[gentoo-dev] default logger

[gentoo-dev] default logger

[Jan Kundrát]

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Hi,
our documentation [1] lists syslog-ng as the "default" system logger
while current profiles uses metalog (except embedded, default-macos/ppc,
default-darwin and sparc32). What should be changed, Handbook or profiles?

[1] http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/hb-install-tools.xml

TIA,
-jkt

-- 
cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth

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Re: [gentoo-dev] default logger

[Henrik Brix Andersen]

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On Tue, Sep 27, 2005 at 10:31:04AM +0200, Jan Kundrát wrote:
> our documentation [1] lists syslog-ng as the "default" system logger
> while current profiles uses metalog (except embedded, default-macos/ppc,
> default-darwin and sparc32). What should be changed, Handbook or profiles?

I think we should recommend syslog-ng over metalog, both in
documentation and in profiles, due to the fact that most software,
howtos and tutorials expect the system log to be located in
/var/log/messages

Sincerely,
Brix
-- 
Henrik Brix Andersen <brix@gentoo.org>
Gentoo Metadistribution | Mobile computing herd

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Re: [gentoo-dev] default logger

[Paul de Vrieze]

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On Tuesday 27 September 2005 10:39, Henrik Brix Andersen wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 27, 2005 at 10:31:04AM +0200, Jan Kundrát wrote:
> > our documentation [1] lists syslog-ng as the "default" system logger
> > while current profiles uses metalog (except embedded, default-macos/ppc,
> > default-darwin and sparc32). What should be changed, Handbook or
> > profiles?
>
> I think we should recommend syslog-ng over metalog, both in
> documentation and in profiles, due to the fact that most software,
> howtos and tutorials expect the system log to be located in
> /var/log/messages

Isn't that more a matter of configuration than of logger. While I'm a 
syslog_ng user I'm fairly confident that metalog can write /var/log/messages 
too.

Paul

-- 
Paul de Vrieze
Gentoo Developer
Mail: pauldv@gentoo.org
Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net

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Re: [gentoo-dev] default logger

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Tue, 2005-09-27 at 10:39 +0200, Henrik Brix Andersen wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 27, 2005 at 10:31:04AM +0200, Jan Kundrát wrote:
> > our documentation [1] lists syslog-ng as the "default" system logger
> > while current profiles uses metalog (except embedded, default-macos/ppc,
> > default-darwin and sparc32). What should be changed, Handbook or profiles?
> 
> I think we should recommend syslog-ng over metalog, both in
> documentation and in profiles, due to the fact that most software,
> howtos and tutorials expect the system log to be located in
> /var/log/messages

Agreed.  It should be syslog-ng.  If nobody objects, I'll change it in
base/virtuals.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] default logger

[Brian Harring]

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On Tue, Sep 27, 2005 at 08:27:34AM -0400, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> On Tue, 2005-09-27 at 10:39 +0200, Henrik Brix Andersen wrote:
> > On Tue, Sep 27, 2005 at 10:31:04AM +0200, Jan Kundrát wrote:
> > > our documentation [1] lists syslog-ng as the "default" system logger
> > > while current profiles uses metalog (except embedded, default-macos/ppc,
> > > default-darwin and sparc32). What should be changed, Handbook or profiles?
> > 
> > I think we should recommend syslog-ng over metalog, both in
> > documentation and in profiles, due to the fact that most software,
> > howtos and tutorials expect the system log to be located in
> > /var/log/messages

Most software howtos, and tutorials about init scripts don't apply to 
_our_ init scripts.

Nor do any howtos/tutorials for other pkg formats, apply to _our_ pkg 
manager. ;)

> Agreed.  It should be syslog-ng.  If nobody objects, I'll change it in
> base/virtuals.

Objecting, obviously ;)

Basically... why?

I'm neither advocating being different to be different, nor following 
others so howtos about their stuff fit to ours.  I'm after 
the underlying reasons why general users should be using syslog-ng over 
metalog in contrast to the fact we've recommended metalog as long as 
I've been around.  That and I happen to like metalog's layout, 
strangely enough ;)

I'd rather see reasons listed as to why syslog-ng is a superior 
default for users who (most likely) don't care, then "we lack 
/var/log/messages" :)
~harring

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Re: [gentoo-dev] default logger

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Tue, 2005-09-27 at 11:57 -0500, Brian Harring wrote:
> Basically... why?
> 
> I'm neither advocating being different to be different, nor following 
> others so howtos about their stuff fit to ours.  I'm after 
> the underlying reasons why general users should be using syslog-ng over 
> metalog in contrast to the fact we've recommended metalog as long as 
> I've been around.  That and I happen to like metalog's layout, 
> strangely enough ;)

Actually, we've been recommending syslog-ng for *at least* the past two
releases.  The only thing that was never changed was the virtual.

