* [gentoo-dev] special small-files USE flag without effect on dependencies: [ unicode ] @ 2024-02-09 15:23 Andrey Grozin 2024-02-09 15:43 ` Mike Gilbert ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 26+ messages in thread From: Andrey Grozin @ 2024-02-09 15:23 UTC (permalink / raw) To: gentoo-dev Hello *, pkgcheck complains about each new version of dev-lisp/sbcl: UseFlagWithoutDeps: version 2.4.1: special small-files USE flag without effect on dependencies: [ unicode ] The USE flag "unicode" in the sbcl ebuild has nothing to do with installing / not installing any files, small or otherwise. It determins whether the produced lisp will support unicode internally: sbcl_feature "$(usep unicode)" ":sb-unicode" Usually this is desirable, so, in USE we have +unicode. Is there a way to silence these warnings? Andrey ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] special small-files USE flag without effect on dependencies: [ unicode ] 2024-02-09 15:23 [gentoo-dev] special small-files USE flag without effect on dependencies: [ unicode ] Andrey Grozin @ 2024-02-09 15:43 ` Mike Gilbert 2024-02-09 15:54 ` Ionen Wolkens 2024-02-09 23:52 ` Sam James 2 siblings, 0 replies; 26+ messages in thread From: Mike Gilbert @ 2024-02-09 15:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: gentoo-dev On Fri, Feb 9, 2024 at 10:23 AM Andrey Grozin <grozin@woodpecker.gentoo.org> wrote: > > Hello *, > > pkgcheck complains about each new version of dev-lisp/sbcl: > > UseFlagWithoutDeps: version 2.4.1: special small-files USE flag without > effect on dependencies: [ unicode ] > > The USE flag "unicode" in the sbcl ebuild has nothing to do with > installing / not installing any files, small or otherwise. It determins > whether the produced lisp will support unicode internally: > > sbcl_feature "$(usep unicode)" ":sb-unicode" > > Usually this is desirable, so, in USE we have +unicode. Is there a way to > silence these warnings? Is there some reason not to enable this unconditionally? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] special small-files USE flag without effect on dependencies: [ unicode ] 2024-02-09 15:23 [gentoo-dev] special small-files USE flag without effect on dependencies: [ unicode ] Andrey Grozin 2024-02-09 15:43 ` Mike Gilbert @ 2024-02-09 15:54 ` Ionen Wolkens 2024-02-09 16:07 ` Michael Orlitzky 2024-02-09 23:52 ` Sam James 2 siblings, 1 reply; 26+ messages in thread From: Ionen Wolkens @ 2024-02-09 15:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 789 bytes --] On Fri, Feb 09, 2024 at 03:23:10PM +0000, Andrey Grozin wrote: > Hello *, > > pkgcheck complains about each new version of dev-lisp/sbcl: > > UseFlagWithoutDeps: version 2.4.1: special small-files USE flag without > effect on dependencies: [ unicode ] > > The USE flag "unicode" in the sbcl ebuild has nothing to do with > installing / not installing any files, small or otherwise. It determins > whether the produced lisp will support unicode internally: > > sbcl_feature "$(usep unicode)" ":sb-unicode" > > Usually this is desirable, so, in USE we have +unicode. Is there a way to > silence these warnings? Is there even any reason to ever disable unicode support? Point is that why have USE for it? Or does it introduce additional dependencies? -- ionen [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 488 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] special small-files USE flag without effect on dependencies: [ unicode ] 2024-02-09 15:54 ` Ionen Wolkens @ 2024-02-09 16:07 ` Michael Orlitzky 2024-02-09 16:57 ` Mike Gilbert 0 siblings, 1 reply; 26+ messages in thread From: Michael Orlitzky @ 2024-02-09 16:07 UTC (permalink / raw) To: gentoo-dev On Fri, 2024-02-09 at 10:54 -0500, Ionen Wolkens wrote: > > Is there even any reason to ever disable unicode support? Point is that > why have USE for it? Or does it introduce additional dependencies? Being able to disable things like this is one of the few reasons why people choose Gentoo. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] special small-files USE flag without effect on dependencies: [ unicode ] 2024-02-09 16:07 ` Michael Orlitzky @ 2024-02-09 16:57 ` Mike Gilbert 2024-02-09 17:17 ` Michael Orlitzky 0 siblings, 1 reply; 26+ messages in thread From: Mike Gilbert @ 2024-02-09 16:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: gentoo-dev On Fri, Feb 9, 2024 at 11:07 AM Michael Orlitzky <mjo@gentoo.org> wrote: > > On Fri, 2024-02-09 at 10:54 -0500, Ionen Wolkens wrote: > > > > Is there even any reason to ever disable unicode support? Point is that > > why have USE for it? Or does it introduce additional dependencies? > > Being able to disable things like this is one of the few reasons why > people choose Gentoo. Based on this pkgcheck issue, this originates from a decision from by Gentoo QA team. https://github.com/pkgcore/pkgcheck/issues/414#issuecomment-1213057268 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] special small-files USE flag without effect on dependencies: [ unicode ] 2024-02-09 16:57 ` Mike Gilbert @ 2024-02-09 17:17 ` Michael Orlitzky 2024-02-09 18:40 ` Mike Gilbert 2024-02-09 19:09 ` Eli Schwartz 0 siblings, 2 replies; 26+ messages in thread From: Michael Orlitzky @ 2024-02-09 17:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: gentoo-dev On Fri, 2024-02-09 at 11:57 -0500, Mike Gilbert wrote: > > Based on this pkgcheck issue, this originates from a decision from by > Gentoo QA team. > > https://github.com/pkgcore/pkgcheck/issues/414#issuecomment-1213057268 > Thanks for the dig. I agree with the reasoning for things like USE=bash-completion and USE=vim-syntax, where the added complexity of a flag is not justified to avoid installing small files. In those cases, the additional files simply don't do anything if you don't (for example) use vim. USE=unicode and USE=ipv6 are different beasts. In many cases they directly and immediately change the behavior of the package. I think that there are good reasons to want those two disabled, but the user's reasoning shouldn't really matter. The only "problem" in this case is the pkgcheck warning. Upstream supports it, the maintainer supports it, it works, users might want it, and it's one of our selling points. Given all of that, I'm leery of treating it like some kind of mistake. