[gentoo-dev] Good Work, Lads!

[gentoo-dev] Good Work, Lads!

[Stroller]

Since installing Gentoo I've been intending to learn enough bash to start
writing ebuilds, but somehow haven't managed to get around to it. I've been
reading gentoo-dev all that time, a couple of months now, although I've
rarely posted. I guess I'm an enthusiastic end-user, who has learned &
benefited much since first installing Gentoo.

With the flurry of posting over the last couple of days, I think it's a good
opportunity for me to say:
WELL DONE, ALL THE GENTOO DEVS. A DAMN GOOD JOB YOU'VE MADE OF A DISTRO.

Although I rarely contribute myself, I keep seeing the same topics coming up
here again & again:
  How about a different front-end / GUI for Portage or installation?
  How can we improve on the /usr/portage file tree?
  How about better descriptions?
  How about binaries..?
  This doesn't work for me. How do I fix it?
  When will 1.4 be ready?

With many of these questions, I can see that the helpful folks making the
suggestions haven't been subscribed to this list as long as I have, and I
can imagine it must be frustrating for the devs to have to say: "Well, we've
talked about that, we're working on it, just bear with us and we'll get it
done as soon as we can".

It must be a bummer for you guys when folks post "why don't we do it
differently", when they haven't undertaken large projects (I personally have
no concept of what is involved, but can only hazard a guess) and may not be
around in 3 months saying: "well, you remember that big suggestion I made a
while back... here's it is for you, the result of hours of work, ready to be
incorporated into the tree".

I personally don't give a damn when 1.4 is "released" (although I appreciate
others comments that it'll be a milestone for the Gentoo), and I would
imagine the mention of it in recent threads might be quite frustrating for
the devs; I can imagine that end-users asking when 1.4 will be ready is like
them saying "I don't care about all the hard work that you're putting into
this project, I'm interested in superficial stuff here".

And for anyone who thinks that a desktop manager like KDE or Gnome is an
essential part of a working Unix distribution... and that you "need"
binaries for anything beyond stage 3... well, *cough*...  luxury!.. tch!..
in my day we had to walk 3 miles in the snow, barefoot! We had to eat coal
for breakfast, then install Irix before class. Tch! Don't know they're born,
these kids with their fancy namby-pamby frambuffer logo'd bootable-CDs.

Anyway, I just wanted to post & say that there are some of us (I am sure
MANY of us) who aren't always so vocal, but who think that the Gentoo
development team are doing a great job. I think Gentoo is *exactly* on track
& focussed in the right direction.

Any time I see a good suggestion made here, I know that it's the sort of
thing that he dev team treat seriously, and which will be incorporated into
Gentoo, just as soon as other priorities are settled.

Many thanks, guys,

Stroller.




--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Good Work, Lads!

[Paul de Vrieze]

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>
> Many thanks, guys,
>
> Stroller.

One other suggestion, 

you seem to be mailing as root. If that is true, and your username is not 
aliassed to root, that is unsafe. One think making linux more resistant to 
viruses is that on linux most things do not run as root. E-mail clients 
certainly do not need to run as root.

Paul

-- 
Paul de Vrieze
Researcher
Mail: pauldv@cs.kun.nl
Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Good Work, Lads!

[Owen Gunden]

On Wed, Jun 25, 2003 at 09:09:03PM +0200, Paul de Vrieze wrote:
Content-Description: signed data
> you seem to be mailing as root. If that is true, and your username is not 
> aliassed to root, that is unsafe. One think making linux more resistant to 
> viruses is that on linux most things do not run as root. E-mail clients 
> certainly do not need to run as root.

Is this a troll?  Does it even deserve a reply?  *sigh*

Stroller may do what he wants with his machines.  He is a big boy.  

Did you ever consider the fact that he might be running as root on an old
machine that is used only for email and doesn't demand high security?  How
about a laptop that he runs as root for convenience and isn't secure,
because he keeps his data on another machine?  Or hell, he could be running
linux on his PDA and emailing you from there!  Does he care if that gets
hacked?  

Please mind your own business unless you know the details of what you're
criticising :).  *sheesh*.

