[gentoo-amd64]

[gentoo-amd64]

[Joshua Hoblitt]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 324 bytes --]

<dustin@v.igoro.us>
Cc:
Bcc: 
Subject: Re: [gentoo-amd64] unsubscribe
Reply-To: 
In-Reply-To: <468CBF77.1010301@my-next-home.de>

Ahem... I think you missed your queue.

-J

--
On Thu, Jul 05, 2007 at 11:52:55AM +0200, Matthias Zirnstein wrote:
> unsubscribe
> -- 
> gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
> 

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 189 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-amd64]

[Dustin J. Mitchell]

On Thu, Jul 05, 2007 at 04:02:00PM -1000, Joshua Hoblitt wrote:
> <dustin@v.igoro.us>
> Cc:
> Bcc: 
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-amd64] unsubscribe
> Reply-To: 
> In-Reply-To: <468CBF77.1010301@my-next-home.de>
> 
> Ahem... I think you missed your queue.

Sorry -- I hadn't had my coffee yet.

I also feel a little guilty that my only contribution as an AT is to
make fun of people trying to unsubscribe from the list.  It's not
exactly productive, and only serves to reinforce the bad rep that Gentoo
has.

Dustin
-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-amd64]

[B. Nice]

On Thu, 2007-07-05 at 21:25 -0500, Dustin J. Mitchell wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 05, 2007 at 04:02:00PM -1000, Joshua Hoblitt wrote:
> > <dustin@v.igoro.us>
> > Cc:
> > Bcc: 
> > Subject: Re: [gentoo-amd64] unsubscribe
> > Reply-To: 
> > In-Reply-To: <468CBF77.1010301@my-next-home.de>
> > 
> > Ahem... I think you missed your queue.
> 
> Sorry -- I hadn't had my coffee yet.
> 
> I also feel a little guilty that my only contribution as an AT is to
> make fun of people trying to unsubscribe from the list.  It's not
> exactly productive, and only serves to reinforce the bad rep that Gentoo
> has.
> 
> Dustin
Way off topic, but since there is none for this I don't feel too bad.

Where do people get the idea that Gentoo has a bad reputation?  I've
come across just as many fanatics using other distros (Debian and
Slackware come to mind) as I have using Gentoo.  Granted the fanatics
can be irritating, but I've noticed that if you respect their opinion,
even if you don't agree, they have useful information to share.  
Gentoo has better documentation, IMNSHO, then most other non-commercial
distros do.  The only better documentation I've come across was with
SuSE 8.2, a commercial distro, with paid tech writers and editors (I
can't really comment on what the documentation is like in post-Novell
iterations).  To be honest, the quality wasn't that much better then
Gentoo.  
Being as uninterested with the developer politics as I am, I know that
there has been a turn over in developers for what sounds like
inter-personal reasons.  But that is normal on any large project where
people who care about what they are doing are working.  It's human
nature to get emotionally involved in your view and it causes excessive
bad feelings if/when your idea is overruled.  
It could be the ricers giving Gentoo a bad name, but you have ricers
trying to uber-optimize pretty much anything.  Maybe they are just more
vocal about it with a source-based distro then a binary distro.  
It is very unlikely that it's caused by the people manning the IRC
channels or who partake in the forums.  With a very few rare exceptions
that are easily ignored, the people are uniformly helpful, knowledgeable
and willing to assist even the most bone-headed of people (I fall into
the bone-headed variety myself.. ;-) )  

Just wanted to get that thought out there for the rest of the list.
It's true Gentoo is not the be all and end all of distros.  But is
definitely doesn't deserve any special note for doing things badly.

^^ShadowHawk^^

-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-amd64]

[Dustin J. Mitchell]

On Fri, Jul 06, 2007 at 09:02:05AM -0400, B. Nice wrote:
> > I also feel a little guilty that my only contribution as an AT is to
> > make fun of people trying to unsubscribe from the list.  It's not
> > exactly productive, and only serves to reinforce the bad rep that Gentoo
> > has.
> Where do people get the idea that Gentoo has a bad reputation?  I've

Well, keep in mind that I run in what is probably a slightly different
circle -- server admins.