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] special small-files USE flag without effect on dependencies: [ unicode ] 2024-02-09 17:17 ` Michael Orlitzky @ 2024-02-09 18:40 ` Mike Gilbert 2024-02-09 19:09 ` Eli Schwartz 1 sibling, 0 replies; 26+ messages in thread From: Mike Gilbert @ 2024-02-09 18:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: gentoo-dev On Fri, Feb 9, 2024 at 12:17 PM Michael Orlitzky <mjo@gentoo.org> wrote: > > On Fri, 2024-02-09 at 11:57 -0500, Mike Gilbert wrote: > > > > Based on this pkgcheck issue, this originates from a decision from by > > Gentoo QA team. > > > > https://github.com/pkgcore/pkgcheck/issues/414#issuecomment-1213057268 > > > > Thanks for the dig. I agree with the reasoning for things like > USE=bash-completion and USE=vim-syntax, where the added complexity of a > flag is not justified to avoid installing small files. In those cases, > the additional files simply don't do anything if you don't (for > example) use vim. > > USE=unicode and USE=ipv6 are different beasts. In many cases they > directly and immediately change the behavior of the package. In most cases I have seen, it makes more sense to toggle the behavior at runtime rather than disabling functionality at build time. Exposing build flags for stuff that can be toggled at runtime is added complexity for little benefit. It sometimes even makes maintaining the ebuild and dependent packages more difficult. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] special small-files USE flag without effect on dependencies: [ unicode ] 2024-02-09 17:17 ` Michael Orlitzky 2024-02-09 18:40 ` Mike Gilbert @ 2024-02-09 19:09 ` Eli Schwartz 2024-02-09 19:57 ` Michael Orlitzky 1 sibling, 1 reply; 26+ messages in thread From: Eli Schwartz @ 2024-02-09 19:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1.1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1822 bytes --] On 2/9/24 12:17 PM, Michael Orlitzky wrote: > USE=unicode and USE=ipv6 are different beasts. In many cases they > directly and immediately change the behavior of the package. I think > that there are good reasons to want those two disabled, but the user's > reasoning shouldn't really matter. The only "problem" in this case is > the pkgcheck warning. Upstream supports it, the maintainer supports it, > it works, users might want it, and it's one of our selling points. > Given all of that, I'm leery of treating it like some kind of mistake. Asking out of genuine ignorance: what kind of direct behavioral changes occur as a result of setting or unsetting USE=ipv6. I'm assuming that: - users who don't want ipv6 are also masking it in the kernel at runtime - users who do want ipv6 consider it a bug if the direct and immediate change is that the software is "broken because it fails due to lack of ipv6 support" Along a similar line: I've never touched sbcl so again, I have *no* clue what its deal is and am just curious: what are the advantages and disadvantages of setting USE=unicode on it? In particular since it defaults to on, under what circumstances would someone wish to unset it? "There are good reasons" is pretty vague. I assume the reason is more interesting than "when it is disabled, the package is buggy and broken for certain use cases which the user has explicitly chosen to not care about". Does it make the package smaller? Does it avoid depending on additional packages? (no...) Are unicode strings sometimes bad to have, but users cannot choose the string type except by recompiling the programming language itself? (Okay if that is the case, but that seems a strange decision for a programming language to make...) -- Eli Schwartz [-- Attachment #1.1.2: OpenPGP public key --] [-- Type: application/pgp-keys, Size: 18399 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] special small-files USE flag without effect on dependencies: [ unicode ] 2024-02-09 19:09 ` Eli Schwartz @ 2024-02-09 19:57 ` Michael Orlitzky 2024-02-09 21:04 ` Eli Schwartz 2024-02-10 0:00 ` Sam James 0 siblings, 2 replies; 26+ messages in thread From: Michael Orlitzky @ 2024-02-09 19:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: gentoo-dev On Fri, 2024-02-09 at 14:09 -0500, Eli Schwartz wrote: > > Asking out of genuine ignorance: what kind of direct behavioral changes > occur as a result of setting or unsetting USE=ipv6. One example I know off the top of my head is dev-lang/php where USE=ipv6 isn't entirely about ipv6 connectivity (although it does do that). It also augments some of the user-facing PHP language functions with ipv6 support. Having them enabled is not a big deal, and PHP is a programming language so you may say that it's atypical, but... for a package that gets a new CVE every week and sits on the public web, I'd just rather have it off? Unicode support is similar in my mind. Adding "unicode support" to a package might be easy (at the cost of some extra memory), but dealing with the consequences of unicode is harder. Maybe I don't want to worry about homoglyphs and bidirectional text when I'm validating a hostname? Life is just simpler without it, if you know you don't need it. Things also tend to be more space and memory efficient with features compiled out; not to mention that the compile times themselves are improved. You're still pulling in "extra dependencies," in a sense, even if they're in the same tarball. I really don't want to fall into a trap where I make up reasons why other people might want to do things and everyone says my reasons are stupid. Everyone is going to have different reasons, and we have a lot of users who are our users because they're edge cases. It's not unfathomably stupid to build a package without ipv6 or unicode support (whatever that means), and there are no small files to worry about, so I don't think they deserve the special negative treatment. