[gentoo-desktop] kde-sunset

[gentoo-desktop] kde-sunset

[wabenbau]

Hi folks,

I was a KDE user for many years (starting with KDE version 0.4) but
since KDE4 ousted KDE3 I'm using XFCE. 
Because I wanna have a "tree-mode" in my file manager, I'm using
nautilus instead of thunar. Now Gnome3 is marked stable and it seems
that Gnome2 is not longer supported. I don't like to upgrade my
installed gnome stuff to the new version and therefore I think about
installing the kde-sunset overlay because I always was happy with KDE3.

Before I try to do this, I have some questions.

1. How secure is it to use KDE 3.5 from the kde-sunset overlay? Are
there maybe security leaks that are fixed in KDE4 but not in KDE 3.5?

2. I have some KDE4 programs installed. Do I have to uninstall all KDE4
stuff before I can install KDE 3.5?

3. Are there any other things that I have to take care of before I
install KDE 3.5?

regards

Re: [gentoo-desktop] kde-sunset

[Andreas Sturmlechner]

---Original Message---
From: wabenbau@gmail.com
> Hi folks,
> 
> I was a KDE user for many years (starting with KDE version 0.4) but
> since KDE4 ousted KDE3 I'm using XFCE. 
[CUT] 
> Before I try to do this, I have some questions.
> 
> 1. How secure is it to use KDE 3.5 from the kde-sunset overlay? Are
> there maybe security leaks that are fixed in KDE4 but not in KDE 3.5?
>

KDE 3.5 in general and kde-sunset as well is horribly outdated and broken. 
There is no rational reason to not use KDE4 these days. plasma-workspaces-4.11 
enjoys long term support and is exactly what you are looking for. It doesn't 
look or behave much different than 3.5 anyway. Verdict: Don't make yourself 
unhappy.

Re: [gentoo-desktop] kde-sunset

[Serghei Amelian]

On Thursday 05 December 2013 19:09:17 Andreas Sturmlechner wrote:

[...]

> KDE 3.5 in general and kde-sunset as well is horribly outdated and broken.
> There is no rational reason to not use KDE4 these days.
> plasma-workspaces-4.11 enjoys long term support and is exactly what you are
> looking for. It doesn't look or behave much different than 3.5 anyway.
> Verdict: Don't make yourself unhappy.

Well, I'm a happy KDE 3.5 user :) KDE4 still just sux, bloated and 
uncomfortable.

-- 
Serghei

Re: [gentoo-desktop] kde-sunset

[Brent Busby]

On Thu, 5 Dec 2013, Serghei Amelian wrote:

> On Thursday 05 December 2013 19:09:17 Andreas Sturmlechner wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> KDE 3.5 in general and kde-sunset as well is horribly outdated and 
>> broken. There is no rational reason to not use KDE4 these days. 
>> plasma-workspaces-4.11 enjoys long term support and is exactly what 
>> you are looking for. It doesn't look or behave much different than 
>> 3.5 anyway. Verdict: Don't make yourself unhappy.
>
> Well, I'm a happy KDE 3.5 user :) KDE4 still just sux, bloated and
> uncomfortable.

I'm one of those odd birds that actually enjoys the look and feel of 
traditional UNIX desktops (CDE/Motif/OpenLook/Athena/etc.).  Most people 
cringe at it, I know, but I like it and won't accept anything else.

On KDE 3, it was possible to setup an extremely convincing and 
attractive (to people like me) imitation of CDE.  Attempting to do this 
on KDE 4 falls far short.

