[gentoo-dev] Bugday Improvements

[gentoo-dev] Bugday Improvements

[Scott Shawcroft]

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You guys may have noticed or heard about additions to the staff by
kloeri.  I am one of the new devs.  GurliGebis has also joined
gentoo.  Our task is to take bugdays off of kloeri's hands.   With
kloeri's guidance we're brainstorming ways to increase the
effectiveness of bugdays.  Below are some of the ideas we've been
contemplating.  Please reply with comments, questions and
suggestions.  Take note that all of the changes are to the bugday
page.  No changes will be made to Bugzilla.

Goals
1. Build the Gentoo community both over the internet and in real life.
2. Increase user/developer coordination. i.e. More users fixing bugs.

Ideas
- - Have pre-bugday and post-bugday podcasts designed to present
information in an alternate form.
    The pre-bugday podcast would include how-tos/tips in addition to a
run down of the top bugs.
    The post-bugday podcast would include a debrief and highlight the
most effective bugday individuals and teams.
- - User logins using usernames and passwords from bugzilla.
- - In accordance with the above, user bug additions and voting on bugs
may also be supported.
    Note: no changes to bugzilla so lets not restart that discussion.
- - Classification of bugs by difficulty and language skills (if any)
required.
- - Reference links to helpful articles on languages relating to a bug.
- - Points awarded to users for solving bugs. These points are the also
the priority votes.
- - Association with bug hunting groups/teams which either form over the
internet or in real life.
- - Event planner for real life bugday sessions.
- - IRC bot interface to new website.
- - New logo.

Upcoming events (Will be the timeline.)
August 6, 2005 - Gentoo Bugday
September 3, 2005 - Gentoo Bugday
October 1, 2005 - Gentoo Bugday
November 5, 2005 - Gentoo Bugday
December 3, 2005 - Gentoo Bugday

In addition to feedback on these ideas, I'd like to get some feedback
on ways to improve bugdays for developers.
Do you as a dev participate regularly?  Why or why not?
What could we do to improve the ease of bugdays?
What bottlenecks exist in closing bugs?

References
http://devwiki.gentoo.org/tiki-index.php?page=GentooBugDay
http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-352554-highlight-.html
http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-360582-highlight-.html
http://bugday.gentoo.org

Thats enough for now.  Thanks for your time.
~Scott Shawcroft (tannewt)
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Bugday Improvements

[Jonathan Smith]

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Scott Shawcroft wrote:
> - Have pre-bugday and post-bugday podcasts designed to present
> information in an alternate form.

i like it, but also make it available as an .mp3 or a more common format (i
know nothing about podcasting or if mplayer could play it ;-)

>     The pre-bugday podcast would include how-tos/tips in addition to a
> run down of the top bugs.
>     The post-bugday podcast would include a debrief and highlight the
> most effective bugday individuals and teams.
> - User logins using usernames and passwords from bugzilla.
> - In accordance with the above, user bug additions and voting on bugs
> may also be supported.

ok... but couldn't that get complicated? how are you going to sync the bugzy
and bday databases? is there an elegant way to do so?

would people be able to vote on _any_ bug, or just hose in a special list? if
the latter, who makes the list? on what criterion?

> - Classification of bugs by difficulty and language skills (if any)
> required.
> - Reference links to helpful articles on languages relating to a bug.
> - Points awarded to users for solving bugs. These points are the also
> the priority votes.

the problem i see is that easy bugs will simply be fixed by developers. the
more difficult bugs will be either swept under the carpet or passed to
maintainer-needed or bday.

> - Association with bug hunting groups/teams which either form over the
> internet or in real life.
> - Event planner for real life bugday sessions.
> - IRC bot interface to new website.
> - New logo.

all of this is nice in theory, but how are you going to accomplish it?
real-life bughunting? sounds a little like openbsd's hackathon, which would be
*GREAT*, except for the fact that i bet it would be mostly devs who would come.
on the other hand, i'm not sure that said fact is necessarily a problem.

> In addition to feedback on these ideas, I'd like to get some feedback
> on ways to improve bugdays for developers.
> Do you as a dev participate regularly?  Why or why not?

i know i'm a new dev, but i don't really participate. even when i was a user, i
didn't. maybe its because i simply did/do gentoo work whenever i feel like it,
but having a special day set asside seems odd to me.

