[gentoo-dev] Session/.desktop WM compatibility, DM unification

[gentoo-dev] Session/.desktop WM compatibility, DM unification

[Dan Armak]

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Hi all,

Many WMs and DEs don't play nice with one another and don't always follow 
freedesktop.org rules. There's a bunch of open bugs (detailed below) and I'm 
sure I've missed some more.

Also, different DMs (kdm, xdm, gdm, ...) have a lot of unique or, conversely, 
duplicated or forked scripts which aren't DM-specific and so should only 
exist once.

I want to work on this, but cooperation between and changes to many WMs are 
required, so I'd like to hear from other people who are interested. These 
bugs all tend to get stuck, so I'm posting this to the list.

Currently a user cannot easily switch WMs or DMs (or use several 
interchangeably) without doing a lot of manual work to carry along settings 
that can and should be neutral. 

(When I say WMs, I sometimes mean entire DEs like KDE/gnome - basically 
whatever gets a session entry in a DM. Gnome can switch its actual WM easily 
enough; that's not my point.)

===== Bugs overview (probably missed some): =====

#89870: long story, summary: .desktop files are installed in different places. 
KDE only reads the KDE ones, Gnome only the Gnome ones (and both use a small 
common set). 

So each DE doesn't benefit from the other's apps (.desktop files aren't just 
for menus but also for e.g. services/actions on mimetypes/etc). 'Lightweight' 
WMs with a menu are forced to choose one of the above to display. (And if you 
merge both, the result is currently very ugly.)

#53517: xdm, kdm, gdm (don't know about entrance and such) each have their own 
set of a lot of configfiles: Xaccess, Xreset, Xservers, Xsession, Xsetup, 
Xstartup, Xwilling... Obviously bad.

Today some files are shared / not duplicated (gdm <-> xdm, kdm <-> xdm), but 
the work is not complete. It seems gdm only has its own Xsession now, and if 
people confirm this I can work on getting rid of all of kdm's separate files 
as well. BUT I still need cooperation here because there might be some 
features in kdm's files which would need to be merged into the common (xdm?) 
ones.

#26326: unifying scripts that run on X sessions startup/shutdown. A lot of 
non-WM-specific stuff, e.g. starting ssh/gpg agents, lives (often duplicated) 
in DM-specific or WM-specific scripts.

#14872: unifying DM session scripts, handling of ~/.xsession, etc. The bug is 
closed but I think some things mentioned there haven't been fixed.

Some other bugs which are assigned to specific teams like KDE would be fixed 
or helped along by a generic solution to the bugs above.

=============

P.S. in some of the cases above, e.g. #89870, some people have said that KDE 
is the real problem because it installs several fdo-like trees (eg 
of .desktop files or of icons), no two of which can coexist, and all of which 
are outside the main tree in /usr. This may be true in some cases, but if the 
latest version of KDE somehow magically appeared in /usr, non-KDE users 
wouldn't be happy either (#89870 again). That's exactly why I want to hear 
others' opinions and what people would like to see.

-- 
Dan Armak
Gentoo Linux developer (KDE)
Public GPG key: http://dev.gentoo.org/~danarmak/danarmak-gpg-public.key
Fingerprint: DD70 DBF9 E3D4 6CB9 2FDD  0069 508D 9143 8D5F 8951

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Session/.desktop WM compatibility, DM unification

[Paul de Vrieze]

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On Monday 27 March 2006 00:03, Dan Armak wrote:
> I want to work on this, but cooperation between and changes to many WMs
> are required, so I'd like to hear from other people who are interested.
> These bugs all tend to get stuck, so I'm posting this to the list.

I'm still interested in this, although I'm not currently working on any 
wm/de.

Paul

-- 
Paul de Vrieze
Gentoo Developer
Mail: pauldv@gentoo.org
Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Session/.desktop WM compatibility, DM unification

[foser]

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On Mon, 2006-03-27 at 00:03 +0200, Dan Armak wrote:
<snip>
> ===== Bugs overview (probably missed some): =====
> 
> #89870: long story, summary: .desktop files are installed in different places. 
> KDE only reads the KDE ones, Gnome only the Gnome ones (and both use a small 
> common set). 

