[gentoo-dev] [REVIEW] News Item - 2020-10-17-display-manager-init

[gentoo-dev] [REVIEW] News Item - 2020-10-17-display-manager-init

[Aisha Tammy]

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Hi,
  I'm attaching the news item for the upcoming display-manager-init changes

Thanks,
Aisha

-----------

Title: New OpenRC Display Manager Initializer Scripts
Author: Aisha Tammy <gentoo@aisha.cc>
Posted: 2020-10-17
Revision: 1
News-Item-Format: 2.0

There has been a refactoring of the old 'xdm' init script and its 
requirements from various packages into an independent package:

	gui-libs/display-manager-init

This package provides the 'display-manager' startup script for 
handling your chosen display manager, without being dependent on
Xorg server.

To update to the new DM init scripts, you need to manually add the
package in your @world set:

	emerge -vuDU gui-libs/display-manager-init

To start using the new init scripts, change the DISPLAYMANAGER
variable in the /etc/conf.d/display-manager to your preferred DM:

	DISPLAYMANAGER="gdm"

To test the newly installed scripts, you can try to switch to
'display-manager' on the running computer.
Run the following commands in a tty to test your current install:

	rc-service xdm stop
	rc-service display-manager start

If the test succeeds, you can remove the old xdm startup script 
and add display-manager to the default runlevel:

	rc-update del xdm default
	rc-update add display-manager default

Reboot your computer to perform a final test and check to see
that your chosen display manager has started.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [REVIEW] News Item - 2020-10-17-display-manager-init

[Kent Fredric]

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On Sat, 17 Oct 2020 18:05:40 -0400
Aisha Tammy <gentoo.dev@aisha.cc> wrote:

> 	gui-libs/display-manager-init

Uh, do we need a new catagory for this one package?

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [REVIEW] News Item - 2020-10-17-display-manager-init

[Aisha Tammy]

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On 10/17/20 6:41 PM, Kent Fredric wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Oct 2020 18:05:40 -0400
> Aisha Tammy <gentoo.dev@aisha.cc> wrote:
> 
>> 	gui-libs/display-manager-init
> 
> Uh, do we need a new catagory for this one package?
> 

It's already a category, though a little less known one.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [REVIEW] News Item - 2020-10-17-display-manager-init

[Kent Fredric]

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On Sun, 18 Oct 2020 11:41:38 +1300
Kent Fredric <kentnl@gentoo.org> wrote:

> Uh, do we need a new catagory for this one package?

Scratch that, my brain is disabled and my eixing failed the first time
and I jumped because it was a category with no recollection of seeing
before.

Now I see there is one, I do still think "That's a bit weird", but
whatever, not adding a new category -> no issue.

Many apologies.

( Though I still find the choice of category very odd )

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [REVIEW] News Item - 2020-10-17-display-manager-init

[Aisha Tammy]

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On 10/17/20 6:44 PM, Kent Fredric wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Oct 2020 11:41:38 +1300
> Kent Fredric <kentnl@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 
>> Uh, do we need a new catagory for this one package?
> 
> Scratch that, my brain is disabled and my eixing failed the first time
> and I jumped because it was a category with no recollection of seeing
> before.
> 

Lolol, np.

> Now I see there is one, I do still think "That's a bit weird", but
> whatever, not adding a new category -> no issue.
> 
> Many apologies.
> 
> ( Though I still find the choice of category very odd )
> 

Hmmm, I thought of this package as just providing the startup
scripts and not the actual display-manager themselves, so it feels
more like a library (gui-libs) than an app (gui-apps).

Am open to suggestions but this feels OK to me.

Aisha


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [REVIEW] News Item - 2020-10-17-display-manager-init

[Alexey Sokolov]

сб, 17 окт. 2020 г. в 23:05, Aisha Tammy <gentoo.dev@aisha.cc>:
>
> Hi,
>   I'm attaching the news item for the upcoming display-manager-init changes
>
> Thanks,
> Aisha
>
> -----------
>
> Title: New OpenRC Display Manager Initializer Scripts
> Author: Aisha Tammy <gentoo@aisha.cc>
> Posted: 2020-10-17
> Revision: 1
> News-Item-Format: 2.0

This will be shown even if no xdm was installed?

