[gentoo-desktop-research] Gentoo-desktop howto fix-up

[gentoo-desktop-research] Gentoo-desktop howto fix-up

[dams]

gerrynjr, could you sum up the modifications/rewrite that you plan to do on the
desktop guide? So that we can make that validated by desktop guys and
documentation guys. And also the list of people wanting to work with you on
that (count me in, to review the first drafts, and suggest additions, I sadly
won't have the time to do more)

After that, we'll be able to start a project task.

thanks

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Re: [gentoo-desktop-research] Gentoo-desktop howto fix-up

[munky]

In that case, we should establish what programs we would like to include
in this. First, perhaps it would be more intelligent to establish
categories:
-Multimedia
  -Audio Player
	-Xmms
  -Video Player
	-Xine
	-Mplayer
  -Audio (CD) Ripper
        -grip
  -DVD Ripper
        -dvdrip
-Internet
  -Web browsers
	-konqueror
	-mozilla
	-opera
	-mozilla firebird
  -Email Clients
	-kmail
	-evolution
  -IM Clients
	-Gaim
  -IRC Clients
	-Xchat
-Office Suites
        -Open Office
	-Kword (suite)
	-Abiword
-Burning Programs
	-K3b
	-Xcdroast
-Peer to Peer Programs
	-Gtk-Gnutella
	-Gift
	-Mutella
	-MlDonkey

That's all I could think of for now, but I can always browse portage.

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Re: [gentoo-desktop-research] Gentoo-desktop howto fix-up

[Joel Konkle-Parker]

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munky@munkys.com wrote:
> In that case, we should establish what programs we would like to include
> in this. First, perhaps it would be more intelligent to establish
> categories:
> -Multimedia
>   -Audio Player
> 	-Xmms
         -xmms plugins
>   -Video Player
> 	-Xine
> 	-Mplayer
>   -Audio (CD) Ripper
>         -grip
           -flac
           -lame
>   -DVD Ripper
>         -dvdrip
> -Internet
>   -Web browsers
> 	-konqueror
> 	-mozilla
> 	-opera
> 	-mozilla firebird
     -Plugins
         -realone
         -mplayer-plugin
         -flash (what package?)
>   -Email Clients
> 	-kmail
> 	-evolution
>   -IM Clients
> 	-Gaim
         -ayttm
>   -IRC Clients
> 	-Xchat
> -Office Suites
>         -Open Office
> 	-Kword (suite)
> 	-Abiword
> -Burning Programs
> 	-K3b
> 	-Xcdroast
> -Peer to Peer Programs
> 	-Gtk-Gnutella
> 	-Gift
> 	-Mutella
> 	-MlDonkey
         -freenet
   -Misc
         -Seti@Home
         -Wine


Yeah, I know, it's easy to see how this list could get out of control, 
but I think we should get the big ones down, then prune.


-- 
Joel Konkle-Parker
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Re: [gentoo-desktop-research] Gentoo-desktop howto fix-up

[Luke-Jr]

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On Tuesday 18 November 2003 02:07 am, munky@munkys.com wrote:
> -Multimedia
>   -Audio Player
> 	-Xmms
	-Zinf
>   -Video Player
> 	-Xine
> 	-Mplayer
>   -Audio (CD) Ripper
>         -grip
	-k3b
>   -DVD Ripper
>         -dvdrip
> -Internet
>   -Web browsers
> 	-konqueror
> 	-mozilla
> 	-opera
> 	-mozilla firebird
>   -Email Clients
> 	-kmail
		/kontact
> 	-evolution
	-mozilla mail
	-mozilla thunderbird
>   -IM Clients
> 	-Gaim
	-Kopete
	-Psi
>   -IRC Clients
> 	-Xchat
	-telnet (j/k)
> -Office Suites
>         -Open Office
> 	-Kword (suite)
> 	-Abiword
	-Mozilla Composer (fits most user's needs)
> -Burning Programs
move this into Multimedia...
> 	-K3b
> 	-Xcdroast
> -Peer to Peer Programs
> 	-Gtk-Gnutella
> 	-Gift
> 	-Mutella
> 	-MlDonkey
		(Should we include clients that violate the rules of P2P services they 
connect to?)
	-DCGui-Qt
	-Lopster
	-BitTorrent (bittorrent{,-{mxs,theshadow}})
- -- 
Luke-Jr
Developer, Gentoo Linux
http://www.gentoo.org/
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Re: [gentoo-desktop-research] Gentoo-desktop howto fix-up

[dams]

from now I have noted this modification to the desktop guide :

- add hdparm settings
- add a note on refresh rates detection
- build a list of desktop applications that we would like to be
  presented and documented, sorted by DE

I'd add :
- maybe we should merge alsa, localisation and DRI into desktop guide? or split
desktop guide in DE conf, email conf, etc...