-- 
+ Brent A. Busby	 + "We've all heard that a million monkeys
+ Sr. UNIX Systems Admin +  banging on a million typewriters will
+ University of Chicago	 +  eventually reproduce the entire works of
+ James Franck Institute +  Shakespeare.  Now, thanks to the Internet,
+ Materials Research Ctr +  we know this is not true." -Robert Wilensky

Re: [gentoo-desktop] kde-sunset

[wabenbau]

Am Donnerstag, 05.12.2013 um 16:52
schrieb Brent Busby <brent@keycorner.org>:

> On Thu, 5 Dec 2013, Serghei Amelian wrote:
> 
> > On Thursday 05 December 2013 19:09:17 Andreas Sturmlechner wrote:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> >> KDE 3.5 in general and kde-sunset as well is horribly outdated and
> >> >> broken. There is no rational reason to not use KDE4 these days.
> >> >> >> plasma-workspaces-4.11 enjoys long term support and is
> >> >> >> exactly what >> you are looking for. It doesn't look or
> >> >> >> behave much different than >> 3.5 anyway. Verdict: Don't
> >> >> >> make yourself unhappy.
> >
> > Well, I'm a happy KDE 3.5 user :) KDE4 still just sux, bloated and
> > uncomfortable.
> 
> I'm one of those odd birds that actually enjoys the look and feel of
> traditional UNIX desktops (CDE/Motif/OpenLook/Athena/etc.).  Most
> people cringe at it, I know, but I like it and won't accept anything
> else.
> 
> On KDE 3, it was possible to setup an extremely convincing and
> attractive (to people like me) imitation of CDE.  Attempting to do
> this on KDE 4 falls far short.
> 

I made a CDE theme for icewm many years ago and was very happy with it.

Regards

Re: [gentoo-desktop] kde-sunset

[wabenbau]

Am Donnerstag, 05.12.2013 um 18:09
schrieb Andreas Sturmlechner <andreas.sturmlechner@gmail.com>:

> ---Original Message---
> From: wabenbau@gmail.com
> > Hi folks,
> > 
> > I was a KDE user for many years (starting with KDE version 0.4) but
> > since KDE4 ousted KDE3 I'm using XFCE. 
> [CUT] 
> > Before I try to do this, I have some questions.
> > 
> > 1. How secure is it to use KDE 3.5 from the kde-sunset overlay? Are
> > there maybe security leaks that are fixed in KDE4 but not in KDE
> > 3.5?
> >
> 
> KDE 3.5 in general and kde-sunset as well is horribly outdated and
> broken. There is no rational reason to not use KDE4 these days.
> plasma-workspaces-4.11 enjoys long term support and is exactly what
> you are looking for. It doesn't look or behave much different than
> 3.5 anyway. Verdict: Don't make yourself unhappy.

Ok. THX for the information.
Maybe I give KDE4 a second chance. All I wanna use is konqueror and
some utilities. I've tried konqueror4 some years ago and it was
horrible. I hope it's better now.

Regards

Re: [gentoo-desktop] kde-sunset

[Dominique Michel]

Le Sat, 14 Dec 2013 01:16:25 +0100,
<wabenbau@gmail.com> a écrit :

> Am Donnerstag, 05.12.2013 um 18:09
> schrieb Andreas Sturmlechner <andreas.sturmlechner@gmail.com>:
> 
> > ---Original Message---
> > From: wabenbau@gmail.com
> > > Hi folks,
> > > 
> > > I was a KDE user for many years (starting with KDE version 0.4)
> > > but since KDE4 ousted KDE3 I'm using XFCE. 

Fvwm-crystal here from many years ago. Its application menu have full
support for the additional free desktop categories out of the box,
which make it the most maintenance free apps menu of all desktops.

Recent versions include a native support with nice 2 pictures icons for
the xdg-user-directories with any file manager you can think about,
inclusive console stuffs like mc (2 simultaneously with left and
middle click, + contextual menu on right click).

It is funny, fast, stable and don't bloat your system. Its memory
usage depend mostly on the modules in use into a recipe
(theme), more modules imply more memory, but the speed remain the same,
only the start time is different from one recipe to another.

> > [CUT] 
> > > Before I try to do this, I have some questions.
> > > 
> > > 1. How secure is it to use KDE 3.5 from the kde-sunset overlay?
> > > Are there maybe security leaks that are fixed in KDE4 but not in
> > > KDE 3.5?

Fvwm-crystal provide only a desktop and don't bloat in any way with the
system. It will be as secure than your system , your preferred file
managers, browsers, and other softwares are, not more, but not less.

