[gentoo-desktop] [RFC] Splitting desktop profile to KDE and GNOME

[gentoo-desktop] [RFC] Splitting desktop profile to KDE and GNOME

[Maciej Mrozowski]

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Hi there!

Resulting from discussion during last Gentoo KDE team meeting taking place 22 
Oct 2009 at #gentoo-meetings (summary fill be available soon), having Gentoo 
GNOME team representative, it's been decided to go ahead with splitting 
desktop profile to DE-specific subprofiles, to avoid bloat and provide desktop 
specific separation which should result in desktop subprofiles being actually 
practical.
It's been proposed to:

- keep 'desktop' profile but strip it from any desktop specific features and 
settings, making it default recommended choice for anyone using non-KDE and 
non-GNOME desktop environment, yet avoiding USE flags bloat. Any other DE is 
free to join and create own DE-specific subprofile if needed.

- create 'KDE' (or 'kde') and 'GNOME' (or 'gnome') subprofiles within 
'desktop' profile and move any desktop specific things there. This should in 
theory allow us to not add 'recommended' IUSE defaults to desktop specific 
packages, but keep those settings in profile - making profile effectively 'out 
of the box' solution for those who need it.

If you have any comments, suggestions, important notices regarding this 
change, please keep discussion in gentoo-desktop mailing list.

Thanks

-- 
regards
MM

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[gentoo-desktop] Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Splitting desktop profile to KDE and GNOME

[Maciej Mrozowski]

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On Saturday 24 of October 2009 16:00:03 Jeremy Olexa wrote:

> Just so it is clear and there aren't any questions in the future. The
> XFCE team maintains a set of recommended global use flags in our docs[1]
> (maintained by Josh (nightmorph)). So, whatever direction this ends up,
> xfce will not be going down that same road.

Well, if XFCE 'satisfying use deps' USE flags are not excessive, I think they 
could stay in desktop (parent) profile of course as desktop profile is meant 
for general use desktop. This would address some parts of Nirbheek's concern.

> Additionally, One cool thing about Gentoo is that you *can* have more
> than one DE installed. We don't have things like KGentoo =P I hope this
> profile thing doesn't make it harder for end users to use GNOME and KDE
> at the same time.

That's the 'edge' case we encounter. Of course splitting desktop profile 
*will* make it harder for them to have GNOME and KDE at the same time. But, to 
be clear, we're talking here mainly about default USE flags (not gnome-base/* 
entries in package.mask in KDE subprofile... hmm, jmbsvicetto? worth 
considering... ;) )
Splitting profiles is to provide out of the box desktop specific solutions 
(because that's what majority uses afaik, though I don't have any poll to back 
my words), not to prevent anyone from mixing things - those may just need the 
same package.use/make.conf effort to set it up (mainly to satisfy USE deps, as 
one can put recommended USE flags in +EAPI-1 IUSE in desktop environment 
ebuilds after all).

-- 
regards
MM

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Re: [gentoo-desktop] [RFC] Splitting desktop profile to KDE and GNOME

[Dale]

Maciej Mrozowski wrote:
> Hi there!
>
> Resulting from discussion during last Gentoo KDE team meeting taking place 22 
> Oct 2009 at #gentoo-meetings (summary fill be available soon), having Gentoo 
> GNOME team representative, it's been decided to go ahead with splitting 
> desktop profile to DE-specific subprofiles, to avoid bloat and provide desktop 
> specific separation which should result in desktop subprofiles being actually 
> practical.
> It's been proposed to:
>
> - keep 'desktop' profile but strip it from any desktop specific features and 
> settings, making it default recommended choice for anyone using non-KDE and 
> non-GNOME desktop environment, yet avoiding USE flags bloat. Any other DE is 
> free to join and create own DE-specific subprofile if needed.
>
> - create 'KDE' (or 'kde') and 'GNOME' (or 'gnome') subprofiles within 
> 'desktop' profile and move any desktop specific things there. This should in 
> theory allow us to not add 'recommended' IUSE defaults to desktop specific 
> packages, but keep those settings in profile - making profile effectively 'out 
> of the box' solution for those who need it.
>
> If you have any comments, suggestions, important notices regarding this 
> change, please keep discussion in gentoo-desktop mailing list.
>
> Thanks
>
>   

I personally like this idea.  At one time I used a bare profile and a
huge USE line to keep unneeded things out.  This would be a really nice
solution. 