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Re: [gentoo-desktop-research] Gentoo-desktop howto fix-up

[Rune Morling]

On 11/18/03 03:07:19, munky@munkys.com wrote:
> In that case, we should establish what programs we would like to
> include
> in this. First, perhaps it would be more intelligent to establish
> categories:

[snip]

Nice initiative. Might I suggest you maintain this list and add it to  
the desktop-research project pages?

In general, there exist several 'best of breed' applications for  
different environments so how about adding what apps are native
to which DE? I run gnome 2.4 exclusively (this mail is written using
the gnome2 MUA balsa which works wonderfully), some run mixed  
environments, some run pure KDE and yet others run XFCE and
some even run a 'non DE' with fluxbox et al.

I think it would make the most sense if we target our efforts on the
'de facto'  DE standards (drag n' drop, mime-database etc as embodied
in KDE, gnome and XFCE).

In other words if someone decides that fluxbox is really cool,
rxvt+mutt is the only 'non-bloated' MUA solution, drag n' drop
is a some fancy new-fangled concept of no real use, mime-type-handling
is a shortlived fad, then, well, he/she isn't really in the target  
audience for the 'gentoo desktop experience'.

Anyway, target audience is a central concept and I can't help but
wonder where we are in this respect. Comments please!

/ermo

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Re: [gentoo-desktop-research] Gentoo-desktop howto fix-up

[dams]

Rune Morling <gentoo@u7.dk> said:

> On 11/18/03 03:07:19, munky@munkys.com wrote:
>> In that case, we should establish what programs we would like to
>> include
>> in this. First, perhaps it would be more intelligent to establish
>> categories:
>
> [snip]
>
> Nice initiative. Might I suggest you maintain this list and add it to  
> the desktop-research project pages?
>
> In general, there exist several 'best of breed' applications for  
> different environments so how about adding what apps are native
> to which DE? I run gnome 2.4 exclusively (this mail is written using
> the gnome2 MUA balsa which works wonderfully), some run mixed  
> environments, some run pure KDE and yet others run XFCE and
> some even run a 'non DE' with fluxbox et al.
>
> I think it would make the most sense if we target our efforts on the
> 'de facto'  DE standards (drag n' drop, mime-database etc as embodied
> in KDE, gnome and XFCE).
>
> In other words if someone decides that fluxbox is really cool,
> rxvt+mutt is the only 'non-bloated' MUA solution, drag n' drop
> is a some fancy new-fangled concept of no real use, mime-type-handling
> is a shortlived fad, then, well, he/she isn't really in the target  
> audience for the 'gentoo desktop experience'.
>
> Anyway, target audience is a central concept and I can't help but
> wonder where we are in this respect. Comments please!

Please read the manifest
(http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/desktop/research/manifest.xml), there is a
definition of what a desktop related issue is. Thus you can see what
application should be handled or not.

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Re: [gentoo-desktop-research] Gentoo-desktop howto fix-up

[foser]

On Tue, 2003-11-18 at 03:07, munky@munkys.com wrote:
> -Office Suites
>         -Open Office
> 	-Kword (suite)
> 	-Abiword

Abiword is part of Gnome Office

- foser


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Re: [gentoo-desktop-research] Gentoo-desktop howto fix-up

[munky]

For the most part it isn't that bad. I do see the problems with narration
as the howto should be written in a professional matter not using "I". I
also think that we are limiting the user in his/her options. We should
describe the window managers and state pros and cons about them. In
addition, I would like to put in additional help for other programs. I
think it would be fair to include setup and configuration information for:
Xine, Mplayer, K3b, xcdroast, xchat, gaim, open office,...etc. We should
try to cover every category of applications used for the end-user and
provide at least two choices for both.