>
> There has been a refactoring of the old 'xdm' init script and its
> requirements from various packages into an independent package:
>
> gui-libs/display-manager-init
>
> This package provides the 'display-manager' startup script for
> handling your chosen display manager, without being dependent on
> Xorg server.
>
> To update to the new DM init scripts, you need to manually add the
> package in your @world set:
>
> emerge -vuDU gui-libs/display-manager-init
>
> To start using the new init scripts, change the DISPLAYMANAGER
> variable in the /etc/conf.d/display-manager to your preferred DM:
>
> DISPLAYMANAGER="gdm"
>
> To test the newly installed scripts, you can try to switch to
> 'display-manager' on the running computer.
> Run the following commands in a tty to test your current install:
>
> rc-service xdm stop
> rc-service display-manager start
>
> If the test succeeds, you can remove the old xdm startup script
> and add display-manager to the default runlevel:
>
> rc-update del xdm default
> rc-update add display-manager default
>
> Reboot your computer to perform a final test and check to see
> that your chosen display manager has started.

What happens if I ignore this news item and do nothing?

Re: [gentoo-dev] [REVIEW] News Item - 2020-10-17-display-manager-init

[Aisha Tammy]

On 10/17/20 6:44 PM, Alexey Sokolov wrote:
> сб, 17 окт. 2020 г. в 23:05, Aisha Tammy <gentoo.dev@aisha.cc>:
>>
>> Hi,
>>   I'm attaching the news item for the upcoming display-manager-init changes
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Aisha
>>
>> -----------
>>
>> Title: New OpenRC Display Manager Initializer Scripts
>> Author: Aisha Tammy <gentoo@aisha.cc>
>> Posted: 2020-10-17
>> Revision: 1
>> News-Item-Format: 2.0
> 
> This will be shown even if no xdm was installed?

Yes, that is true, but there is no xdm package per se (not referring to the 
display manager XDM, but the init script xdm).
This is one of the reasons for the refactoring, because there is no single
provider for xdm, parts of the scripts are present in sysvinit, xinit, xorg-server.
And the overloading of terms for xdm init script and XDM display manager
.
This puts them together into one package, while renaming and clearing the confusion.

A potential check could be for xorg-server, which should be OK, but I 
don't see the harm in being a bit more cautious and letting everyone read 
it.
   
   Display-If-Present: x11-base/xorg-server

> 
>>
>> There has been a refactoring of the old 'xdm' init script and its
>> requirements from various packages into an independent package:
>>
>> gui-libs/display-manager-init
>>
>> This package provides the 'display-manager' startup script for
>> handling your chosen display manager, without being dependent on
>> Xorg server.
>>
>> To update to the new DM init scripts, you need to manually add the
>> package in your @world set:
>>
>> emerge -vuDU gui-libs/display-manager-init
>>
>> To start using the new init scripts, change the DISPLAYMANAGER
>> variable in the /etc/conf.d/display-manager to your preferred DM:
>>
>> DISPLAYMANAGER="gdm"
>>
>> To test the newly installed scripts, you can try to switch to
>> 'display-manager' on the running computer.
>> Run the following commands in a tty to test your current install:
>>
>> rc-service xdm stop
>> rc-service display-manager start
>>
>> If the test succeeds, you can remove the old xdm startup script
>> and add display-manager to the default runlevel:
>>
>> rc-update del xdm default
>> rc-update add display-manager default
>>
>> Reboot your computer to perform a final test and check to see
>> that your chosen display manager has started.
> 
> What happens if I ignore this news item and do nothing?
> 

If you ignore this news item and upgrade your packages without installing
display-manager-init, you will no longer have an 'xdm' init script and you will
not get a gui on boot.

(Don't ignore news items people :P)

Aisha

Re: [gentoo-dev] [REVIEW] News Item - 2020-10-17-display-manager-init

[Alexey Sokolov]

> > What happens if I ignore this news item and do nothing?
> >
>
> If you ignore this news item and upgrade your packages without installing
> display-manager-init, you will no longer have an 'xdm' init script and you will
> not get a gui on boot.
>

Then please state that clearly in the text. Now it looks like a
request to test some new feature, with no particular benefit for the
user. Especially as it does say "test"

Re: [gentoo-dev] [REVIEW] News Item - 2020-10-17-display-manager-init

[Michał Górny]