Owen
(*ducks*)

--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Good Work, Lads! [OT]

[Sven Vermeulen]

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On Wed, Jun 25, 2003 at 04:52:09PM -0400, Owen Gunden wrote:
> Is this a troll?  Does it even deserve a reply?  *sigh*
[...]

Paul gave an advice which the OP can use or drop to his own needs. I
personally am gratefull that there are people like him that inform others
about these situations. If the OP has a valid reason for mailing as root,
then he will certainly *not* be offended by Paul's mail. And if he didn't
know about the security concerns, he will probably be gratefull for the
comment, or in the worst case ignore it.

Nevertheless, even if it was off-topic and probably should be mailed in
person instead of the mailinglist, it is still constructive.

Wkr,
	Sven Vermeulen

-- 
Thanks to DRM, you know that something has been built in environment of 
unspecified degree of security, from source you cannot check, written by 
programmers you don't know, released after passing QA of unknown quality and 
which is released under a license that disclaims any responsibility...

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Good Work, Lads!

[Spider]

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begin  quote
On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 21:09:03 +0200
Paul de Vrieze <pauldv@gentoo.org> wrote:
 
> you seem to be mailing as root. If that is true, and your username is
> not aliassed to root, that is unsafe. One think making linux more
> resistant to viruses is that on linux most things do not run as root.
> E-mail clients certainly do not need to run as root.
> 

Ill bash in, quoting a message that appeared in -user the other day:

----- 
On 16/6/03 1:01 pm, "Zack Gilburd" <zack@tehunlose.com> wrote:

> Please do not take the following offensively, I merely mean to provide
> you with constructive critcism.

Don't be silly. I always try not to let on when I'm offended.

> I've noticed that on your posts to the GUML, you advertise your want
> to be employed;

Gizza job, mister..!

>... However, I do not think
> it would be wise to advertise yourself as a sysadmin, then post to a
> ML with your root address.

Pardon..?

> IMHO, using root for *anything* except essential
> administrative tasks is risky and careless.

I most certainly agree. I rather like `sudo`, as it ensures that the
administrator must be conscious of each root-privileged action that he
takes- using `su` it is rather too easy to stay logged in as root for
longer than intended.

> If I were you, I would post from
> a different user than root.

Erm... but, of course, I do. I rather assumed that would be obvious.

> Again, please don't take the following
> offensively, but if I were in the market to employ a sysadmin, I would
> not hire you because of your seemingly reckless usage of the root
> account.

It's not really THAT seemingly, Sir:

  [silva:~] stroller% host stellar.eclipse.co.uk
  stellar.eclipse.co.uk mail is handled (pri=10) by
mx1.ex.eclipse.net.uk  stellar.eclipse.co.uk mail is handled (pri=20) by
mx2.ex.eclipse.net.uk  [silva:~] stroller% nslookup
stellar.eclipse.co.uk  Server:  gentoo.lan
  Address:  192.168.1.43

  *** No address (A) records available for stellar.eclipse.co.uk
  [silva:~] stroller%

As you can see, stellar.eclipse is virtually hosted. Is it really a risk
for me to post using this address..?

> I hope that this did not come off as rude in any way, I just want to
> offer my advice as a fellow Linux professional and sysadmin.

Glad to have received it. I shall certainly reconsider my posting
address - I do not wish the same address to be made in the futile.

Stroller.

------------------------------


Well, There goes that story :)

//Spider

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This is a .signature virus! Please copy me into your .signature!
See Microsoft KB Article Q265230 for more information.
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[gentoo-dev] I've Got Root Was: Re: [gentoo-dev] Good Work, Lads!

[Stroller]