This doesn't really fit in the WM/DM issue afaics. The fact just is that
the alternative installations roots Gentoo KDE uses aren't dealt with in
the eg. the menu config files.

> So each DE doesn't benefit from the other's apps (.desktop files aren't just 
> for menus but also for e.g. services/actions on mimetypes/etc). 'Lightweight' 
> WMs with a menu are forced to choose one of the above to display. (And if you 
> merge both, the result is currently very ugly.)

The xdg menu spec has sufficient capabilities of dealing with the amount
of .desktop files. We just haven't dealt with them because they aren't a
real issue yet because of the non-default KDE installation paths on
Gentoo.

> #53517: xdm, kdm, gdm (don't know about entrance and such) each have their own 
> set of a lot of configfiles: Xaccess, Xreset, Xservers, Xsession, Xsetup, 
> Xstartup, Xwilling... Obviously bad.
> 
> Today some files are shared / not duplicated (gdm <-> xdm, kdm <-> xdm), but 
> the work is not complete. It seems gdm only has its own Xsession now, and if 
> people confirm this I can work on getting rid of all of kdm's separate files 
> as well. BUT I still need cooperation here because there might be some 
> features in kdm's files which would need to be merged into the common (xdm?) 
> ones.

GDM has had just its own Xsession for a long time iirc. I think most
functionality provided by these other X* files are login manager (xdm?)
specific. The one real issue is Xsession.

> 
> #26326: unifying scripts that run on X sessions startup/shutdown. A lot of 
> non-WM-specific stuff, e.g. starting ssh/gpg agents, lives (often duplicated) 
> in DM-specific or WM-specific scripts.

This is the core of the problem, this needs to be fixed

> #14872: unifying DM session scripts, handling of ~/.xsession, etc. The bug is 
> closed but I think some things mentioned there haven't been fixed.

This is sort of the same as #26326 .

I think the RH approach of using xinitrc.d as a place to unify startup
scripts is a workable solution. I'd like the X11 teams input on this
however, since the X11 /etc layout and history behind it is largely
unknown to me.

- foser

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Session/.desktop WM compatibility, DM unification

[Paul de Vrieze]

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>
> I think the RH approach of using xinitrc.d as a place to unify startup
> scripts is a workable solution. I'd like the X11 teams input on this
> however, since the X11 /etc layout and history behind it is largely
> unknown to me.

This would be a solution that could easilly be built upon with 
the /etc/xprofile and ~/.xprofile support. One might want to call 
it /etc/xprofile.d though.

Paul

-- 
Paul de Vrieze
Gentoo Developer
Mail: pauldv@gentoo.org
Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Session/.desktop WM compatibility, DM unification

[Donnie Berkholz]

foser wrote:
> I think the RH approach of using xinitrc.d as a place to unify startup
> scripts is a workable solution. I'd like the X11 teams input on this
> however, since the X11 /etc layout and history behind it is largely
> unknown to me.

I agree that this is a good idea and I've thought about it some in the 
past, but I don't like diverging much from upstream. If we can get a 
patch that's suitable to commit to X.Org CVS, that would be great.

Thanks,
Donnie
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Session/.desktop WM compatibility, DM unification

[Dan Armak]

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On Monday 27 March 2006 16:55, foser wrote:
> On Mon, 2006-03-27 at 00:03 +0200, Dan Armak wrote:
> <snip>
>
> > ===== Bugs overview (probably missed some): =====
> >
> > #89870: long story, summary: .desktop files are installed in different
> > places. KDE only reads the KDE ones, Gnome only the Gnome ones (and both
> > use a small common set).
>
> This doesn't really fit in the WM/DM issue afaics. The fact just is that
> the alternative installations roots Gentoo KDE uses aren't dealt with in
> the eg. the menu config files.
It's not the only issue. Another issue is that non-KDE, e.g. Gnome, users (at 
least the #89870 submitter, and it seemed to me some other commenters agreed) 
don't want KDE apps in their menu. So even if there was just one KDE version  
and it was installed in /usr, there would be a problem.