Gentoo has a *lot* to recommend it technically for administering a
server -- fine-grained control, careful management of the upgrade path,
transparency, extensibility, etc.

But the cultural shift is painful when folks like me try to interact
with the Gentoo user or developer community.  I think I'm a fairly
technically adept person (hey, I passed the ebuild quiz), yet several of
my bugs have been blown off fairly rudely, by developers who had
obviously not read the entire bug.  Of course, interactions on IRC are
even worse.  

The result is that I don't file bugs anymore -- I make a fixed local
copy of the ebuild and call it a day.  Since I can't recommend that my
clients and employers do the same, I set them up with a RedHat-derived
base system and then hand-compile the necessary software on top of that.

By way of comparison, problems I have had with specific pieces of
business-critical software (vs. with the distro) have been handled with
professionalism and dignity.

Maybe the problem is that Gentoo devs are *too* accessible, and aren't
really given a choice in the matter.  Does e.g.,
https://bugzilla.novell.com/ see the same level of activity as Gentoo's?
I imagine that a lot of the grumpy devs would probably do well just
sitting in the background and coding.

Those are my musings..

Dustin

P.S. I should add that the amd64 group does not seem to share these
difficutlies -- this list is sometimes irreverent, but never insulting.
-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-amd64] Re:

[Duncan]

"Dustin J. Mitchell" <dustin@v.igoro.us> posted
20070706152051.GA25052@v.igoro.us, excerpted below, on  Fri, 06 Jul 2007
10:20:51 -0500:

> Well, keep in mind that I run in what is probably a slightly different
> circle -- server admins.
> 
> Gentoo has a *lot* to recommend it technically for administering a
> server -- fine-grained control, careful management of the upgrade path,
> transparency, extensibility, etc.
> 
> But the cultural shift is painful when folks like me try to interact
> with the Gentoo user or developer community.  I think I'm a fairly
> technically adept person (hey, I passed the ebuild quiz), yet several of
> my bugs have been blown off fairly rudely, by developers who had
> obviously not read the entire bug.  Of course, interactions on IRC are
> even worse.
> 
> The result is that I don't file bugs anymore -- I make a fixed local
> copy of the ebuild and call it a day.  Since I can't recommend that my
> clients and employers do the same, I set them up with a RedHat-derived
> base system and then hand-compile the necessary software on top of that.

I'm not a server admin and not dev, but I hang out on the dev group/list 
(group thru gmane), in large part because that's one thing I can do to 
get a heads-up on stuff coming down the pike before it affects me.  I'm 
also tech literate enough to generally understand development principles, 
but have only done bash scripts (with kdialog on occasion) on Linux, and 
VB back before MS decided they didn't want customers that actually cared 
about their privacy any more and forced me to jump to Linux. (Yes, I owe 
MS a bit of the credit for one of the best moves I ever made, OFF of MS! 
=8^P )  Maybe someday I'll be a dev, but it's slow going learning the 
stuff as a hobby, on one's own.

Anyway, so I hang out on the dev list.  Having done so since I switched 
from Mandrake (with Gentoo release 2004.1), I've been around awhile.  You 
think they're rough on you, try the dev list!  They are equally as rough 
on each other!

Basically what it comes down to is that people have to develop much 
thicker skins.  I had to.  It took awhile and I still believe things 
could be far better if people would just be a bit more tolerant, and read 
things in the light most favorable to the other guy instead of the least, 
particularly when there are cultural and language differences thrown in 
as well.

So yeah, don't take the rudeness personally.  If you can, learn to live 
with it.  Reopen the bug if need be, asking why it got closed without 
even being fully read.  Keep in mind "invalid" doesn't mean what it might 
look like, they /think/ the bug's invalid, but they aren't really calling 
you a know-nothing.  (Yes, I've had the invalid thing happen too, and it 
bothered me greatly at first.)  Sometimes you may have to jump thru a few 
hoops that you don't believe are necessary, but if it gets the bug 
fixed...  Not trying to name names, but in particular, bug wranglers is a 
tough job, and sometimes they get pretty cranky and even the devs think 
they've gone too far on occasion.

