686-2006.1.tar.bz2
>> http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/amd64/2006.1/stages/stage3-amd64-2006.1.tar.bz2
>> http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/ppc/2006.1/ppc32/stages/stage3-ppc-2006.1.tar.bz2
>> http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/ppc/2006.1/ppc64/stages/stage3-ppc64-32ul-2006.1.tar.bz2
>> http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/ppc/2006.1/ppc64/stages/stage3-ppc64-64ul-2006.1.tar.bz2
>> http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/sparc/2006.1/sparc32/stages/stage3-sparc-2006.1.tar.bz2
>> http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/sparc/2006.1/sparc64/stages/stage3-sparc64-2006.1.tar.bz2
>> http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/ia64/2006.1/stages/stage3-ia64-2006.1.tar.bz2
>> http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/alpha/2006.1/stages/stage3-alpha-2006.1.tar.bz2
>> http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/hppa/2006.1/stages/hppa2.0/stage3-hppa2.0-2006.1.tar.bz2
>> http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/hppa/2006.1/stages/hppa1.1/stage3-hppa1.1-2006.1.tar.bz2
>> http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/mips/2006.1/stages/mips3/stage3-mips3-2006.1.tar.bz2
>> http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/mips/2006.1/stages/mips4/stage3-mips4-2006.1.tar.bz2
> 
> Stop being stupid please, you're only making fun of yourself. I guess I
> don't have to explain you how useful a URL is to a _networkless_
> installation, do I?
> 
No... but didn't one download and burn that CD that is being used for
the _networkless_ install?  One could also download the stage needed,
slap it on a usb key, and viola!  Of course, the other option, is to use
that crazy installer option "Networkless" - I could be wrong, but I do
believe that is the option I would choose.  (Actually I did this just
the other day because of the issues I am having at home with my
networking.  And it worked splendidly on a P2 366 - so kudos to the
releng team)
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Paul de Vrieze]

Steev Klimaszewski wrote:
> No... but didn't one download and burn that CD that is being used for
> the _networkless_ install?  One could also download the stage needed,
> slap it on a usb key, and viola!  Of course, the other option, is to use
> that crazy installer option "Networkless" - I could be wrong, but I do
> believe that is the option I would choose.  (Actually I did this just
> the other day because of the issues I am having at home with my
> networking.  And it worked splendidly on a P2 366 - so kudos to the
> releng team)

The thing is, they guy does not want to use the installer. I don't
remember there being a way to just extract the stages/packages manually
either.

At this point though I think using the installer is reasonable enough.

Paul
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Fri, 2006-10-06 at 09:39 +0200, Paul de Vrieze wrote:
> Steev Klimaszewski wrote:
> > No... but didn't one download and burn that CD that is being used for
> > the _networkless_ install?  One could also download the stage needed,
> > slap it on a usb key, and viola!  Of course, the other option, is to use
> > that crazy installer option "Networkless" - I could be wrong, but I do
> > believe that is the option I would choose.  (Actually I did this just
> > the other day because of the issues I am having at home with my
> > networking.  And it worked splendidly on a P2 366 - so kudos to the
> > releng team)
> 
> The thing is, they guy does not want to use the installer. I don't
> remember there being a way to just extract the stages/packages manually
> either.

OK.  I *said* that I was writing a document on this, but people seem to
just want to keep on postulating and talking about complete
inaccuracies.

Yes, you can install using portions of the installer from the command
line (not ncurses).  Unfortunately, one component necessary for a
complete install from the command line (installing a kernel) was not
added until after 2006.1 shipped, so you cannot do a completely
networkless install with only the LiveCD/LiveDVD.

> At this point though I think using the installer is reasonable enough.

I would agree there.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Stelian Ionescu]

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On Thu, Oct 05, 2006 at 03:32:41PM -0500, Steev Klimaszewski wrote:
[:snip:]
>> Stop being stupid please, you're only making fun of yourself. I guess I
>> don't have to explain you how useful a URL is to a _networkless_
>> installation, do I?
>> 
>No... but didn't one download and burn that CD that is being used for
>the _networkless_ install?  One could also download the stage needed,
actually, at least here in Italy many people buy Linux magazines only to
have the latest distros, since the percentage of population not reached
by *DSL lines is still quite high

-- 
(sign :name "Stelian Ionescu" :aka "fe[nl]ix"
      :quote "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.")

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Dominique Michel]

Le Fri, 06 Oct 2006 10:06:41 -0400,
Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@gentoo.org> a écrit :

> On Fri, 2006-10-06 at 09:39 +0200, Paul de Vrieze wrote:
> > Steev Klimaszewski wrote:
> > > No... but didn't one download and burn that CD that is being used for
> > > the _networkless_ install?  One could also download the stage needed,
> > > slap it on a usb key, and viola!  Of course, the other option, is to use
> > > that crazy installer option "Networkless" - I could be wrong, but I do
> > > believe that is the option I would choose.  (Actually I did this just
> > > the other day because of the issues I am having at home with my
> > > networking.  And it worked splendidly on a P2 366 - so kudos to the
> > > releng team)
> > 
> > The thing is, they guy does not want to use the installer. I don't
> > remember there being a way to just extract the stages/packages manually
> > either.
> 
> OK.  I *said* that I was writing a document on this, but people seem to
> just want to keep on postulating and talking about complete
> inaccuracies.
> 
> Yes, you can install using portions of the installer from the command
> line (not ncurses).  Unfortunately, one component necessary for a
> complete install from the command line (installing a kernel) was not
> added until after 2006.1 shipped, so you cannot do a completely
> networkless install with only the LiveCD/LiveDVD.

I will just say at this have to be fixed. From the website: "The Gentoo 2006.1
Handbook is an effort to centralize documentation into a coherent handbook. It
contains the networkless installation instructions for the 2006.1 release "
http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/index.xml?catid=install#doc_chap2

>From this handbook: "This document covers the installation using a Gentoo Linux
Installation CD, a bootable CD that contains everything you need to get Gentoo
Linux up and running."
http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/2006.1/handbook-x86.xml?part=1&chap=1

When an user or a potential user read it and want to do a networkless install,
it will just use the Live CD install, and just get in trouble. It is even worse
when many Linux magazines will have this CD. And you cannot argue at it is just
to use catalyst or to burn a CD from a stage 3, when the doc say "a bootable CD
that contains everything you need to get Gentoo Linux up and running."


> 
> > At this point though I think using the installer is reasonable enough.
> 
> I would agree there.
> 
 
I agree too, but only if it work, and it doesn't completely work for a
networless installation.

-- 
Dominique Michel

-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Simon Stelling]

Dominique Michel wrote:
> When an user or a potential user read it and want to do a networkless install,
> it will just use the Live CD install, and just get in trouble. It is even worse
> when many Linux magazines will have this CD. And you cannot argue at it is just
> to use catalyst or to burn a CD from a stage 3, when the doc say "a bootable CD
> that contains everything you need to get Gentoo Linux up and running."

That statement is still true. I have done 3 networkless installations 
for this release, without a problem. I used the installer. Using it you 
get your box up and running fast and convenient, so what exactly is the 
problem? It's not like you can't get Gentoo running without a network 
connection anymore.

-- 
Kind Regards,

Simon Stelling
Gentoo/AMD64 developer
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Kari Hazzard]

On Thursday 05 October 2006 10:48 am, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> What about *our* choice to not waste time building things we don't want?

So what about those of us who DO want that? Forcing us into an installer is 
more constricting and gives us less freedom--That's not the Gentoo way.

"If the tool forces the user to do things a particular way, then the tool is 
working against, rather than for, the user. We have all experienced 
situations where tools seem to be imposing their respective wills on us. This 
is backwards, and contrary to the Gentoo philosophy." - Daniel Robbins

> See, what *you* seem to be missing is that we're trying to provide a
> better environment for our users.  The LiveCD is *not* just an
> installation medium anymore.  It is a full-fledged Gentoo environment.
> It can be used for showcasing Gentoo, as well as system recovery *and*
> installation.

There's a thing called self-reference criteria. It's anathema in marketing. If 
you think you know what is best for your users, you will all of your users 
and thus most of your employees. Your users know what is best for them, *not* 
you, as you are not a user (whether you have it installed on your desktop 
notwithstanding you are *not* a user). If your users still want a Universal 
LiveCD, then the onus is on Gentoo to provide one.