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On Sat, 2020-10-17 at 18:05 -0400, Aisha Tammy wrote:
> Hi,
>   I'm attaching the news item for the upcoming display-manager-init changes
> 
> Thanks,
> Aisha
> 
> -----------
> 
> Title: New OpenRC Display Manager Initializer Scripts
> Author: Aisha Tammy <gentoo@aisha.cc>
> Posted: 2020-10-17
> Revision: 1
> News-Item-Format: 2.0
> 
> There has been a refactoring of the old 'xdm' init script and its 
> requirements from various packages into an independent package:
> 
> 	gui-libs/display-manager-init
> 
> This package provides the 'display-manager' startup script for 
> handling your chosen display manager, without being dependent on
> Xorg server.
> 
> To update to the new DM init scripts, you need to manually add the
> package in your @world set:
> 
> 	emerge -vuDU gui-libs/display-manager-init
> 
> To start using the new init scripts, change the DISPLAYMANAGER
> variable in the /etc/conf.d/display-manager to your preferred DM:
> 
> 	DISPLAYMANAGER="gdm"
> 

Do you really think a rename for the sake of renaming justifies
requiring all users to rewrite their configuration?  While we're
requiring the users to do that, wouldn't it be better to stop using
the awful layout of 'one script to run them all', and switch to separate
scripts for every DM?

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [REVIEW] News Item - 2020-10-17-display-manager-init

[Joonas Niilola]

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On 10/18/20 8:48 AM, Michał Górny wrote:
> On Sat, 2020-10-17 at 18:05 -0400, Aisha Tammy wrote:
>> This package provides the 'display-manager' startup script for
>> handling your chosen display manager, without being dependent on
>> Xorg server.
being dependent -> depending

>
> Do you really think a rename for the sake of renaming justifies
> requiring all users to rewrite their configuration?  While we're
> requiring the users to do that, wouldn't it be better to stop using
> the awful layout of 'one script to run them all', and switch to separate
> scripts for every DM?
>
This is exactly what I proposed in the previous RFC, systemd already 
works this way and is IMHO a lot clearer to use.

-- juippis


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [REVIEW] News Item - 2020-10-17-display-manager-init

[Aisha Tammy]

On 10/18/20 2:29 AM, Joonas Niilola wrote:
> 
> 
> On 10/18/20 8:48 AM, Michał Górny wrote:
>> On Sat, 2020-10-17 at 18:05 -0400, Aisha Tammy wrote:
>>> This package provides the 'display-manager' startup script for
>>> handling your chosen display manager, without being dependent on
>>> Xorg server.
> being dependent -> depending
> 
>>
>> Do you really think a rename for the sake of renaming justifies
>> requiring all users to rewrite their configuration?  While we're
>> requiring the users to do that, wouldn't it be better to stop using
>> the awful layout of 'one script to run them all', and switch to separate
>> scripts for every DM?
>>
> This is exactly what I proposed in the previous RFC, systemd already works this way and is IMHO a lot clearer to use.
> 
> -- juippis
> 

This would need some more tinkering as OpenRC doesn't have a dedicated
mechanism to control vt's while systemd controls the vts.

IMO systemd is also very centralized, except that it hides it in its internals,
as every services that wants to use a tty has to register with it.
Nothing wrong with that, its a perfectly good method.

I'm curious about why people are averse to a centralized script, it seems to 
be the simpler and cleaner option, atleast to me, presumably as different
scripts for each DM *can* have different working mechanisms, and any fix applied
to one of the DMs might have to be applied to others.

Also the fact that the packages don't supply an OpenRC script on their own so
every package would need an additional file from our end.

Additionally we would need to able to say that each of them is going to conflict
with the other.

Aisha

Re: [gentoo-dev] [REVIEW] News Item - 2020-10-17-display-manager-init

[Gordon Pettey]

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On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 6:02 AM Aisha Tammy <gentoo.dev@aisha.cc> wrote:

> On 10/18/20 2:29 AM, Joonas Niilola wrote:
> > On 10/18/20 8:48 AM, Michał Górny wrote:
> >> Do you really think a rename for the sake of renaming justifies
> >> requiring all users to rewrite their configuration?  While we're
> >> requiring the users to do that, wouldn't it be better to stop using
> >> the awful layout of 'one script to run them all', and switch to separate
> >> scripts for every DM?
> >>
> > This is exactly what I proposed in the previous RFC, systemd already
> works this way and is IMHO a lot clearer to use.
> >
> > -- juippis
> >
>
> This would need some more tinkering as OpenRC doesn't have a dedicated
> mechanism to control vt's while systemd controls the vts.
>

Aside from that...