Hi,
Any change you are interested in performing an audit on the desktop
configuraion guide? I'm not really happy with how it is currently.
Several lines say "I this and I that", making the guide less readable for
users (it's more like a listing on what the author did). Also, several
lines aren't very reader friendly, such as "Author> recommends" instead of
"The author recommends". As you're related with desktop-research, I hope
you can do this.Wkr,
Sven Vermeulen

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Re: [gentoo-desktop-research] Gentoo-desktop howto fix-up

[Joel Konkle-Parker]

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munky@munkys.com wrote:
> For the most part it isn't that bad. I do see the problems with narration
> as the howto should be written in a professional matter not using "I". I
> also think that we are limiting the user in his/her options. We should
> describe the window managers and state pros and cons about them. In
> addition, I would like to put in additional help for other programs. I
> think it would be fair to include setup and configuration information for:
> Xine, Mplayer, K3b, xcdroast, xchat, gaim, open office,...etc. We should
> try to cover every category of applications used for the end-user and
> provide at least two choices for both.

I strongly agree with this. The average desktop user uses all of the 
different types of applications listed above (not console mail readers 
and mtas, etc.). We should explain how such applications relate to one 
another (OpenOffice vs. KOffice, Mplayer vs. Xine, etc.) and how them 
how to set them up using the most common and desired options.


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Joel Konkle-Parker
Webmaster [Ballsome.com]

Phone     [+1 662-518-1636]
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Re: [gentoo-desktop-research] Gentoo-desktop howto fix-up

[foser]

On Tue, 2003-11-18 at 00:26, munky@munkys.com wrote:
>  We should
> describe the window managers and state pros and cons about them. 

This is fairly subjective. I personally think we should only be
mentioning the major DE's (GNOME,KDE & maybe XFCE) as complete
solutions. The aim should be to inform of what is useful to a big
majority, not to cover everything out there.

> In
> addition, I would like to put in additional help for other programs. I
> think it would be fair to include setup and configuration information for:
> Xine, Mplayer, K3b, xcdroast, xchat, gaim, open office,...etc. We should
> try to cover every category of applications used for the end-user and
> provide at least two choices for both.

And make it even more of an information overloaded document ? Again it
should cover the basics. Individual applications should not need to be
described, they usually need no additional configuration (the ones you
mention here shouldn't at least) and are fairly straightforward anyway.
Besides that they usually come with some form of GUI help, a more
important task i think would be to make the available help consistently
accessible (like Yelp tries to do in gnome).

A list of suggestions in the spirit of 'well you got your basic desktop
now, check these out if you want more' i could live with. But this would
again be a subjective list and probably quickly out of date.

- foser


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Re: [gentoo-desktop-research] Gentoo-desktop howto fix-up

[Joel Konkle-Parker]

foser wrote:
> On Tue, 2003-11-18 at 00:26, munky@munkys.com wrote:
> 
>> We should
>>describe the window managers and state pros and cons about them. 
> 
> 
> This is fairly subjective. I personally think we should only be
> mentioning the major DE's (GNOME,KDE & maybe XFCE) as complete
> solutions. The aim should be to inform of what is useful to a big
> majority, not to cover everything out there.

I think it would be useful to cover these and others, and I think it's 
possible to do it in a nonsubjective (or barely subjective) way. Take 
the following for example:

"If you are looking for a complete desktop solution that comes close to 
approximating what you would get out of the box from Windows, try GNOME 
or KDE. They both have fairly mature component applications, and either 
will work well for a full-featured desktop environment. Note that these 
are large application sets, and will take a long time to merge. GNOME 
and KDE also don't share a common toolset, so applications written for 
KDE will look and act differently than those written for GNOME. XFCE is 
a relative newcomer to the full-featured desktop world, and focuses on 
speed. It is more lightweight than the others, although it shares many 
of the most useful features (note: I don't know XFCE, I've never used it.)

On the other hand, if you are looking for a more unix-y environment that 
will stay out of your way and give you the ultimate customizability and 
speed, you might consider something like WindowMaker or BlackBox.... 
(yada yada, here's the differences, here's their reputations, here's 
what they're good for, yada yada)"

Maybe this helps?


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Re: [gentoo-desktop-research] Gentoo-desktop howto fix-up

[foser]

On Thu, 2003-11-20 at 21:54, Joel Konkle-Parker wrote:
> I think it would be useful to cover these and others, and I think it's 
> possible to do it in a nonsubjective (or barely subjective) way. Take 
> the following for example:
> 
> "If you are looking for a complete desktop solution that comes close to 
> approximating what you would get out of the box from Windows, try GNOME 
> or KDE. They both have fairly mature component applications, and either 
> will work well for a full-featured desktop environment. Note that these 
> are large application sets, and will take a long time to merge.