--
Kari Hazzard
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Mon, 2006-10-09 at 10:38 +0200, Simon Stelling wrote:
> Dominique Michel wrote:
> > When an user or a potential user read it and want to do a networkless install,
> > it will just use the Live CD install, and just get in trouble. It is even worse
> > when many Linux magazines will have this CD. And you cannot argue at it is just
> > to use catalyst or to burn a CD from a stage 3, when the doc say "a bootable CD
> > that contains everything you need to get Gentoo Linux up and running."
> 
> That statement is still true. I have done 3 networkless installations 
> for this release, without a problem. I used the installer. Using it you 
> get your box up and running fast and convenient, so what exactly is the 
> problem? It's not like you can't get Gentoo running without a network 
> connection anymore.

The problem is that it is a change, and our users resist changes.

While I appreciate the input from our users, I have no intentions on
"going backwards" to what we had before.  I was planning on adding more
content to the LiveDVD images next time around, such as more packages,
and likely the stage3 tarball.  Whether I include any distfiles or not
is still up in the air, mostly due to the massive number of bugs that
were caused every single release due to people using the provided
distfiles/packages incorrectly.  We simply don't have enough manpower to
test every single possible combination of USE and packages during the
release cycle and our calls for testing usually go mostly unanswered.
We saw a definite increase in the number of developers helping with
testing this past release, but we still need more.

At any rate, the next release will allow a user to *very* easily to
networkless installs *without* requiring them use the installer itself.
I will have this documented by that time, so there's no need to fret
over it.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Peter Weber]

Hello, I am very glad to here that a complet networkless install via a
stage3 on the dvd without the installer would be possible again!

But why you write always something about the distfiles? Are there users
who want this? I really don't know.
I personally, think in the same way like you!
It is unecessary, because we got every week new ebuilds und useflags, if
someone would a total customized system he need to load alle sources
(stage1 or save it on the hdd before installation).

But to include the sources need simply too much space. I also think it
it enough to deliver only one stage3 (i686 on the x86-disk, x86-64 on
amd64-disk...).

Greetz


On Mon, 2006-10-09 at 08:47 -0400, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> On Mon, 2006-10-09 at 10:38 +0200, Simon Stelling wrote:
> > Dominique Michel wrote:
> > > When an user or a potential user read it and want to do a networkless install,
> > > it will just use the Live CD install, and just get in trouble. It is even worse
> > > when many Linux magazines will have this CD. And you cannot argue at it is just
> > > to use catalyst or to burn a CD from a stage 3, when the doc say "a bootable CD
> > > that contains everything you need to get Gentoo Linux up and running."
> > 
> > That statement is still true. I have done 3 networkless installations 
> > for this release, without a problem. I used the installer. Using it you 
> > get your box up and running fast and convenient, so what exactly is the 
> > problem? It's not like you can't get Gentoo running without a network 
> > connection anymore.
> 
> The problem is that it is a change, and our users resist changes.
> 
> While I appreciate the input from our users, I have no intentions on
> "going backwards" to what we had before.  I was planning on adding more
> content to the LiveDVD images next time around, such as more packages,
> and likely the stage3 tarball.  Whether I include any distfiles or not
> is still up in the air, mostly due to the massive number of bugs that
> were caused every single release due to people using the provided
> distfiles/packages incorrectly.  We simply don't have enough manpower to
> test every single possible combination of USE and packages during the
> release cycle and our calls for testing usually go mostly unanswered.
> We saw a definite increase in the number of developers helping with
> testing this past release, but we still need more.
> 
> At any rate, the next release will allow a user to *very* easily to
> networkless installs *without* requiring them use the installer itself.
> I will have this documented by that time, so there's no need to fret
> over it.
> 

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Roy Bamford]

On 2006.10.09 19:42, Peter Weber wrote:
[snip]
> But to include the sources need simply too much space. I also think  
> it it enough to deliver only one stage3 (i686 on the x86-disk, x86-64  
> on
> amd64-disk...).
> 
> Greetz
> 
[snip]

Peter,

Such a disk will not support P1s and AMD k6 CPUs (or older).
Is anyone still using Gentoo on anything older ?

Dropping support for x86 <i686 is a debate we need to have some time I  
suppose, its a question of when.

There is clearly only a few users, besides myself using systems that  
old, since there were very few forums posts about the original 2006.1  
x86 media not workign on P1 and AMD k6 based systems.

Regards,

Roy Bamford
(neddyseagoon)

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Donnie Berkholz]

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Kari Hazzard wrote:
> There's a thing called self-reference criteria. It's anathema in marketing. If 
> you think you know what is best for your users, you will all of your users 
> and thus most of your employees. Your users know what is best for them, *not* 
> you, as you are not a user (whether you have it installed on your desktop 
> notwithstanding you are *not* a user). If your users still want a Universal 
> LiveCD, then the onus is on Gentoo to provide one.

That's only true if you assume Gentoo developers are in this for the
users and not for themselves and their own personal satisfaction.

Thanks,
Donnie


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Mon, 2006-10-09 at 20:42 +0200, Peter Weber wrote:
> Hello, I am very glad to here that a complet networkless install via a
> stage3 on the dvd without the installer would be possible again!

I never said that.

> > At any rate, the next release will allow a user to *very* easily to
> > networkless installs *without* requiring them use the installer itself.
> > I will have this documented by that time, so there's no need to fret
> > over it.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Peter Weber]

It was only a suggestion, not a decision. Of course, there are only a
little number of this early systems.
i686 would be really nice, i386 would be nice, too ;-)

On Mon, 2006-10-09 at 20:45 +0100, Roy Bamford wrote:
> On 2006.10.09 19:42, Peter Weber wrote:
> [snip]
> > But to include the sources need simply too much space. I also think  
> > it it enough to deliver only one stage3 (i686 on the x86-disk, x86-64  
> > on
> > amd64-disk...).
> > 
> > Greetz
> > 
> [snip]
> 
> Peter,
> 
> Such a disk will not support P1s and AMD k6 CPUs (or older).
> Is anyone still using Gentoo on anything older ?
> 
> Dropping support for x86 <i686 is a debate we need to have some time I  
> suppose, its a question of when.
> 
> There is clearly only a few users, besides myself using systems that  
> old, since there were very few forums posts about the original 2006.1  
> x86 media not workign on P1 and AMD k6 based systems.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Roy Bamford
> (neddyseagoon)
> 

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Mon, 2006-10-09 at 07:40 -0400, Kari Hazzard wrote:
> On Thursday 05 October 2006 10:48 am, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> > What about *our* choice to not waste time building things we don't want?
> 
> So what about those of us who DO want that? Forcing us into an installer is 
> more constricting and gives us less freedom--That's not the Gentoo way.

Start building...

> "If the tool forces the user to do things a particular way, then the tool is 
> working against, rather than for, the user. We have all experienced 
> situations where tools seem to be imposing their respective wills on us. This 
> is backwards, and contrary to the Gentoo philosophy." - Daniel Robbins

That's nice.

Nobody is forcing you to use the Installer.  Nobody is forcing you to
even use Gentoo release media to do your installations.  Your "point"
here is a complete non-point.

You're completely welcome to take the minimal CD, a stage3 tarball, and
wget and build your own Universal CD.  You're also more than welcome to
fire up catalyst and build a Universal CD yourself.  What you are *not*
welcome to do is try to tell me how I'm going to spend the time that I
volunteer to Gentoo.  Now, if you would like to hire me to build a
Universal CD, then contact me and we can discuss my compensation.
Otherwise, I have more important things (to me) to spend my time doing.

> > See, what *you* seem to be missing is that we're trying to provide a
> > better environment for our users.  The LiveCD is *not* just an
> > installation medium anymore.  It is a full-fledged Gentoo environment.
> > It can be used for showcasing Gentoo, as well as system recovery *and*
> > installation.
> 
> There's a thing called self-reference criteria. It's anathema in marketing. If 
> you think you know what is best for your users, you will all of your users 
> and thus most of your employees. Your users know what is best for them, *not* 
> you, as you are not a user (whether you have it installed on your desktop 
> notwithstanding you are *not* a user). If your users still want a Universal 
> LiveCD, then the onus is on Gentoo to provide one.

I'm sorry, but I'm calling bullshit on this one.

Release Engineering has a constant problem of not having enough help.
Now some people want to try to tell us that we need to do more work just
because they don't like a little change.  Well guess what, never going
to happen.