One thing I had occasion to learn, that I've observed many tech oriented 
folks haven't.  For years I was used to being the guru.  Then I joined an 
ISP (and the ISP's newsgroups) where there was a VERY high level of 
expertise, one guy was one of about 12 with full commit rights to one of 
the BSDs (I'm a Linux guy so don't remember which one), and they ALL (or 
it seemed that way) ran big web and mail servers and the like.  I was to 
them the newbie tech illiterate they had to explain things to, much as I 
was used to explaining things to others.

Well, let's just say I learned to shutup and listen pretty fast, and to 
qualify my statements much more accurately or cite references when I 
could.

That's an experience I've decided every tech oriented person needs to 
have.  It's REALLY an eye opening and humbling experience.  Unfortunately 
not so many get it.

Another thing is that many of these devs are still in school, college, 
even high school.  They're immature and their blood runs hot.  They may 
know their stuff decently well, but they don't have the perspective of 
years and it shows.  They may know their stuff, but they don't always 
know what they /don't/ know.

So anyway, yeah, I've learned to have a /much/ thicker skin.  I 
personally try to always be respectful and give the other guy the benefit 
of the doubt, but I know that's not the rules everybody plays by now, and 
if I have a point to make or a bug I want fixed, I'm a bit more insistent 
on it now.  Sometimes I shutup for awhile, but following the dev list, in 
a few months, there's often an excuse to point it out and effectively 
appeal the decision.  I've had several bugs eventually fixed with 
variances on the theme, and in fact just got a bug reopened that someone 
else had filed as well, that I stumbled upon myself.  (In this case it 
was a gcc-4.2.0 related bug, filed while that version was still masked.  
An announcement on the dev list just said they intend to unmask 4.2.0 to 
~arch in a few days, so it's time to reopen the bug and get it fixed.  I 
mentioned it as a reply to the announcement, and low and behold, less 
than an hour later, reopened it was, and reassigned to toolchain, with 
amd64 in the cc as it was amd64 -fPIC related too.)

Now you may or may not be willing to hassle all that, it's up to you.  If 
you can develop the thick skin, tho, and with a bit of patience, you can 
get some of those bugs fixed.

OTOH, even if you can develop a thick skin, it's still not something you 
can really recommend to others.  That remains true.  Maybe someday, but 
not ATM.  So with RH/Debian/whatever I'd recommend they stick too.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re:

[Beso]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 8337 bytes --]