> I'd rather see reasons listed as to why syslog-ng is a superior 
> default for users who (most likely) don't care, then "we lack 
> /var/log/messages" :)

Besides the /var/log/messages thing, which I think is a non-argument,
there is syslog-ng's ability to be usable by anyone.  It works great for
servers, it works great for desktops.  It works as a loghost.  It works
for remote logging.  Essentially, it has all of the features that users
would want.  It also has all of the features that administrators would
want.  It is flexible and powerful.

It has also been the recommended system logger since 2005.0 (I just
checked).

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] default logger

[Mike Frysinger]

On Tuesday 27 September 2005 01:29 pm, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> On Tue, 2005-09-27 at 11:57 -0500, Brian Harring wrote:
> > Basically... why?
> >
> > I'm neither advocating being different to be different, nor following
> > others so howtos about their stuff fit to ours.  I'm after
> > the underlying reasons why general users should be using syslog-ng over
> > metalog in contrast to the fact we've recommended metalog as long as
> > I've been around.  That and I happen to like metalog's layout,
> > strangely enough ;)
>
> Actually, we've been recommending syslog-ng for *at least* the past two
> releases.  The only thing that was never changed was the virtual.

because someone changed it doesnt mean it should have been changed

> > I'd rather see reasons listed as to why syslog-ng is a superior
> > default for users who (most likely) don't care, then "we lack
> > /var/log/messages" :)
>
> Besides the /var/log/messages thing, which I think is a non-argument,
> there is syslog-ng's ability to be usable by anyone.  It works great for
> servers, it works great for desktops.  It works as a loghost.  It works
> for remote logging.  Essentially, it has all of the features that users
> would want.  It also has all of the features that administrators would
> want.  It is flexible and powerful.

how exactly is this an argument for syslog ?  metalog has all these features 
(and more) except for remote logging ...
-mike
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] default logger

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Tue, 27 Sep 2005 13:47:49 -0400 Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org>
wrote:
| because someone changed it doesnt mean it should have been changed

Ok, for those who don't remember...

In the good old days, syslog-ng was the default. Then, for one of the
releases, the x86 team accidentally included metalog instead of
syslog-ng on the distfiles CD, so the default was changed over to make
the x86 networkless install documentation work (at the expense of the
archs that got it right). So, it's not a case of moving away from
metalog at all, it's a case of undoing a temporary change.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Vim, Shell tools, Fluxbox, Cron)
Mail            : ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web             : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm


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Re: [gentoo-dev] default logger

[Brian Harring]

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On Tue, Sep 27, 2005 at 01:47:49PM -0400, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> On Tuesday 27 September 2005 01:29 pm, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> > On Tue, 2005-09-27 at 11:57 -0500, Brian Harring wrote:
> > > I'd rather see reasons listed as to why syslog-ng is a superior
> > > default for users who (most likely) don't care, then "we lack
> > > /var/log/messages" :)
> >
> > Besides the /var/log/messages thing, which I think is a non-argument,
> > there is syslog-ng's ability to be usable by anyone.  It works great for
> > servers, it works great for desktops.  It works as a loghost.  It works
> > for remote logging.  Essentially, it has all of the features that users
> > would want.  It also has all of the features that administrators would
> > want.  It is flexible and powerful.
> 
> how exactly is this an argument for syslog ?  metalog has all these features 
> (and more) except for remote logging ...

Additionally, metalog (afaik) won't be depending on glib, like 
>=syslog-ng 1.9.

Keep in mind I'm talking only defaults here (iow, use whatever is best 
for your needs).

Re: it being a temporary change that should be undone, it's been 
around long enough I won't call it 'temporary' at this point.

Merits vs "well, we recommend/did this a while back and were going to 
reverse it" mainly.
~harring

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Re: [gentoo-dev] default logger

[Donnie Berkholz]

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Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
| Ok, for those who don't remember...
|
| In the good old days, syslog-ng was the default. Then, for one of the
| releases, the x86 team accidentally included metalog instead of
| syslog-ng on the distfiles CD, so the default was changed over to make
| the x86 networkless install documentation work (at the expense of the
| archs that got it right). So, it's not a case of moving away from
| metalog at all, it's a case of undoing a temporary change.

