[gentoo-desktop] Proposal: Split kde use flag into kde3 and kde4

[gentoo-desktop] Proposal: Split kde use flag into kde3 and kde4

[Alexey Shvetsov]

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	Hi all!
I think its better to split kde use flag into 2 new use flags kde3 and kde4 so 
it will not confuse users =)
-- 
Alexey 'Alexxy' Shvetsov
Gentoo/KDE
Gentoo/MIPS
Gentoo Team Ru

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Re: [gentoo-desktop] Proposal: Split kde use flag into kde3 and kde4

[Tomáš Chvátal]

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Dne pondělí 27 Duben 2009 10:45:49 Alexey Shvetsov napsal(a):
> 	Hi all!
> I think its better to split kde use flag into 2 new use flags kde3 and kde4
> so it will not confuse users =)
As we spoke earlier with others on irc:
kde3 stuff = kde3 useflag
kde4 stuff (or any newest kde which is around) = kde useflag
where if kde4 gets outdated it will get kde4 useflag.

Any objections, ideas, anything?

Tomas

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Re: [gentoo-desktop] Proposal: Split kde use flag into kde3 and kde4

[Jan Kundrát]

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Tomáš Chvátal wrote:
> Dne pondělí 27 Duben 2009 10:45:49 Alexey Shvetsov napsal(a):
>> 	Hi all!
>> I think its better to split kde use flag into 2 new use flags kde3 and kde4
>> so it will not confuse users =)
> As we spoke earlier with others on irc:
> kde3 stuff = kde3 useflag
> kde4 stuff (or any newest kde which is around) = kde useflag
> where if kde4 gets outdated it will get kde4 useflag.

Is there any single package that supports both KDE3 and KDE4?

-- 
cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth


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Re: [gentoo-desktop] Proposal: Split kde use flag into kde3 and kde4

[Tomáš Chvátal]

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Dne pondělí 27 Duben 2009 10:59:46 Jan Kundrát napsal(a):
> Tomáš Chvátal wrote:
> > Dne pondělí 27 Duben 2009 10:45:49 Alexey Shvetsov napsal(a):
> >> 	Hi all!
> >> I think its better to split kde use flag into 2 new use flags kde3 and
> >> kde4 so it will not confuse users =)
> >
> > As we spoke earlier with others on irc:
> > kde3 stuff = kde3 useflag
> > kde4 stuff (or any newest kde which is around) = kde useflag
> > where if kde4 gets outdated it will get kde4 useflag.
>
> Is there any single package that supports both KDE3 and KDE4?
Some are,
The issue is currently that user globaly enable kde and now with for example 
subversion he gets pulled kde4.

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Re: [gentoo-desktop] Proposal: Split kde use flag into kde3 and kde4

[Alexey Shvetsov]

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On Понедельник 27 апреля 2009 12:55:49 Tomáš Chvátal wrote:
> Dne pondělí 27 Duben 2009 10:45:49 Alexey Shvetsov napsal(a):
> > 	Hi all!
> > I think its better to split kde use flag into 2 new use flags kde3 and
> > kde4 so it will not confuse users =)
>
> As we spoke earlier with others on irc:
> kde3 stuff = kde3 useflag
> kde4 stuff (or any newest kde which is around) = kde useflag
> where if kde4 gets outdated it will get kde4 useflag.
>
> Any objections, ideas, anything?
>
> Tomas
Hmm i prefer named use flags kde4 for kde4 and kde3 for kde3
in case of using kde use flag for kde4 it will confuse people. =)
-- 
Alexey 'Alexxy' Shvetsov
Gentoo/KDE
Gentoo/MIPS
Gentoo Team Ru

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Re: [gentoo-desktop] Proposal: Split kde use flag into kde3 and kde4

[Philip Webb]

090427 Alexey Shvetsov wrote:
> I think its better to split kde use flag
> into 2 new use flags kde3 and kde4 so it will not confuse users

As a user who tried KDE 4.2.1 & decided to wait for >= 4.3.1 (smile),
having KDE 3 + KDE 4 installed simultaneously is not easy.
There seems to be a basic problem with KDE 4 apps
corrupting KDE 3 settings in the user's  ~/.kde3.5  &  ~/.kde4  dirs.
The problem seems to arise from the single symlink  ~/.kde ,
which has to be pointed to one or the other version of KDE.

Have you guys thought re this aspect of the affair ?