2007/7/6, Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net>:
>
> "Dustin J. Mitchell" <dustin@v.igoro.us> posted
> 20070706152051.GA25052@v.igoro.us, excerpted below, on  Fri, 06 Jul 2007
> 10:20:51 -0500:
>
> > Well, keep in mind that I run in what is probably a slightly different
> > circle -- server admins.
> >
> > Gentoo has a *lot* to recommend it technically for administering a
> > server -- fine-grained control, careful management of the upgrade path,
> > transparency, extensibility, etc.
> >
> > But the cultural shift is painful when folks like me try to interact
> > with the Gentoo user or developer community.  I think I'm a fairly
> > technically adept person (hey, I passed the ebuild quiz), yet several of
> > my bugs have been blown off fairly rudely, by developers who had
> > obviously not read the entire bug.  Of course, interactions on IRC are
> > even worse.
> >
> > The result is that I don't file bugs anymore -- I make a fixed local
> > copy of the ebuild and call it a day.  Since I can't recommend that my
> > clients and employers do the same, I set them up with a RedHat-derived
> > base system and then hand-compile the necessary software on top of that.
>
> I'm not a server admin and not dev, but I hang out on the dev group/list
> (group thru gmane), in large part because that's one thing I can do to
> get a heads-up on stuff coming down the pike before it affects me.  I'm
> also tech literate enough to generally understand development principles,
> but have only done bash scripts (with kdialog on occasion) on Linux, and
> VB back before MS decided they didn't want customers that actually cared
> about their privacy any more and forced me to jump to Linux. (Yes, I owe
> MS a bit of the credit for one of the best moves I ever made, OFF of MS!
> =8^P )  Maybe someday I'll be a dev, but it's slow going learning the
> stuff as a hobby, on one's own.
>
> Anyway, so I hang out on the dev list.  Having done so since I switched
> from Mandrake (with Gentoo release 2004.1), I've been around awhile.  You
> think they're rough on you, try the dev list!  They are equally as rough
> on each other!
>
> Basically what it comes down to is that people have to develop much
> thicker skins.  I had to.  It took awhile and I still believe things
> could be far better if people would just be a bit more tolerant, and read
> things in the light most favorable to the other guy instead of the least,
> particularly when there are cultural and language differences thrown in
> as well.
>
> So yeah, don't take the rudeness personally.  If you can, learn to live
> with it.  Reopen the bug if need be, asking why it got closed without
> even being fully read.  Keep in mind "invalid" doesn't mean what it might
> look like, they /think/ the bug's invalid, but they aren't really calling
> you a know-nothing.  (Yes, I've had the invalid thing happen too, and it
> bothered me greatly at first.)  Sometimes you may have to jump thru a few
> hoops that you don't believe are necessary, but if it gets the bug
> fixed...  Not trying to name names, but in particular, bug wranglers is a
> tough job, and sometimes they get pretty cranky and even the devs think
> they've gone too far on occasion.
>
> One thing I had occasion to learn, that I've observed many tech oriented
> folks haven't.  For years I was used to being the guru.  Then I joined an
> ISP (and the ISP's newsgroups) where there was a VERY high level of
> expertise, one guy was one of about 12 with full commit rights to one of
> the BSDs (I'm a Linux guy so don't remember which one), and they ALL (or
> it seemed that way) ran big web and mail servers and the like.  I was to
> them the newbie tech illiterate they had to explain things to, much as I
> was used to explaining things to others.
>
> Well, let's just say I learned to shutup and listen pretty fast, and to
> qualify my statements much more accurately or cite references when I
> could.
>
> That's an experience I've decided every tech oriented person needs to
> have.  It's REALLY an eye opening and humbling experience.  Unfortunately
> not so many get it.
>
> Another thing is that many of these devs are still in school, college,
> even high school.  They're immature and their blood runs hot.  They may
> know their stuff decently well, but they don't have the perspective of
> years and it shows.  They may know their stuff, but they don't always
> know what they /don't/ know.
>
> So anyway, yeah, I've learned to have a /much/ thicker skin.  I
> personally try to always be respectful and give the other guy the benefit
> of the doubt, but I know that's not the rules everybody plays by now, and
> if I have a point to make or a bug I want fixed, I'm a bit more insistent
> on it now.  Sometimes I shutup for awhile, but following the dev list, in
> a few months, there's often an excuse to point it out and effectively
> appeal the decision.  I've had several bugs eventually fixed with
> variances on the theme, and in fact just got a bug reopened that someone
> else had filed as well, that I stumbled upon myself.  (In this case it
> was a gcc-4.2.0 related bug, filed while that version was still masked.
> An announcement on the dev list just said they intend to unmask 4.2.0 to
> ~arch in a few days, so it's time to reopen the bug and get it fixed.  I
> mentioned it as a reply to the announcement, and low and behold, less
> than an hour later, reopened it was, and reassigned to toolchain, with
> amd64 in the cc as it was amd64 -fPIC related too.)
>
> Now you may or may not be willing to hassle all that, it's up to you.  If
> you can develop the thick skin, tho, and with a bit of patience, you can
> get some of those bugs fixed.
>
> OTOH, even if you can develop a thick skin, it's still not something you
> can really recommend to others.  That remains true.  Maybe someday, but
> not ATM.  So with RH/Debian/whatever I'd recommend they stick too.
>
> --
> Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
> "Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
> and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman
>
> --
> gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
>
> i can understand that they are pretty pissed off with bugs that cannot be
reproduced but if you mismatch the place of some bug, they should
automatically switch it to the right place, as the people do on other
bugzillas.... if they cannot control themselves, maybe it would be good if
they would have some people that only do the mediation between them and
users....
another great disappointment is that sabayon problems wich regard ebuilds in
the gentoo general tree are encouraged to be unanswered by users.... i think
that this is not a good choice.... take kubuntu/ubuntu/edubuntu - you can
try to mix the 3 versions without any problems (and i know that cause i used
to use a very tainted kubuntu with also fedora and suse packages).... i
don't really understand why problems with packages of sabayon (which is a
dev branch of gentoo in the end) that are installed from the official gentoo
repo cannot be questioned on the official gentoo forum.... right now i'm
downloading the sabayon dvd to try it and see what are the changes inside
and i'm currently using some stuff from their repo (which didn't installed
from official repo) as ati-drivers (which in some way are more stable and
with which i can run beryl, while with the official gentoo released ones i
cannot).... another very important question is why the gentoo branch doesn't
pass on to paludis, which is really,really,really greater when compared with
portage (at least for dep resolving which is about 40 to 50%).... an example
is that paludis has found some packages that are installed on my system
without any reference.... these were installed by portage and when i've
removed them i didn't have any problems using my apps.... i cannot do any
more without it and only have installed portage because some gentoolkit
tools are still emerge based as the.... the last thing is why continuing to
use etc-update when you have dispatch-config that is 1000000000000000 time
better than the etc-update idiot output?!?! i really think that gentoo has
lost its innovation character which was its racial trait when it was
born.... that's why i've decided to have a look at sabayon, which seems to
embody these traits....