Additionally we would need to able to say that each of them is going to
> conflict
> with the other.
>

What conflict? Each package should have an init script with a matching
name. The only conflict might arise from
putting both in the same runlevel (assuming they don't just take the next
available VT). If a user wants to try out
a different DM, it is simpler IMHO to
/etc/init.d/old-dm stop && /etc/init.d/new-dm start
than editing xdm.conf. If new-dm crashes the system for whatever reason, no
need to remember to edit xdm.conf
to restore your old choice; just reboot and old-dm which was in the default
runlevel is still your DM.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [REVIEW] News Item - 2020-10-17-display-manager-init

[Aisha Tammy]

On 10/18/20 9:40 AM, Gordon Pettey wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 6:02 AM Aisha Tammy <gentoo.dev@aisha.cc> wrote:
> 
>     On 10/18/20 2:29 AM, Joonas Niilola wrote:
>     > On 10/18/20 8:48 AM, Michał Górny wrote:
>     >> Do you really think a rename for the sake of renaming justifies
>     >> requiring all users to rewrite their configuration?  While we're
>     >> requiring the users to do that, wouldn't it be better to stop using
>     >> the awful layout of 'one script to run them all', and switch to separate
>     >> scripts for every DM?
>     >>
>     > This is exactly what I proposed in the previous RFC, systemd already works this way and is IMHO a lot clearer to use.
>     >
>     > -- juippis
>     >
> 
>     This would need some more tinkering as OpenRC doesn't have a dedicated
>     mechanism to control vt's while systemd controls the vts.
> 
> 
> Aside from that...
> 
>     Additionally we would need to able to say that each of them is going to conflict
>     with the other.
> 
> 
> What conflict? Each package should have an init script with a matching name. The only conflict might arise from
> putting both in the same runlevel (assuming they don't just take the next available VT). If a user wants to try out

Making them take the next VT is the crucial point, as OpenRC 
doesn't keep track of which VTs are currently used.
You can use openvt from sys-apps/kbd to check if a VT is
free or not (stolen from slashbeast in the PR)

    openvt -c ${VT_N:-7} true >/dev/null 2>&1
 
This has race conditions when being used with openrc parallel
starts as two DMs can check for VT 7 being free and then try
to start on VT 7 in parallel, which is not cool.

This means that we need to make sure to only have ONE of the DM
scripts is enabled in the default runlevel (not a good idea to put 
them in other runlevels).

Aisha

> a different DM, it is simpler IMHO to
> /etc/init.d/old-dm stop && /etc/init.d/new-dm start
> than editing xdm.conf. If new-dm crashes the system for whatever reason, no need to remember to edit xdm.conf
> to restore your old choice; just reboot and old-dm which was in the default runlevel is still your DM.

Re: [gentoo-dev] [REVIEW] News Item - 2020-10-17-display-manager-init

[Ulrich Mueller]

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>>>>> On Sun, 18 Oct 2020, Michał Górny wrote:

> Do you really think a rename for the sake of renaming justifies
> requiring all users to rewrite their configuration?  While we're
> requiring the users to do that, wouldn't it be better to stop using
> the awful layout of 'one script to run them all', and switch to separate
> scripts for every DM?

Alternatively, don't rename the init script, in the first place.

Ulrich

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [REVIEW] News Item - 2020-10-17-display-manager-init

[Ulrich Mueller]

>>>>> On Sun, 18 Oct 2020, Aisha Tammy wrote:

> This package provides the 'display-manager' startup script for 
> handling your chosen display manager, without being dependent on
> Xorg server.

There wasn't any consensus about renaming xdm to display-manager.