It's pretty simple.  So long as we have limited resources, we're going
to spend our limited time on what *we* want to spend time doing.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 07:40:53 -0400 Kari Hazzard
<karimarie@mail.rit.edu> wrote:
| "If the tool forces the user to do things a particular way, then the
| tool is working against, rather than for, the user.

That doesn't mean that the user is using the right tool. If you're
trying to nail something to a wall, complaining because your bicycle
can't do it doesn't mean the bicycle is somehow defective.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh
Mail                : ciaranm at ciaranm.org
Web                 : http://ciaranm.org/
as-needed is broken : http://ciaranm.org/show_post.pl?post_id=13


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Peter Weber]

You've wrote sth. about more content and a stage3 on the LiveDVD, or
not?!



On Mon, 2006-10-09 at 17:50 -0400, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> On Mon, 2006-10-09 at 20:42 +0200, Peter Weber wrote:
> > Hello, I am very glad to here that a complet networkless install via a
> > stage3 on the dvd without the installer would be possible again!
> 
> I never said that.
> 
> > > At any rate, the next release will allow a user to *very* easily to
> > > networkless installs *without* requiring them use the installer itself.
> > > I will have this documented by that time, so there's no need to fret
> > > over it.
> 

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Alec Warner]

Kari Hazzard wrote:
> On Thursday 05 October 2006 10:48 am, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
>> What about *our* choice to not waste time building things we don't want?
> 
> So what about those of us who DO want that? Forcing us into an installer is 
> more constricting and gives us less freedom--That's not the Gentoo way.
> 
> "If the tool forces the user to do things a particular way, then the tool is 
> working against, rather than for, the user. We have all experienced 
> situations where tools seem to be imposing their respective wills on us. This 
> is backwards, and contrary to the Gentoo philosophy." - Daniel Robbins
> 

While I like that quote; I think we are a long way from the times when 
it applied to what Gentoo was.

Gentoo is at it's core a metadistribution; it is *those* tools to which 
I believe Daniel is speaking of in that statement.  Obviously I can't 
make a liveCD that will satisfy everyone; there is no point in trying to 
do so.  However I can give you a tree and catalyst and all the parts you 
need to build your own.  That is what we call "enabling" and is really 
what I think his whole point was.

>> See, what *you* seem to be missing is that we're trying to provide a
>> better environment for our users.  The LiveCD is *not* just an
>> installation medium anymore.  It is a full-fledged Gentoo environment.
>> It can be used for showcasing Gentoo, as well as system recovery *and*
>> installation.
> 
> There's a thing called self-reference criteria. It's anathema in marketing. If 
> you think you know what is best for your users, you will all of your users 
> and thus most of your employees. Your users know what is best for them, *not* 
> you, as you are not a user (whether you have it installed on your desktop 
> notwithstanding you are *not* a user). If your users still want a Universal 
> LiveCD, then the onus is on Gentoo to provide one.

I concur with Donnie here; Gentoo exists not because of Users, but 
because of (a subset of active) Developers.  It isn't a statement that 
is meant to trash users (because you are quite helpful in many 
instances).  But the naive thought that Gentoo revolves around users 
is....well, naive.  Gentoo was here before there were thousands of 
users, in the unlikely event that you all switch distros, Gentoo will 
probably still be here.

We try to incorporate feedback from users because we are trying to make 
our work coincide with that feedback.  Sometimes this is possible; many 
times it is not possible.  Generally more Users = larger pool of Devs, 
and more Devs = more cool stuff going on here.

To make another argument; if I go buy a RHEL3 box set and then complain 
because the liveCD doesn't have some key programs (lets say 
cryptsetup-luks statically compiled so I can boot off of a USB key and 
encrypt my / partition), is the onus on them to release a new CD just 
for me?  Hell I'm a paying customer!  But they don't care.  And you 
aren't even required to pay for Gentoo at all!  So why do you expect more?

-Alec
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Caleb Cushing]

I would like to state my opinion on this... debate. the installer for
me... is inadequate it does not allow for nearly enough customization.
I generally keep my boot partitions at 32 MB why? because I don't need
anymore space than that( I have never even used half that much). I
optomize my ext3 partions using tune2fs as well.  I also have a
seperate partition for portage and distfiles. also not supported.
fortunately my network works. however I would prefer myself not to
have to dowload tarballs which seem to only be updated on the next
release anyway. I am hoping that one day that the GLI will support
full customization, but I won't complain as long as I can get stage3
tarballs.

as far as older than i686 I do have 1 or 2 i586s that I have gentoo
on. I would like to see a generic tarball kept around for anything
older than i686. because gentoo is one of the few distributions I've
been able to get working on older systems. It would be really sad to
see such support go.
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Mon, 9 Oct 2006 19:11:47 -0400 "Caleb Cushing"
<xenoterracide@gmail.com> wrote:
| I would like to state my opinion on this... debate. the installer for
| me... is inadequate it does not allow for nearly enough customization.

Then don't use the installer.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh
Mail                : ciaranm at ciaranm.org
Web                 : http://ciaranm.org/
as-needed is broken : http://ciaranm.org/show_post.pl?post_id=13


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Caleb Cushing]

umm... I don't that was the point (that it can't work for everyone).
However it would be nice if I didn't have to download a tarball.

I see the point in why it's hard with distfiles but how hard would it
be to add  tarballs and limited distfiles. to a "minimal cd) and make
it universal and put it up for download? maybe and make a note in the
handbook "distfiles are not supported" or some such. I really don't
understand why this is so difficult? the tarballs wouldn't be changing
from the ones that are on the mirrors. so what is the hangup? I doubt
it's storage space and  bandwidth. (btw I've built livecds using
catalyst)

On 10/9/06, Ciaran McCreesh <ciaranm@ciaranm.org> wrote:
> On Mon, 9 Oct 2006 19:11:47 -0400 "Caleb Cushing"
> <xenoterracide@gmail.com> wrote:
> | I would like to state my opinion on this... debate. the installer for
> | me... is inadequate it does not allow for nearly enough customization.
>
> Then don't use the installer.
>
> --
> Ciaran McCreesh
> Mail                : ciaranm at ciaranm.org
> Web                 : http://ciaranm.org/
> as-needed is broken : http://ciaranm.org/show_post.pl?post_id=13
>
>
>
>
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Kari Hazzard]

The point is that if you build Gentoo to be developer-friendly rather than 
user-friendly, Gentoo will be replaced by something else.

User-centric design is why Gentoo is/was different from everything else. Take 
away choices that people want and you take the Gentoo philosophy out of 
Gentoo itself.

Kari Hazzard

On Monday 09 October 2006 5:45 pm, Donnie Berkholz wrote:
> That's only true if you assume Gentoo developers are in this for the
> users and not for themselves and their own personal satisfaction.
>
> Thanks,
> Donnie
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Kari Hazzard]

On Monday 09 October 2006 6:30 pm, Alec Warner wrote:
> I concur with Donnie here; Gentoo exists not because of Users, but
> because of (a subset of active) Developers.  It isn't a statement that
> is meant to trash users (because you are quite helpful in many
> instances).  But the naive thought that Gentoo revolves around users
> is....well, naive.  Gentoo was here before there were thousands of
> users, in the unlikely event that you all switch distros, Gentoo will
> probably still be here.

It will not, however, have anywhere near as many developers, nor will it have 
more than a fraction of the resources now available to it. Users are the 
reason people sponsor Gentoo, users are the reason people know Gentoo exists, 
whether you realise it or not.

> To make another argument; if I go buy a RHEL3 box set and then complain
> because the liveCD doesn't have some key programs (lets say
> cryptsetup-luks statically compiled so I can boot off of a USB key and
> encrypt my / partition), is the onus on them to release a new CD just
> for me?  Hell I'm a paying customer!  But they don't care.

Well, that's simply bad customer service.

Don't constrict your support organ because someone else's support organ 
operates poorly. That doesn't help anyone, not users, not devs.



In any event, when was the decision made to kill the Universal LiveCD for x86 
and replace it with the installer? I'd like to read the discussion.