-- 
beso

d-_-b

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 9583 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-amd64]

[Beso]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3139 bytes --]

2007/7/6, Dustin J. Mitchell <dustin@v.igoro.us>:
>
> On Fri, Jul 06, 2007 at 09:02:05AM -0400, B. Nice wrote:
> > > I also feel a little guilty that my only contribution as an AT is to
> > > make fun of people trying to unsubscribe from the list.  It's not
> > > exactly productive, and only serves to reinforce the bad rep that
> Gentoo
> > > has.
> > Where do people get the idea that Gentoo has a bad reputation?  I've
>
> Well, keep in mind that I run in what is probably a slightly different
> circle -- server admins.
>
> Gentoo has a *lot* to recommend it technically for administering a
> server -- fine-grained control, careful management of the upgrade path,
> transparency, extensibility, etc.
>
> But the cultural shift is painful when folks like me try to interact
> with the Gentoo user or developer community.  I think I'm a fairly
> technically adept person (hey, I passed the ebuild quiz), yet several of
> my bugs have been blown off fairly rudely, by developers who had
> obviously not read the entire bug.  Of course, interactions on IRC are
> even worse.


this is the thing that i hate.... if you get a bug you should test if it
will come when you have the entire system from the stable branch and see if
it happens also there....

The result is that I don't file bugs anymore -- I make a fixed local
> copy of the ebuild and call it a day.  Since I can't recommend that my
> clients and employers do the same, I set them up with a RedHat-derived
> base system and then hand-compile the necessary software on top of that.
>
> By way of comparison, problems I have had with specific pieces of
> business-critical software (vs. with the distro) have been handled with
> professionalism and dignity.
>
> Maybe the problem is that Gentoo devs are *too* accessible, and aren't
> really given a choice in the matter.  Does e.g.,
> https://bugzilla.novell.com/ see the same level of activity as Gentoo's?
> I imagine that a lot of the grumpy devs would probably do well just
> sitting in the background and coding.


the novell bugzilla has not very much activity because the commercial
version has paid support and because novell commercial systems are pretty
good in terms of bugs.... ok, they are a little backward with the software
versioning, but their commercial versions are really great pieces of
stability.... for what i have experienced by using for quite some time suse
and opensuse lately, that distribution is the best fast install and use
linux distro existing.... and then there is gentoo that is very good for
tuning your pc.... all the others that i've tryied (from fedora, to
archlinux, to ubuntu, kubuntu, debian and others) suck!!!! if you want a
quick install linux distro with great support and lot of features get
opensuse, and if you want a great personal machine optimized linux distro
get gentoo or sabayon (the last one i'll have to try it out)....