Ulrich

Re: [gentoo-dev] [REVIEW] News Item - 2020-10-17-display-manager-init

[Mikle Kolyada]

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18.10.2020 01:05, Aisha Tammy пишет:
> Hi,
>   I'm attaching the news item for the upcoming display-manager-init
> changes
>
> Thanks,
> Aisha
>
> -----------
>
> Title: New OpenRC Display Manager Initializer Scripts
> Author: Aisha Tammy <gentoo@aisha.cc>
> Posted: 2020-10-17
> Revision: 1
> News-Item-Format: 2.0
>
>

Systemd users have nothing to do with this news item, so please make it
openrc-dependent.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [REVIEW] News Item - 2020-10-17-display-manager-init

[Aisha Tammy]

On 10/18/20 8:22 AM, Mikle Kolyada wrote:
> 
> 18.10.2020 01:05, Aisha Tammy пишет:
>> Hi,
>>   I'm attaching the news item for the upcoming display-manager-init changes
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Aisha
>>
>> -----------
>>
>> Title: New OpenRC Display Manager Initializer Scripts
>> Author: Aisha Tammy <gentoo@aisha.cc>
>> Posted: 2020-10-17
>> Revision: 1
>> News-Item-Format: 2.0
>>
>>
> 
> Systemd users have nothing to do with this news item, so please make it openrc-dependent.
> 
Sounds good.

Re: [gentoo-dev] [REVIEW] News Item - 2020-10-17-display-manager-init

[Aisha Tammy]

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Hi,
   I've attached the updated news item.
It now depends on openrc and the wording has been improved to
make it less ambiguous about it being optional.

Aisha


Title: New OpenRC Display Manager Initializer Scripts
Author: Aisha Tammy <gentoo@aisha.cc>
Posted: 2020-10-22
Revision: 2
News-Item-Format: 2.0
Display-If-Installed: sys-apps/openrc

There has been a refactoring of the old 'xdm' init script and its
requirements from various packages into an independent package:

	gui-libs/display-manager-init

This package provides the 'display-manager' startup script for
handling your chosen display manager, without being dependent on
Xorg server.

To update to the new DM init scripts, you need to manually add the
package in your @world set:

	emerge -vuDU gui-libs/display-manager-init

To start using the new init scripts, change the DISPLAYMANAGER
variable in the /etc/conf.d/display-manager to your preferred DM:

	DISPLAYMANAGER="gdm"

and remove 'xdm' from the default runlevel and add 'display-manager':

	rc-update del xdm default
	rc-update add display-manager default

The changes are complete and on the next reboot, 'display-manager'
will start your chosen DM.

To switch to the new scripts without rebooting, run the following
commands in a tty:

	rc-service xdm stop
	rc-service display-manager start


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [REVIEW] News Item - 2020-10-17-display-manager-init

[Ulrich Mueller]

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>>>>> On Thu, 22 Oct 2020, Aisha Tammy wrote:

> and remove 'xdm' from the default runlevel and add 'display-manager':

> 	rc-update del xdm default
> 	rc-update add display-manager default

So, no automatic upgrade path for users? I am asking again, what is the
rationale for renaming?

I agree that "display-manager" might be a slightly better name than
"xdm", but that's more than outweighted by the trouble that the renaming
would impose on users.

Ulrich

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [REVIEW] News Item - 2020-10-17-display-manager-init

[Aisha Tammy]

On 10/23/20 3:50 AM, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 22 Oct 2020, Aisha Tammy wrote:
> 
>> and remove 'xdm' from the default runlevel and add 'display-manager':
> 
>> 	rc-update del xdm default
>> 	rc-update add display-manager default
> 
> So, no automatic upgrade path for users? I am asking again, what is the
> rationale for renaming?
> 
> I agree that "display-manager" might be a slightly better name than
> "xdm", but that's more than outweighted by the trouble that the renaming
> would impose on users.
> 
> Ulrich
> 
I could run these commands conditionally in postinst to make this
an automatic upgrade for people who have 'xdm' currently installed and
enabled in the default runlevel.

But I really don't think that running these commands is that big an
inconvenience.

Re: [gentoo-dev] [REVIEW] News Item - 2020-10-17-display-manager-init

[Ulrich Mueller]

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>>>>> On Fri, 23 Oct 2020, Aisha Tammy wrote:

> I could run these commands conditionally in postinst to make this
> an automatic upgrade for people who have 'xdm' currently installed and
> enabled in the default runlevel.

> But I really don't think that running these commands is that big an
> inconvenience.

It is more inconvenient than _not_ having to run them. IMHO that is
sufficient reason to stay away from renaming.

Ulrich

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