[gentoo-dev] Point of fact.

[gentoo-dev] Point of fact.

[Tom Newsom]

Hi,

Whoever gets this, if your in #gentoo then you`ll know me by the nick
Jeepster.

You`ll also possibly know I refuse point blank to use the nvidia stuff
from portage and if you`ve taken any notice you`ll also know why.

Take the following comment from your web site...

*************
At the moment, there's one known quirk with the install. Some
applications (most notably the Quake series) do not use the standard
library search path for loading libGL.so, but instead manually dlopen
"/usr/lib/libGL.so". For this reason, make sure that /usr/lib/libGL.so
is a symlink that points to /opt/nvidia/lib/libGL.so. We'll be
addressing this quirk soon.
*************

It isnt a quirk, the paths that quake,UT etc look in for GL libs is a
standard place, when nvidia decided a while ago to create linux drivers
they decided on a standard place for thier libs to be, that being
/usr/lib and also they *had* to alter some XFree libs and links.

Once you accept you`re nvidia portage files sent the libs to the wrong
place then you will fix your "quirk"

I can if you wish get a guy who started the nvidia drivers to come into
#gentoo and tell you why you`re /opt/ place is wrong.

Other than this and GRUB being default boot loader, gentoo is excellent
in all areas. Keep up the excellent work.

Thank you.

NVIDIA stuff (was: [gentoo-dev] Point of fact.)

[Arcady Genkin]

Tom Newsom <Jeepster@gmx.co.uk> writes:

> Whoever gets this, if your in #gentoo then you`ll know me by the nick
> Jeepster.

Looking for trouble, aren't you? ;^)

> It isnt a quirk, the paths that quake,UT etc look in for GL libs is a
> standard place, when nvidia decided a while ago to create linux drivers
> they decided on a standard place for thier libs to be, that being
> /usr/lib and also they *had* to alter some XFree libs and links.

Hard coding library paths[1] in an application is plain wrong.  The
problem lies with the programs that do that.

And who said that /usr/lib is the standard place?  What if I
maintained the GL libraries locally, and had them installed some place
under /usr/local?

NVIDIA took the easy way out.  Their Makefiles are horrible kludges,
if you ask my opinion.  I just hope that the person(s), who works on
the drivers' code is different from the one that works on the
installation subsystem. ;^)

Anyhow what NVIDIA does is it overwrites files in your installation,
without asking for your consent, giving you any choice, or even
backing them up.  Do you think that this is the right way to install
software?

Guess what happens:
1.  when you reinstall Xfree?
    [.oop-oop og sbil s'AIDIVN]
2.  if you choose to uninstall NVIDIA's packages?
    [.pu emoc ton dluow X yhw tuo gnirugif kcul dooG]

> Once you accept you`re nvidia portage files sent the libs to the wrong
> place then you will fix your "quirk"
>
> I can if you wish get a guy who started the nvidia drivers to come into
> #gentoo and tell you why you`re /opt/ place is wrong.

Oh-oh!  Not the guy who wrote the Makefiles, I hope!  Or else your
argument from authority is just not going to work.

Footnotes: 
[1]  Or any other paths, except for the ones to files of the package
     itself, for that matter.
-- 
Arcady Genkin
Don't read everything you believe.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Point of fact.

[Karl Trygve Kalleberg]

On 08 Mar 2002 01:42:34 +0000
Tom Newsom <Jeepster@gmx.co.uk> wrote:

> I can if you wish get a guy who started the nvidia drivers to come into
> #gentoo and tell you why you`re /opt/ place is wrong.

We do not want to clutter our /usr hierarchy with proprietary software. It
is as much a political decision to put all non-free software in /opt as a
technical.

Hence, there is no way we'll budge on this issue, as it is religious ;p

(On a similar note; if you see any ebuilds that install non-free software
into /usr and not /opt, it is considered a bug, and should be reported to
bugs.gentoo.org).


Kind regards,

Karl T

Re: [gentoo-dev] Point of fact.

[Marc Soda]

What would you suggest in place of GRUB?