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] special small-files USE flag without effect on dependencies: [ unicode ] 2024-02-09 19:57 ` Michael Orlitzky @ 2024-02-09 21:04 ` Eli Schwartz 2024-02-09 21:25 ` Michael Orlitzky 2024-02-10 0:04 ` Sam James 2024-02-10 0:00 ` Sam James 1 sibling, 2 replies; 26+ messages in thread From: Eli Schwartz @ 2024-02-09 21:04 UTC (permalink / raw) To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1.1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4703 bytes --] On 2/9/24 2:57 PM, Michael Orlitzky wrote: > One example I know off the top of my head is dev-lang/php where > USE=ipv6 isn't entirely about ipv6 connectivity (although it does do > that). It also augments some of the user-facing PHP language functions > with ipv6 support. Having them enabled is not a big deal, and PHP is a > programming language so you may say that it's atypical, but... for a > package that gets a new CVE every week and sits on the public web, I'd > just rather have it off? Counterpoint: some PHP program out there is probably vulnerable because it tried to validate an ipv6 address and could not distinguish between "it's okay" and "idk if it's okay, the function you called does not exist" (because php is really that terrible of a language). I'm confused why you think compiling or not compiling in support for part of a programming language is supposed to make CVEs *less* likely to happen, rather than more likely? In the most optimistic scenario, it's a denial of service CVE because part of the programming language got deleted, instead of a remote code execution vulnerability because the application didn't correctly handle the consequences of silently returning NULL. > Unicode support is similar in my mind. Adding "unicode support" to a > package might be easy (at the cost of some extra memory), but dealing > with the consequences of unicode is harder. Maybe I don't want to worry > about homoglyphs and bidirectional text when I'm validating a hostname? > Life is just simpler without it, if you know you don't need it. ... and this is a property of the way you build the programming language rather than your choice of APIs when you compile your own software *using* sbcl? > Things > also tend to be more space and memory efficient with features compiled > out; not to mention that the compile times themselves are improved. > You're still pulling in "extra dependencies," in a sense, even if > they're in the same tarball. That sounds trivial to demonstrate. Can you describe the timings on how long a src_compile takes with and without this USE flag? What is the resulting size of the package? I will note that using -march=native also has an effect on compile time, and space and memory efficiency. But it is a feature of your CFLAGS, not USE. This invites another thought, for me. Gentoo doesn't necessarily need to support every possible option, since package.env can set EXTRA_ECONF, MYMESONARGS, MYCMAKEARGS. eclass-based overrides, too, are part of "Gentoo is about choice". I use this myself for things that aren't controllable as USE flags. > I really don't want to fall into a trap where I make up reasons why > other people might want to do things and everyone says my reasons are > stupid. Everyone is going to have different reasons, and we have a lot > of users who are our users because they're edge cases. > > It's not unfathomably stupid to build a package without ipv6 or unicode > support (whatever that means), and there are no small files to worry > about, so I don't think they deserve the special negative treatment. Maintainability matters too. So does user experience in the other direction: too many USE flags will lead users to confusion if they don't understand what all those flags do, and accidentally choose the wrong answer. That's not necessarily a reason to remove choice, so much as it is a reason to... carefully document what that choice actually gets you. $ equery -N uses sbcl | grep unicode + + unicode : Add support for Unicode This is... vague. Good to know that it is enabled by default, but... what? What does it do? There is no description in metadata.xml, either. I think it is fair and reasonable for people to ask people's reasons are for doing something when it is not actually obvious what the point is. And when a USE flag selects or deselects dependencies, it is very easy to know, what exactly "the point" is. Often, USE flags have an obvious point even without selecting or deselecting dependencies -- usually because their maintainers took care in describing it in metadata.xml. If people disagree about the specific choice itself, that's one thing (and Gentoo values respecting all sides, though not unconditionally so -- see libressl and eudev for examples where choice was booted out of ::gentoo, and people were told they'd have to homebrew their own overlays if they wanted that choice). It's another thing entirely when people cannot see what the choice actually is, and start suspecting that there is no choice, "the choice is a lie". -- Eli Schwartz [-- Attachment #1.1.2: OpenPGP public key --] [-- Type: application/pgp-keys, Size: 18399 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] special small-files USE flag without effect on dependencies: [ unicode ] 2024-02-09 21:04 ` Eli Schwartz @ 2024-02-09 21:25 ` Michael Orlitzky 2024-02-09 21:56 ` Eli Schwartz 2024-02-10 0:04 ` Sam James 1 sibling, 1 reply; 26+ messages in thread From: Michael Orlitzky @ 2024-02-09 21:25 UTC (permalink / raw) To: gentoo-dev On Fri, 2024-02-09 at 16:04 -0500, Eli Schwartz wrote: > > Counterpoint: some PHP program out there is probably vulnerable because > it tried to validate an ipv6 address and could not distinguish between > "it's okay" and "idk if it's okay, the function you called does not > exist" (because php is really that terrible of a language). > > I'm confused why you think compiling or not compiling in support for > part of a programming language is supposed to make CVEs *less* likely to > happen, rather than more likely? This is the part where you try to convince me that the things I want are stupid. OK. I don't care. I want it off. Leave me alone :) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] special small-files USE flag without effect on dependencies: [ unicode ] 2024-02-09 21:25 ` Michael Orlitzky @ 2024-02-09 21:56 ` Eli Schwartz 2024-02-09 22:56 ` stefan11111 2024-02-10 11:22 ` orbea 0 siblings, 2 replies; 26+ messages in thread From: Eli Schwartz @ 2024-02-09 21:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1.1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1287 bytes --] On 2/9/24 4:25 PM, Michael Orlitzky wrote: > This is the part where you try to convince me that the things I want > are stupid. OK. I don't care. I want it off. Leave me alone :) As evidenced by the removal of libressl and eudev, this logic is fallacious and wrong and not the way Gentoo is developed. Gentoo does indeed