Kari Hazzard
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Simon Stelling]

Roy Bamford wrote:
> Dropping support for x86 <i686 is a debate we need to have some time I 
> suppose, its a question of when.
> 
> There is clearly only a few users, besides myself using systems that 
> old, since there were very few forums posts about the original 2006.1 
> x86 media not workign on P1 and AMD k6 based systems.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who is using a pentium mmx as a router, so 
you better think twice about it :P

-- 
Kind Regards,

Simon Stelling
Gentoo/AMD64 developer
-- 
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[gentoo-dev] Re: Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Duncan]

Peter Weber <peterle@hottemptation.org> posted
1160431074.6362.9.camel@party.homenetwork, excerpted below, on  Mon, 09
Oct 2006 23:57:54 +0200:

> It was only a suggestion, not a decision. Of course, there are only a
> little number of this early systems.
> i686 would be really nice, i386 would be nice, too ;-)

Anybody doing Gentoo on even a Pentium original is going to be compiling
for awhile unless they do GRP only, and that's inadvised as GRP isn't
security updated until the next release, six months later!  A couple years
ago when I first started with Gentoo and was on the main user list, I
believe I saw a thread where a couple folks claimed to have done it on 486
mainly to be able to say they'd done so, taking weeks of course to do it,
even compiling 24/7, but a 386?  IMO there are better ways to spend your
years...  <g>

Personally, I'd say 686 is the lowest reasonable to support at this point.
Below that, try an appropriate binary distribution and save the days/weeks
of compiling.  Of course, Gentoo is highly customizable, and folks could
try it on 386 if they wanted, but I don't believe it's worth supporting
below 686 at this point.  That's personally.  I'm sure there are folks
that would argue we should at least support 586, but I simply don't
believe it's worth it.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Roy Marples]

On Tuesday 10 October 2006 11:13, Duncan wrote:
> Personally, I'd say 686 is the lowest reasonable to support at this point.
> Below that, try an appropriate binary distribution and save the days/weeks
> of compiling.  Of course, Gentoo is highly customizable, and folks could
> try it on 386 if they wanted, but I don't believe it's worth supporting
> below 686 at this point.  That's personally.  I'm sure there are folks
> that would argue we should at least support 586, but I simply don't
> believe it's worth it.

There are plently of people using VIA C3 class chips which are i586 in their 
home servers because they are cheap, but more importantly very quiet as they 
don't require CPU fans.

-- 
Roy Marples <uberlord@gentoo.org>
Gentoo/Linux Developer (baselayout, networking)
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Jens Pranaitis]

Am Tue, 10 Oct 2006 10:13:41 +0000 (UTC)
schrieb "Duncan" <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net>:

> 
> Anybody doing Gentoo on even a Pentium original is going to be
> compiling for awhile unless they do GRP only, and that's inadvised as
> GRP isn't security updated until the next release, six months later!

Don't forget that you can easily create binary packages on a different
machine and then share them across a network. At least that's what I'm
doing here with my i486 machines :)

-- 
Jens Pranaitis
Oberhausen, Germany
JID: hans_maulwurf@jabber.org
GPG Hash: FBEB CC96 1781 197C 539E 2DFA 3E2D 80E0 F4F7 45F4

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[gentoo-dev] Re: Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Duncan]

Kari Hazzard <karimarie@mail.rit.edu> posted
200610090740.54261.karimarie@mail.rit.edu, excerpted below, on  Mon, 09
Oct 2006 07:40:53 -0400:

> On Thursday 05 October 2006 10:48 am, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
>> What about *our* choice to not waste time building things we don't want?
> 
> So what about those of us who DO want that? Forcing us into an installer
> is more constricting and gives us less freedom--That's not the Gentoo way.

What many often forget is that the Gentoo devs are all volunteers. 
Forcing a volunteer to do /anything/ is... problematic.  If they don't
want to do it, they simply quit volunteering.

By the same token, if it's volunteers that are doing it, they are
obviously interested in what they are doing.  Gentoo's reasonably open
(some would say /too/ open) to developers starting their own projects,
contributing to Gentoo whatever it is they are interested in, and also
quite open to folks becoming developers if they put their mind and effort
into it. If enough users want something the volunteer devs aren't doing,
one way or another, /someone/ will pick it up and run with it.  That's
what the FLOSS community is all about, really, the ability/empowerment to
take code and form it into what /you/ want, if you don't like the way the
existing project is managing things.  If enough users want it, it /will/
happen, because either some of them will become devs and volunteer the
time to /make/ it happen, or they'll become devs and fork Gentoo if
necessary to make it happen, or in the event none of them are skilled
enough to do it personally, they'll invest as necessary to ensure someone
else does it.  A single user might not be able to do it without the
skills if he likewise lacks funds, but a group of users working together
certainly could.  After all, if this wasn't possible, none of what
presently exists in the community /would/ presently exist.  It'd all
still be a dream in a few guys' heads.

Additionally, as already mentioned by others, Gentoo even empowers you to
do it yourself by providing the same tools that Gentoo itself uses,
catalyst and the like, so you don't even have to start from scratch to do
it.  Use the minimal and catalyst and roll your own.  While Gentoo can't
be all things to all people -- that can't be what choice in this context
means, as it's impossible -- it /can/ and /does/ provide the tools, as a
metadistribution, that allow you to roll your own variation on the theme,
if you find that more convenient than using the choices Gentoo /does/
provide.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Wernfried Haas]

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On Tue, Oct 10, 2006 at 10:13:41AM +0000, Duncan wrote:
> Personally, I'd say 686 is the lowest reasonable to support at this point.
> Below that, try an appropriate binary distribution and save the days/weeks
> of compiling.  

Bollocks. I run a print/samba/backup box at work which is a pentium II
400. Compiling glibc takes 3 hours here and while it may not be the
fastest box around it is enough to fulfill its duty. It also beats my
desktop (a pentium 3 866) every time i do upgrade operations involving
recompiling (bigger parts of) the system, simply because it has way
less packages installed (e.g. no X, mozilla-*, openoffice, etc). So
basically i should probably switch over my desktop if it was about
compile times - but honestly i don't care about them a lot
anyway. Also, there is no binary distribution i find as attractive as
Gentoo and know how to manage that well.

> Of course, Gentoo is highly customizable, and folks could
> try it on 386 if they wanted, but I don't believe it's worth supporting
> below 686 at this point.  That's personally.  I'm sure there are folks
> that would argue we should at least support 586, but I simply don't
> believe it's worth it.

Which kind of support are you speaking of? As for installation media,
i really don't care. I fully agree <i686 is dying out and if the
release media is built built for i686 only i have no problem with that
either. If you really want to put Gentoo on a i586 there are a other
ways to do it, too, but i don't think we should stop supporting i586
in general.

cheers,
	Wernfried

-- 
Wernfried Haas (amne) - amne at gentoo dot org
Gentoo Forums: http://forums.gentoo.org
IRC: #gentoo-forums on freenode - email: forum-mods at gentoo dot org

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[gentoo-dev] Re: Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Duncan]

Roy Marples <uberlord@gentoo.org> posted
200610101119.46556.uberlord@gentoo.org, excerpted below, on  Tue, 10 Oct
2006 11:19:46 +0100:

> There are plently of people using VIA C3 class chips which are i586 in
> their home servers because they are cheap, but more importantly very quiet
> as they don't require CPU fans.

Good points both you and Jens.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Andrew Gaffney]

Wernfried Haas wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 10, 2006 at 10:13:41AM +0000, Duncan wrote:
>> Personally, I'd say 686 is the lowest reasonable to support at this point.
>> Below that, try an appropriate binary distribution and save the days/weeks
>> of compiling.  
> 
> Bollocks. I run a print/samba/backup box at work which is a pentium II
> 400. Compiling glibc takes 3 hours here and while it may not be the

Uhh, P2 is i686, which falls squarely into the realm of "supported" and 
"reasonable" :)

-- 
Andrew Gaffney                            http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
Gentoo Linux Developer                                   Installer Project
Today's lesson in political correctness:      "Go asphyxiate on a phallus"
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Andrew Gaffney]

Simon Stelling wrote:
> Roy Bamford wrote:
>> Dropping support for x86 <i686 is a debate we need to have some time I 
>> suppose, its a question of when.
>>
>> There is clearly only a few users, besides myself using systems that 
>> old, since there were very few forums posts about the original 2006.1 
>> x86 media not workign on P1 and AMD k6 based systems.
> 
> I'm sure I'm not the only one who is using a pentium mmx as a router, so 
> you better think twice about it :P

But when was the last time you reinstalled it? :)

-- 
Andrew Gaffney                            http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
Gentoo Linux Developer                                   Installer Project
Today's lesson in political correctness:      "Go asphyxiate on a phallus"
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Wernfried Haas]

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On Tue, Oct 10, 2006 at 07:13:39AM -0500, Andrew Gaffney wrote:
> Uhh, P2 is i686, which falls squarely into the realm of "supported" and "reasonable" :)

Oh my goodness, i forgot to upgrade my cflags/chost/foo then when i
put the disk from the old pentium into this one then. Think of all
those optimizations! ;-)

cheers,
	Wernfried

-- 
Wernfried Haas (amne) - amne at gentoo dot org
Gentoo Forums: http://forums.gentoo.org
IRC: #gentoo-forums on freenode - email: forum-mods at gentoo dot org

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Seemant Kulleen]

On Mon, 2006-10-09 at 23:30 -0400, Kari Hazzard wrote:
> User-centric design is why Gentoo is/was different from everything else. Take 
> away choices that people want and you take the Gentoo philosophy out of 
> Gentoo itself.

