[gentoo-dev] volonteers for a gentoo admin tool (portage frontend)

[gentoo-dev] volonteers for a gentoo admin tool (portage frontend)

[Philippe Lafoucrière]

Hi all

A few days, we started to talk about a front end to portage. I received
some answers (Michael Kohl,Cabec2,etc.). 
If someone is interrested, please feel free to join (just tell us HERE -
not my personnal email).

Now we have to define fonctionnalities of this new utility. I propose a
basic select/install/deinstall utility for the first release.

- select a category in the list (dialog menu)
- select a package in selected category (with a flag for installed
packages -> dialog checked box).

Moreover, we need a common repository to start the project. Is there a
place on gentoo cvs ? It would be weird to start this project on sf...

Waiting 4 u !

--
Gravis


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Re: [gentoo-dev] volonteers for a gentoo admin tool (portage frontend)

[Michael Kohl]

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On 22 Jun 2003 15:34:14 +0200
Philippe Lafoucrière <lafou@wanadoo.fr> wrote:

> Now we have to define fonctionnalities of this new utility. I propose
> a basic select/install/deinstall utility for the first release.

Hm, actually I always considered package managment a rather low priority
for a tool like this or even a tool on it's own.

What I'd love to see is something to replace the clutter of tools
currently present (mirrorselect, ufed, the various -confifgs etc.) for
gentoo specific tasks in on single tool, "Emergency" (my first name
proposal), "gentoo-config" or whatever name we decide on.

Also the task of installing packages in a GUI is already covered by
several projects (for a console version you can use the scripts from
Optilude found on forums.gentoo.org), but something similar to
/stand/sysinstall is not present and besides our talking not in the
planning AFAIK.

So maybe a good point to start would be _new_ functionality like a GUI
for setting various settings in /etc/make.conf (portdir overlay,
features, rsync retries etc.) and then start working on integrating
functionality currently provided by the other tools.

I'm not even sure anymore if I want to see package managment included in
this unified tool, as from my point of view a full featured package
manager is a project worth it's on program. But regarding this I'm open
for argument and other people's opinion.

My 2 cents,
Michael

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Re: [gentoo-dev] volonteers for a gentoo admin tool (portage frontend)

[Svyatogor]

On Sunday 22 June 2003 14:07, Michael Kohl wrote:
> What I'd love to see is something to replace the clutter of tools
> currently present (mirrorselect, ufed, the various -confifgs etc.) for
> gentoo specific tasks in on single tool, "Emergency" (my first name
> proposal), "gentoo-config" or whatever name we decide on.
Not Emergency - please! It sounds as if it's always gonna crash and you need 
to call emergensy service. I've got another proposal: Gremlin? It has G - for 
gentoo. In the end of the day we have "Konqui the dragon" for KDE, Demon, for 
BSD. Why not Gremlin for gentoo?

> So maybe a good point to start would be _new_ functionality like a GUI
> for setting various settings in /etc/make.conf (portdir overlay,
> features, rsync retries etc.) and then start working on integrating
> functionality currently provided by the other tools.
Probably we should go other way round? First integrate what is already done 
and then add new things. This way we'll make sure we're not just gonna add 
one more tool, but really integrate existing ones.

> I'm not even sure anymore if I want to see package managment included in
> this unified tool, as from my point of view a full featured package
> manager is a project worth it's on program. But regarding this I'm open
> for argument and other people's opinion.
I feel that package management has to be in such tool, though not nesesarily 
in first versions.

-- 
Sergey Kuleshov <svyatogor@gentoo.org>
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Re: [gentoo-dev] volonteers for a gentoo admin tool (portage frontend)

[Michael Kohl]

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On Sun, 22 Jun 2003 17:22:41 +0000
Svyatogor <svyatogor@gentoo.org> wrote:

> Not Emergency - please! It sounds as if it's always gonna crash and
> you need to call emergensy service. 

It was just in regard to emerge... Other people like it, but
actually I don't care that much about the name.

> I've got another proposal: Gremlin? It has G - for  gentoo. In the end
> of the day we have "Konqui the dragon" for KDE, Demon, for BSD. Why
> not Gremlin for gentoo?

Don't we already have a mascot in form of Larry the Cow? Maybe we can
come up with something along those lines?

> Probably we should go other way round? First integrate what is already
> done and then add new things. This way we'll make sure we're not just
> gonna add one more tool, but really integrate existing ones.

Sure, why not? I just wanted to say that I don't think the package
managment part should be the fist to be tackled.
 