discuss the things that people want, and try to determine whether they are useful to users, whether they are a placebo, and whether they are maintainable or have an adverse effect either on users or on the effort to maintain a consistent tree. So circling back around to the start of the thread: > pkgcheck complains about each new version of dev-lisp/sbcl: It is the allegation of the QA team that the option is a lie, it contains no purpose or value and doesn't contribute to use choice, and pkgcheck is reporting the QA team's allegation. If you wish to convince the QA team otherwise, be my guest... but I would personally encourage you to come up with a better argument than "the option makes me feel better about myself, I don't care what you have to say, just leave my options alone goshdarnit; I have the right to be stupid". Because I don't think you're likely to convince anyone like that. Sorry. -- Eli Schwartz [-- Attachment #1.1.2: OpenPGP public key --] [-- Type: application/pgp-keys, Size: 18399 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] special small-files USE flag without effect on dependencies: [ unicode ] 2024-02-09 21:56 ` Eli Schwartz @ 2024-02-09 22:56 ` stefan11111 2024-02-10 0:03 ` Matt Jolly 2024-02-10 11:48 ` David Seifert 2024-02-10 11:22 ` orbea 1 sibling, 2 replies; 26+ messages in thread From: stefan11111 @ 2024-02-09 22:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: gentoo-dev On 2024-02-09 21:56, Eli Schwartz wrote: > On 2/9/24 4:25 PM, Michael Orlitzky wrote: >> This is the part where you try to convince me that the things I want >> are stupid. OK. I don't care. I want it off. Leave me alone :) > > > As evidenced by the removal of libressl and eudev, this logic is > fallacious and wrong and not the way Gentoo is developed. > Both removals definitely not still being contested and debated. > Gentoo does indeed discuss the things that people want, and try to > determine whether they are useful to users, whether they are a placebo, > and whether they are maintainable or have an adverse effect either on > users or on the effort to maintain a consistent tree. > > So circling back around to the start of the thread: > >> pkgcheck complains about each new version of dev-lisp/sbcl: > > It is the allegation of the QA team that the option is a lie, it > contains no purpose or value and doesn't contribute to use choice, and > pkgcheck is reporting the QA team's allegation. > > If you wish to convince the QA team otherwise, be my guest... but I > would personally encourage you to come up with a better argument than > "the option makes me feel better about myself, I don't care what you > have to say, just leave my options alone goshdarnit; I have the right > to > be stupid". > > Because I don't think you're likely to convince anyone like that. > Sorry. Maybe support as much choice as possible, and not act like you know what users want better that the users themselves. -- Linux-gentoo-x86_64-Intel-R-_Core-TM-_i5-7400_CPU_@_3.00GHz COMMON_FLAGS="-O3 -pipe -march=native -ftree-vectorize -ffast-math -funswitch-loops -fuse-linker-plugin -flto -fdevirtualize-at-ltrans -fno-plt -fno-semantic-interposition -fno-common -falign-functions=64 -fgraphite-identity -floop-nest-optimize" USE="-* git verify-sig rsync-verify man alsa X grub ssl ipv6 lto libressl olde-gentoo asm native-symlinks threads jit jumbo-build minimal strip system-man" INSTALL_MASK="/etc/systemd /lib/systemd /usr/lib/systemd /usr/lib/modules-load.d /usr/lib/tmpfiles.d *tmpfiles* /var/lib/dbus /lib/udev /usr/share/icons /usr/share/applications /usr/share/gtk-3.0/emoji" ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] special small-files USE flag without effect on dependencies: [ unicode ] 2024-02-09 22:56 ` stefan11111 @ 2024-02-10 0:03 ` Matt Jolly 2024-02-10 11:48 ` David Seifert 1 sibling, 0 replies; 26+ messages in thread From: Matt Jolly @ 2024-02-10 0:03 UTC (permalink / raw) To: gentoo-dev On 10/2/24 08:56, stefan11111 wrote: > Both removals definitely not still being contested and debated. You've conveniently ignored the context immediately below the line that you chose to quote and somehow decided to try and shoehorn in discussion of a completely different (and settled) issue. Congratulations, it's not often that I get to open my emails in the morning and untangle several different flavours of wrong in only a single line! > Maybe support as much choice as possible, and not act like you know what > users want better that the users themselves. FYI I don't appreciate your tone. Purge it down a little next time, please? Knowing what's best for users, especially when the users in question appear to be willfully misinformed, is actually part of a developer's job description. We even have a fancy section of the dev manual that's all about not adding superfluous USE flags because we've learnt through experience that providing a toggle for every single little thing in a package is not, in fact, beneficial to users overall. https://devmanual.gentoo.org/general-concepts/use-flags/index.html#when-not-to-use-use-flags Users _rely_ on developers to make sane decisions on their behalf, particularly around which USE options should exist and be togglable and which options it makes sense to just hard enable or disable in the configure step. In general we don't expect users to have an in-depth knowledge of an upstream build system; they don't need to be across the implementation details of every single configure option, they just need to trust the options enabled by ebuild developers (and by extension the decisions made by the wider project, including [and especially] areas like QA). In addition to this there are mechanisms through which a user can choose to override the decisions made within an ebuild, including but not limited to the already-mentioned EXTRA_ECONF, MYMESONARGS, MYCMAKEARGS in package.env. TL;DR: Methinks thou dost make too great a mountain of that which is but a molehill On to the main subject, we already default USE=unicode to on in the ebuild and a browse over the sbcl docs suggests that it's also the upstream default and is unlikely to break anything given that it's been that way since version 0.8.17 and we're well into major version 2 by now. Just drop the USE and default it to on - QA is right in this case: in the absence of a compelling reason to keep the USE it should