On 2002.03.07 20:42 Tom Newsom wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Whoever gets this, if your in #gentoo then you`ll know me by the nick
> Jeepster.
> 
> You`ll also possibly know I refuse point blank to use the nvidia stuff
> from portage and if you`ve taken any notice you`ll also know why.
> 
> Take the following comment from your web site...
> 
> *************
> At the moment, there's one known quirk with the install. Some
> applications (most notably the Quake series) do not use the standard
> library search path for loading libGL.so, but instead manually dlopen
> "/usr/lib/libGL.so". For this reason, make sure that /usr/lib/libGL.so
> is a symlink that points to /opt/nvidia/lib/libGL.so. We'll be
> addressing this quirk soon.
> *************
> 
> It isnt a quirk, the paths that quake,UT etc look in for GL libs is a
> standard place, when nvidia decided a while ago to create linux
> drivers
> they decided on a standard place for thier libs to be, that being
> /usr/lib and also they *had* to alter some XFree libs and links.
> 
> Once you accept you`re nvidia portage files sent the libs to the wrong
> place then you will fix your "quirk"
> 
> I can if you wish get a guy who started the nvidia drivers to come
> into
> #gentoo and tell you why you`re /opt/ place is wrong.
> 
> Other than this and GRUB being default boot loader, gentoo is
> excellent
> in all areas. Keep up the excellent work.
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> gentoo-dev mailing list
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org
> http://lists.gentoo.org/mailman/listinfo/gentoo-dev
> 
-- 

Marc Soda
ASPRE, Inc.
marc@aspre.net
http://www.aspre.net/

RE: [gentoo-dev] Point of fact.

[Sean Mitchell]

>> Other than this and GRUB being default boot loader, gentoo 
>> is excellent in all areas. Keep up the excellent work.

> What would you suggest in place of GRUB?

Well, the rest of that whole post aside, many of us have had trouble with
grub because we have no separate /boot partition. In my case, my /boot
partition is on /dev/hde1, which grub just can't seem to find.

I like grub, but I've had much more success with lilo.

Sean

Re: [gentoo-dev] Point of fact.

[Thilo Bangert]

On Friday, 8. March 2002 16:55, you wrote:
> >> Other than this and GRUB being default boot loader, gentoo
> >> is excellent in all areas. Keep up the excellent work.
> >
> > What would you suggest in place of GRUB?
>
> Well, the rest of that whole post aside, many of us have had trouble
> with grub because we have no separate /boot partition. In my case, my
> /boot partition is on /dev/hde1, which grub just can't seem to find.
>
> I like grub, but I've had much more success with lilo.
>

this sounds like the exact same complaints one hears about djbdns ...

as soon as some software starts doing things different than how i 
usually was handled it's considered "dificult" or "non-standard"

this drives me nuts...

> Sean

i like gentoo because it includes what make sense..

fx. GRUB
fx. nvidia drivers in opt
fx. <fill-in-your-favorite-ebuild>
...

-- 
regards
Thilo

RE: [gentoo-dev] Point of fact.

[Erik Grinaker]

On Fri, 2002-03-08 at 16:55, Sean Mitchell wrote:

> Well, the rest of that whole post aside, many of us have had trouble with
> grub because we have no separate /boot partition. In my case, my /boot
> partition is on /dev/hde1, which grub just can't seem to find.
> 
> I like grub, but I've had much more success with lilo.

This is all explained in the grub documentation
(http://www.gnu.org/manual/grub-0.90/html_chapter/grub_toc.html). 

The biggest problem people have with GRUB is that they fail to realize
what root in the GRUB config means - it is not the system root, but the
root where the kernel images reside. In other words, your boot
partition.

Your config entry should be for exampe "root (hd0,0)", where hd0,0 is
your boot partition.

When you specify your kernel image you must do this relative to your
boot root, which usually should be /<your-kernel-image>. And then you
pass your *system root* as a boot argument, for example ;

kernel /bzkernel-2.4.18-2 root=/dev/hda5

Now, in order to avoid all this confusion (or perhaps add to it :)), you
can create a symlink from /boot/boot to /boot. This allows you to
specify /boot/<kernelimage> in your grub config. To do this, issue the
command "cd /boot && ln -s . boot".

now it will work to specify your kernel image as, for example ;

kernel /boot/bzkernel-2.4.18-2 root=/dev/hda5

GRUB is far superior to LILO in pretty much every conceivable way, as
long as you read the documentation and understand how it works. And when
you do so you will quickly see that LILO is a child's toy in comparison.


Feel free to add this to the docs...

-- 

Erik Grinaker
Freelance UNIX/Linux systems consultant

"Perfection is acheived not when there is nothing more to add, but
rather when there is nothing more to take away"
- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

RE: [gentoo-dev] Point of fact.

[Erik Grinaker]

On Fri, 2002-03-08 at 17:51, Erik Grinaker wrote:

> On Fri, 2002-03-08 at 16:55, Sean Mitchell wrote:
> 
> > Well, the rest of that whole post aside, many of us have had trouble with
> > grub because we have no separate /boot partition. In my case, my /boot
> > partition is on /dev/hde1, which grub just can't seem to find.

> This is all explained in the grub documentation
> (http://www.gnu.org/manual/grub-0.90/html_chapter/grub_toc.html). 

Oh my, I just realized it says "no separate /boot", when I always
thought it said "because we have a separate /boot".

