From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 32462 invoked from network); 19 May 2004 14:09:00 +0000 Received: from smtp.gentoo.org (156.56.111.197) by parrot.ussg.indiana.edu with SMTP; 19 May 2004 14:09:00 +0000 Received: from parrot.ussg.indiana.edu ([156.56.111.196] helo=parrot.gentoo.org) by smtp.gentoo.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1BQRkf-0005yb-LT for arch-gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org; Wed, 19 May 2004 14:08:57 +0000 Received: (qmail 13626 invoked by uid 89); 19 May 2004 14:08:57 +0000 Mailing-List: contact gentoo-dev-help@gentoo.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@gentoo.org Received: (qmail 21536 invoked from network); 19 May 2004 14:08:57 +0000 From: foser To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org In-Reply-To: <20040519123036.GC23494%jmglov@jmglov.net> References: <200405180034.30388.stuart@gentoo.org> <200405181845.58966.stuart@gentoo.org> <20040518201628.703a7b34@sven.genone.homeip.net> <200405182108.42231.stuart@gentoo.org> <1084966200.9124.18.camel@rivendell> <20040519123036.GC23494%jmglov@jmglov.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-HW8u14aX4vQXFUBrnmtn" Message-Id: <1084975750.9822.13.camel@rivendell> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.5.7 Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 16:09:10 +0200 Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-web-user] Hardened PHP now in Gentoo X-Archives-Salt: 9cec34d3-a847-4759-819c-e12d2690a214 X-Archives-Hash: c7e5ca8dfcddb6992ff5f86eeba02338 --=-HW8u14aX4vQXFUBrnmtn Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 2004-05-19 at 08:30 -0400, Josh Glover wrote: > > Choice is an illusion, if you there's too much choice it is no use to > > anyone anymore, because nobody really knows what it is all about. This > > is already the case with the loads of USE flags/portage options/etc. we > > have. Gentoo shouldn't be about choice for the sake of it, it should be > > about simplicity/managability : stuff that works. It's a trade-off. >=20 > That is ridiculous. Speaking from personal experience, choice is exactly > what drew me to Gentoo--I could have it *just* how I wanted it. Thus, > choice is *not* an illusion, it is vital to many advanced users who > have chosen Gentoo for just that reason. You have the choice. The real power is the easy way in which you can adapt it to your needs and the simplicity of doing so. Huge loads of nobody-ever-uses them options don't help one bit. You should keep it basic for exactly the reason that anyone can adapt it easily. Adding layers of complexity leads to a system that needs time & effort to get into : you lose what you want, you lose the true power. Actually i consider 'advanced users' the people who have a basic system setup and adapted/created several ebuilds to their needs on top of that, not the ones who want an extra USE flag for everything under the sun. > The way to achieve "simplicity/managability : stuff that works" is > through reasonable defaults. Look at all the USE flags that xfree or > xemacs use. Quite a glut. However, the defaults are almost always what > I need. If I care enough, I can run 'equery uses' to find out what the > more esoteric flags do, and select or deselect flags based on that. You actually prove my point with your example. The defaults should be good enough, all the extra stuff is mostly cruft in 99.9% of the cases. That cruft therefore isn't necessary in the distro, keeping the playing field clean and open. Anyway, eg. xfree is all basic and understandable USE flags like they should be. You don't need no extra tools to explain what a USE flag does, but you say you need 'equery' to figure out the uses. That's exactly the thing i'm talking about : we already are starting to require extra info to make decisions. That is what should be avoided. We're creating tools to be able to work with our tools, thats in indication of going the wrong way. > If I want things to Just Work(TM), I accept the Gentoo defaults, > knowing that the devs would never lead me down the wrong path. :) Nuf said. - foser --=-HW8u14aX4vQXFUBrnmtn Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBAq2qF8WG+0iaGxDMRAji4AJ9fl6IQRUIYcnHiyzkoUXlL19LZHgCg2fpr fuuAoLosAqfnkSmeeG92qS0= =kYSI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-HW8u14aX4vQXFUBrnmtn--