be dropped. Cheers, Matt ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] special small-files USE flag without effect on dependencies: [ unicode ] 2024-02-09 22:56 ` stefan11111 2024-02-10 0:03 ` Matt Jolly @ 2024-02-10 11:48 ` David Seifert 2024-02-10 17:26 ` stefan11111 1 sibling, 1 reply; 26+ messages in thread From: David Seifert @ 2024-02-10 11:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: gentoo-dev On Fri, 2024-02-09 at 22:56 +0000, stefan11111 wrote: > On 2024-02-09 21:56, Eli Schwartz wrote: > > On 2/9/24 4:25 PM, Michael Orlitzky wrote: > > > This is the part where you try to convince me that the things I > > > want > > > are stupid. OK. I don't care. I want it off. Leave me alone :) > > > > > > As evidenced by the removal of libressl and eudev, this logic is > > fallacious and wrong and not the way Gentoo is developed. > > > > Both removals definitely not still being contested and debated. > > > Gentoo does indeed discuss the things that people want, and try to > > determine whether they are useful to users, whether they are a > > placebo, > > and whether they are maintainable or have an adverse effect either > > on > > users or on the effort to maintain a consistent tree. > > > > So circling back around to the start of the thread: > > > > > pkgcheck complains about each new version of dev-lisp/sbcl: > > > > It is the allegation of the QA team that the option is a lie, it > > contains no purpose or value and doesn't contribute to use choice, > > and > > pkgcheck is reporting the QA team's allegation. > > > > If you wish to convince the QA team otherwise, be my guest... but I > > would personally encourage you to come up with a better argument > > than > > "the option makes me feel better about myself, I don't care what you > > have to say, just leave my options alone goshdarnit; I have the > > right > > to > > be stupid". > > > > Because I don't think you're likely to convince anyone like that. > > Sorry. > > Maybe support as much choice as possible, and not act like you know > what > users want better that the users themselves. > Are users like you going to maintain and fix these obscure bugs too? I don't recall seeing you sending in many fixes or patches, yet you seem to be demanding that we go out of our way to accommodate you. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] special small-files USE flag without effect on dependencies: [ unicode ] 2024-02-10 11:48 ` David Seifert @ 2024-02-10 17:26 ` stefan11111 2024-02-11 0:58 ` Eli Schwartz 0 siblings, 1 reply; 26+ messages in thread From: stefan11111 @ 2024-02-10 17:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: gentoo-dev On 2024-02-10 11:48, David Seifert wrote: > > Are users like you going to maintain and fix these obscure bugs too? I > don't recall seeing you sending in many fixes or patches, yet you seem > to be demanding that we go out of our way to accommodate you. I've sent and made plenty of patches to support my use cases. I usually don't send patches to the ml and instead link them in bug reports, forum posts, etc. Feel free to pull patches from my overlay or any other repo I have: https://github.com/stefan11111/stefan_overlay/ -- Linux-gentoo-x86_64-Intel-R-_Core-TM-_i5-7400_CPU_@_3.00GHz COMMON_FLAGS="-O3 -pipe -march=native -ftree-vectorize -ffast-math -funswitch-loops -fuse-linker-plugin -flto -fdevirtualize-at-ltrans -fno-plt -fno-semantic-interposition -fno-common -falign-functions=64 -fgraphite-identity -floop-nest-optimize" USE="-* git verify-sig rsync-verify man alsa X grub ssl ipv6 lto libressl olde-gentoo asm native-symlinks threads jit jumbo-build minimal strip system-man" INSTALL_MASK="/etc/systemd /lib/systemd /usr/lib/systemd /usr/lib/modules-load.d /usr/lib/tmpfiles.d *tmpfiles* /var/lib/dbus /lib/udev /usr/share/icons /usr/share/applications /usr/share/gtk-3.0/emoji" ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] special small-files USE flag without effect on dependencies: [ unicode ] 2024-02-10 17:26 ` stefan11111 @ 2024-02-11 0:58 ` Eli Schwartz 0 siblings, 0 replies; 26+ messages in thread From: Eli Schwartz @ 2024-02-11 0:58 UTC (permalink / raw) To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1.1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1223 bytes --] On 2/10/24 12:26 PM, stefan11111 wrote: > On 2024-02-10 11:48, David Seifert wrote: >> >> Are users like you going to maintain and fix these obscure bugs too? I >> don't recall seeing you sending in many fixes or patches, yet you seem >> to be demanding that we go out of our way to accommodate you. > > I've sent and made plenty of patches to support my use cases. > I usually don't send patches to the ml and instead link them in bug > reports, forum posts, etc. > > Feel free to pull patches from my overlay or any other repo I have: > https://github.com/stefan11111/stefan_overlay/ From every patch you've demonstrated in the past, my overall impression is that you put zero effort into attempting to convince others, zero effort into making the patches capable of supporting the toggleable use case (no, commenting out lines wholesale is not a suitable patch, adding a build option and an ifelse would be) and basically, in short... ... you've behaved in a way that guarantees that no patches of yours will ever be merged upstream. This is personally sad to me because I actually do think a number of them would make good toggleable feature options for upstream. -- Eli Schwartz [-- Attachment #1.1.2: OpenPGP public key --] [-- Type: application/pgp-keys, Size: 18399 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] special small-files USE flag without effect on dependencies: [ unicode ] 2024-02-09 21:56 ` Eli Schwartz 2024-02-09 22:56 ` stefan11111 @ 2024-02-10 11:22 ` orbea 2024-02-11 0:58 ` Eli Schwartz 1 sibling, 1 reply; 26+ messages in thread From: orbea @ 2024-02-10 11:22 UTC (permalink / raw) To: gentoo-dev On Fri, 9 Feb 2024 16:56:55 -0500 Eli Schwartz <eschwartz93@gmail.com> wrote: > On 2/9/24 4:25 PM, Michael Orlitzky wrote: > > This is the part where you try to convince me that the things I want > > are stupid. OK. I don't care. I want it off. Leave me alone :) > > > As evidenced by the removal of libressl and eudev, this logic is > fallacious and wrong and not the way Gentoo is developed. Fwiw I still use both and Gentoo removing specifically Libressl has