A new version is in preparation for the end of the year or something
like that. It will add a new function (random loop wallpaper) and
contain a major and a few minor bug fixes.

Dominique

Re: [gentoo-desktop] kde-sunset

[Dominique Michel]

Le Sat, 14 Dec 2013 11:33:30 +0100,
Dominique Michel <dominique.michel@vtxnet.ch> a écrit :

> Le Sat, 14 Dec 2013 01:16:25 +0100,
> <wabenbau@gmail.com> a écrit :
> 
> > Am Donnerstag, 05.12.2013 um 18:09
> > schrieb Andreas Sturmlechner <andreas.sturmlechner@gmail.com>:
> > 
> > > ---Original Message---
> > > From: wabenbau@gmail.com
> > > > Hi folks,
> > > > 
> > > > I was a KDE user for many years (starting with KDE version 0.4)
> > > > but since KDE4 ousted KDE3 I'm using XFCE. 
> 
> Fvwm-crystal here from many years ago. Its application menu have full
> support for the additional free desktop categories out of the box,
> which make it the most maintenance free apps menu of all desktops.
> 
> Recent versions include a native support with nice 2 pictures icons
> for the xdg-user-directories with any file manager you can think
> about, inclusive console stuffs like mc (2 simultaneously with left
> and middle click, + contextual menu on right click).
> 
> It is funny, fast, stable and don't bloat your system. Its memory
> usage depend mostly on the modules in use into a recipe
> (theme), more modules imply more memory, but the speed remain the
> same, only the start time is different from one recipe to another.
> 
> > > [CUT] 
> > > > Before I try to do this, I have some questions.
> > > > 
> > > > 1. How secure is it to use KDE 3.5 from the kde-sunset overlay?
> > > > Are there maybe security leaks that are fixed in KDE4 but not in
> > > > KDE 3.5?
> 
> Fvwm-crystal provide only a desktop and don't bloat in any way with
> the system. It will be as secure than your system , your preferred
> file managers, browsers, and other softwares are, not more, but not
> less.
> 
> A new version is in preparation for the end of the year or something
> like that. It will add a new function (random loop wallpaper) and
> contain a major and a few minor bug fixes.

And an editor for the few preferences which are not included directly
into its main menu.

> 
> Dominique
> 

Re: [gentoo-desktop] kde-sunset

[Philip Webb]

131205 wabenbau@gmail.com wrote:
> I was a KDE user for many years (starting with KDE version 0.4)
> but since KDE4 ousted KDE3 I'm using XFCE.

I recommend Fluxbox for those wanting a simple life.

> Because I wanna have a "tree-mode" in my file manager,
> I'm using nautilus instead of thunar.

Try Krusader : you can get a tree via the pop-up window.
Krusader is a very powerful file manager.

> I think about installing the kde-sunset overlay
> because I always was happy with KDE3.
> 1. How secure is it to use KDE 3.5 from the kde-sunset overlay?
> Are there maybe security leaks that are fixed in KDE4 but not in KDE 3.5?

I believe they try to fix serious security holes :
it depends on what you plan to do.

> 2. I have some KDE4 programs installed.
> Do I have to uninstall all KDE4 stuff before I can install KDE 3.5?

No : I have KDE Sunset installed for  3  small games
-- Kmahjongg Ksokoban Kworldclock -- , but use KDE 4 for many other apps.

> 3. Are there any other things that I have to take care of
> before I install KDE 3.5?

You need to check the dox re how to install + manage overlays.

-- 
========================,,============================================
SUPPORT     ___________//___,   Philip Webb
ELECTRIC   /] [] [] [] [] []|   Cities Centre, University of Toronto
TRANSIT    `-O----------O---'   purslowatchassdotutorontodotca

Re: [gentoo-desktop] kde-sunset

[wabenbau]

Am Donnerstag, 05.12.2013 um 13:22
schrieb Philip Webb <purslow@ca.inter.net>:

> 131205 wabenbau@gmail.com wrote:
> > I was a KDE user for many years (starting with KDE version 0.4)
> > but since KDE4 ousted KDE3 I'm using XFCE.
> 
> I recommend Fluxbox for those wanting a simple life.