Sorry

-- 

Erik Grinaker
Freelance UNIX/Linux systems consultant

"Perfection is acheived not when there is nothing more to add, but
rather when there is nothing more to take away"
- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

Re: [gentoo-dev] Point of fact.

[Marc Soda]

Amen brother.

On 2002.03.08 11:51 Erik Grinaker wrote:
> On Fri, 2002-03-08 at 16:55, Sean Mitchell wrote:
> 
> > Well, the rest of that whole post aside, many of us have had trouble
> with
> > grub because we have no separate /boot partition. In my case, my
> /boot
> > partition is on /dev/hde1, which grub just can't seem to find.
> >
> > I like grub, but I've had much more success with lilo.
> 
> This is all explained in the grub documentation
> (http://www.gnu.org/manual/grub-0.90/html_chapter/grub_toc.html).
> 
> The biggest problem people have with GRUB is that they fail to realize
> what root in the GRUB config means - it is not the system root, but
> the
> root where the kernel images reside. In other words, your boot
> partition.
> 
> Your config entry should be for exampe "root (hd0,0)", where hd0,0 is
> your boot partition.
> 
> When you specify your kernel image you must do this relative to your
> boot root, which usually should be /<your-kernel-image>. And then you
> pass your *system root* as a boot argument, for example ;
> 
> kernel /bzkernel-2.4.18-2 root=/dev/hda5
> 
> Now, in order to avoid all this confusion (or perhaps add to it :)),
> you
> can create a symlink from /boot/boot to /boot. This allows you to
> specify /boot/<kernelimage> in your grub config. To do this, issue the
> command "cd /boot && ln -s . boot".
> 
> now it will work to specify your kernel image as, for example ;
> 
> kernel /boot/bzkernel-2.4.18-2 root=/dev/hda5
> 
> GRUB is far superior to LILO in pretty much every conceivable way, as
> long as you read the documentation and understand how it works. And
> when
> you do so you will quickly see that LILO is a child's toy in
> comparison.
> 
> 
> Feel free to add this to the docs...
> 
> --
> 
> Erik Grinaker
> Freelance UNIX/Linux systems consultant
> 
> "Perfection is acheived not when there is nothing more to add, but
> rather when there is nothing more to take away"
> - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> gentoo-dev mailing list
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org
> http://lists.gentoo.org/mailman/listinfo/gentoo-dev
> 
-- 

Marc Soda
ASPRE, Inc.
marc@aspre.net
http://www.aspre.net/

Re: [gentoo-dev] Point of fact.

[Jon Nelson]

On 08 Mar 2002 17:51:17 +0100
Erik Grinaker <erikg@wired-networks.net> wrote:

> On Fri, 2002-03-08 at 16:55, Sean Mitchell wrote:
> 
> > Well, the rest of that whole post aside, many of us have had trouble with
> > grub because we have no separate /boot partition. In my case, my /boot
> > partition is on /dev/hde1, which grub just can't seem to find.
> > 
> > I like grub, but I've had much more success with lilo.

I find this interesting, because grub in situations *without* a
separate /boot partition is super-easy! I've never run it in
any other way.  In the menu.lst, just have everything refer
to /boot/<kernel> and so on, (because that is where it *is*),
and use
root (hd0,0)
(actually, for you, (hd4,0), right?)

I haven't used lilo for a couple of years now, and i've been exclusively
grub.  Grub has let me down *once* in all that time, and that was because
I was an idjit and "upgraded" the files and re-ran grub to install the
new code.  It was a problem with the Debian package at the time and it
horked all over the floor (very messy -- needed a mop,...)
I fixed it with my grub boot floppy, which I made off of my gentoo box.
Yay!  Problem solved. With LILO, it was always one thing or another.
I had a boot disk *handy*.

-- 
The Amazing* Jon Nelson <jnelson@securepipe.com>
C and Python Programmer, Code Gardener
Just because it's not broken doesn't mean we can't take it apart.
  (* may not actually amaze)

RE: [gentoo-dev] Point of fact.

[Sean Mitchell]

>> I like grub, but I've had much more success with lilo.

> I find this interesting, because grub in situations *without* a 
> separate /boot partition is super-easy! I've never run it in
> any other way.  In the menu.lst, just have everything refer
> to /boot/<kernel> and so on, (because that is where it *is*),
> and use root (hd0,0) (actually, for you, (hd4,0), right?)

It's the second drive, master on my HPT370 controller. The first drive is
master on the chipset IDE controller. I have tried root (hd0,0), (hd1,0),
(hd3,0) and (hd4,0).

Contrary to what has been implied in other posts I have RTFM (I used to run
OpenBSD before Gentoo) and haven't had any success on my ABIT KT7. 

I have grub working quite nicely on my laptop and on my server. FWIW I also
have DJBDNS and Qmail running quite nicely on the server as well......