Cf the original #89870 bugreport and comments starting at #38.

Assume the install prefix problem is fixed somehow. What items are displayed 
in each WM's menu?

Option 1: KDE only displays KDE apps, Gnome only Gnome apps. How do we decide 
what is displayed in both ('neutral' apps)? Can the user edit the menu, and 
include some things we don't include by default, in a WM-neutral way? What 
should WMs other than KDE and Gnome display by default?

Option 2: always display everything. Problems: huge menu. KDE and Gnome and 
others use different categorization. A change of the status quo, so user 
community should get a chance to veto. And when using descriptions as primary 
menu text (e.g. 'Text editor' instead of 'kwrite'/'gedit') some KDE and Gnome 
programs have similar or identical descriptions, which looks bad to new 
users.

Either way, not just menu items are involved but all .desktop files. E.g., 
mimetype descriptions/icons/handlers/action for graphical file managers. And 
descriptions of various services, although I can't think of an example of 
crossdesktop use offhand.

> GDM has had just its own Xsession for a long time iirc. I think most
> functionality provided by these other X* files are login manager (xdm?)
> specific. The one real issue is Xsession.
Can anyone comment regarding entrance or any other DMs?

> > #14872: unifying DM session scripts, handling of ~/.xsession, etc. The
> > bug is closed but I think some things mentioned there haven't been fixed.
>
> This is sort of the same as #26326 .
OK. I thought I saw something unique there but can't find it now, I was 
probably wrong.

-- 
Dan Armak
Gentoo Linux developer (KDE)
Public GPG key: http://dev.gentoo.org/~danarmak/danarmak-gpg-public.key
Fingerprint: DD70 DBF9 E3D4 6CB9 2FDD  0069 508D 9143 8D5F 8951

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Session/.desktop WM compatibility, DM unification

[foser]

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On Mon, 2006-03-27 at 22:25 +0200, Dan Armak wrote:
> Assume the install prefix problem is fixed somehow. What items are displayed 
> in each WM's menu?
> 
> Option 1: KDE only displays KDE apps, Gnome only Gnome apps. How do we decide 
> what is displayed in both ('neutral' apps)
>  Can the user edit the menu, and 
> include some things we don't include by default, in a WM-neutral way? What 
> should WMs other than KDE and Gnome display by default?
> 
> Option 2: always display everything. Problems: huge menu. KDE and Gnome and 
> others use different categorization. A change of the status quo, so user 
> community should get a chance to veto. And when using descriptions as primary 
> menu text (e.g. 'Text editor' instead of 'kwrite'/'gedit') some KDE and Gnome 
> programs have similar or identical descriptions, which looks bad to new 
> users.

I'm aware of the issues surrounding menus, but the spec gives a lot of
options. As said, we haven't dealt with it, because it is not a snag
that we hit currently. 

I think we can basically have several menu setups fit for different
tasks/DEs and either let loginmanagers choose on startup or users choose
on install.

I don't know what the future plans are of KDE regarding it's slotting,
but if it intends to use syswide (fdo) specs like mime/icons the install
alternate root is going to be the main hurdle to tackle.

- foser

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Session/.desktop WM compatibility, DM unification

[Dan Armak]

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On Tuesday 28 March 2006 00:27, foser wrote:
> I'm aware of the issues surrounding menus, but the spec gives a lot of
> options. As said, we haven't dealt with it, because it is not a snag
> that we hit currently.
>
> I think we can basically have several menu setups fit for different
> tasks/DEs and either let loginmanagers choose on startup or users choose
> on install.
>
> I don't know what the future plans are of KDE regarding it's slotting,
> but if it intends to use syswide (fdo) specs like mime/icons the install
> alternate root is going to be the main hurdle to tackle.
If we make a system for selecting menu items. etc on a per-session basis, like 
you describe above, then I think we can easily support arbitrary additional 
install locations, specified in env.d or session files.