In the beginnning of my "linux life" I first use xfwm, then I used
sawfish, then windowmaker and finally icewm. But later, with the help of
kde, I become a very lazy user and I like it when I can easy add menus
and buttons and other stuff to my taskbar or change the style of my
desktop without the need to edit configuration files. That's the reason
why I'm using xfce now. It's easy to configure and it's not bloated with
stuff, that I don't need. 

I don't know much about fluxbox. Is it easy to customize?
 
> > Because I wanna have a "tree-mode" in my file manager,
> > I'm using nautilus instead of thunar.
> 
> Try Krusader : you can get a tree via the pop-up window.
> Krusader is a very powerful file manager.

Thanks for the tip. I've installed it and played with for a while and it
really seems to be very powerful. But besides the fact that I don't
like dual window file managers very much, it doesn't have the kind of
tree mode that I want. It just displays the directory structure as a
tree, but without regular files. Or at least I haven't found an option
for that. Could it be that I have overseen something?

> > I think about installing the kde-sunset overlay
> > because I always was happy with KDE3.
> > 1. How secure is it to use KDE 3.5 from the kde-sunset overlay?
> > Are there maybe security leaks that are fixed in KDE4 but not in
> > KDE 3.5?
> 
> I believe they try to fix serious security holes :
> it depends on what you plan to do.

I think, I will stick with xfce as desktop/window manager. All I wanna
use from KDE is konqueror, kate, kruler, kcalc, kcharselect and maybe
some other little tools. 
But the internet functionality of konqueror (sftp) is also important
for me. If there are security flaws in konqueror regarding remote
connections then this would be a problem.

> > 2. I have some KDE4 programs installed.
> > Do I have to uninstall all KDE4 stuff before I can install KDE 3.5?
> 
> No : I have KDE Sunset installed for  3  small games
> -- Kmahjongg Ksokoban Kworldclock -- , but use KDE 4 for many other
> apps.

Ok, thats good to know.
 
> > 3. Are there any other things that I have to take care of
> > before I install KDE 3.5?
> 
> You need to check the dox re how to install + manage overlays.
 
Ok. Of course I will do this if I should try out KDE3. But after all
the information I got from this list, I really have to think about
other options. First I should test konqueror4 again. Maybe it is better
now. If this isn't the case, I will try gnome3. If this also sucks,
well then I will quit computing. ;-)

Regards

Re: [gentoo-desktop] kde-sunset

[Keiji Costantini]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1938 bytes --]

2013/12/5 <wabenbau@gmail.com>

> Hi folks,
>
> I was a KDE user for many years (starting with KDE version 0.4) but
> since KDE4 ousted KDE3 I'm using XFCE.
> Because I wanna have a "tree-mode" in my file manager, I'm using
> nautilus instead of thunar. Now Gnome3 is marked stable and it seems
> that Gnome2 is not longer supported. I don't like to upgrade my
> installed gnome stuff to the new version and therefore I think about
> installing the kde-sunset overlay because I always was happy with KDE3.
>

I have a living Kde3.5 on my notebook and Kde4.10 on my desktop. No
question: Kde4 was a downgrade. Konqueror3 kicks ass on the castrated
Konqueror4. Dolphin doesn't have half of the usability of Konqueror as a
filemanager (I swear I tried to use it and had to switch to konqueror4)

>
> Before I try to do this, I have some questions.
>
> 1. How secure is it to use KDE 3.5 from the kde-sunset overlay? Are
> there maybe security leaks that are fixed in KDE4 but not in KDE 3.5?
>

For this probably there is no answer: kde3 was killed and almost all
development ceased with the introduction of kde4. And so the bug huntings
and the like.


>
> 2. I have some KDE4 programs installed. Do I have to uninstall all KDE4
> stuff before I can install KDE 3.5?
>
> No, they can go fine, but you may get a path problem since programs that
have the same name in kde3 or 4 will not play so nice (especially if you
need the "wrong" one).