-- 
========================,,============================================
SUPPORT     ___________//___,   Philip Webb
ELECTRIC   /] [] [] [] [] []|   Cities Centre, University of Toronto
TRANSIT    `-O----------O---'   purslowatchassdotutorontodotca

Re: [gentoo-desktop] Proposal: Split kde use flag into kde3 and kde4

[Markos Chandras]

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On Monday 27 April 2009 09:45:49 Alexey Shvetsov wrote:
> 	Hi all!
> I think its better to split kde use flag into 2 new use flags kde3 and kde4
> so it will not confuse users =)
Whilst I like this idea, it will cause a massive yet useless recompilation on 
the next emerge -uN(D) world  . We could keep the current 'kde' use flag and 
introduce a new 'kde4' instead
-- 
Markos Chandras (hwoarang)
Gentoo Linux Developer
Qt/KDE/Sunrise/Sound
Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.gr

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Re: [gentoo-desktop] Proposal: Split kde use flag into kde3 and kde4

[Marcus D. Hanwell]

Philip Webb wrote:
> 090427 Alexey Shvetsov wrote:
>   
>> I think its better to split kde use flag
>> into 2 new use flags kde3 and kde4 so it will not confuse users
>>     
>
> As a user who tried KDE 4.2.1 & decided to wait for >= 4.3.1 (smile),
> having KDE 3 + KDE 4 installed simultaneously is not easy.
> There seems to be a basic problem with KDE 4 apps
> corrupting KDE 3 settings in the user's  ~/.kde3.5  &  ~/.kde4  dirs.
> The problem seems to arise from the single symlink  ~/.kde ,
> which has to be pointed to one or the other version of KDE.
>
> Have you guys thought re this aspect of the affair ?
>
>   
This has already been handled. We set the default configuration
directory for KDE 4 apps to ~/.kde4 for -kdeprefix, and .kde4.2 etc for
slotted. This removes the possibility of KDE 4 apps corrupting KDE 3
apps unless you symlink this directory.

I wonder how many apps can actually support KDE 3 or KDE 4. I would
favour using kde3 for KDE 3 support, and kde for KDE 4 support, if
people feel that this is necessary at all. If you are only talking one
of two apps users have package.use for this kind of thing.

[gentoo-desktop] Re: Proposal: Split kde use flag into kde3 and kde4

[Duncan]

Tomáš Chvátal <scarabeus@gentoo.org> posted
200904271103.08247.scarabeus@gentoo.org, excerpted below, on  Mon, 27 Apr
2009 11:03:08 +0200:

> Dne pondělí 27 Duben 2009 10:59:46 Jan Kundrát napsal(a):
>> Tomáš Chvátal wrote:
>> > Dne pondělí 27 Duben 2009 10:45:49 Alexey Shvetsov napsal(a):
>> >> 	Hi all!
>> >> I think its better to split kde use flag into 2 new use flags kde3
>> >> and kde4 so it will not confuse users =)
>> >
>> > As we spoke earlier with others on irc: kde3 stuff = kde3 useflag
>> > kde4 stuff (or any newest kde which is around) = kde useflag where if
>> > kde4 gets outdated it will get kde4 useflag.
>>
>> Is there any single package that supports both KDE3 and KDE4?
> Some are,
> The issue is currently that user globaly enable kde and now with for
> example subversion he gets pulled kde4.

Before the discussion goes too far, please please either go back and 
check the dev-list archives or talk to some of the devs that have been 
around for awhile.  It's relatively easy to both confuse users and make 
further version changes MUCH more difficult than they need to be, and 
looking thru the archives will provide much material on all the angst 
that previous policies generated by not getting it right.

In particular, don't make the mistake gtk/gtk2 did for awhile.  USE=gtk 
indicated a general desire to have gtk (of any version) support, while 
USE=gtk2 indicated that gtk2 should be favored over gtk1, otherwise, gtk1 
was the default.  That policy, which looked quite reasonable when gtk2 
was new and experimental, ended up boxing them into a corner as gtk2 
improved and became the dominant version, while gtk1 grew stale and was 
eventually deprecated in the Gentoo tree and later masked and ultimately 
removed (along with any packages, xmms being one of the most popular, 
that hadn't upgraded to gtk2 by then), and they ultimately ended up 
changing it in a way that couldn't be anything /but/ rough for some users.

But even before that it was a pain, because it didn't follow the 
intuitive idea that USE=gtk meant gtk1 support while USE=gtk2 meant gtk2 
support.  New users very often enabled gtk2 without enabling gtk, 
believing they were expressing a desire for gtk2 support but NOT gtk1, 
when instead what it was really expressing was, don't support gtk (of any 
version) unless you have to, but if it's mandatory and there's a choice, 
choose gtk2 over gtk1.