> From: Spider <spider@gentoo.org>
> Organization: Chaotic
> Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 23:46:47 +0200
>
> begin  quote
> On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 21:09:03 +0200
> Paul de Vrieze <pauldv@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 
>> you seem to be mailing as root. If that is true, and your username is
>> not aliassed to root, that is unsafe. One think making linux more
>> resistant to viruses is that on linux most things do not run as root.
>> E-mail clients certainly do not need to run as root.
>> 
> 
> Ill bash in, quoting a message that appeared in -user the other day:
> 
> ----- 
>> ... 
>> If I were you, I would post from
>> a different user than root.
> 
> Erm... but, of course, I do. I rather assumed that would be obvious.
>...
> 
> [silva:~] stroller% host stellar.eclipse.co.uk
> stellar.eclipse.co.uk mail is handled (pri=10) by
> mx1.ex.eclipse.net.uk  stellar.eclipse.co.uk mail is handled (pri=20) by
> mx2.ex.eclipse.net.uk
> [silva:~] stroller% nslookup stellar.eclipse.co.uk
> Server:  gentoo.lan
> Address:  192.168.1.43
> 
> *** No address (A) records available for stellar.eclipse.co.uk
> [silva:~] stroller%
> 
> As you can see, stellar.eclipse is virtually hosted. Is it really a risk
> for me to post using this address..?

Yeah, I was really quite astonished by the previous message in respect to my
email address. I don't really know yet how to react to it, which is why I
haven't changed my addy.

I was initially quite offended that someone had mailed me to advise me "not
to read mail as root" - I felt quite patronised. Do people really do that..?

Whilst I didn't know any better than to log in as root the first week I had
my Indigo (my first Unix box purchased 2nd-hand for £30 from the Comp Sci
department) I've certainly never used the root account for reading mail,
surfing the web or anything besides essential system administration on any
working or live or network-connected machine.

I appreciate now that Mr Gilburd (who, as Spyder observes, mailed me on this
subject recently) and Paul were both well intentioned with their
suggestions, but this raises other questions to me.

If there really are folks out there reading mail from their root account (I
mean, _is this possible?_), surely we need to be educating them better..?

Maybe the NEED for a regular user should be spelled out more explicitly in
the Gentoo installation documents. I see now that the subject is rather
brushed over by a single line containing a link the the FAQ & the question
"Everyone seems to think that i shouldn't be using root for everyday use,
how can i add another user?"

Maybe superadduser should be part of the base stages installation..?
Instructions to `superadduser yournamehere` could be placed right before the
setting-root-password section of the installation guide; the root password
section could contain the explanation:
  "the root password is used in conjunction with the `su` command when you
   need to perform administrative tasks on your Gentoo box".
Since completion of a stage-3 install is intended to provide a complete, if
minimal, Gentoo-Linux installation, ISTM that adding a non-root user is
perhaps an essential, rather than an optional, part of the process.

I was really quite surprised when an redhat-newbie acquaintance recently
showed me it was possible to log in as root to the GUI on a modern Linux
system. I mean: why does the (kdm?) graphical login window permit this..?

The root address was originally a joke. Like on those "I've got root"
t-shirts at the GeekStore. When my ISP asked me what
address@hostname.eclipse.co.uk I wanted, of course "root" was a cool choice.
I see Spider is associated with a similar organisation.

So I don't know yet whether I'll be changing my address or not. I mean: I
like it. Why should I change it, just because it confounds people..?

Thanks for tolerating 2 long posts in one day,

Stroller.


--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-dev] [OT] Re: I've Got Root Was: Re: [gentoo-dev] Good Work, Lads!

[D. Tuinstra]

Stroller wrote:

> The root address was originally a joke. Like on those "I've got
> root" t-shirts at the GeekStore. When my ISP asked me what
> address@hostname.eclipse.co.uk I wanted, of course "root" was a
> cool choice. I see Spider is associated with a similar
> organisation.
> 
> So I don't know yet whether I'll be changing my address or not. I
> mean: I like it. Why should I change it, just because it confounds
> people..?

I shrugged and figured that you'd just finished reading
_Cryptonomicon_.

  --Dwight Tuinstra


--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] [OT] Re: I've Got Root Was: Re: [gentoo-dev] Good Work, Lads!

[Stroller]

> From: "D. Tuinstra" <tuinstra@inteo.com>
>
>> So I don't know yet whether I'll be changing my address or not. I
>> mean: I like it. Why should I change it, just because it confounds
>> people..?
> 
> I shrugged and figured that you'd just finished reading
> _Cryptonomicon_.

I *did* enjoy that book!
I guess that was probably my influence.

Stroller.


--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] I've Got Root Was: Re: [gentoo-dev] Good Work, Lads!