In the bad old days, metalog was the default. Then it got switched to
syslog-ng because people got confused as hell by metalog's buffering,
and there was no reason not to use a more capable logger that's
compatible with the traditional sysklogd, minus the annoying feature of
metalog.

FWIW, I think metalog's buffering disappeared a while back, at least by
default.

Thanks,
Donnie
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Re: [gentoo-dev] default logger

[Donnie Berkholz]

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Brian Harring wrote:
| Re: it being a temporary change that should be undone, it's been
| around long enough I won't call it 'temporary' at this point.

Oh, so if we screwed up a year ago, we shouldn't fix it. If you won't
call that temporary, I won't call this a good argument. =)

Thanks,
Donnie
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Re: [gentoo-dev] default logger

[Mike Frysinger]

On Tuesday 27 September 2005 02:59 pm, Donnie Berkholz wrote:
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> | Ok, for those who don't remember...
> |
> | In the good old days, syslog-ng was the default. Then, for one of the
> | releases, the x86 team accidentally included metalog instead of
> | syslog-ng on the distfiles CD, so the default was changed over to make
> | the x86 networkless install documentation work (at the expense of the
> | archs that got it right). So, it's not a case of moving away from
> | metalog at all, it's a case of undoing a temporary change.
>
> In the bad old days, metalog was the default. Then it got switched to
> syslog-ng because people got confused as hell by metalog's buffering,
> and there was no reason not to use a more capable logger that's
> compatible with the traditional sysklogd, minus the annoying feature of
> metalog.

ok, i thought that's how *i* remembered it :)

> FWIW, I think metalog's buffering disappeared a while back, at least by
> default.

yes, default metalog config file is unbuffered (and has been for a while), and 
the init script lets you switch between modes now on the fly so you dont have 
to send the kill signals yourself.  whether it's 'annoying' is certainly a 
matter of opinion :P, but from a technical aspect, buffering makes a lot of 
sense if the performance matters.
-mike
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] default logger

[Alec Warner]

Mike Frysinger wrote:

>On Tuesday 27 September 2005 02:59 pm, Donnie Berkholz wrote:
>  
>
>>Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
>>| Ok, for those who don't remember...
>>|
>>| In the good old days, syslog-ng was the default. Then, for one of the
>>| releases, the x86 team accidentally included metalog instead of
>>| syslog-ng on the distfiles CD, so the default was changed over to make
>>| the x86 networkless install documentation work (at the expense of the
>>| archs that got it right). So, it's not a case of moving away from
>>| metalog at all, it's a case of undoing a temporary change.
>>
>>In the bad old days, metalog was the default. Then it got switched to
>>syslog-ng because people got confused as hell by metalog's buffering,
>>and there was no reason not to use a more capable logger that's
>>compatible with the traditional sysklogd, minus the annoying feature of
>>metalog.
>>    
>>
>
>ok, i thought that's how *i* remembered it :)
>
>  
>
>>FWIW, I think metalog's buffering disappeared a while back, at least by
>>default.
>>    
>>
>
>yes, default metalog config file is unbuffered (and has been for a while), and 
>the init script lets you switch between modes now on the fly so you dont have 
>to send the kill signals yourself.  whether it's 'annoying' is certainly a 
>matter of opinion :P, but from a technical aspect, buffering makes a lot of 
>sense if the performance matters.
>-mike
>  
>
I think syslog-ng is a better logger, except the default configuration 
is pretty icky.  I would shoot for something better, even if it's in 
/usr/share.  I heard hardened's config is quite nice :)  At least 
provide an example of a config that sorts logging out into seperate 
files like most distro's do.
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] default logger

[Luca Barbato]

Chris Gianelloni wrote:

> 
> Agreed.  It should be syslog-ng.  If nobody objects, I'll change it in
> base/virtuals.
> 

I'd keep metalog as default OR fix the syslog-ng default configuration.

lu

-- 

Luca Barbato

Gentoo/linux Developer		Gentoo/PPC Operational Leader
http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero

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Re[2]: [gentoo-dev] default logger

[Jakub Moc]

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28.9.2005, 2:50:20, Alec Warner wrote:

>>
> I think syslog-ng is a better logger, except the default configuration 
> is pretty icky.  I would shoot for something better, even if it's in 
> /usr/share.  I heard hardened's config is quite nice :)  At least 
> provide an example of a config that sorts logging out into seperate 
> files like most distro's do.