If the design was in any way user-centric, then that was a side-effect
of the design being developer-centric.  The choices are all about
enabling development and developers. The Gentoo philosophy is about
empowerment -- we provide a platform for you to do what you want with
it.  That's our only promise, all the rest is just gravy.  Rel. Eng. and
others do what they do because, at its root, that's what they *want* to
do -- that's how they exercise their own empowerment.  Feel free to join
in the fray and exercise your own :)

Thanks,

-- 
Seemant Kulleen
Developer, Gentoo Linux

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Kari Hazzard]

Not going to happen. I'm many things, but a software developer is not one of 
them. I generally prefer to work on things like design and user psychology 
than actually being involved in the coding of it.

You don't want me producing code for the project, trust me on that one. >>

--
Kari Hazzard

On Tuesday 10 October 2006 10:28 am, Seemant Kulleen wrote:
> If the design was in any way user-centric, then that was a side-effect
> of the design being developer-centric.  The choices are all about
> enabling development and developers. The Gentoo philosophy is about
> empowerment -- we provide a platform for you to do what you want with
> it.  That's our only promise, all the rest is just gravy.  Rel. Eng. and
> others do what they do because, at its root, that's what they *want* to
> do -- that's how they exercise their own empowerment.  Feel free to join
> in the fray and exercise your own :)
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> Seemant Kulleen
> Developer, Gentoo Linux
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Stuart Herbert]

On 10/10/06, Seemant Kulleen <seemant@gentoo.org> wrote:
> If the design was in any way user-centric, then that was a side-effect
> of the design being developer-centric.  The choices are all about
> enabling development and developers. The Gentoo philosophy is about
> empowerment -- we provide a platform for you to do what you want with
> it.  That's our only promise, all the rest is just gravy.  Rel. Eng. and
> others do what they do because, at its root, that's what they *want* to
> do -- that's how they exercise their own empowerment.  Feel free to join
> in the fray and exercise your own :)

Or, to put it another way ...

... One aspect of the Gentoo Way(tm) is this: if you don't like how
part of Gentoo works, the thing to do is to volunteer to become a
developer, and work from the inside to change it.

Best regards,
Stu
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Grant Goodyear]

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Kari Hazzard wrote: [Mon Oct 09 2006, 10:30:40PM CDT]
> User-centric design is why Gentoo is/was different from everything
> else. Take away choices that people want and you take the Gentoo
> philosophy out of Gentoo itself.

Heh.  You might want to read drobbins' "Making the distribution"
articles (see http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/list.xml) sometime.  Many
of the original design decisions were intended to facilitate a very small
number of developers in assembling and maintaining a sizeable
meta-distribution.  I think many of those decisions were quite inspired,
but "user-centric" is a bit much, I think.

All that said, we're not really trying to make things vastly harder on
people.  Many of the complaining e-mails I've read in this thread have
complained without any specifics.  If instead they were to say "I'm
wondering how I'll do 'blah' w/ the new CD, could somebody let me know
the best way to do this", I suspect that everybody would be happier.

-g2boojum-
-- 
Grant Goodyear	
Gentoo Developer
g2boojum@gentoo.org
http://www.gentoo.org/~g2boojum
GPG Fingerprint: D706 9802 1663 DEF5 81B0  9573 A6DC 7152 E0F6 5B76

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Paul de Vrieze]

Duncan wrote:
> Anybody doing Gentoo on even a Pentium original is going to be compiling
> for awhile unless they do GRP only, and that's inadvised as GRP isn't
> security updated until the next release, six months later!  A couple years
> ago when I first started with Gentoo and was on the main user list, I
> believe I saw a thread where a couple folks claimed to have done it on 486
> mainly to be able to say they'd done so, taking weeks of course to do it,
> even compiling 24/7, but a 386?  IMO there are better ways to spend your
> years...  <g>
> 
> Personally, I'd say 686 is the lowest reasonable to support at this point.
> Below that, try an appropriate binary distribution and save the days/weeks
> of compiling.  Of course, Gentoo is highly customizable, and folks could
> try it on 386 if they wanted, but I don't believe it's worth supporting
> below 686 at this point.  That's personally.  I'm sure there are folks
> that would argue we should at least support 586, but I simply don't
> believe it's worth it.
> 
A couple of years ago (when we were still  using gcc-2.95 I used to run 
gentoo on my server machine which was a pentium-60 (with fdiv bug). 
While it took a while to compile the bigger packages it was certainly 
workable. I did it because I didn't have a better machine, not to be 
able to say I did it.

Paul
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Mon, 2006-10-09 at 19:50 -0400, Caleb Cushing wrote:
> from the ones that are on the mirrors. so what is the hangup? I doubt
> it's storage space and  bandwidth.

Uhh... it *is* storage space.

In fact, the space usage on our donated mirrors is one of the primary
motivators to have us decrease our space requirements, especially as
things seem to be increasing in size all on their own every release.

Not only that, but there's also the time required to build things and
test them.  The Universal CD has always been the one thing that was the
hardest to get tested.  With the amount and quality of testing that
we're receiving, we simply have to cut certain things.  No amount of
complaining will change this.  The only thing that will change it is for
us to get more *quality* testers.  We had 35+ "Release Testers" for
2006.1, of which, about 7 were providing quality feedback.  I don't know
if the rest even tested anything.

What it all boils down to is would you rather have a wide range of
shoddy release materials that may or may not work between different
releases, but "supports" all of the insane combinations of things you
would want to do, or would you rather have a few high quality release
materials that are well-tested?  Release Engineering has decided that
higher quality media is better than lots of diverse low-quality media,
and nobody is going to convince us otherwise.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Tue, 2006-10-10 at 10:13 +0000, Duncan wrote:
> Personally, I'd say 686 is the lowest reasonable to support at this point.

That's pretty much our target.

> Below that, try an appropriate binary distribution and save the days/weeks
> of compiling.  Of course, Gentoo is highly customizable, and folks could
> try it on 386 if they wanted, but I don't believe it's worth supporting
> below 686 at this point.  That's personally.  I'm sure there are folks
> that would argue we should at least support 586, but I simply don't
> believe it's worth it.

There's a difference between "support" and "ability".  You will retain
the ability to install on < i686 machines.  We just don't want to
support it.  This means we aren't going to be pushing out lots of new
media for them.

I have a set of legacy media that I plan on pushing out.  It is all
built with the 2006.1 snapshot.  The media is an installcd, a stage set
(stage1/2/3) for "x86" compiled against the no-nptl profile, a stage set
for "i586" compiled against the 2006.1 profile, and a stage set for
"i586" compiled against the no-nptl profile.  I don't plan on upgrading
these until we switch over to the new multiple-inheritance profiles, at
which point, I'll likely build a set of stages again for legacy
hardware.  The stages won't be supported, but they'll be available.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Tue, 2006-10-10 at 12:52 +0200, Wernfried Haas wrote:
> Bollocks. I run a print/samba/backup box at work which is a pentium II
> 400. Compiling glibc takes 3 hours here and while it may not be the

<snipping the rest since a Pentium 2 *is* i686>

> Which kind of support are you speaking of? As for installation media,
> i really don't care. I fully agree <i686 is dying out and if the
> release media is built built for i686 only i have no problem with that
> either. If you really want to put Gentoo on a i586 there are a other
> ways to do it, too, but i don't think we should stop supporting i586
> in general.