[Mike Frysinger]

On Wednesday 25 June 2003 20:21, Stroller wrote:
> If there really are folks out there reading mail from their root account (I
> mean, _is this possible?_), surely we need to be educating them better..?

on my desktop i run everything as root ... my desktop is the only time i'll do 
such a thing of course ;)
just makes X/games/sounds/everything easier w/out worrying about sudo/su.

> I was really quite surprised when an redhat-newbie acquaintance recently
> showed me it was possible to log in as root to the GUI on a modern Linux
> system. I mean: why does the (kdm?) graphical login window permit this..?

it's all about choice ... if you choose to login as root then fine ... dont 
restrict someone to do what they want ;)

after all, just like Owen Gunden <ogunden@stwing.upenn.edu> pointed out, users 
are free to do whatever they want with their own machines.  i choose to run 
my desktop as a sacrifical box; reinstall if i get hax0red ... i keep 
everything important on a secured server anyways ;)
-mike

--
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Re: [gentoo-dev] I've Got Root Was: Re: [gentoo-dev] Good Work, Lads!

[Patrick Kursawe]

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On Wed, Jun 25, 2003 at 08:43:20PM -0400, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> after all, just like Owen Gunden <ogunden@stwing.upenn.edu> pointed out, users 
> are free to do whatever they want with their own machines.  i choose to run 
> my desktop as a sacrifical box; reinstall if i get hax0red ... i keep 
> everything important on a secured server anyways ;)

I disagree. People are not free to do whatever they want with their own
machines as soon as they connect it to a public network, and these machines
can be used for DDoS or as a hop for cracking more important machines.

Especially because many people won't notice when their box is cracked
unless the intruder deletes vital system files or uses too much bandwidth.

Sure, you can drive as fast as you want on an old airport, on a racing
track or some private property, but please don't do that in a housing area.

Just my 0.02 EUR,

Patrick	

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Re: [gentoo-dev] I've Got Root Was: Re: [gentoo-dev] Good Work, Lads!

[Zack Gilburd]

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On Wednesday 25 June 2003 17:21, Stroller wrote:
> Yeah, I was really quite astonished by the previous message in respect to
> my email address. I don't really know yet how to react to it, which is why
> I haven't changed my addy.

Sorry about that, sir. :)

> I was initially quite offended that someone had mailed me to advise me "not
> to read mail as root" - I felt quite patronised. Do people really do
> that..?

Again, I am sorry for patronising you.  However, as a fellow Linux sysadmin, I 
feel that it is almost my obligation to inform others of their practices that 
I believe to be insecure. :)

> If there really are folks out there reading mail from their root account (I
> mean, _is this possible?_), surely we need to be educating them better..?

Indeed.  When users come into #gentoo or such with the ident of root, I 
promptly inform them that IRCing as root is hardly wise (even less so than 
[reading|sending] one's mail as root ;)).  I know that #debian has *!root@* 
banned in their channel -- but I am not suggesting we emulate their channel 
ethics heh.

> Maybe the NEED for a regular user should be spelled out more explicitly in
> the Gentoo installation documents. I see now that the subject is rather
> brushed over by a single line containing a link the the FAQ & the question
> "Everyone seems to think that i shouldn't be using root for everyday use,
> how can i add another user?"
>
> Maybe superadduser should be part of the base stages installation..?
> Instructions to `superadduser yournamehere` could be placed right before
> the setting-root-password section of the installation guide; the root
> password section could contain the explanation:
>   "the root password is used in conjunction with the `su` command when you
>    need to perform administrative tasks on your Gentoo box".

I do believe that the installation docs suggest that users create a normal 
user account and conduct all web-related activities (besides fetching 
distfiles, logically) such as irssi through this user.

> Since completion of a stage-3 install is intended to provide a complete, if
> minimal, Gentoo-Linux installation, ISTM that adding a non-root user is
> perhaps an essential, rather than an optional, part of the process.

This is entirely correct.  When I first started using Linux (I was ~7 then and 
I began with Slack 7.1, so I am not too old now, either ;)), I figured: "Hey, 
why not use the root account for doing everything?"  My Windows-user mindset 
of it's-okay-to-use-the-Administrator-account-for-everything had mislead me 
to think the same of Linux.  OT, but the only operating system that has 
touched any box that I own has been Linux for the last ~8 months.