> What bottlenecks exist in closing bugs?

time. time. time. we need more qualified devs imho.

occasionally user input. ex: if i can't reproduce and a user takes a month to
do something that should have taken a few seconds, it is hard to progress
quickly on the bug

- --

smithj

Gentoo Developer
[ desktop stuff && network monitoring && documentation ]


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Bugday Improvements

[Homer Parker]

On Mon, 2005-07-18 at 19:35 -0700, Scott Shawcroft wrote:
> What bottlenecks exist in closing bugs?

	Testing and time.. We have found on the amd64 team (and I hope ppc has
found the same) that ATs have been very helpful with testing, which
allows the devs to do other things.

-- 
Homer Parker
Gentoo/AMD64 Arch Tester Operational Lead
hparker@gentoo.org


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Bugday Improvements

[Scott Shawcroft]

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Jonathan Smith wrote:

> Scott Shawcroft wrote:
>
>> - Have pre-bugday and post-bugday podcasts designed to present
>> information in an alternate form.
>
>
> i like it, but also make it available as an .mp3 or a more common
> format (i know nothing about podcasting or if mplayer could play it
> ;-)

For the record, podcasts are a collection of audio files wrapped in an
RSS feed.

>
>> The pre-bugday podcast would include how-tos/tips in addition to
>> a run down of the top bugs. The post-bugday podcast would include
>> a debrief and highlight the most effective bugday individuals and
>> teams. - User logins using usernames and passwords from bugzilla.
>> - In accordance with the above, user bug additions and voting on
>> bugs may also be supported.
>
>
> ok... but couldn't that get complicated? how are you going to sync
> the bugzy and bday databases? is there an elegant way to do so?

The bugday database would hold additional bug information.  Not the
data found in bugzilla.  We get the available info from the bugzilla
DB.  The bugday DB is a supplement.

>
> would people be able to vote on _any_ bug, or just hose in a
> special list? if the latter, who makes the list? on what criterion?
>
They would 'vote' via either adding a bug id or adding a vote to an
existing bugday bug via a link.*

>
>> - Classification of bugs by difficulty and language skills (if
>> any) required. - Reference links to helpful articles on languages
>> relating to a bug. - Points awarded to users for solving bugs.
>> These points are the also the priority votes.
>
>
> the problem i see is that easy bugs will simply be fixed by
> developers. the more difficult bugs will be either swept under the
> carpet or passed to maintainer-needed or bday.

Could you explain this more?  What developers actively work on has no
direct link to bugdays.  First and foremost bugdays are to give
direction to users.  However, since users cannot commit changes, the
developers are involved.

>
>> - Association with bug hunting groups/teams which either form
>> over the internet or in real life. - Event planner for real life
>> bugday sessions. - IRC bot interface to new website. - New logo.
>
>
> all of this is nice in theory, but how are you going to accomplish
> it? real-life bughunting? sounds a little like openbsd's hackathon,
> which would be *GREAT*, except for the fact that i bet it would be
> mostly devs who would come. on the other hand, i'm not sure that
> said fact is necessarily a problem.

To see how well it works is yet to be seen.  However, it would be nice
to extend the community into actual meetings.  I believe (disclaimer)
that learning techniques for bughunting and the like could be better
learned in person.  Having multiple people in one location is more
effective and prevents bughunting from being too individual of an
experience when its really focused on community.

>
>> In addition to feedback on these ideas, I'd like to get some
>> feedback on ways to improve bugdays for developers. Do you as a
>> dev participate regularly? Why or why not?
>
>
> i know i'm a new dev, but i don't really participate. even when i
> was a user, i didn't. maybe its because i simply did/do gentoo work
> whenever i feel like it, but having a special day set asside seems
> odd to me.

Its not for everyone.  Once again, its also about the community.

>
>> What bottlenecks exist in closing bugs?
>
>
> time. time. time. we need more qualified devs imho.

I think bugdays are a way to groom more qualified devs.

>
> occasionally user input. ex: if i can't reproduce and a user takes
> a month to do something that should have taken a few seconds, it is
> hard to progress quickly on the bug

Right and bugdays could prevent these instances from being over a
month long.  It may also a way to bring more attention and knowledge
about bugzilla.