> I feel that package management has to be in such tool, though not
> nesesarily in first versions.

Sounds like a deal. :)

Michael

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Re: [gentoo-dev] volonteers for a gentoo admin tool (portage frontend)

[Philippe Lafoucrière]

On Sun, 2003-06-22 at 19:22, Svyatogor wrote:
> On Sunday 22 June 2003 14:07, Michael Kohl wrote:
> > What I'd love to see is something to replace the clutter of tools
> > currently present (mirrorselect, ufed, the various -confifgs etc.) for
> > gentoo specific tasks in on single tool, "Emergency" (my first name
> > proposal), "gentoo-config" or whatever name we decide on.
> Not Emergency - please! It sounds as if it's always gonna crash and you need 
> to call emergensy service. I've got another proposal: Gremlin? It has G - for 
> gentoo. In the end of the day we have "Konqui the dragon" for KDE, Demon, for 
> BSD. Why not Gremlin for gentoo?

Love it

but please be careful of trademarks


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Re: [gentoo-dev] volonteers for a gentoo admin tool (portage frontend)

[Brett I. Holcomb]

 Why?  For Historical reasons <G> the unix way is individual tools that do
 the job well, not a monolithic swiss knife type of tool (ala Windows way).
 Seriously, I'd hate to have to use a tool that combines mirrorselect, ufed,
 etc-update, rc-update, and everything else.  If it's GUI I'd be lost in a
 maze of menus and tabs.  And it would have to be able to be run from the
 command line since not all systems have X - then you'd have a billion
 options to remember which would be impossible.

The Unix/Linux tool for the job works well - very well.  I've had my fill
on managing systems (Windows) with the "one giant tool for all jobs"
approach.  Obvioiusly, we don't have to use this tool but n short I feel we 
the effort is better spent elsewhere.  I started out using this kind of tool 
(Webmin, etc.) on Caldera and RH and then gave up as I found they really 
didn't do the job.  In addition by digging into the command line I really 
learned Gentoo/Linux.


> > On Sunday 22 June 2003 14:07, Michael Kohl wrote:
> > > What I'd love to see is something to replace the clutter of tools
> > > currently present (mirrorselect, ufed, the various -confifgs etc.) for
> > > gentoo specific tasks in on single tool, "Emergency" (my first name
> > > proposal), "gentoo-config" or whatever name we decide on.

-- 

Brett I. Holcomb
AKA Grunt <><

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Re: [gentoo-dev] volonteers for a gentoo admin tool (portage frontend)

[Philippe Lafoucrière]

On Sun, 2003-06-22 at 20:05, Brett I. Holcomb wrote:
>  Why?  For Historical reasons <G> the unix way is individual tools that do
>  the job well, not a monolithic swiss knife type of tool (ala Windows way).
>  Seriously, I'd hate to have to use a tool that combines mirrorselect, ufed,
>  etc-update, rc-update, and everything else.  If it's GUI I'd be lost in a
>  maze of menus and tabs.  And it would have to be able to be run from the
>  command line since not all systems have X - then you'd have a billion
>  options to remember which would be impossible.
> 
> The Unix/Linux tool for the job works well - very well.  I've had my fill
> on managing systems (Windows) with the "one giant tool for all jobs"
> approach.  Obvioiusly, we don't have to use this tool but n short I feel we 
> the effort is better spent elsewhere.  I started out using this kind of tool 
> (Webmin, etc.) on Caldera and RH and then gave up as I found they really 
> didn't do the job.  In addition by digging into the command line I really 
> learned Gentoo/Linux.


hmmm you didn't understand the projet. It aims at create a FRONT END to these tools, 
not replace existing ones. Moreover, the tool is dialog based, so you won't need X.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] volonteers for a gentoo admin tool (portage frontend)

[Michael Kohl]

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On Sun, 22 Jun 2003 14:05:24 -0400
"Brett I. Holcomb" <brettholcomb@charter.net> wrote:

>  Why?  For Historical reasons <G> the unix way is individual tools
>  that do the job well, 

Nothing against the UNIX way, I also like it, but just because something
is old and in use for a while doesn't mean it's perfect or the only way
of doing things. I'll bet there are people who'd like to have the swiss
army knife type of program (e..g. FreeBSD converts used to
/stand/sysinstall), that's why the real ones sell pretty good. ;)

> Obvioiusly, we don't have to use this tool but in short I feel we the
> effort is better spent elsewhere.  

None of us is a official Gentoo developer and we all like this project.
I can't see why this effort should be spent elsewhere.