> The root address was originally a joke. Like on those "I've got root"
> t-shirts at the GeekStore. When my ISP asked me what
> address@hostname.eclipse.co.uk I wanted, of course "root" was a cool
> choice. I see Spider is associated with a similar organisation.

I see no problem with this as I explain further below.

> So I don't know yet whether I'll be changing my address or not. I mean: I
> like it. Why should I change it, just because it confounds people..?

If you are merely logging into an account provided to your by your ISP, then I 
see no problem with using the username "root."  I was under the misimpression 
that you were using your own mail server and using the root account to send 
emails.  The latter is what I was discouraging against, not the former.

Regards

P.S., Sorry for emailing you twice about this thread, Stroller.
-- 
Zack Gilburd
http://tehunlose.com



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Re: [gentoo-dev] I've Got Root

[Michael Cummings]

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Zack - not to enter this fray (or take it off topic...err...further off topic since it was originally a thanks), but I'm afraid this isn't quite true. If your joeshmoe user account is a member of the portage group, and you have sufficient permissions on distfiles, you can even do emerge -f with nonroot, *then* worry about the compiling. Eh, just had to throw that out there (I routinely add to my distfiles as my user account when testing new ebuilds).

On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 17:44:45 -0700
Zack Gilburd <zack@tehunlose.com> wrote:

> I do believe that the installation docs suggest that users create a normal 
> user account and conduct all web-related activities (besides fetching 
> distfiles, logically) such as irssi through this user.
> 


-- 

-----o()o---------------------------------------------
              |  #gentoo-dev  on irc.freenode.net
Gentoo Dev    |  #gentoo-perl on irc.freenode.net
Perl Guy      |
              |  GnuPG Key ID:       AB5CED4E9E7F4E2E
-----o()o---------------------------------------------


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Re: [gentoo-dev] I've Got Root Was: Re: [gentoo-dev] Good Work, Lads!

[Dhruba Bandopadhyay]

Stroller wrote:
> If there really are folks out there reading mail from their root account (I
> mean, _is this possible?_), surely we need to be educating them better..?
> 
> Maybe the NEED for a regular user should be spelled out more explicitly in
> the Gentoo installation documents. I see now that the subject is rather
> brushed over by a single line containing a link the the FAQ & the question
> "Everyone seems to think that i shouldn't be using root for everyday use,
> how can i add another user?"
> 
> Maybe superadduser should be part of the base stages installation..?

I agree.  A friend of mine who was new to Gentoo was running everything 
as root initially and on my recommendation he is now running as normal 
user.  Superadduser is a wonderful tool.  If installation docs could 
emphasise the fact that at the end of the process users should use it to 
create a new user then not only will users not run as root but also 
questions such as 'why did useradd not create a home dir' be avoided. 
Alternatively, the proper usage of useradd can be demonstrated.

If one feels that such content is unsuitable for installation docs 
perhaps a guide called 'Introduction to Basic Linux Usage' can be 
produced with a Gentoo perspective and I'd certainly be willing to help 
in producing it.


--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Good Work, Lads!

[Daniel Armyr]

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I second that. I have given more than one dev the hot end of the flamethrower more than once, but that doens't change the fact that gentoo simply is the best distro out there, hands down.

--Daniel Armyr

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Good Work, Lads!

[Sean]

Yet another THANK YOU! for the Gentoo-dev crowd. I too am one of the
shadow mailing list lurkers that delete 80% of the messages that get
dropped into my Gentoo folder. While I may delete the majority, the
minority that have survived the delete key have been invaluable. 

Coming from the Debian distribution, I had a good sense of how Linux
systems worked, but I do feel that since I've been using Gentoo that I
have gained a far better grasp of the foundation level aspects of what
makes up a Linux distribution. Who knows if I'll ever use this for
anything "worthwhile", but the learning experience is nothing but pure
enjoyment, and that itself makes it worth my while.

I'll not drone on any longer .... just wanted to toss in my 2c and give
a huge THANK YOU to all that have helped create such a superb
distribution. You all have my gratitude and appreciation.