> --
>
> smithj
>
> Gentoo Developer [ desktop stuff && network monitoring &&
> documentation ]

* All of this is tenative.
~Scott
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[gentoo-dev] Re: Bugday Improvements

[Duncan]

Scott Shawcroft posted <42DC8745.40805@gentoo.org>, excerpted below,  on
Mon, 18 Jul 2005 21:53:25 -0700:

> Jonathan Smith wrote:
> 
>> Scott Shawcroft wrote:
>>
>>> - Have pre-bugday and post-bugday podcasts designed to present
>>> information in an alternate form.
>>
>>
>> i like it, but also make it available as an .mp3 or a more common format
>> (i know nothing about podcasting or if mplayer could play it ;-)
> 
> For the record, podcasts are a collection of audio files wrapped in an RSS
> feed.

Indeed.  I didn't know what podcasts were, either, until Linux Weekly News
covered them (and naturally, Linux applications for listening to
them, creating them was covered the week before) on the front page of the
July 7 edition.  Here's a direct link to the article:

Getting Started Listening to Podcasts, by Dan York
http://lwn.net/Articles/142754/

I haven't tried out any of the apps mentioned, yet, but I'm likely to, at
some point.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman in
http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/pub/a/linux/2004/12/22/rms_interview.html


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Bugday Improvements

[Jonathan Smith]

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Scott Shawcroft wrote:
> The bugday database would hold additional bug information.  Not the
> data found in bugzilla.  We get the available info from the bugzilla
> DB.  The bugday DB is a supplement.

your origional email said "User logins using usernames and passwords from
bugzilla." this implies that you would be porting the login db from bugzy to
b-day. perhaps i misread that, but if you use the same db for logins, how will
you keep the two synced? if i change my password on bugzy, would it be changed
on bday too?

> They would 'vote' via either adding a bug id or adding a vote to an
> existing bugday bug via a link.*

this again implies that you would need the bugzilla database. how else would
you keep track of which bug is which? iirc, jforman said it was about 1.7gb...
thats alot to manage in *two* places. this is more of a technical issue than a
problem with your plan, but i'm just wondering how you plan to do this.

>>>the problem i see is that easy bugs will simply be fixed by
>>>developers. the more difficult bugs will be either swept under the
>>>carpet or passed to maintainer-needed or bday.
> 
> 
> Could you explain this more?  What developers actively work on has no
> direct link to bugdays.  First and foremost bugdays are to give
> direction to users.  However, since users cannot commit changes, the
> developers are involved.

you said that bugs would be ranked by difficulty and users with experience "x"
could work on bugs of the same experience level. say, for instance, a user is
very new to gentoo, or at least to portage. if a dev gets a bug saying "package
x does not install doc y", the dev knows that all (s)he has to do is add y to
dodoc. consequently, the dev does it in a matter of seconds and the bug is gone.

if i understand correctly, developers add their own bugs to the bugday list.
since simple bugs like the above take just about as much time to solve as to
add to an arbitrary list, i don't see any easy bugs being added to bday for
newbie users to solve.

maybe i'm wrong, but thats how i would generally do things.

> To see how well it works is yet to be seen.  However, it would be nice
> to extend the community into actual meetings.  I believe (disclaimer)
> that learning techniques for bughunting and the like could be better
> learned in person.  Having multiple people in one location is more
> effective and prevents bughunting from being too individual of an
> experience when its really focused on community.

this is true. if you can manage to arrange it, and its not too far away (i'm
pretty poor :-), i'd love to come.

the sense of community would also be strengthened a good deal. i read an
article about obsd's hackathon, and it seems as if they are all one big group
of friends. maybe a stronger sense of community would cut down on some of the
silly arguments too...

>>>occasionally user input. ex: if i can't reproduce and a user takes
>>>a month to do something that should have taken a few seconds, it is
>>>hard to progress quickly on the bug
> 
> 
> Right and bugdays could prevent these instances from being over a
> month long.  It may also a way to bring more attention and knowledge
> about bugzilla.

well... if a user files a bug and the next bugday isn't for 3 weeks, that
doesn't seem to help much, unless i am misunderstanding you.