only been detrimental. There is a huge amount of extra and redundant maintainer work when all of the fixes have to be applied over and over again without changes as the main Gentoo repo gets updated. Its relatively rare that the fixes have to be rebased or changed against their respective upstream, but rebasing it against Gentoo is an extremely common and tedious task. Your argument is invalid and not appreciated. > > Gentoo does indeed discuss the things that people want, and try to > determine whether they are useful to users, whether they are a > placebo, and whether they are maintainable or have an adverse effect > either on users or on the effort to maintain a consistent tree. > > So circling back around to the start of the thread: > > > pkgcheck complains about each new version of dev-lisp/sbcl: > > It is the allegation of the QA team that the option is a lie, it > contains no purpose or value and doesn't contribute to use choice, and > pkgcheck is reporting the QA team's allegation. > > If you wish to convince the QA team otherwise, be my guest... but I > would personally encourage you to come up with a better argument than > "the option makes me feel better about myself, I don't care what you > have to say, just leave my options alone goshdarnit; I have the right > to be stupid". > > Because I don't think you're likely to convince anyone like that. > Sorry. > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] special small-files USE flag without effect on dependencies: [ unicode ] 2024-02-10 11:22 ` orbea @ 2024-02-11 0:58 ` Eli Schwartz 0 siblings, 0 replies; 26+ messages in thread From: Eli Schwartz @ 2024-02-11 0:58 UTC (permalink / raw) To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1.1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1411 bytes --] On 2/10/24 6:22 AM, orbea wrote: > On Fri, 9 Feb 2024 16:56:55 -0500 > Eli Schwartz <eschwartz93@gmail.com> wrote: >> As evidenced by the removal of libressl and eudev, this logic is >> fallacious and wrong and not the way Gentoo is developed. > > Fwiw I still use both and Gentoo removing specifically Libressl has > only been detrimental. There is a huge amount of extra and redundant > maintainer work when all of the fixes have to be applied over and over > again without changes as the main Gentoo repo gets updated. Its > relatively rare that the fixes have to be rebased or changed against > their respective upstream, but rebasing it against Gentoo is an > extremely common and tedious task. > > Your argument is invalid and not appreciated. Sorry, could you clarify what you mean by this? I made a comment about the facts of reality regarding how Gentoo *is* developed. I understand that this has posed challenges to you and makes your work harder. Nonetheless, my statement about facts and realities is true: Gentoo really did remove upstream tree support for both from the ::gentoo tree. What, therefore, is "invalid" about my argument? Are you writing to the mailing list to inform me that my understanding of reality is invalid, and that contrary to my belief, the ::gentoo tree *does* officially support (and package!) libressl and eudev? -- Eli Schwartz [-- Attachment #1.1.2: OpenPGP public key --] [-- Type: application/pgp-keys, Size: 18399 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] special small-files USE flag without effect on dependencies: [ unicode ] 2024-02-09 21:04 ` Eli Schwartz 2024-02-09 21:25 ` Michael Orlitzky @ 2024-02-10 0:04 ` Sam James 2024-02-11 0:42 ` Eli Schwartz 1 sibling, 1 reply; 26+ messages in thread From: Sam James @ 2024-02-10 0:04 UTC (permalink / raw) To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4034 bytes --] Eli Schwartz <eschwartz93@gmail.com> writes: > [[PGP Signed Part:Undecided]] > On 2/9/24 2:57 PM, Michael Orlitzky wrote: >> One example I know off the top of my head is dev-lang/php where >> USE=ipv6 isn't entirely about ipv6 connectivity (although it does do >> that). It also augments some of the user-facing PHP language functions >> with ipv6 support. Having them enabled is not a big deal, and PHP is a >> programming language so you may say that it's atypical, but... for a >> package that gets a new CVE every week and sits on the public web, I'd >> just rather have it off? > > > Counterpoint: some PHP program out there is probably vulnerable because > it tried to validate an ipv6 address and could not distinguish between > "it's okay" and "idk if it's okay, the function you called does not > exist" (because php is really that terrible of a language). > I was going to make this point as well but I didn't want to go down that route as I figured it'd come across like I'm questioning Michael, as oppossed to trying to make a point about using an option simply because it exists. i.e. Disabling an option isn't always as simple as it sounds (see below). But I'm also not personally wanting to debate that PHP should remove it, just saying that this sort of consideration should be made and it's part of why a USE flag for everything is not always great. We *HAVE* had real problems like this before, see also USE=threads (check out commit bd4d42f83c774c36bf879a5b7ec89d373546743e). > [...] >> I really don't want to fall into a trap where I make up reasons why >> other people might want to do things and everyone says my reasons are >> stupid. Everyone is going to have different reasons, and we have a lot >> of users who are our users because they're edge cases. >> >> It's not unfathomably stupid to build a package without ipv6 or unicode >> support (whatever that means), and there are no small files to worry >> about, so I don't think they deserve the special negative treatment. > > > Maintainability matters too. So does user experience in the other > direction: too many USE flags will lead users to confusion if they don't > understand what all those flags do, and accidentally choose the wrong > answer. also whether the flag then gets tinderboxed, reverse dependencies having to depend on the right flags, debugging user issues which may not be obvious (especially if they surface in another application/interface) because of it... (It's also worth us having the discussion about whether a flag existing means a tinderbox should try it, e.g. USE=debug which IMO isn't suitable for this at all (see also its description) and the kernel stuff like for secureboot.) > > That's