Unfortunately there's few if any Gentoo/KDE devs remaining around from 
that time.  I'm not sure about Gentoo/GNOME or Gentoo/GTK.  However, note 
that such USE flag changes will be global in any case due to their 
popularity, and thus should be discussed on the dev list and if I'm not 
mistaken, run by council.  I'm not sure about the others, but Donnie was 
certainly around at the time, and is on council so his opinion will 
certainly matter in any case.  It's thus worth getting his input and 
those of any others that ware around then to remember, as it could well 
prevent some needless palm-to-forehead, "how could they have done that 
/again/ sometime in the future.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-desktop] Re: Proposal: Split kde use flag into kde3 and kde4

[Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto]

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Duncan wrote:
> Tomáš Chvátal <scarabeus@gentoo.org> posted
> 200904271103.08247.scarabeus@gentoo.org, excerpted below, on  Mon, 27 Apr
> 2009 11:03:08 +0200:
> 
>> Dne pondělí 27 Duben 2009 10:59:46 Jan Kundrát napsal(a):
>>> Tomáš Chvátal wrote:
>>>> Dne pondělí 27 Duben 2009 10:45:49 Alexey Shvetsov napsal(a):
>>>>> 	Hi all!
>>>>> I think its better to split kde use flag into 2 new use flags kde3
>>>>> and kde4 so it will not confuse users =)
>>>> As we spoke earlier with others on irc: kde3 stuff = kde3 useflag
>>>> kde4 stuff (or any newest kde which is around) = kde useflag where if
>>>> kde4 gets outdated it will get kde4 useflag.
>>> Is there any single package that supports both KDE3 and KDE4?
>> Some are,
>> The issue is currently that user globaly enable kde and now with for
>> example subversion he gets pulled kde4.
> 
> Before the discussion goes too far, please please either go back and 
> check the dev-list archives or talk to some of the devs that have been 
> around for awhile.  It's relatively easy to both confuse users and make 
> further version changes MUCH more difficult than they need to be, and 
> looking thru the archives will provide much material on all the angst 
> that previous policies generated by not getting it right.

Duncan,

although I'm not that "old", I've been around for a while now.
As I've said to Theo and Thomas before, we should use the kde use flag
for general KDE support - if an app supports more than one version, we
should enable the support for the latest version. We should use
kde-<major-version> for choosing a specific version.
I understand a "sliding" version use flag might be confusing for users
(at one point kde would mean KDE-3.*, later KDE-4 and one day KDE-6),
but I think it has some advantages as it allows users to have packages
with KDE support (even when they work against newer versions) just by
keep using the same use flag and won't have to update it from kde3, to
kde4, ... kdeN. One important point here is that the kde* use flags are
used by packages outside of kde-base/*, so that doesn't affect directly
the KDE version the user is running - the "kdeprefix" use flag is for
the time being our answer to the concern about being able to have more
than one KDE version around (which might be required for packages that
don't work with the latest version - k3b anyone?)

> In particular, don't make the mistake gtk/gtk2 did for awhile.  USE=gtk 
> indicated a general desire to have gtk (of any version) support, while 
> USE=gtk2 indicated that gtk2 should be favored over gtk1, otherwise, gtk1 
> was the default.  That policy, which looked quite reasonable when gtk2 
> was new and experimental, ended up boxing them into a corner as gtk2 
> improved and became the dominant version, while gtk1 grew stale and was 
> eventually deprecated in the Gentoo tree and later masked and ultimately 
> removed (along with any packages, xmms being one of the most popular, 
> that hadn't upgraded to gtk2 by then), and they ultimately ended up 
> changing it in a way that couldn't be anything /but/ rough for some users.
> 
> But even before that it was a pain, because it didn't follow the 
> intuitive idea that USE=gtk meant gtk1 support while USE=gtk2 meant gtk2 
> support.  New users very often enabled gtk2 without enabling gtk, 
> believing they were expressing a desire for gtk2 support but NOT gtk1, 
> when instead what it was really expressing was, don't support gtk (of any 
> version) unless you have to, but if it's mandatory and there's a choice, 
> choose gtk2 over gtk1.
> 
> Unfortunately there's few if any Gentoo/KDE devs remaining around from 
> that time.  I'm not sure about Gentoo/GNOME or Gentoo/GTK.  However, note 
> that such USE flag changes will be global in any case due to their 
> popularity, and thus should be discussed on the dev list and if I'm not 
> mistaken, run by council.  I'm not sure about the others, but Donnie was 
> certainly around at the time, and is on council so his opinion will 
> certainly matter in any case.  It's thus worth getting his input and 
> those of any others that ware around then to remember, as it could well 
> prevent some needless palm-to-forehead, "how could they have done that 
> /again/ sometime in the future.