Nobody has said that.  So long as glibc/gcc/etc still work on i586,
we'll still provide the ability to use it on those machines.  That
doesn't mean we'll "support" it.  It's like GCC 2.x, which is still in
the tree.  It's there.  It's usable.  It's totally unsupported.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Paul Varner]

On Mon, 2006-10-09 at 23:30 -0400, Kari Hazzard wrote:
> The point is that if you build Gentoo to be developer-friendly rather than 
> user-friendly, Gentoo will be replaced by something else.
> 
> User-centric design is why Gentoo is/was different from everything else. Take 
> away choices that people want and you take the Gentoo philosophy out of 
> Gentoo itself.

However, all developers are users first.  If you have an itch to scratch
that the current development team isn't meeting, then get involved.
There are lots of ways to do that.

Regards,
Paul
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Mon, 2006-10-09 at 23:30 -0400, Kari Hazzard wrote:
> The point is that if you build Gentoo to be developer-friendly rather than 
> user-friendly, Gentoo will be replaced by something else.

...and?  You seem to think that Gentoo being "developer-friendly" would
be a change in the current way we do things.

> User-centric design is why Gentoo is/was different from everything else. Take 
> away choices that people want and you take the Gentoo philosophy out of 
> Gentoo itself.

I can tell you that in the three years that I've been a developer, not
once have I done "user-centric" design.  I have always done what I think
is the best way to do something.  I am not alone, I know.  It's pretty
simple.  We design a system that *we* want to use.  If others benefit
from it, then great.

Apparently, this works pretty well since we have thousands upon
thousands of users.

> On Monday 09 October 2006 5:45 pm, Donnie Berkholz wrote:
> > That's only true if you assume Gentoo developers are in this for the
> > users and not for themselves and their own personal satisfaction.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Wernfried Haas]

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On Tue, Oct 10, 2006 at 12:28:10PM -0400, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> > Which kind of support are you speaking of? As for installation media,
> > i really don't care. I fully agree <i686 is dying out and if the
> > release media is built built for i686 only i have no problem with that
> > either. If you really want to put Gentoo on a i586 there are a other
> > ways to do it, too, but i don't think we should stop supporting i586
> > in general.
> 
> Nobody has said that.  So long as glibc/gcc/etc still work on i586,
> we'll still provide the ability to use it on those machines.  That
> doesn't mean we'll "support" it.  It's like GCC 2.x, which is still in
> the tree.  It's there.  It's usable.  It's totally unsupported.

That's exactly what i can perfectly live with (i do even have a real
i586 box that's not a pentium 2 ;-) ), thanks for clearing it up.

cheers,
	Wernfried

-- 
Wernfried Haas (amne) - amne at gentoo dot org
Gentoo Forums: http://forums.gentoo.org
IRC: #gentoo-forums on freenode - email: forum-mods at gentoo dot org

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Christian Birchinger]

On Tue, Oct 10, 2006 at 10:13:41AM +0000, Duncan wrote:
> Personally, I'd say 686 is the lowest reasonable to support at this point.
> Below that, try an appropriate binary distribution and save the days/weeks
> of compiling.  Of course, Gentoo is highly customizable, and folks could
> try it on 386 if they wanted, but I don't believe it's worth supporting
> below 686 at this point.  That's personally.  I'm sure there are folks
> that would argue we should at least support 586, but I simply don't
> believe it's worth it.

There are CPUs like VIA C3 which don't have support for cmov and
i think gcc asumes that cmov is present if march is i686. Don't
know if this changed now.

I wouldn't like if i couldn't install Gentoo on my 800Mhz C3
machines anymore because something like -march=i686 is being used.

Maybe it's a radical point of view but i think generic i386 or
maybe i486 binaries are enough for a boot CD and stages. Almost
everyone will rebuild the stuff anyway. And i don't think there's
a huge speed loss until the binaries are rebuilt.

Christian
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Jon Portnoy]

On Tue, Oct 10, 2006 at 10:40:01AM -0400, Kari Hazzard wrote:
> Not going to happen. I'm many things, but a software developer is not one of 
> them. I generally prefer to work on things like design and user psychology 
> than actually being involved in the coding of it.
> 
> You don't want me producing code for the project, trust me on that one. >>
> 

Perhaps get involved in userrel then?

Plenty of ways to get involved without necessarily producing code 
directly

-- 
Jon Portnoy
avenj/irc.freenode.net
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-dev] Re: Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Duncan]

Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@gentoo.org> posted
1160497461.10595.12.camel@inertia.twi-31o2.org, excerpted below, on  Tue,
10 Oct 2006 12:24:21 -0400:

> There's a difference between "support" and "ability".  You will retain the
> ability to install on < i686 machines.  We just don't want to support it. 
> This means we aren't going to be pushing out lots of new media for them.
> 
> I have a set of legacy media that I plan on pushing out.  It is all built
> with the 2006.1 snapshot.  The media is an installcd, a stage set
> (stage1/2/3) for "x86" compiled against the no-nptl profile, a stage set
> for "i586" compiled against the 2006.1 profile, and a stage set for "i586"
> compiled against the no-nptl profile.  I don't plan on upgrading these
> until we switch over to the new multiple-inheritance profiles, at which
> point, I'll likely build a set of stages again for legacy hardware.  The
> stages won't be supported, but they'll be available.

That's exactly the sort of thing I had in mind.  Not supported means lower
priority or even roll your-own install media (or simply bootstrap Gentoo
from some other distribution), and that it's considered acceptable to
close bugs (at Gentoo package maintainer prerogative, of course) related to
586 or lower as WONTFIX, NOTABUG, or NEEDINFO (in this case, a patch, no
patch, no fix, patch, happy to).

As was pointed out by someone from embedded recently, due to its
flexibility, people install Gentoo based systems on all sorts of stuff, as
long as there's a GCC or the like and a kernel that supports it (not said
but what I read into it). Older x86 would be no exception, and might
in fact continue to be supported to some extent thru embedded (if they
want to take it on, of course).  In fact, from what I've read, pentium
class x86 is quite a popular solution for certain embedded applications,
so that would be a rather logical way to go.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

-- 
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[gentoo-dev] Re: Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Duncan]

Paul de Vrieze <pauldv@gentoo.org> posted 452BB22D.30106@gentoo.org,
excerpted below, on  Tue, 10 Oct 2006 16:46:05 +0200:

> A couple of years ago (when we were still  using gcc-2.95 I used to run
> gentoo on my server machine which was a pentium-60 (with fdiv bug). While
> it took a while to compile the bigger packages it was certainly workable.
> I did it because I didn't have a better machine, not to be able to say I
> did it.

Well yes, except that I'd guess that was a bit more than a couple of years
ago (I've been on Gentoo since 2004.0/2004.1, and IIRC it was gcc-3.3
then, so 2.95 would have been what, at least three years ago??).  That
means the archs are a third(-ish) of a decade further out of date than
they were then.  That's a significant amount of time in computer terms.

Anyway, not supported doesn't mean can't do it.  As I suggested in a
different reply, it could and would likely still be done, just as Gentoo
based systems are run on all sorts of stuff according to embedded, and in
fact they may choose to continue some support, as I believe pentium-class
embedded is quite popular.  Not supported just means less frequent install
media or bootstrapping from other distributions instead of Gentoo install
media, and that bugs can be closed if desired and appropriate, based on
that alone.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Caleb Cushing]

I fear the idea that valid bugs may be closed do to a -march=i586.
release media should not have to be tuned to i386. perhaps thes older
machines shouldn't be a priority, but that doesn't mean they should
become completely unsupported. if a general move to i686 is desired
perhaps the archs should split x86 and i686 or some such. and
applications that are unable to be supported on < i686 be removed from
the x86 tree.