But GNOME won't take half as much time as KDE on the same machine and on
a recent system it's done in a few hours most. Anyway, stage 1-ers will
have a great deal of compiling behind them, so the DE is relatively
insignificant (well.. except for KDE maybe).

>  GNOME 
> and KDE also don't share a common toolset, so applications written for 
> KDE will look and act differently than those written for GNOME. XFCE is 
> a relative newcomer to the full-featured desktop world, and focuses on 
> speed. It is more lightweight than the others, although it shares many 
> of the most useful features (note: I don't know XFCE, I've never used it.)

Last time i checked XFCE it wasn't really well balanced and smooth
running out of the box.

> On the other hand, if you are looking for a more unix-y environment that 
> will stay out of your way and give you the ultimate customizability and 
> speed, you might consider something like WindowMaker or BlackBox.... 
> (yada yada, here's the differences, here's their reputations, here's 
> what they're good for, yada yada)"

What's a unix-y environment ? I'm a newcomer to linux here. I got a lot
of choice, what do i have to choose ?

What i mean to say here is, these are qualitative indications done by
one individual and already the amount of different DEs is confusing. Not
to mention added WMs (do i get a full desktop with blackbox too?).

A little descriptive story like this would be ok, but it should focus on
the major DEs : KDE & GNOME and maybe XFCE, not certain about the latter
'from scratch' quality. To my knowledge (but it lacks in this) the first
two at least are part of a stage3 iso, so the compilation time issue
doesn't even have to be mentioned (people with a stage3 iso do not need
to compile anything, others have compiled most of the system all the way
and don't expect anything else from that point on).

- foser


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[gentoo-desktop-research] Gentoo-desktop howto fix-up

[Gerald J. Normandin Jr.]

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Below you will find the email that Swift had sent me regarding fixing up
the desktop-howto, it contains his suggestions. Please add your own
suggestions, and work will be underway on fixing this up. I will be
coordinating with the docs team as well as our team, and will take care
of submissions, bugs, etc.

The howto can be found at: http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/desktop.xml


Thanks,
Gerald J. Normandin Jr.


> Hi,
> 
> Any change you are interested in performing an audit on the desktop
> configuraion guide? I'm not really happy with how it is currently.
Several
> lines say "I this and I that", making the guide less readable for
users (it's
> more like a listing on what the author did).
> 
> Also, several lines aren't very reader friendly, such as "Author
recommends"
> instead of "The author recommends".
> 
> As you're related with desktop-research, I hope you can do this.
> 
> Wkr,
>       Sven Vermeulen
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Re: [gentoo-desktop-research] Gentoo-desktop howto fix-up

[Joel Konkle-Parker]

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Gerald J. Normandin Jr. wrote:
> Below you will find the email that Swift had sent me regarding fixing up
> the desktop-howto, it contains his suggestions. Please add your own
> suggestions, and work will be underway on fixing this up. I will be
> coordinating with the docs team as well as our team, and will take care
> of submissions, bugs, etc.
> 
> The howto can be found at: http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/desktop.xml
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> Gerald J. Normandin Jr.

Thanks for taking this on, guys. I would just suggest that there be a 
section on setting up hdparm added to the howto (rc-update add hdparm 
default, /etc/config.d/hdparm, etc.).


-- 
Joel Konkle-Parker
Webmaster [Ballsome.com]

Phone     [+1 662-518-1636]
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Re: [gentoo-desktop-research] Gentoo-desktop howto fix-up

[Paul de Vrieze]

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On Monday 17 November 2003 23:52, Gerald J. Normandin Jr. wrote:
> Below you will find the email that Swift had sent me regarding fixing up
> the desktop-howto, it contains his suggestions. Please add your own
> suggestions, and work will be underway on fixing this up. I will be
> coordinating with the docs team as well as our team, and will take care
> of submissions, bugs, etc.

In the xfree part there is a note about refresh rates. However with most 
modern displays, videocards and a modern xfree it X can actually use DDC to 
figure out refresh rates, modes etc. Saving a lot of problems, making things 
"just work". Maybe a note could be added to that respect.

Paul

-- 
Paul de Vrieze
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Mail: pauldv@gentoo.org
Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net

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Re: [gentoo-desktop-research] Gentoo-desktop howto fix-up

[foser]

On Tue, 2003-11-18 at 11:14, Paul de Vrieze wrote:
> In the xfree part there is a note about refresh rates. However with most 
> modern displays, videocards and a modern xfree it X can actually use DDC to 
> figure out refresh rates, modes etc. Saving a lot of problems, making things 
> "just work". Maybe a note could be added to that respect.