You got my vote on this one.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

[gentoo-desktop] Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Splitting desktop profile to KDE and GNOME

[AllenJB]

Maciej Mrozowski wrote:
> Hi there!
> 
> Resulting from discussion during last Gentoo KDE team meeting taking place 22 
> Oct 2009 at #gentoo-meetings (summary fill be available soon), having Gentoo 
> GNOME team representative, it's been decided to go ahead with splitting 
> desktop profile to DE-specific subprofiles, to avoid bloat and provide desktop 
> specific separation which should result in desktop subprofiles being actually 
> practical.
> It's been proposed to:
> 
> - keep 'desktop' profile but strip it from any desktop specific features and 
> settings, making it default recommended choice for anyone using non-KDE and 
> non-GNOME desktop environment, yet avoiding USE flags bloat. Any other DE is 
> free to join and create own DE-specific subprofile if needed.
> 
> - create 'KDE' (or 'kde') and 'GNOME' (or 'gnome') subprofiles within 
> 'desktop' profile and move any desktop specific things there. This should in 
> theory allow us to not add 'recommended' IUSE defaults to desktop specific 
> packages, but keep those settings in profile - making profile effectively 'out 
> of the box' solution for those who need it.
> 
> If you have any comments, suggestions, important notices regarding this 
> change, please keep discussion in gentoo-desktop mailing list.
> 
> Thanks
> 

As a user and someone who provides support on IRC regularly, I think
extra profiles in this manner is unnecessary complexity. At a guestimate
there's going to be less than 10 USE flags difference between the profiles.

(New) users already find it confusing what the differences between
profiles are (the number of users I've seen using a "developer" profile
because they do some programming, for example*) and frankly I think
having these extra profiles will make some users think you can only have
one of kde or gnome.

Why are we talking about "out of the box" with a distro that doesn't
even come with a pre-compile kernel? Or X installed? Gentoo isn't an
"out of the box" distro. If disabling use flags is considered too
confusing for users, maybe the entire system needs to be revised.


* Why is the developer profile even shown on "eselect profile"? Wouldn't
it be better to keep "unsupported" profiles off this list. Surely Gentoo
devs can cope with setting their profile manually in favor of a little
sanity preservation for the rest of us?

[gentoo-desktop] Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Splitting desktop profile to KDE and GNOME

[Maciej Mrozowski]

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On Monday 26 of October 2009 21:06:04 Rémi Cardona wrote:

> IMHO, we shouldn't even have desktop/server subprofiles to begin with.

> I've always considered Gentoo to be an "opt-in" distro where after a
> successful install, you end up with a bash prompt and a _means_ of
> installing new packages.

> Finding out what USE flags mean and do is part of the Gentoo experience.
> If we were doing spin-off distros like Ubuntu and Fedora do, then
> subprofiles would be fine, but we're not.

> So with my X hat on, I won't be adding any "X" subprofile.

> And with my (former?) Gnome hat on, I vote against any "gnome" subprofile.

I most cases I agree with you. To be more specific - desktop profile should be 
annihilated because it's a joke. It's impractical and bloated.
Splitting it to "kde" and "gnome" is just nicer way of annihilating it.
However, considering amount of confused users on IRC and forums, especially 
after KDE4 stabilization and Qt4 default USE flags change, and considering no 
automatic USE flags management provided by portage (for example via --
interactive mode) - there's no way to make it easier to use.

Making something "easier to use" does not necessarily need to mean "less 
flexible". It we're to provide mostly learning experience and not practical 
solutions, why not rename Gentoo to Eduentoo :)

And I fail to see *any* point in forcing users to learn Gentoo internals (sic! 
like USE flags). What else? Ebuild syntax so that they're able to get to know 
what particular global USE flag is responsible for, when someone forgot (or 
decided not to) describe it in metadata.xml even when semantics is different?
Maybe I sound too harsh here, but that's because I'm not ideologist - I'm 
practical man.

-- 
regards
MM

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Re: [gentoo-desktop] Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Splitting desktop profile to KDE and GNOME

[Sebastian Beßler]

Am 26.10.2009 21:40, schrieb Maciej Mrozowski:

> And I fail to see *any* point in forcing users to learn Gentoo internals (sic! 
> like USE flags).

USE flags are one of the key aspects of Gentoo. Users must know how to
use them and how to handle them. Gentoo isn't for mainstream users. User
who need and want a system that takes all the ugly little learning
things from them should use Ubuntu or any other "Windows-like
distribution".

Greetings

Sebastian

[gentoo-desktop] Re: [RFC] Splitting desktop profile to KDE and GNOME

[Duncan]

Maciej Mrozowski posted on Mon, 26 Oct 2009 21:40:17 +0100 as excerpted:

> And I fail to see *any* point in forcing users to learn Gentoo internals
> (sic! like USE flags). What else? Ebuild syntax so that they're able to
> get to know what particular global USE flag is responsible for, when
> someone forgot (or decided not to) describe it in metadata.xml even when
> semantics is different? Maybe I sound too harsh here, but that's because
> I'm not ideologist - I'm practical man.