Those are my musings..
>
> Dustin
>
> P.S. I should add that the amd64 group does not seem to share these
> difficutlies -- this list is sometimes irreverent, but never insulting.
> --
> gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>


-- 
beso

d-_-b

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3996 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-amd64]

[Gavin Seddon]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2429 bytes --]

Dustin J. Mitchell wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 06, 2007 at 09:02:05AM -0400, B. Nice wrote:
>>> I also feel a little guilty that my only contribution as an AT is to
>>> make fun of people trying to unsubscribe from the list.  It's not
>>> exactly productive, and only serves to reinforce the bad rep that Gentoo
>>> has.
>> Where do people get the idea that Gentoo has a bad reputation?  I've
> 
> Well, keep in mind that I run in what is probably a slightly different
> circle -- server admins.
> 
> Gentoo has a *lot* to recommend it technically for administering a
> server -- fine-grained control, careful management of the upgrade path,
> transparency, extensibility, etc.
> 
> But the cultural shift is painful when folks like me try to interact
> with the Gentoo user or developer community.  I think I'm a fairly
> technically adept person (hey, I passed the ebuild quiz), yet several of
> my bugs have been blown off fairly rudely, by developers who had
> obviously not read the entire bug.  Of course, interactions on IRC are
> even worse.  
> 
> The result is that I don't file bugs anymore -- I make a fixed local
> copy of the ebuild and call it a day.  Since I can't recommend that my
> clients and employers do the same, I set them up with a RedHat-derived
> base system and then hand-compile the necessary software on top of that.
> 
> By way of comparison, problems I have had with specific pieces of
> business-critical software (vs. with the distro) have been handled with
> professionalism and dignity.
> 
> Maybe the problem is that Gentoo devs are *too* accessible, and aren't
> really given a choice in the matter.  Does e.g.,
> https://bugzilla.novell.com/ see the same level of activity as Gentoo's?
> I imagine that a lot of the grumpy devs would probably do well just
> sitting in the background and coding.
> 
> Those are my musings..
> 
> Dustin
> 
> P.S. I should add that the amd64 group does not seem to share these
> difficutlies -- this list is sometimes irreverent, but never insulting.
Hi,
I have opened this thread by accident, pls excuse if I'm butting in.  I 
now have Gentoo running on alpha, x86, the laptop, amd64 and soon to be 
mips.  I subscribe to all lists tho' I rarely post..


When I first started a few years ago coming from Debian, the users where 
very helpful but I to was intimidated with some kirt remarks.  I think 
one should remember gentoo can be an intimidating system
Gavin

[-- Attachment #2: gavin.m.seddon.vcf --]
[-- Type: text/x-vcard, Size: 295 bytes --]

begin:vcard
fn:Dr Gavin Seddon
org:University of Manchester;Pharmacy and Pharmaceutical Sciences
adr:;;Oxford road;Manchester;;M13 9PL;UK
email;internet:gavin.m.seddon@manchester.ac.uk
title:Dr Gavin Seddon
tel;work:0161 702 9945
tel;cell:07710430455
x-mozilla-html:FALSE
version:2.1
end:vcard

[gentoo-amd64] Re:

[Duncan]

Gavin Seddon <gavin.m.seddon@manchester.ac.uk> posted
46919C4F.8000109@manchester.ac.uk, excerpted below, on  Mon, 09 Jul 2007
03:24:15 +0100:

> I have opened this thread by accident, pls excuse if I'm butting in.  I
> now have Gentoo running on alpha, x86, the laptop, amd64 and soon to be
> mips.  I subscribe to all lists tho' I rarely post..
> 
> When I first started a few years ago coming from Debian, the users where
> very helpful but I to was intimidated with some kirt remarks.  I think
> one should remember gentoo can be an intimidating system

Glad to see you back! =8^)  I had been hoping you hadn't been driven away 
due to some of the replies I saw to you... then didn't see you around any 
more, so I'm glad to see you posting again. =8^)

Me?  My most potentially rude replies are generally to the folks who post 
in HTML, which is IMO a security issue when it appears in mail or news, 
and to a lessor extent those who continually top post.  Still, I tend to 
answer the question along with my request to quit the netiquette 
violations, and only kill file those who continue them, repeatedly and 
consistently.  I figure it's my reply, if they don't like me reminding 
them of netiquette along with my answer to their question, they can just 
killfile me, as I'll likely killfile them if they continue the netiquette 
violations.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-amd64] RE:

[gentoo]

After you try Penis Enlarge Patch you can use your penis like a ladder.

http://www.hoduk.hk/?vlaflfofnkfsd


-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list