> In addition by digging into the command line I really learned
> Gentoo/Linux.

And that was the same for me while still using Debian. The point of this
tool is not to replace anything currently present completely, nor is it
an attempt to "dummify" Gentoo Linux. But for somebody new to the
distribution it may not be obvious what all of the currently present
tools do. A unified tool capable of configuring many ascpects of a
Gentoo system could help here.

Michael

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Re: [gentoo-dev] volonteers for a gentoo admin tool (portage frontend)

[Philippe Lafoucrière]

> And that was the same for me while still using Debian. The point of this
> tool is not to replace anything currently present completely, nor is it
> an attempt to "dummify" Gentoo Linux. But for somebody new to the
> distribution it may not be obvious what all of the currently present
> tools do. A unified tool capable of configuring many ascpects of a
> Gentoo system could help here.


Totally agree. I use gentoo for a while, and still don't know all the tools. 
Is there a list of them with their description (functions) ?

Philippe


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Re: [gentoo-dev] volonteers for a gentoo admin tool (portage frontend)

[Cabec2]

Le dim 22/06/2003 à 15:34, Philippe Lafoucrière a écrit :

Hi !

> A few days, we started to talk about a front end to portage. I received
> some answers (Michael Kohl,Cabec2,etc.). 

as Philippe said, i'm quite interested in this project. i'm not really able to do anything concerning coding, since i've almost no experience in serious coding/dev, but i think i can be useful for maintaining/writing docs, hiring cheerleaders, distributing beers, etc.. :)
so if I can participate, i'll be happy to do so ;)

> Moreover, we need a common repository to start the project. Is there a
> place on gentoo cvs ? It would be weird to start this project on sf...

SF is probably not the good place, and gentoo cvs seems to be the best
one, i agree =)

--
cab


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Re: [gentoo-dev] volonteers for a gentoo admin tool (portage frontend)

[Svyatogor]

I am very extremely interested in taking part in a project like that. However 
I would like to make a suggestion on it: from what I understood from your 
previous posts you are using Python + Dialog, which basically means the 
console interface for the tool. While this has an undisputable advnatage that 
we're 100% sure that everyone can run it we have one problem with it:
Such a tool will not be very friendly to beginner users, espesially those ones 
who are just trying Linux for the first time. Most people are used to WIMPY 
interface and feel uncomfortable when they have o do anything in console.

My suggestion is to maintain in parlel with your tool another program, 
providing the same functonality but build using one of the GUI toolkits, say 
GTK or Qt. Cause I have some experience with Qt programming I could mainatin 
that part.

Conserning repository, I guess this fits well as a Gentoo hosted project. A?

On Sunday 22 June 2003 13:34, Philippe Lafoucrière wrote:
> Hi all
>
> A few days, we started to talk about a front end to portage. I received
> some answers (Michael Kohl,Cabec2,etc.).
> If someone is interrested, please feel free to join (just tell us HERE -
> not my personnal email).
>
> Now we have to define fonctionnalities of this new utility. I propose a
> basic select/install/deinstall utility for the first release.
>
> - select a category in the list (dialog menu)
> - select a package in selected category (with a flag for installed
> packages -> dialog checked box).
>
> Moreover, we need a common repository to start the project. Is there a
> place on gentoo cvs ? It would be weird to start this project on sf...
>
> Waiting 4 u !
>
> --
> Gravis

-- 
Sergey Kuleshov <svyatogor@gentoo.org>
Let the Force be with us!


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Re: [gentoo-dev] volonteers for a gentoo admin tool (portage frontend)

[hanez]

hi,

there are tools like this allready:

kportage -> qt based

portagemaster -> java based

a conole based portage frontend would be nice...