- --

smithj

Gentoo Developer
[ desktop stuff && network monitoring && documentation ]


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Bugday Improvements

[Scott Shawcroft]

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Jonathan Smith wrote:

> Scott Shawcroft wrote:
>
>> The bugday database would hold additional bug information. Not
>> the data found in bugzilla. We get the available info from the
>> bugzilla DB. The bugday DB is a supplement.
>
>
> your origional email said "User logins using usernames and
> passwords from bugzilla." this implies that you would be porting
> the login db from bugzy to b-day. perhaps i misread that, but if
> you use the same db for logins, how will you keep the two synced?
> if i change my password on bugzy, would it be changed on bday too?

We were thinking we'd verify passwords etc against the bugzilla DB.
No separate info, just supplemental info in the bugday DB.

>
>> They would 'vote' via either adding a bug id or adding a vote to
>> an existing bugday bug via a link.*
>
>
> this again implies that you would need the bugzilla database. how
> else would you keep track of which bug is which? iirc, jforman said
> it was about 1.7gb... thats alot to manage in *two* places. this is
> more of a technical issue than a problem with your plan, but i'm
> just wondering how you plan to do this.

When we add a bug to bugday it just tracks the ID.  The other info
like status etc. is taken from the bugzilla database.  If it helps, we
can and will be performing read only functions on the bugzilla database.

>
>>>> the problem i see is that easy bugs will simply be fixed by
>>>> developers. the more difficult bugs will be either swept
>>>> under the carpet or passed to maintainer-needed or bday.
>
>
>> Could you explain this more? What developers actively work on
>> has no direct link to bugdays. First and foremost bugdays are to
>> give direction to users. However, since users cannot commit
>> changes, the developers are involved.
>
>
> you said that bugs would be ranked by difficulty and users with
> experience "x" could work on bugs of the same experience level.
> say, for instance, a user is very new to gentoo, or at least to
> portage. if a dev gets a bug saying "package x does not install doc
> y", the dev knows that all (s)he has to do is add y to dodoc.
> consequently, the dev does it in a matter of seconds and the bug is
> gone.
>
> if i understand correctly, developers add their own bugs to the
> bugday list. since simple bugs like the above take just about as
> much time to solve as to add to an arbitrary list, i don't see any
> easy bugs being added to bday for newbie users to solve.
>
> maybe i'm wrong, but thats how i would generally do things.
>
The bugs will be added by the users.  Even now they are added by
people not associated with the bug, ie kloeri, GurliGebis, me and
others.  One of the lower levels of bughunting would be ebuild writing.

>> To see how well it works is yet to be seen. However, it would be
>> nice to extend the community into actual meetings. I believe
>> (disclaimer) that learning techniques for bughunting and the like
>> could be better learned in person. Having multiple people in one
>> location is more effective and prevents bughunting from being too
>> individual of an experience when its really focused on community.
>>
>
>
> this is true. if you can manage to arrange it, and its not too far
> away (i'm pretty poor :-), i'd love to come.
>
> the sense of community would also be strengthened a good deal. i
> read an article about obsd's hackathon, and it seems as if they are
> all one big group of friends. maybe a stronger sense of community
> would cut down on some of the silly arguments too...

Exactly.  Just don't consider the bugday real life events like
conferences.  More like your standard LUG.

>
>>>> occasionally user input. ex: if i can't reproduce and a user
>>>> takes a month to do something that should have taken a few
>>>> seconds, it is hard to progress quickly on the bug
>
>
>> Right and bugdays could prevent these instances from being over a
>> month long. It may also a way to bring more attention and
>> knowledge about bugzilla.
>
>
> well... if a user files a bug and the next bugday isn't for 3
> weeks, that doesn't seem to help much, unless i am misunderstanding
> you.

I realised that argument, "prevent these instances from being over a
month long".  With that said, I believe there are a lot of bugs just
sitting for over a month.  Hopefully bugdays would catch those.  Also,
the new bugday website will not be in operation just for bugdays.  It
will always be up and changing.

~Scott

>
> --
>
> smithj
>
> Gentoo Developer [ desktop stuff && network monitoring &&
> documentation ]
>
>
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