Actually, yes.  Gentoo has never been a hand-holding distribution.  We 
try to provide documentation and reasonable defaults for any apps the 
user chooses to install, and let the user configure what they will.

For some time I've wondered about all those profiles.  IMO, for pure/
normal USE flag issues, we don't need profiles.  Profiles are for things 
such as setting the arch, masking stuff that won't run on that arch, 
doing the necessary to make multilib work as appropriate, setting up a 
basic "system" set of packages, etc.

After that, it's upto[1] the user.  USE flags are documented in the 
handbook, and a major defining part of what makes Gentoo, Gentoo.  If 
they can't even manage to learn USE flag basics, honestly, they'd be 
better off with a different distribution, probably something that does a 
bit more hand-holding, like Ubuntu, because they're going thru a whole 
lot of additional hassle compiling stuff, etc, for very little payoff in 
practical terms, because they simply aren't using Gentoo as it was 
designed to be used.

So IMO, few if any USE flags should be set in the profiles.  That is, or 
should be, upto the user to decide.  In general, if a USE flag is not set 
in a user's make.conf, it shouldn't be on, with few exceptions definitely 
not at the system level, and with some exceptions, not at the individual 
ebuild/pkg level either.

---

[1] "Upto": Yeah, I know, but Wictionary already defines it as a "common 
misspelling", so make it even more common and eventually it'll no longer 
be a misspelling but considered normal and correct usage, just as into is 
no longer a misspelling but normal and correct usage.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-desktop] [RFC] Splitting desktop profile to KDE and GNOME

[Ben de Groot]

2009/10/24 Maciej Mrozowski <reavertm@gmail.com>:
> Hi there!
>
> Resulting from discussion during last Gentoo KDE team meeting taking place 22
> Oct 2009 at #gentoo-meetings (summary fill be available soon), having Gentoo
> GNOME team representative, it's been decided to go ahead with splitting
> desktop profile to DE-specific subprofiles, to avoid bloat and provide desktop
> specific separation which should result in desktop subprofiles being actually
> practical.
> It's been proposed to:
>
> - keep 'desktop' profile but strip it from any desktop specific features and
> settings, making it default recommended choice for anyone using non-KDE and
> non-GNOME desktop environment, yet avoiding USE flags bloat. Any other DE is
> free to join and create own DE-specific subprofile if needed.
>
> - create 'KDE' (or 'kde') and 'GNOME' (or 'gnome') subprofiles within
> 'desktop' profile and move any desktop specific things there. This should in
> theory allow us to not add 'recommended' IUSE defaults to desktop specific
> packages, but keep those settings in profile - making profile effectively 'out
> of the box' solution for those who need it.
>
> If you have any comments, suggestions, important notices regarding this
> change, please keep discussion in gentoo-desktop mailing list.
>
> Thanks
>
> --
> regards
> MM
>

Three months later... Why has this not been implemented yet?

Cheers,
-- 
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Linux developer (qt, media, lxde, desktop-misc)
______________________________________________________

Re: [gentoo-desktop] [RFC] Splitting desktop profile to KDE and GNOME

[Theo Chatzimichos]

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On Friday 22 January 2010 18:15:49 Ben de Groot wrote:
> 2009/10/24 Maciej Mrozowski <reavertm@gmail.com>:
> > Hi there!
> > 
> > Resulting from discussion during last Gentoo KDE team meeting taking
> > place 22 Oct 2009 at #gentoo-meetings (summary fill be available soon),
> > having Gentoo GNOME team representative, it's been decided to go ahead
> > with splitting desktop profile to DE-specific subprofiles, to avoid
> > bloat and provide desktop specific separation which should result in
> > desktop subprofiles being actually practical.
> > It's been proposed to:
> > 
> > - keep 'desktop' profile but strip it from any desktop specific features
> > and settings, making it default recommended choice for anyone using
> > non-KDE and non-GNOME desktop environment, yet avoiding USE flags bloat.
> > Any other DE is free to join and create own DE-specific subprofile if
> > needed.
> > 
> > - create 'KDE' (or 'kde') and 'GNOME' (or 'gnome') subprofiles within
> > 'desktop' profile and move any desktop specific things there. This should
> > in theory allow us to not add 'recommended' IUSE defaults to desktop
> > specific packages, but keep those settings in profile - making profile
> > effectively 'out of the box' solution for those who need it.
> > 
> > If you have any comments, suggestions, important notices regarding this
> > change, please keep discussion in gentoo-desktop mailing list.
> > 
> > Thanks
> > 
> > --
> > regards
> > MM
> 
> Three months later... Why has this not been implemented yet?
> 
> Cheers,

Just for the record, I will do this tomorrow. Thanks

-- 
Theo Chatzimichos (tampakrap)
Gentoo KDE Team

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