kind regards

hanez

On Sunday 22 June 2003 18:50, Svyatogor wrote:
> I am very extremely interested in taking part in a project like that.
> However I would like to make a suggestion on it: from what I understood
> from your previous posts you are using Python + Dialog, which basically
> means the console interface for the tool. While this has an undisputable
> advnatage that we're 100% sure that everyone can run it we have one problem
> with it: Such a tool will not be very friendly to beginner users,
> espesially those ones who are just trying Linux for the first time. Most
> people are used to WIMPY interface and feel uncomfortable when they have o
> do anything in console.
>
> My suggestion is to maintain in parlel with your tool another program,
> providing the same functonality but build using one of the GUI toolkits,
> say GTK or Qt. Cause I have some experience with Qt programming I could
> mainatin that part.
>
> Conserning repository, I guess this fits well as a Gentoo hosted project.
> A?
>
> On Sunday 22 June 2003 13:34, Philippe Lafoucrière wrote:
> > Hi all
> >
> > A few days, we started to talk about a front end to portage. I received
> > some answers (Michael Kohl,Cabec2,etc.).
> > If someone is interrested, please feel free to join (just tell us HERE -
> > not my personnal email).
> >
> > Now we have to define fonctionnalities of this new utility. I propose a
> > basic select/install/deinstall utility for the first release.
> >
> > - select a category in the list (dialog menu)
> > - select a package in selected category (with a flag for installed
> > packages -> dialog checked box).
> >
> > Moreover, we need a common repository to start the project. Is there a
> > place on gentoo cvs ? It would be weird to start this project on sf...
> >
> > Waiting 4 u !
> >
> > --
> > Gravis

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Re: [gentoo-dev] volonteers for a gentoo admin tool (portage frontend)

[Michael Kohl]

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On Sun, 22 Jun 2003 16:50:35 +0000
Svyatogor <svyatogor@gentoo.org> wrote:

> I am very extremely interested in taking part in a project like that.
> However I would like to make a suggestion on it: from what I
> understood from your previous posts you are using Python + Dialog,
> which basically means the console interface for the tool. 

Yeah, being able to use a tool like this on machines without X or
remotely via SSH etc. is IMHO a must.

> While this has an undisputable advnatage that  we're 100% sure that
> everyone can run it we have one problem with it: Such a tool will not
> be very friendly to beginner users, espesially those ones who are just
> trying Linux for the first time. Most people are used to WIMPY
> interface and feel uncomfortable when they have o do anything in
> console.

In my original proposal I stated the several that a GUI agnostic
approach would be nice. Read: core functionality, plus several frontends
like console (dialog or ncurses), GTK and QT.

> My suggestion is to maintain in parlel with your tool another program,
> providing the same functonality but build using one of the GUI
> toolkits, say GTK or Qt. Cause I have some experience with Qt
> programming I could mainatin that part.

And I'd be very interested in participating in the GTK version. I've
never done any useful work for GTK so far, but startet playing around
with the Python GNOME bindings, Glade and stuff like that. Working
together with someone who already has knowledge on this subject
would be a great oppurtunity for me to learn while doing something
useful for the Gentoo community (hopefully).

3 more days until my exams are finished, after that I have more time on
my hands.

Michael

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Re: [gentoo-dev] volonteers for a gentoo admin tool (portage frontend)

[Taylor Christopher P]

i'm working on one currently called "iportage"

check out iportage.sf.net

i have a ui designed currently and i'm using wxpython to maintain
consistancy with portage's language of choice -
what's nice about wxpython is that it's a cross platform binding so for
the gentoo-osx/darwin/linux crowd it'd be great [i/we'd only have to
maintain one code base]

tell me what you think. i'm going to post a screen shot of my working demo
tonight on the iportage site.

Christopher Paul Taylor, Clemson University Computer Science Dept.

On Sun, 22 Jun 2003, Philippe [ISO-8859-1] Lafoucrière wrote:

> Hi all
>
> A few days, we started to talk about a front end to portage. I received
> some answers (Michael Kohl,Cabec2,etc.).
> If someone is interrested, please feel free to join (just tell us HERE -
> not my personnal email).
>
> Now we have to define fonctionnalities of this new utility. I propose a
> basic select/install/deinstall utility for the first release.
>
> - select a category in the list (dialog menu)
> - select a package in selected category (with a flag for installed
> packages -> dialog checked box).
>
> Moreover, we need a common repository to start the project. Is there a
> place on gentoo cvs ? It would be weird to start this project on sf...
>
> Waiting 4 u !
>
> --
> Gravis
>
>
> --
> Philippe Lafoucrière <lafou@wanadoo.fr>
> InFuzzion
>
>
> --
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>

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Re: [gentoo-dev] volonteers for a gentoo admin tool (portage frontend)

[Philippe Lafoucrière]

On Sun, 2003-06-22 at 20:25, Taylor Christopher P wrote:
> i'm working on one currently called "iportage"
> 
> check out iportage.sf.net

Nice work ! Maybe iportage.sf.net can host this new project (which would
run well on OS X, since it is python based) ??




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Re: [gentoo-dev] volonteers for a gentoo admin tool (portage frontend)

[Philippe Lafoucrière]

We need a common repository to let this project start !
Should we open a new project on sf, or use gentoo cvs, or use iportage cvs ?


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