> 3. Are there any other things that I have to take care of before I
> install KDE 3.5?
>

KDE 3.5 is built for HAL, which gentoo got rid of. So basically you will
not get mounting and unmounting of devices at DE level (I use bashmount for
that). Battery monitoring seems to work (but I don't remember exactly HOW
and WHY)
You will need to tweak xdm to have kdm3 working.
there are some distfiles that went rogue, you may have to search for them
on google and procure externally".

>
> regards
>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2954 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-desktop] kde-sunset

[Serghei Amelian]

On Thursday 05 December 2013 22:52:26 Keiji Costantini wrote:
> 2013/12/5 <wabenbau@gmail.com>

> > 3. Are there any other things that I have to take care of before I
> > install KDE 3.5?
>
> KDE 3.5 is built for HAL, which gentoo got rid of. So basically you will
> not get mounting and unmounting of devices at DE level (I use bashmount for
> that). Battery monitoring seems to work (but I don't remember exactly HOW
> and WHY)

Sometime ago I created an udisks2 backend and a polkit client, but it needs 
some effort to integrate they into kde-sunset (i'm not longer active 
kde3-sunset maintainer, as I switched to Fedora). If someone is interested, 
all sources are here: https://github.com/serghei?tab=repositories

udisks2 backend and some other things related to upower are already integrated 
into OpenSuse's KDE3. http://lizards.opensuse.org/author/ansus/

Unfortunately currently my time is very limited, but when it is possibile I'm 
still trying to keep the KDE3 alive.

> You will need to tweak xdm to have kdm3 working.
> there are some distfiles that went rogue, you may have to search for them
> on google and procure externally".
>
> > regards



-- 
Serghei

Re: [gentoo-desktop] kde-sunset

[wabenbau]

Am Donnerstag, 05.12.2013 um 21:52
schrieb Keiji Costantini <strites@gmail.com>:

> 2013/12/5 <wabenbau@gmail.com>
> 
> > Hi folks,
> >
> > I was a KDE user for many years (starting with KDE version 0.4) but
> > since KDE4 ousted KDE3 I'm using XFCE.
> > Because I wanna have a "tree-mode" in my file manager, I'm using
> > nautilus instead of thunar. Now Gnome3 is marked stable and it seems
> > that Gnome2 is not longer supported. I don't like to upgrade my
> > installed gnome stuff to the new version and therefore I think about
> > installing the kde-sunset overlay because I always was happy with
> > KDE3.
> >
> 
> I have a living Kde3.5 on my notebook and Kde4.10 on my desktop. No
> question: Kde4 was a downgrade. Konqueror3 kicks ass on the castrated
> Konqueror4. Dolphin doesn't have half of the usability of Konqueror
> as a filemanager (I swear I tried to use it and had to switch to
> konqueror4)

That was also my opinion. Konqueror was slow (especially the scrolling)
and lacks many functions. Also the line pitch in the file area was too
big. I can't remember all details but I was really disaffected with it.
And dolphin was even worse.
 
> >
> > Before I try to do this, I have some questions.
> >
> > 1. How secure is it to use KDE 3.5 from the kde-sunset overlay? Are
> > there maybe security leaks that are fixed in KDE4 but not in KDE
> > 3.5?
> >
> 
> For this probably there is no answer: kde3 was killed and almost all
> development ceased with the introduction of kde4. And so the bug
> huntings and the like.

That's what I'm worried about.

> > 2. I have some KDE4 programs installed. Do I have to uninstall all
> > KDE4 stuff before I can install KDE 3.5?
> >
> > No, they can go fine, but you may get a path problem since programs
> > that
> have the same name in kde3 or 4 will not play so nice (especially if
> you need the "wrong" one).

Ok, good to know this.

> > 3. Are there any other things that I have to take care of before I
> > install KDE 3.5?
> >
> 
> KDE 3.5 is built for HAL, which gentoo got rid of. So basically you
> will not get mounting and unmounting of devices at DE level (I use
> bashmount for that). Battery monitoring seems to work (but I don't
> remember exactly HOW and WHY)

I'm used to (u)mount my devices per hand. That's no problem. I also
made some small scripts which I can call with menu and with gkrellm.
As my computer is not a mobile device or laptop, I don't need no battery
monitoring at all.