Sean

On Wed, 2003-06-25 at 13:39, Stroller wrote:
> Since installing Gentoo I've been intending to learn enough bash to start
> writing ebuilds, but somehow haven't managed to get around to it. I've been
> reading gentoo-dev all that time, a couple of months now, although I've
> rarely posted. I guess I'm an enthusiastic end-user, who has learned &
> benefited much since first installing Gentoo.
> 
> With the flurry of posting over the last couple of days, I think it's a good
> opportunity for me to say:
> WELL DONE, ALL THE GENTOO DEVS. A DAMN GOOD JOB YOU'VE MADE OF A DISTRO.
> 
> Although I rarely contribute myself, I keep seeing the same topics coming up
> here again & again:
>   How about a different front-end / GUI for Portage or installation?
>   How can we improve on the /usr/portage file tree?
>   How about better descriptions?
>   How about binaries..?
>   This doesn't work for me. How do I fix it?
>   When will 1.4 be ready?
> 
> With many of these questions, I can see that the helpful folks making the
> suggestions haven't been subscribed to this list as long as I have, and I
> can imagine it must be frustrating for the devs to have to say: "Well, we've
> talked about that, we're working on it, just bear with us and we'll get it
> done as soon as we can".
> 
> It must be a bummer for you guys when folks post "why don't we do it
> differently", when they haven't undertaken large projects (I personally have
> no concept of what is involved, but can only hazard a guess) and may not be
> around in 3 months saying: "well, you remember that big suggestion I made a
> while back... here's it is for you, the result of hours of work, ready to be
> incorporated into the tree".
> 
> I personally don't give a damn when 1.4 is "released" (although I appreciate
> others comments that it'll be a milestone for the Gentoo), and I would
> imagine the mention of it in recent threads might be quite frustrating for
> the devs; I can imagine that end-users asking when 1.4 will be ready is like
> them saying "I don't care about all the hard work that you're putting into
> this project, I'm interested in superficial stuff here".
> 
> And for anyone who thinks that a desktop manager like KDE or Gnome is an
> essential part of a working Unix distribution... and that you "need"
> binaries for anything beyond stage 3... well, *cough*...  luxury!.. tch!..
> in my day we had to walk 3 miles in the snow, barefoot! We had to eat coal
> for breakfast, then install Irix before class. Tch! Don't know they're born,
> these kids with their fancy namby-pamby frambuffer logo'd bootable-CDs.
> 
> Anyway, I just wanted to post & say that there are some of us (I am sure
> MANY of us) who aren't always so vocal, but who think that the Gentoo
> development team are doing a great job. I think Gentoo is *exactly* on track
> & focussed in the right direction.
> 
> Any time I see a good suggestion made here, I know that it's the sort of
> thing that he dev team treat seriously, and which will be incorporated into
> Gentoo, just as soon as other priorities are settled.
> 
> Many thanks, guys,
> 
> Stroller.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
> 
> 


--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Good Work, Lads!

[Zack Gilburd]

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On Wednesday 25 June 2003 10:39, Stroller wrote:
> I personally don't give a damn when 1.4 is "released" (although I
> appreciate others comments that it'll be a milestone for the Gentoo), and I
> would imagine the mention of it in recent threads might be quite
> frustrating for the devs; I can imagine that end-users asking when 1.4 will
> be ready is like them saying "I don't care about all the hard work that
> you're putting into this project, I'm interested in superficial stuff
> here".

Unfortunately, it's like that with every project that has a viable user-base.  
I do beta testing with Sillicon Ice Development (they're responsible for the 
wonderful Urban Terror <http://urbanterror.net) and we get the same kind of 
bombardment.  I must say it's not that annoying when you're on the outside of 
it, but once you've been on the inside of it (and just once is enough), it's 
one of *the* most annoying things a person could ask.  When "<whine> When 
will blah be done?! </whine>" prompts a "when it's finished" type response, 
as it usually does, the whiner tends to flame you for being "rude" to them, 
after all, they only "asked a question."  Unfortunately, the whiners don't 
seem to understand the significance of grep and a search button, if 
applicable.

Personally, I think "when it's done" is too lenient of a response.  Anyone who 
asks when the next release will be out had better have their asbestos 
underwear on, first. ;)

-- 
Zack Gilburd
 http://tehunlose.com
  GnuPG Key ID: A79A45668240AB6C



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