I would even take it a step further and scrap the refresh rate mumbo
jumbo. We have Xrandr and related tools now, X configuration should be
kept to a basic guide to get it running decently. Then a more extensive
xfree guide could be done and linked to for additional (expert)
configuration needs.

- foser


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Re: [gentoo-desktop-research] Gentoo-desktop howto fix-up

[Luke-Jr]

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On Thursday 20 November 2003 11:31 pm, foser wrote:
> I would even take it a step further and scrap the refresh rate mumbo
> jumbo. We have Xrandr and related tools now, X configuration should be
> kept to a basic guide to get it running decently. Then a more extensive
> xfree guide could be done and linked to for additional (expert)
> configuration needs.
Why not just detect X configuration at boot and save stuff like preferred 
resolution etc somewhere else?
Of course, there might be a problem if the autodetection doesn't work, but we 
could probably fallback to VGA so the user can manually configure it.
- -- 
Luke-Jr
Developer, Gentoo Linux
http://www.gentoo.org/
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Re: [gentoo-desktop-research] Gentoo-desktop howto fix-up

[dams]

Luke-Jr <luke-jr@gentoo.org> said:

> On Thursday 20 November 2003 11:31 pm, foser wrote:
>> I would even take it a step further and scrap the refresh rate mumbo
>> jumbo. We have Xrandr and related tools now, X configuration should be
>> kept to a basic guide to get it running decently. Then a more extensive
>> xfree guide could be done and linked to for additional (expert)
>> configuration needs.
> Why not just detect X configuration at boot and save stuff like preferred 
> resolution etc somewhere else?
> Of course, there might be a problem if the autodetection doesn't work, but we 
> could probably fallback to VGA so the user can manually configure it.

That's the way to go imo, but a desktop guide should be usefull for the cases
where you are in trouble, that is when the detection doesn't work.

I remember installing my second gentoo on a running linux, mounting stage1 cd
iso in loopback. So no boot, no detection. Of course it's unusual, but if the
guide can be some kind of reference, I think it's a usefull feature.

-- 
dams

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Re: [gentoo-desktop-research] Gentoo-desktop howto fix-up

[Gerald J. Normandin Jr.]

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I've always thought that the install guide would provide for devices
that are not detected properly.

In any case, some very good dicussion going on, aand i've been jotting
down some notes, regarding audience, content, etc.

So.. what is everyone's position on including basic howtos for various
popular desktop applications? (can a vote be taken from actual users of
gentoo?)

On Fri, 2003-11-21 at 17:14, dams@idm.fr wrote:
> Luke-Jr <luke-jr@gentoo.org> said:
> 
> > On Thursday 20 November 2003 11:31 pm, foser wrote:
> >> I would even take it a step further and scrap the refresh rate mumbo
> >> jumbo. We have Xrandr and related tools now, X configuration should be
> >> kept to a basic guide to get it running decently. Then a more extensive
> >> xfree guide could be done and linked to for additional (expert)
> >> configuration needs.
> > Why not just detect X configuration at boot and save stuff like preferred 
> > resolution etc somewhere else?
> > Of course, there might be a problem if the autodetection doesn't work, but we 
> > could probably fallback to VGA so the user can manually configure it.
> 
> That's the way to go imo, but a desktop guide should be usefull for the cases
> where you are in trouble, that is when the detection doesn't work.
> 
> I remember installing my second gentoo on a running linux, mounting stage1 cd
> iso in loopback. So no boot, no detection. Of course it's unusual, but if the
> guide can be some kind of reference, I think it's a usefull feature.
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Re: [gentoo-desktop-research] Gentoo-desktop howto fix-up

[Luke-Jr]

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On Friday 21 November 2003 10:14 pm, dams@idm.fr wrote:
> That's the way to go imo, but a desktop guide should be usefull for the
> cases\r where you are in trouble, that is when the detection doesn't work. 
> I remember installing my second gentoo on a running linux, mounting stage1
> cd\r iso in loopback. So no boot, no detection. Of course it's unusual, but
> if the guide can be some kind of reference, I think it's a usefull feature.
Of course. That's why it could use a configuration file to override 
autodetected settings.
- -- 
Luke-Jr
Developer, Gentoo Linux
http://www.gentoo.org/
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