> You will need to tweak xdm to have kdm3 working.
> there are some distfiles that went rogue, you may have to search for
> them on google and procure externally".

I don't use a display manager. Just startx.
 
Regards

Re: [gentoo-desktop] kde-sunset

[Brent Busby]

On Thu, 5 Dec 2013, wabenbau@gmail.com wrote:

> 1. How secure is it to use KDE 3.5 from the kde-sunset overlay? Are 
> there maybe security leaks that are fixed in KDE4 but not in KDE 3.5?

Definitely.  You definitely should not use Internet clients from KDE 3, 
and you shouldn't let local users have shells if you're afraid they 
could exploit your desktop components.  (Then again, you shouldn't 
probably give shells to people you don't trust anyway.)

It's probably safe to use KDE 3 as a desktop so long as you keep in mind 
the Internet stuff is full of holes.

> 2. I have some KDE4 programs installed. Do I have to uninstall all 
> KDE4 stuff before I can install KDE 3.5?

Probably not.  I've installed some KDE 4 programs as well.  Install as 
little of KDE 4 as you can though to avoid problems, especially before 
you've installed kde-sunset.  After it's all setup and working, you're 
much safer adding KDE 4 programs then.

> 3. Are there any other things that I have to take care of before I 
> install KDE 3.5?

Just be ready for lots of problems.  The overlay has lots of issues that 
don't affect people who already have it setup and working, but can cause 
issues with fresh attempts at install.  I've also found that some of the 
patches people have submitted to fix problems have never found their way 
into the overlay.  I'm guilty myself of having fixed many problems and 
then forgetting what I did later because I've got it installed ok on my 
own systems.  Once you get it on though, it works.

(Here's a hint...don't uninstall Python 2.6...or if you don't have it, 
install it.  It's still supported in mainstream Gentoo.)

-- 
+ Brent A. Busby	 + "We've all heard that a million monkeys
+ Sr. UNIX Systems Admin +  banging on a million typewriters will
+ University of Chicago	 +  eventually reproduce the entire works of
+ James Franck Institute +  Shakespeare.  Now, thanks to the Internet,
+ Materials Research Ctr +  we know this is not true." -Robert Wilensky

Re: [gentoo-desktop] kde-sunset

[wabenbau]

Am Donnerstag, 05.12.2013 um 16:49
schrieb Brent Busby <brent@keycorner.org>:

> On Thu, 5 Dec 2013, wabenbau@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> > 1. How secure is it to use KDE 3.5 from the kde-sunset overlay? Are
> > > there maybe security leaks that are fixed in KDE4 but not in KDE
> > > 3.5?
> 
> Definitely.  You definitely should not use Internet clients from KDE
> 3, and you shouldn't let local users have shells if you're afraid
> they could exploit your desktop components.  (Then again, you
> shouldn't probably give shells to people you don't trust anyway.)
> 
> It's probably safe to use KDE 3 as a desktop so long as you keep in
> mind the Internet stuff is full of holes.

I'm the only user on my computer. But security holes in the internet
functionality are really a big problem for me.

> > 3. Are there any other things that I have to take care of before I
> > > install KDE 3.5?
> 
> Just be ready for lots of problems.  The overlay has lots of issues
> that don't affect people who already have it setup and working, but
> can cause issues with fresh attempts at install.  I've also found
> that some of the patches people have submitted to fix problems have
> never found their way into the overlay.  I'm guilty myself of having
> fixed many problems and then forgetting what I did later because I've
> got it installed ok on my own systems.  Once you get it on though, it
> works.

Sounds like trouble. I already have enough trouble and don't need even
more. ;-)
 
> (Here's a hint...don't uninstall Python 2.6...or if you don't have
> it, install it.  It's still supported in mainstream Gentoo.)
 
But whats in a few months when support for Phyton 2.6 will be
dropped? Ok, maybe then it will be available as an overlay (and after
some time maybe also with security holes included).

Maybe it is no good idea to use an old and unmaintained piece of
software. It seems that the good old days of happy kde computing are
over.

Regards