I'm not opposed to grub in any way, I simply have not had the same degree of
success with it as I have with lilo. And judging from the number of posts
here on the topic I am by no means alone in this.

The original poster to whom I replied seemed to question why anyone would
possibly want to run anything other than grub, so I was trying to help him
out.

Sean

Re: [gentoo-dev] Point of fact.

[Arcady Genkin]

Sean Mitchell <SMitchell@phoenix-interactive.com> writes:

> I like grub, but I've had much more success with lilo.

I don't think that we have an issue here.  I have never used grub, and
I got lilo working under Gentoo quite trivially, without any problems.
It's not like the users don't have a choice...
-- 
Arcady Genkin
Don't read everything you believe.

RE: [gentoo-dev] Point of fact.

[Martin Schlemmer]

On Fri, 2002-03-08 at 18:51, Erik Grinaker wrote:
> On Fri, 2002-03-08 at 16:55, Sean Mitchell wrote:
> 
> > Well, the rest of that whole post aside, many of us have had trouble with
> > grub because we have no separate /boot partition. In my case, my /boot
> > partition is on /dev/hde1, which grub just can't seem to find.
> > 

I have experienced the same problem in the past.  Try the following:

  device (hd0) /dev/hde
  root (hd0,0)  #or whatever
  ....

This works for me.

> > I like grub, but I've had much more success with lilo.
> 
> This is all explained in the grub documentation
> (http://www.gnu.org/manual/grub-0.90/html_chapter/grub_toc.html). 
> 
> The biggest problem people have with GRUB is that they fail to realize
> what root in the GRUB config means - it is not the system root, but the
> root where the kernel images reside. In other words, your boot
> partition.
> 

Not entirely.  root(hd?,?) sets the root partition for Grub's stage
files.

You can specify a kernel on a alternative partition:

  root (hd0,0)
  kernel (hd0,1)/vmlinuz root=/dev/foo bar ...

> Your config entry should be for exampe "root (hd0,0)", where hd0,0 is
> your boot partition.
> 
> When you specify your kernel image you must do this relative to your
> boot root, which usually should be /<your-kernel-image>. And then you
> pass your *system root* as a boot argument, for example ;
> 
> kernel /bzkernel-2.4.18-2 root=/dev/hda5
> 
> Now, in order to avoid all this confusion (or perhaps add to it :)), you
> can create a symlink from /boot/boot to /boot. This allows you to
> specify /boot/<kernelimage> in your grub config. To do this, issue the
> command "cd /boot && ln -s . boot".
> 

It works on my system with a seperate /boot partition, but without the
/boot/boot symlink.

> now it will work to specify your kernel image as, for example ;
> 
> kernel /boot/bzkernel-2.4.18-2 root=/dev/hda5
> 
> GRUB is far superior to LILO in pretty much every conceivable way, as
> long as you read the documentation and understand how it works. And when
> you do so you will quickly see that LILO is a child's toy in comparison.
> 
> 
> Feel free to add this to the docs...
> 
> -- 
> 
> Erik Grinaker
> Freelance UNIX/Linux systems consultant
> 
> "Perfection is acheived not when there is nothing more to add, but
> rather when there is nothing more to take away"
> - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> gentoo-dev mailing list
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org
> http://lists.gentoo.org/mailman/listinfo/gentoo-dev
-- 

Martin Schlemmer
Gentoo Linux Developer, Desktop Team Developer
Cape Town, South Africa

Re: [gentoo-dev] Point of fact.

[Jim Nutt]

On 08 Mar 2002 17:51:17 +0100
Erik Grinaker <erikg@wired-networks.net> wrote:

> GRUB is far superior to LILO in pretty much every conceivable way, as
> long as you read the documentation and understand how it works. And when
> you do so you will quickly see that LILO is a child's toy in comparison.

Well, after many long hours of fighting with it, I've found one way in which GRUB is definitely NOT superior to LILO. I have a Toshiba Satellite 490XCDT laptop. I've just installed a 10 GB drive into said laptop. Unfortunately, the laptop BIOS has no way of enabling LBA for large drives. GRUB simply will not work on a drive over 8 GB without LBA. LILO works just fine. And I did try just about everything conceivable to make GRUB work, as I like GRUB. It just wasn't going to happen..

jim

Re: NVIDIA stuff (was: [gentoo-dev] Point of fact.)

[Michael Costello]

Just have to say that your exchange with this person is priceless...

Good show... give em hell.

Though I still hope the NVIDIA drivers get better I personally don't 
like the idea of
supporting their method of installation or their terms of development 
for linux.

ATI on the other hand... easy ... its all in XFree... now its up to that 
loveable mess
to make my framerates better should I occasionally wish to play quake...

Mike Costello
absent xqf and qstat ebuilder...
and new gentoo convert.