What about this one?

http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/security/security-handbook.xml?part=1&chap=3#doc_chap4


-- 
Best regards,

 Jakub Moc
 mailto:jakub@gentoo.org
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[gentoo-dev] Re: default logger

[Michael Sterrett -Mr. Bones.-]

On Wed, 28 Sep 2005, Luca Barbato wrote:

> I'd keep metalog as default OR fix the syslog-ng default configuration.

There's nothing wrong with the default configuration.  I have intentionally
made it simple so that it is easy to understand and works well for a
desktop system.  There are several example configs available which might
be attractive to people and for advanced use, I expect that people will
want to modify syslog-ng.conf themselves.

Michael Sterrett
   -Mr. Bones.-
mr_bones_@gentoo.org
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Re: [gentoo-dev] default logger

[Sven Vermeulen]

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On Tue, Sep 27, 2005 at 11:57:26AM -0500, Brian Harring wrote:
> > Agreed.  It should be syslog-ng.  If nobody objects, I'll change it in
> > base/virtuals.
> 
> Objecting, obviously ;)
[...]
> I'd rather see reasons listed as to why syslog-ng is a superior 
> default for users who (most likely) don't care, then "we lack 
> /var/log/messages" :)

We've had metalog as the example log daemon in the Gentoo Handbook in the
past. Every time it was added, we got a nice bug about why metalog was a bad
default and syslog-ng should be used. 

I'm not on the I'net right now, but if you annotate the
[gentoo]/xml/htdocs/doc/en/handbook/hb-install-tools.xml file you'll see a
bunch of reasons over the past few changes.

Afaik, most architectures prefer syslog-ng.

Wkr,
      Sven Vermeulen

-- 
  Gentoo Foundation Trustee          |  http://foundation.gentoo.org
  Gentoo Documentation Project Lead  |  http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/gdp
  Gentoo Council Member  

  The Gentoo Project   <<< http://www.gentoo.org >>>

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Re: [gentoo-dev] default logger

[Martin Schlemmer]

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On Tue, 2005-09-27 at 13:05 -0500, Brian Harring wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 27, 2005 at 01:47:49PM -0400, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> > On Tuesday 27 September 2005 01:29 pm, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> > > On Tue, 2005-09-27 at 11:57 -0500, Brian Harring wrote:
> > > > I'd rather see reasons listed as to why syslog-ng is a superior
> > > > default for users who (most likely) don't care, then "we lack
> > > > /var/log/messages" :)
> > >
> > > Besides the /var/log/messages thing, which I think is a non-argument,
> > > there is syslog-ng's ability to be usable by anyone.  It works great for
> > > servers, it works great for desktops.  It works as a loghost.  It works
> > > for remote logging.  Essentially, it has all of the features that users
> > > would want.  It also has all of the features that administrators would
> > > want.  It is flexible and powerful.
> > 
> > how exactly is this an argument for syslog ?  metalog has all these features 
> > (and more) except for remote logging ...
> 
> Additionally, metalog (afaik) won't be depending on glib, like 
> >=syslog-ng 1.9.
> 
> Keep in mind I'm talking only defaults here (iow, use whatever is best 
> for your needs).
> 
> Re: it being a temporary change that should be undone, it's been 
> around long enough I won't call it 'temporary' at this point.
> 
> Merits vs "well, we recommend/did this a while back and were going to 
> reverse it" mainly.

How about we just use sysklogd ?  It does not depend on glib or any
other package that would not be pulled in by default in system profile.
It have a sane config.  It logs to /var/log/message, etc.  It supports
network logging.  Blah, blah ;p


-- 
Martin Schlemmer


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Re: [gentoo-dev] default logger

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Fri, 2005-09-30 at 17:09 +0200, Martin Schlemmer wrote:
> How about we just use sysklogd ?  It does not depend on glib or any
> other package that would not be pulled in by default in system profile.
> It have a sane config.  It logs to /var/log/message, etc.  It supports
> network logging.  Blah, blah ;p

I sure wouldn't have a problem with that.  It would also be more
"standard" as far as most Linux is concerned than anything else.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
x86 Architecture Team
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] default logger

[Jan Kundrát]

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On Tuesday 27 of September 2005 10:31 Jan Kundrát wrote:
> What should be changed, Handbook or profiles?

Any progress on this subject?

Cheers,
-jkt

-- 
cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth

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Re: [gentoo-dev] default logger

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Sat, 2005-10-08 at 00:30 +0200, Jan Kundrát wrote:
> On Tuesday 27 of September 2005 10:31 Jan Kundrát wrote:
> > What should be changed, Handbook or profiles?
> 
> Any progress on this subject?

No.  It doesn't look like any decision was made.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
x86 Architecture Team
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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