The use flags for KDE apps are in the end the responsibility of the KDE
team. However, we do want and value other inputs and will mail the dev
ml before doing any changes. Just to be clear, this does not require any
 "vote by" or "approval from" the council.


- --
Regards,

Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org
Gentoo- forums / Userrel / Devrel / SPARC / KDE
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[gentoo-desktop] Re: Proposal: Split kde use flag into kde3 and kde4

[Duncan]

"Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto" <jmbsvicetto@gentoo.org> posted
49F65432.4060707@gentoo.org, excerpted below, on  Tue, 28 Apr 2009
00:56:18 +0000:

> One important point here is that the kde* use flags are used by packages
> outside of kde-base/*, so that doesn't affect directly the KDE version
> the user is running - the "kdeprefix" use flag is for the time being our
> answer to the concern about being able to have more than one KDE version
> around (which might be required for packages that don't work with the
> latest version - k3b anyone?)

Interesting your choice of example, given all the news out about the new 
k3b-2.0 kde4-version alpha, today. =:^) 

Thanks for the reply.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-desktop] Re: Proposal: Split kde use flag into kde3 and kde4

[Maciej Mrozowski]

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On Monday 27 of April 2009 16:19:31 Duncan wrote:

[snip]
> But even before that it was a pain, because it didn't follow the
> intuitive idea that USE=gtk meant gtk1 support while USE=gtk2 meant gtk2
> support.  New users very often enabled gtk2 without enabling gtk,
> believing they were expressing a desire for gtk2 support but NOT gtk1,
> when instead what it was really expressing was, don't support gtk (of any
> version) unless you have to, but if it's mandatory and there's a choice,
> choose gtk2 over gtk1.
[snip]

It's good that Alexxy raised this issue.
And I actually support Duncan here.
Good thing is - there are not that many packages with newly added 'kde' USE 
flags that refer to KDE4.
If some package provides support for both KDE3 and KDE4 - there's no other 
option but to add kde3 and kde4 USE flags if it's meant to be obvious and 
descriptive for users.
And what does 'general KDE support mean for' when 'kde' USE flag is provided?
Usually KDE support means required presence of kdelibs, and... one simply 
cannot compile same code against kdelibs from KDE3 and KDE4 - so it should be 
distinguished somehow - otherwise users would need to adjust package.use.
Introducing kde3, kde4 USE flags, users at least are able to globally 
(make.conf) decide whether they care about KDE support for KDE they have.

-- 
regards
MM

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Re: [gentoo-desktop] Re: Proposal: Split kde use flag into kde3 and kde4

[Donnie Berkholz]

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On 14:19 Mon 27 Apr     , Duncan wrote:
> In particular, don't make the mistake gtk/gtk2 did for awhile.  USE=gtk 
> indicated a general desire to have gtk (of any version) support, while 
> USE=gtk2 indicated that gtk2 should be favored over gtk1, otherwise, gtk1 
> was the default.  That policy, which looked quite reasonable when gtk2 
> was new and experimental, ended up boxing them into a corner as gtk2 
> improved and became the dominant version, while gtk1 grew stale and was 
> eventually deprecated in the Gentoo tree and later masked and ultimately 
> removed (along with any packages, xmms being one of the most popular, 
> that hadn't upgraded to gtk2 by then), and they ultimately ended up 
> changing it in a way that couldn't be anything /but/ rough for some users.
> 
> But even before that it was a pain, because it didn't follow the 
> intuitive idea that USE=gtk meant gtk1 support while USE=gtk2 meant gtk2 
> support.  New users very often enabled gtk2 without enabling gtk, 
> believing they were expressing a desire for gtk2 support but NOT gtk1, 
> when instead what it was really expressing was, don't support gtk (of any 
> version) unless you have to, but if it's mandatory and there's a choice, 
> choose gtk2 over gtk1.

One thing that's changed since then is package-local USE defaults. So 
you can pick the best (most stable, etc) toolkit on a per-package level 
and have a versioned USE flag for the other (if it's newer) or don't 
have an option at all (if it's older than the stable one).


-- 
Thanks,
Donnie

Donnie Berkholz
Desktop project lead
Gentoo Linux
Blog: http://dberkholz.wordpress.com

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