Re: [gentoo-dev] Too many mailing lists

[Ivan Yosifov <ivan@yosifov.net>]

Hi blubb,

> I receive about 120 Mails (spam not 
> counted) per day (all gentoo-related), and about 110 are relevant to me. 
> I really don't like the idea of receiving 250 Mails of which 110 are 
> relevant to me.

I agree that no one wants to get too much irrelevant mail. However if
there is a single dev list where improvements (and not user problems)
are discussed there will usually be several threads that just keep
growing. AFAIK Thunderbird (which you appear to be using) supports
message folding and threading. So if there are a dozen messages under
the XOrg message tree you can quickly tell that they are not for you. I
mean that just because there are 100 messages more , does not mean you
will need more than 10 seconds to filter them all.

> If you, as a PPC user have a security problem with a java plugin,it's 
> quite easy: File a bug, assign it to the herd you think it is the most 
> important to that bug and CC the others. Another example: We often get 
> bugs like "app-foo/bar-1.0 does not work on amd64" that are assigned to 
> amd64@gentoo.org. After having a look at the error log i see that it is 
> most likely a arch-independend bug and reassign it to the right herd/guy 
> and CC amd64@.

Ok , if concrete problems are discussed in the Bugzilla (the current
practice I believe) the less the chance you will get unwanted mail.

> *This* gentoo-dev isn't there for helping users with their problems. 

I agree. What I meant was that sometimes users have ideas about
improving Gentoo (apart from fix bug #####). And such ideas (i think)
are for gentoo-dev.

> The only purpose is to improve Gentoo. The respective mailing lists 
> (gentoo-ppc-user, gentoo-java and so on) are.

Mind your own example with app-foo/bar-1.0 on amd64. Most bugs (and
problems) are arch independent. Especially problems like "How do I use
this app" , or "where is this in the gnome menu". And these are the
problems a user is likely to ask help for. You can't expect form a user
to see the amd64 TCP/IP stack bug when all he knows is that gaim can not
connect. I believe that ppc,amd64,x86,etc users (and lists ) have more
experience to share than arch specific stuff. 

> time the more emails you get about stuff you aren't interested in. I 
> really don't care about java, and i don't care about hardened in general 
> (well, i care about them if it's a amd64-specific problem :))

I understand. However something currently going on the java list may
very well have to do with amd64 , and you may never know about it.

> In general, I agree with you, but I don't think that your solution
> will bring us the expected improvements.

Well , this is an RFC. Fell encouraged to suggest other schemes to
improve communication in the gentoo world.

Cheers,

Ivan Yosifov.

On Tue, 2004-12-07 at 13:01 +0100, Simon Stelling wrote:
> Hi Ivan,
> 
> Ivan Yosifov wrote:
> > Hello Everyone,
> > 
> > First of all - this is just an idea, if my impressions are wrong -
> > pardon. 
> > It is my impression that gentoo has way too many mailing lists wich by
> > themselves are not very active. For example I am a
> > gentoo-desktop-research subscriber for mounths and have not recived a
> > single message. 
> 
> Yes, we have a lot of mailing lists. No, most of them aren't that 
> active, but i don't care if there is much traffic. I fact, i thank God 
> there is not so much traffic. I receive about 120 Mails (spam not 
> counted) per day (all gentoo-related), and about 110 are relevant to me. 
> I really don't like the idea of receiving 250 Mails of which 110 are 
> relevant to me.
> 
> > I further believe that developer issues are always just developer
> > issues. A java-plugin can expose a browser bug. A ppc specific problem
> > my be a bug in the common kernel source. There is little reason for
> > having a dozen separate lists when the issues discussed on these lists
> > are related. As of now for a developer to have a full grasp of what
> > ideas are flying about and what problems bother the users most he has to
> > subscribe to ALL lists which is a lot of subscibe-me mails.
> 
> If you, as a PPC user have a security problem with a java plugin, it's 
> quite easy: File a bug, assign it to the herd you think it is the most 
> important to that bug and CC the others. Another example: We often get 
> bugs like "app-foo/bar-1.0 does not work on amd64" that are assigned to 
> amd64@gentoo.org. After having a look at the error log i see that it is 
> most likely a arch-independend bug and reassign it to the right herd/guy 
> and CC amd64@.
> 
> > Imagine a PPC user with security problem in the java plugin. Where can
> > he discus his problem ? On gentoo-desktop, gentoo-security, gentoo-dev,
> > gentoo-ppc-dev, gentoo-ppc-user, gentoo-java or somewhere else? Having
> > so many lists with so deeply connected topics is confusing and a waste
> > of valuable communication resources.
> 
> I agree, there are cases that are deeply connected, but i don't think a 
> gentoo-problems list would make it better, because you just can't read 
> every mail you get. You read what seems important to you, and that's it. 
> I don't want to filter 90% of the mails i get out and read the oder 10%, 
> finding out that only 5% are really what i wanted to read ;)
> 
> > I propose the following. There should be a gentoo-announce list for
> > GLSA,release announces and whatever everyone must be aware of. There
> > should be a gentoo-dev for all development related issues (users having
> > problems go here). And there should be a gentoo-user for users that need
> > guidance (like how do I do this,where is that...).
> 
> *This* gentoo-dev isn't there for helping users with their problems. The 
> only purpose is to improve Gentoo. The respective mailing lists 
> (gentoo-ppc-user, gentoo-java and so on) are.
> 
> > Naturally the traffic on the dev and user list can get high. But no one
> > forces the PPC dev to read the X.org threads so this should not be a
> > problem.
> 
> Sure. But it forces the PPC dev to filter them out, and that takes more 
> time the more emails you get about stuff you aren't interested in. I 
> really don't care about java, and i don't care about hardened in general 
> (well, i care about them if it's a amd64-specific problem :))
> 
> In general, I agree with you, but I don't think that your solution will 
> bring us the expected improvements.
> 
> Greetings,
> 
> blubb


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