I like the idea, now we need to actually design and build such a system :-)

Do you think all fdo items should be controlled by it and not just menu items? 
Or should some things always be available (at least by default)? I'm in favor 
of making everything else available by default (services and so on) because 
1) I think it's easier using fdo specs - menu files already support filtering 
and 2) the main complaint against having everything in the menus is clutter, 
and that's not as big a problem with e.g. filemanager context menus.

-- 
Dan Armak
Gentoo Linux developer (KDE)
Public GPG key: http://dev.gentoo.org/~danarmak/danarmak-gpg-public.key
Fingerprint: DD70 DBF9 E3D4 6CB9 2FDD  0069 508D 9143 8D5F 8951

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Session/.desktop WM compatibility, DM unification

[Aron Griffis]

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Dan Armak wrote: [Mon Mar 27 2006, 03:25:04PM EST]
> Option 1: KDE only displays KDE apps, Gnome only Gnome apps. How do we decide 
> what is displayed in both ('neutral' apps)? Can the user edit the menu, and 
> include some things we don't include by default, in a WM-neutral way? What 
> should WMs other than KDE and Gnome display by default?
> 
> Option 2: always display everything. Problems: huge menu. KDE and Gnome and 
> others use different categorization. A change of the status quo, so user 
> community should get a chance to veto. And when using descriptions as primary 
> menu text (e.g. 'Text editor' instead of 'kwrite'/'gedit') some KDE and Gnome 
> programs have similar or identical descriptions, which looks bad to new 
> users.

Instead of choosing one or the other option, how about simply choosing
a default (and I'd suggest #2 personally, but that's just my opinion).
Then use an eselect module to allow system-level and user-level
customization regarding which classes to display in which places.

For example, there are Gnome, KDE and X progs, three classes at least.
(I know there are others; hopefully the design could handle an
arbitrary number.)  So it would be nice to be able to say:
    - In Gnome I want to see everything
    - In KDE I want to only see KDE stuff
    - but user "george" chooses to see everything in KDE

It sounds complex but maybe it could be made to work?

Aron

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Session/.desktop WM compatibility, DM unification

[Jakub Moc]

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Dan Armak wrote:
>> GDM has had just its own Xsession for a long time iirc. I think most
>> functionality provided by these other X* files are login manager (xdm?)
>> specific. The one real issue is Xsession.
> Can anyone comment regarding entrance or any other DMs?

Yeah, I can comment - using e17 here. entrance (the CVS version) is
broken :P and doesn't read/use any of them, you need to point it
manually via ecore_config to the session file where you put all the
commands you want to start. Also, its default config is broken for e17
because it points to /usr/bin/enlightenment while the actual binary is
called enlightenment-0.17. Oh well, that's what you get with live cvs
ebuilds. ;)

The desktop files are a real mess: e17genmenu reads a couple of
predefined locations automatically, otherwise you have to point it to an
unexpected location manually if you want those desktop items added.
Right now I have .desktop files scattered in:

/usr/share/applications
/usr/share/applnk/<category>
/usr/kde/<version>/share/applications/kde

(The last one is something I'd really like to get rid of completely.)

I'm avoiding gnome apps as much as possible, but there's definitely a
gnome-specific location for those as well. Benefit from this mess?
Negative for me, captain. Please, standardize this.

The same goes for icons locations - openoffice-bin installs png icons to
/usr/share/pixmaps (?!), firefox-bin installs icons to
/opt/firefox/icons, thunderbird-bin installs icons to
/opt/thunderbird/icons which might seem right but allas nothing can find
the icons in there and .desktop files are in /usr/share/applications anyway.

There are issues w/ mime-types etc. as well, but this mail is getting
long as it is, so leaving that for another one, perhaps.


-- 
Best regards,

 Jakub Moc
 mailto:jakub@gentoo.org
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