On 10/11/06, Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> wrote:
> Paul de Vrieze <pauldv@gentoo.org> posted 452BB22D.30106@gentoo.org,
> excerpted below, on  Tue, 10 Oct 2006 16:46:05 +0200:
>
> > A couple of years ago (when we were still  using gcc-2.95 I used to run
> > gentoo on my server machine which was a pentium-60 (with fdiv bug). While
> > it took a while to compile the bigger packages it was certainly workable.
> > I did it because I didn't have a better machine, not to be able to say I
> > did it.
>
> Well yes, except that I'd guess that was a bit more than a couple of years
> ago (I've been on Gentoo since 2004.0/2004.1, and IIRC it was gcc-3.3
> then, so 2.95 would have been what, at least three years ago??).  That
> means the archs are a third(-ish) of a decade further out of date than
> they were then.  That's a significant amount of time in computer terms.
>
> Anyway, not supported doesn't mean can't do it.  As I suggested in a
> different reply, it could and would likely still be done, just as Gentoo
> based systems are run on all sorts of stuff according to embedded, and in
> fact they may choose to continue some support, as I believe pentium-class
> embedded is quite popular.  Not supported just means less frequent install
> media or bootstrapping from other distributions instead of Gentoo install
> media, and that bugs can be closed if desired and appropriate, based on
> that alone.
>
> --
> Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
> "Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
> and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman
>
> --
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Wed, 2006-10-11 at 12:18 -0400, Caleb Cushing wrote:
> I fear the idea that valid bugs may be closed do to a -march=i586.

If they're a bug dealing with an issue only present on < i686, then yes,
they likely would be, at least for release media, unless you also
provide a patch.  This is what being "unsupported" means.  Now, if you
give me a patch for some bug that only affects < i686, I'll apply it,
provided it doesn't break >= i686, but I simply don't have the time to
support < i686 with the release media anymore.

By the way, the stage1 tarball and Minimal InstallCD are both built as
"i386" and will remain that way for the foreseeable future.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Jason Stubbs]

On Tuesday 10 October 2006 03:45, Kari Hazzard wrote:
> On Monday 09 October 2006 6:30 pm, Alec Warner wrote:
> > I concur with Donnie here; Gentoo exists not because of Users, but
> > because of (a subset of active) Developers.  It isn't a statement that
> > is meant to trash users (because you are quite helpful in many
> > instances).  But the naive thought that Gentoo revolves around users
> > is....well, naive.  Gentoo was here before there were thousands of
> > users, in the unlikely event that you all switch distros, Gentoo will
> > probably still be here.
>
> It will not, however, have anywhere near as many developers, nor will it
> have more than a fraction of the resources now available to it. Users are
> the reason people sponsor Gentoo, users are the reason people know Gentoo
> exists, whether you realise it or not.

You miss the point entirely. Unpaid software authors do it because they want 
to use the software themselves. Those authors that publish their source 
generally do so because they see it as an overall waste of time for the 
proverbial wheel to be reinvented by others. I'd say they also do it because 
they are happy in the thought that 9 times out of 10 they'll find some other 
author has published source to achieve a new goal of their own saving them 
from having to reinvent the wheel themselves.

So how does this fit in with sponsors and volumnuous resources? Well, it 
doesn't. But then, it was never meant to. So called "end users" that don't 
give back to the project (giving resources is a way of giving back, by the 
way) make of more than 99% of those that utilize the resources provided by 
sponsors. Sponsoring is essentially payed advertising that wasn't done with 
dollars (or yen, etc) and has a generally high risk return.

If referring to the "sponsor a dev" program, it's still a similar give-take 
scenario. It either falls into the above scenario (that is, a lesser funded 
dev needs highly supported hardware to continue his regular work, gets it and 
blogs about it) or it falls into the category of poorly supported hardware - 
or both categories. In the case of the latter category, the dev is likely 
just looking for the learning experience when taking the hardware and 
building up support for it. It's all about win-win situations.

I don't know what the original post was about. I only read this one because
"I concur with Donnie here" caught my eye. But whatever was being asked for in 
the original post (I'm assuming that this sub-thread started with somebody 
asking for something?), would the dev get anything back for satisfying the 
request other than a less stressful time perusing their inbox?

> > To make another argument; if I go buy a RHEL3 box set and then complain
> > because the liveCD doesn't have some key programs (lets say
> > cryptsetup-luks statically compiled so I can boot off of a USB key and
> > encrypt my / partition), is the onus on them to release a new CD just
> > for me?  Hell I'm a paying customer!  But they don't care.
>
> Well, that's simply bad customer service.
>
> Don't constrict your support organ because someone else's support organ
> operates poorly. That doesn't help anyone, not users, not devs.

The initial premise for Alec's argument above is just wrong as when you go out 
and buy a RHEL3 box set you're not actually buying the software contained 
within. What you're buying is a set of installation CDs and an X month/year 
support contract. When you purchase Gentoo CDs, you're buying a set of 
installation CDs only. When you're downloading Gentoo, you're not purchasing 
anything.

I'll try to answer your response to his invalid point, though. Whichever 
product you buy, the licenses for the software contained therein almost never 
place any requirements on the licenser, rather only on the licensee. This is 
true even when it comes to Microsoft, Apple, etc. If you actually go and read 
most of the commercial licenses, it boils down to "This software is provided 
AS IS - except that you can't make copies, resell, use on more than one 
computer or by more than one person, etc."

> In any event, when was the decision made to kill the Universal LiveCD for
> x86 and replace it with the installer? I'd like to read the discussion.

I have a feeling the discussion took place about 18 months ago on -core, but 
I'm not sure as to the answer to this.

--
Jason Stubbs
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Jason Stubbs]

On Tuesday 10 October 2006 03:45, Kari Hazzard wrote:
<stuff/>

After writing the last response, another thought came to mind that I figured I 
should post - and should probably be set out in a "user's guide to posting on 
dev mailing lists".

I had the thought that users likely feel that it's okay to repeatedly post 
arguments for their point of view because they often see developers doing it. 
There is a very obvious parallel between users and developers in these 
threads in that both are lazy and thus want things done their own way in 
order to make their lives easier.

The important difference is that (usually :/) at least some of the developers 
of each point of view are willing to implement the whole lot themselves. What 
they are arguing about is how much effort they see will be needed in the long 
term. Even in the case where a developer with a conflicting point of view is 
not willing to do the work now, the developer will argue for the point of 
view as they can see themselves having to redo it later on anyway.

In the open source world, the driving theme is that there is often something 
good enough to not require reinventing the wheel but, in the end, "if you 
want a job done right, you've got to do it yourself."

--
Jason Stubbs
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Caleb Cushing]

I know what unsupported means chris. what I'm referring to though are
bugs that would affect i686 as well. but possibly get closed because a
dev, like yourself, requested emerge --info and saw it was build on <
i686 and closes it for that reason. probably RESOLVED WONTFIX .

On 10/11/06, Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Wed, 2006-10-11 at 12:18 -0400, Caleb Cushing wrote:
> > I fear the idea that valid bugs may be closed do to a -march=i586.
>
> If they're a bug dealing with an issue only present on < i686, then yes,
> they likely would be, at least for release media, unless you also
> provide a patch.  This is what being "unsupported" means.  Now, if you
> give me a patch for some bug that only affects < i686, I'll apply it,
> provided it doesn't break >= i686, but I simply don't have the time to
> support < i686 with the release media anymore.
>
> By the way, the stage1 tarball and Minimal InstallCD are both built as
> "i386" and will remain that way for the foreseeable future.
>
> --
> Chris Gianelloni
> Release Engineering Strategic Lead
> Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
> Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee
> Gentoo Foundation
>
>
>
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Peter Weber]

Hi, im sorry about "creating" a flamewar. But their are a view points
that disturb me really:

- The same installtion (networkless!) possibilites should be offered to
the people who install via the shell (the oldschool an most often used
way i believe), the ncurses-installer and the gtk-installer. I
personally think a real Stage-3 would be the best, but it would be also
good enough to have the possiblity to use the so called
"voodoo-scripts".

We are Gentoo, not Windows, let us the Shell, Please don't play the role
of the "Force" and the "Clickadventure-Community". There is often not
only one right way, regluary their are more. One on the Shell, NCURSES,
QT, GTK and something between that over a totally other subset of
librarys and programs ;-)

The best way to solve problems, is a clear communication over officall
channels like the gwn.

- Just because a developer thinks it is good, it isn't good. Just
because a User think it is good, it isn't good.

If there are to less testers/volunters - here I'am! I will do what I can
in my possiblities for Gentoo and the Community. Give me the the link to
the next release, I will take a look on it.

- Gentoo isn't User-Centric. Gentoo isn't Developer-Centric.

Gentoo is used by a lot of users, because the love the system behind the
CFLAGS/USEFLAGS and PORTS. Gentoo is used by a lot of developers,
because the love the system behind the CFLAGS/USEFLAGS and PORTS, it is
perfect for Coders. A lot of Users become also Developers.