not necessarily a reason to remove choice, so much as it is a > reason to... carefully document what that choice actually gets you. > > $ equery -N uses sbcl | grep unicode > + + unicode : Add support for Unicode > > > This is... vague. Good to know that it is enabled by default, but... > what? What does it do? There is no description in metadata.xml, either. > > I think it is fair and reasonable for people to ask people's reasons are > for doing something when it is not actually obvious what the point is. > And when a USE flag selects or deselects dependencies, it is very easy > to know, what exactly "the point" is. > > Often, USE flags have an obvious point even without selecting or > deselecting dependencies -- usually because their maintainers took care > in describing it in metadata.xml. > To pick up on this point: yes, if one concludes the USE flag has merit and the global description is either poor or has some reason to be considered spurious in the case of the package, you should consider documenting it to avoid this question. Adding a suppression like https://github.com/pkgcore/pkgcheck/issues/478 proposes should really be accompanied by such an improvement anyway for the benefit of users. [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 377 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] special small-files USE flag without effect on dependencies: [ unicode ] 2024-02-10 0:04 ` Sam James @ 2024-02-11 0:42 ` Eli Schwartz 2024-02-11 3:46 ` Sam James 0 siblings, 1 reply; 26+ messages in thread From: Eli Schwartz @ 2024-02-11 0:42 UTC (permalink / raw) To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1.1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1069 bytes --] On 2/9/24 7:04 PM, Sam James wrote: > > Eli Schwartz <eschwartz93@gmail.com> writes: >> Often, USE flags have an obvious point even without selecting or >> deselecting dependencies -- usually because their maintainers took care >> in describing it in metadata.xml. >> > > To pick up on this point: yes, if one concludes the USE flag has merit > and the global description is either poor or has some reason to be > considered spurious in the case of the package, you should consider > documenting it to avoid this question. > > Adding a suppression like https://github.com/pkgcore/pkgcheck/issues/478 > proposes should really be accompanied by such an improvement anyway for > the benefit of users. I'd like to request in the event that this pkgcheck ticket is implemented, that including a description in metadata.xml which provides additional package specific information (or, programmatically, "is non-empty and un-equal to the global description") is made mandatory for the purposes of silencing this warning... :) -- Eli Schwartz [-- Attachment #1.1.2: OpenPGP public key --] [-- Type: application/pgp-keys, Size: 18399 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] special small-files USE flag without effect on dependencies: [ unicode ] 2024-02-11 0:42 ` Eli Schwartz @ 2024-02-11 3:46 ` Sam James 2024-02-11 3:56 ` Eli Schwartz 2024-02-12 4:54 ` Andrey Grozin 0 siblings, 2 replies; 26+ messages in thread From: Sam James @ 2024-02-11 3:46 UTC (permalink / raw) To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1570 bytes --] Eli Schwartz <eschwartz93@gmail.com> writes: > [[PGP Signed Part:Undecided]] > On 2/9/24 7:04 PM, Sam James wrote: >> >> Eli Schwartz <eschwartz93@gmail.com> writes: >>> Often, USE flags have an obvious point even without selecting or >>> deselecting dependencies -- usually because their maintainers took care >>> in describing it in metadata.xml. >>> >> >> To pick up on this point: yes, if one concludes the USE flag has merit >> and the global description is either poor or has some reason to be >> considered spurious in the case of the package, you should consider >> documenting it to avoid this question. >> >> Adding a suppression like https://github.com/pkgcore/pkgcheck/issues/478 >> proposes should really be accompanied by such an improvement anyway for >> the benefit of users. > > > I'd like to request in the event that this pkgcheck ticket is > implemented, that including a description in metadata.xml which provides > additional package specific information (or, programmatically, "is > non-empty and un-equal to the global description") is made mandatory for > the purposes of silencing this warning... :) parona ended up messaging me and pointing out that https://pkgcore.github.io/pkgcheck/man/pkgcheck.html#useflagwithoutdeps already says... > In cases where this USE flag is appropriate, you can silence this > warning by adding a description to this USE flag in metadata.xml file > and thus making it a local USE flag instead of global one. which I think pretty much solves the full thing already... [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 377 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] special small-files USE flag without effect on dependencies: [ unicode ] 2024-02-11 3:46 ` Sam James @ 2024-02-11 3:56 ` Eli Schwartz 2024-02-12 4:54 ` Andrey Grozin 1 sibling, 0 replies; 26+ messages in thread From: Eli Schwartz @ 2024-02-11 3:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1.1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 697 bytes --] On 2/10/24 10:46 PM, Sam James wrote: > parona ended up messaging me and pointing out that > https://pkgcore.github.io/pkgcheck/man/pkgcheck.html#useflagwithoutdeps > already says... > >> In cases where this USE flag is appropriate, you can silence this >> warning by adding a description to this USE flag in metadata.xml file >> and thus making it a local USE flag instead of global one. > > which I think pretty much solves the full thing already... I was kind of hoping (in lieu of reading man pages) that someone would try it simply because it's the right thing to do and then get a happy surprise upon seeing that pkgcheck had excellent forethought. -- Eli Schwartz [-- Attachment #1.1.2: OpenPGP public key --] [-- Type: application/pgp-keys, Size: 18399 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] special small-files USE flag without effect on dependencies: [ unicode ] 2024-02-11 3:46 ` Sam James 2024-02-11 3:56 ` Eli Schwartz @ 2024-02-12 4:54 ` Andrey Grozin 1 sibling, 0 replies; 26+ messages in thread From: Andrey Grozin @ 2024-02-12 4:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: gentoo-dev On Sun, 11 Feb 2024, Sam James wrote: > parona ended up messaging me and pointing out that > https://pkgcore.github.io/pkgcheck/man/pkgcheck.html#useflagwithoutdeps > already says... > >> In cases where this USE flag is appropriate, you can silence this >> warning by adding a description to this USE flag in metadata.xml file >> and thus making it a local USE flag instead of global one. Thank you very much! Done. The problem solved. Andrey ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] special small-files USE flag without effect on dependencies: [ unicode ] 2024-02-09 19:57 ` Michael Orlitzky 2024-02-09 21:04 ` Eli Schwartz @ 2024-02-10 0:00 ` Sam James 1 sibling, 0 replies; 26+ messages in thread From: Sam James @ 2024-02-10 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2402 bytes --] Michael Orlitzky <mjo@gentoo.org> writes: > On Fri, 2024-02-09 at 14:09 -0500, Eli Schwartz wrote: >> >> Asking out of genuine ignorance: what kind of direct behavioral changes >> occur as a result of setting or unsetting USE=ipv6. > > One example I know off the top of my head is dev-lang/php where > USE=ipv6 isn't entirely about ipv6 connectivity (although it does do > that). It also augments some of the user-facing PHP language functions > with ipv6 support. Having them enabled is not a big deal, and PHP is a > programming language so you may say that it's atypical, but... for a > package that gets a new CVE every week and sits on the public web, I'd > just rather have it off? A few years ago when this last came up, I ended up digging into a bunch of USE=ipv6 providers and found that USE=-ipv6 either didn't build, took a less supported (non-default-upstream) codepath which looked bitrotten, only toggled default configuration (sometimes via the build system). I also found several cases where it ended up taking a legacy code path while the USE=ipv6 one used modern networking functions which happened to then support IPv6. For a case like the latter one (and the rest I mention, really), disabilng kernel support is more appropriate. But read on wrt PHP. > > Unicode support is similar in my mind. Adding "unicode support" to a > package might be easy (at the cost of some extra memory), but dealing > with the consequences of unicode is harder. Maybe I don't want to worry > about homoglyphs and bidirectional text when I'm validating a hostname? > Life is just simpler without it, if you know you don't need it. Things > also tend to be more space and memory efficient with features compiled > out; not to mention that the compile times themselves are improved. > You're still pulling in "extra dependencies," in a sense, even if > they're in the same tarball. I think what you really want is https://github.com/pkgcore/pkgcheck/issues/478 because you've made the case as its maintainer for the flags to exist. The discussion really ends there in such a case given you're considered the matter and decided it has value in PHP. The issue is therefore just having a suppression for pkgcheck. The pkgcheck rule was intended as a hint that something might be suspicious, rather than indicating it must be removed. thanks, sam [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 377 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] special small-files USE flag without effect on dependencies: [ unicode ] 2024-02-09 15:23 [gentoo-dev] special small-files USE flag without effect on dependencies: [ unicode ] Andrey Grozin 2024-02-09 15:43 ` Mike Gilbert 2024-02-09 15:54 ` Ionen Wolkens @ 2024-02-09 23:52 ` Sam James 2 siblings, 0 replies; 26+ messages in thread From: Sam James @ 2024-02-09 23:52 UTC (permalink / raw) To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1386 bytes --] Andrey Grozin <grozin@woodpecker.gentoo.org> writes: > Hello *, > > pkgcheck complains about each new version of dev-lisp/sbcl: > > UseFlagWithoutDeps: version 2.4.1: special small-files USE flag > without effect on dependencies: [ unicode ] > > The USE flag "unicode" in the sbcl ebuild has nothing to do with > installing / not installing any files, small or otherwise. It > determins whether the produced lisp will support unicode internally: > > sbcl_feature "$(usep unicode)" ":sb-unicode" > > Usually this is desirable, so, in USE we have +unicode. > If you can't think of a someone to not want it, you should just enable it. Common reasons to not want it are substantial impact on build-time, additional dependencies, unsupported or poorly supported upstream, experimental status, and so on. Most of the time, one of these applies for these flags, and it's therefore useless. Hence https://github.com/pkgcore/pkgcheck/issues/414. Note further that USE=unicode is forced on for many packages in profiles and historically it ended up changing ABI for a bunch of them. If you conclude that there is a valid reason to toggle it, then the next part becomes relevant: > Is there a way to silence these warnings? There are real times when we may want to suppress the warning/notices. This is tracked as https://github.com/pkgcore/pkgcheck/issues/478 for pkgcheck. thanks, sam [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 377 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 26+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2024-02-12 4:55 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 26+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2024-02-09 15:23 [gentoo-dev] special small-files USE flag without effect on dependencies: [ unicode ] Andrey Grozin 2024-02-09 15:43 ` Mike Gilbert 2024-02-09 15:54 ` Ionen Wolkens 2024-02-09 16:07 ` Michael Orlitzky 2024-02-09 16:57 ` Mike Gilbert 2024-02-09 17:17 ` Michael Orlitzky 2024-02-09 18:40 ` Mike Gilbert 2024-02-09 19:09 ` Eli Schwartz 2024-02-09 19:57 ` Michael Orlitzky 2024-02-09 21:04 ` Eli Schwartz 2024-02-09 21:25 ` Michael Orlitzky 2024-02-09 21:56 ` Eli Schwartz 2024-02-09 22:56 ` stefan11111 2024-02-10 0:03 ` Matt Jolly 2024-02-10 11:48 ` David Seifert 2024-02-10 17:26 ` stefan11111 2024-02-11 0:58 ` Eli Schwartz 2024-02-10 11:22 ` orbea 2024-02-11 0:58 ` Eli Schwartz 2024-02-10 0:04 ` Sam James 2024-02-11 0:42 ` Eli Schwartz 2024-02-11 3:46 ` Sam James 2024-02-11 3:56 ` Eli Schwartz 2024-02-12 4:54 ` Andrey Grozin 2024-02-10 0:00 ` Sam James 2024-02-09 23:52 ` Sam James
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