Your User, who try to become sb. who move sth.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Thu, 2006-10-12 at 20:06 +0200, Peter Weber wrote:
> - The same installtion (networkless!) possibilites should be offered to
> the people who install via the shell (the oldschool an most often used
> way i believe), the ncurses-installer and the gtk-installer. I
> personally think a real Stage-3 would be the best, but it would be also
> good enough to have the possiblity to use the so called
> "voodoo-scripts".

I'm going to repeat myself exactly once more, then I'm flagging this
entire thread to /dev/null.

I'm not interested in supporting anything other than what we currently
support.  I'm not interested in spending any more of my *volunteer* time
supporting an installation method that I consider antiquated and
bug-ridden.  I am sick of wasting *my* time supporting the countless
bugs from the old networkless capabilities.  No amount of discussion
will change this.  If you want to change my mind, you are more than
welcome to initiate negotiations on my compensation for not only
building the required media, but also supporting it.  You are also free
to build the media and support it yourself.  If you're unwilling to
either pay me to do this, or do it yourself, then I simply don't care.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Luca Barbato]

Do not top post, is rude.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top-posting

Peter Weber wrote:
> You seem to think that the discussion is around you, and your work :-)
> 
> It is about Gentoo, please keep this in mind. Nobody says YOU have to
> make the work, or that you are doing sth. wrong. You could do the job,
> but you don't must do anything/everything alone. You want that Gentoo
> "needs" a internet-connection, and their should be now way to install
> Gentoo without access to the web?

He wants people quit annoying him about frivolous things.

> 
> Sorry, but simply: No. I'am complet againt this! I select OSS, because I
> want independence (from the web in this special chase). I accept your
> position, but I don't agree.

His position: "I won't do it, do yourself or pay."

> 
> On Question: Is their a howto, a script or a offical guidline how you or
> other gentoo-devs build the Universal-Disc's, what must be included an
> so on?

http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/releng/catalyst/

Regards.

-- 

Luca Barbato

Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC
http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero

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[gentoo-dev] Re: Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Duncan]

Peter Weber <peterle@hottemptation.org> posted
1160688721.26585.13.camel@party.homenetwork, excerpted below, on  Thu, 12
Oct 2006 23:32:01 +0200:

> You seem to think that the discussion is around you, and your work :-)
> 
> It is about Gentoo, please keep this in mind. Nobody says YOU have to
> make the work, or that you are doing sth. wrong. You could do the job,
> but you don't must do anything/everything alone. You want that Gentoo
> "needs" a internet-connection, and their should be now way to install
> Gentoo without access to the web?

But it /is/ around him and his work.  Check the release engineering
(releng) project page -- Chris G is project lead.  Thus, if you are
discussing Gentoo releases, you are by definition discussing his work.

Sure, he doesn't do it alone, but he's the project lead, and as such takes
the responsibility for the decisions and the bugs.  He's saying there were
too many bugs the old way and it's not coming back, he and the others are
volunteering, you aren't going to make him make them come back, as long as
that remains the case, because volunteers can't be forced to do
anything... they just quit volunteering if it comes to that.

Now you /can/ do several things to change that, if you don't like it. 
One, it's free software.  The tools are there.  You can build your own
(more on that below).  Two, if you are good at building such things (and
working with other volunteers), you can become a Gentoo developer and one
of those volunteers yourself, thereby ensuring the solution you want is
available to others by being part of it.   Three, in the event you aren't
skilled enough to do the second or even the first, you still have the
option of sponsoring someone who /does/ have those skills.  If you are
paying the bills, you call the shots.  It's no longer a volunteer
situation (tho of course someone can choose to contract for you or not,
but if you have the money, you can almost always find someone to work for
it).

> On Question: Is their a howto, a script or a offical guidline how you or
> other gentoo-devs build the Universal-Disc's, what must be included an
> so on? I found for Gentoo-2005 an unoffical Universal-Disc for x86, but
> it presents itselft as Minimal-CD a things like that. So it seems not to
> be a good example for me.

/Now/ we're getting somewhere. Participation is a /good/ thing, and
certainly possible even if you don't choose the commitment of being a
developer. =8^)

This isn't my area, but you'd start by merging catalyst and looking at
its documentation, since that's what Gentoo releng uses to build its own
release stages and CDs.  The releng project page has a bit more info
including a list of developers on the project, and links to the catalyst
subproject, with further links to the catalyst FAQ and reference manuals. 
Checking the IRC page, there's a gentoo-releng channel tho I don't see a
catalyst specific channel listed.  On the mailing list page there are
lists for both releng and catalyst listed.  That's what I found in about
five minutes browsing the Gentoo site, but I knew already where to look as
I already knew the general layout of the site and that catalyst was the
tool and releng the top level project, from hanging out here for a couple
years.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Caleb Cushing]

don't forget the gentoo-catalyst@lists.gentoo.org if you want I can
put together some spec files  that would build a universal cd for you.

I can understand chris's position. but it would be nice if he would
consider the development of  a script for the "livecd" that could
extract the stage4 on it and include documentation in the handbook on
how to do it. because as is the installers don't allow for enough
flexibility. I personally would like to know who decided to put bottom
and I think top partition size limits in the installer. the limits
should have been dictated by the filesystem limits themselves. my
system my choice. another option might be a "skip section" of the
installer." that way we can on do the stage4 part, and forget the rest
if we want. would any of this be such a hard and impossible thing for
releng to do and support?
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Preston Cody]

> I can understand chris's position. but it would be nice if he would
> consider the development of  a script for the "livecd" that could
> extract the stage4 on it and include documentation in the handbook on
> how to do it.

being done for next release.  i'm assuming you meant stage3 here.

> because as is the installers don't allow for enough flexibility.

on the contrary, most of our problems in the installer come from
offering too much flexibility.

I personally would like to know who decided to put bottom
> and I think top partition size limits in the installer. the limits
> should have been dictated by the filesystem limits themselves.

partition limits are decided by the size of the drive and the other
partitions on it.

> another option might be a "skip section" of the
> installer." that way we can on do the stage4 part, and forget the rest
> if we want. would any of this be such a hard and impossible thing for
> releng to do and support?

this support already exists.  the installer has modes for stage4 and
chroot installations.

-Codeman
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Caleb Cushing]

> partition limits are decided by the size of the drive and the other
> partitions on it.

really that seems impossible. GLI told me I couldn't have a boot
partion smaller than ~50MB it complained about it. and I think I
remember it complaining less because I was able to continue ... about
having 140GB /home partition it only wanted to make.... a 20GB
partition. but it absolutely would not do 32MB boot partion I have. it
was like giving me a negative number, I assumed these are features not
bugs.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Andrew Gaffney]

Caleb Cushing wrote:
>> partition limits are decided by the size of the drive and the other
>> partitions on it.
> 
> really that seems impossible. GLI told me I couldn't have a boot
> partion smaller than ~50MB it complained about it. and I think I
> remember it complaining less because I was able to continue ... about
> having 140GB /home partition it only wanted to make.... a 20GB
> partition. but it absolutely would not do 32MB boot partion I have. it
> was like giving me a negative number, I assumed these are features not
> bugs.

That's not an installer imposed limit. It's a limitation of the slider bar used 
for choosing the size. I haven't figured out how to decouple it from the entry 
fields while still making it useful if you want to use it. Patches are welcome.

As for the 20GB partition, I have no idea. Perhaps that's a limit imposed by 
libparted, but it's not a limit that *I* put into the code.

-- 
Andrew Gaffney                            http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
Gentoo Linux Developer                                   Installer Project
Today's lesson in political correctness:      "Go asphyxiate on a phallus"
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Caleb Cushing]

> As for the 20GB partition, I have no idea. Perhaps that's a limit imposed by
> libparted, but it's not a limit that *I* put into the code.

don't remember much... it wasn't a limit. maybe that was when I tried
the gentoo suggested settings...

> Patches are welcome.

I'd help but I'm no dev. sys admin student/intern. about the only
thing I could do to help is testing, and in this case even that is
somewhat limited because I like gentoo because I don't have to install
all the time. in fact the only reason I reinstalled this last time is
because a windows machine with putty had been compromised. I feared my
linux system might have been compromised too. so I waited and
reinstalled on the next release.
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