[gentoo-amd64] Re: Re: modules

[gentoo-amd64] Re: Re: modules

[Duncan]

Sebastian Redl posted <436BBEE8.1070303@getdesigned.at>, excerpted below, 
on Fri, 04 Nov 2005 21:04:56 +0100:

> Duncan wrote:
> 
>>You don't need to load /any/ modules at boot, if you compile everything
>>you'd normally load at boot and never unload, into the kernel itself,
>>instead of as modules.
>>  
>>
> The single exception here are binary-only modules, usually proprietary 
> drivers. The ATI graphics driver fglrx comes to mind.

True, except that you shouldn't need to load it /at/ /boot/ either, only
when you run X.  The rest of the time the normal kernel console video
driver should be fine.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman in
http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/pub/a/linux/2004/12/22/rms_interview.html


-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: modules

[Dmitri Pogosyan]

> On Fri, 4 Nov 2005, Duncan wrote: 
>  
> > DR GM SEDDON posted <436B56B2.10106@manchester.ac.uk>, excerpted below, 
> > on Fri, 04 Nov 2005 12:40:18 +0000: 
> > 
> >> Hi, 
> >> I was wondering.  What modules do I need installed at boot? 
> > 
> > Other than that, I learned what I needed pretty much by going thru 
> > the entire kernel config and turning on what I KNEW I needed, then 
> > using trial and error on everything else, trying without it to see if 
> > everything still worked and didn't complain, going back and turning it 
> > back on if I found I needed it.... 
>  
> This is why I miss RedHat.  I don't want to spend my time customizing 
> a kernel then spending more time with trial and error getting just the 
> kernel I need.  RedHat has a system in place that installs a minimal 
> kernal and then loads almost everything else as modules.  Genkernel almost 
> does what I want but it is always a struggle.  The base system always 
> loads all the different disk drivers and does not unload the unused ones. 
 
Absence of autounloading is not a property of gentoo, but of recent kernels.  
Somewhere along Linux people decided that unloading unused modules is not 
that useful :( 
 
Am I right, actually ? 
 
 
 
> Is anyone working on a more RedHat like kernel/modules/runtime loading 
> system?  It would eliminate the problem the original poster had and save 
> lots of time for the rest of us. 
>  
> Thanks, 
>  
> Steve Herber	herber@thing.com		work: 206-221-7262 
> Security Engineer, UW Medicine, IT Services	home: 425-454-2399 
> --  
> gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list 
 
 
 
-- 
Dmitri Pogosyan            Department of Physics 
Associate Professor        University of Alberta 
tel 1-780-492-2150         412 Avadh Bhatia Physics Labs 
fax 1-780-492-0714         Edmonton, AB, T6G 2J1, CANADA 
 
 
-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: modules

[Nuitari]

>> This is why I miss RedHat.  I don't want to spend my time customizing
>> a kernel then spending more time with trial and error getting just the
>> kernel I need.  RedHat has a system in place that installs a minimal
>> kernal and then loads almost everything else as modules.  Genkernel almost
>> does what I want but it is always a struggle.  The base system always
>> loads all the different disk drivers and does not unload the unused ones.
>
> Absence of autounloading is not a property of gentoo, but of recent kernels.
> Somewhere along Linux people decided that unloading unused modules is not
> that useful :(
>
> Am I right, actually ?

I really don't see the point of going to that much trouble to save a few 
Kbs of RAM

-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: Re: modules

[Ian Hastie]

On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 13:35:19 -0700
Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> wrote:

> Sebastian Redl posted <436BBEE8.1070303@getdesigned.at>, excerpted
> below, on Fri, 04 Nov 2005 21:04:56 +0100:
> 
> > Duncan wrote:
> > 
> >>You don't need to load /any/ modules at boot, if you compile
> >>everything you'd normally load at boot and never unload, into the
> >>kernel itself, instead of as modules.
> >>  
> >>
> > The single exception here are binary-only modules, usually
> > proprietary drivers. The ATI graphics driver fglrx comes to mind.
> 
> True, except that you shouldn't need to load it /at/ /boot/ either,
> only when you run X.  The rest of the time the normal kernel console
> video driver should be fine.

Which is true unless you run a display manager and log in through
that.  The only hard and fast rule of Linux is that there are no hard
and fast rules.

-- 
Ian.

EOM
-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: modules

[Ian Hastie]

On Fri, 4 Nov 2005 15:55:36 -0700
"Dmitri Pogosyan" <pogosyan@phys.ualberta.ca> wrote:

> Absence of autounloading is not a property of gentoo, but of recent
> kernels. Somewhere along Linux people decided that unloading unused
> modules is not that useful :( 
>  
> Am I right, actually ?

As I remember it was decided that it could be dangerous to allow
module unloading.  The main problem was that of potential for race
conditions.  For example a programme might be using a device when
another one unloaded it.  Usage counts were meant to prevent this, but
were considered unreliable.  As a result the ability to unload modules
is now a configurable option in the kernel, along with forced unloading.

-- 
Ian.

EOM
-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-amd64] Re: Re: modules

[Duncan]

Steve Herber posted <Pine.LNX.4.64.0511041314570.1239@thing.com>,
excerpted below,  on Fri, 04 Nov 2005 13:25:20 -0800:

> This is why I miss RedHat.  I don't want to spend my time customizing
> a kernel then spending more time with trial and error getting just the
> kernel I need.  RedHat has a system in place that installs a minimal
> kernal and then loads almost everything else as modules.  Genkernel almost
> does what I want but it is always a struggle.  The base system always
> loads all the different disk drivers and does not unload the unused ones.
> Is anyone working on a more RedHat like kernel/modules/runtime loading
> system?  It would eliminate the problem the original poster had and save
> lots of time for the rest of us.

If you don't want to spend your time customizing, why in tarnation did you
choose /Gentoo/, of /all/ distributions?  Customization is  practically
Gentoo's middle name, the reason we spend all that time compiling from
source and etc.

Red Hat and their method of pigeonholing everybody into convenient
categories, the better to provide binaries for them... I think you'll find
very few Gentoo developers interested in going that route... or they'd not
be Gentoo developers, and would be spending their time on some other
distribution (Debian's the closest in spirit to Gentoo that does binaries
by default).

Not to be unwelcoming, but honestly, if you're missing that sort of
top-down other-people controlling your machine for you environment, than
Gentoo is very likely the wrong distribution for you!  There are others
that provide that sort of thing far better than Gentoo, which is pretty
much the antitypical distribution, if that's what you are looking for.

OTOH...  Gentoo users are system-admins, and that's what it expects them
to be -- ready to take responsibility and control over their own machines.
While it's certainly possible for someone to take pretty much the
genkernel defaults, and have an acceptable system, part of becoming a
mature Gentoo user (that is, a mature sysadmin on a system running Gentoo
Linux) is learning the ins and outs of kernel customization, to the degree
you want to customize it.  If you are comfortable with it remaining as is,
that's fine, but the ability and tools are there to become familiar with
your system, and customize the kernel, as well as everything else, to the
degree of lean mean computing machine, you desire.

I sincerely hope you do not take this wrong, but your comment did hit a
nerve, as I'm sure you can tell, by now.  =8^/

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman in
http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/pub/a/linux/2004/12/22/rms_interview.html


-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-amd64] Re: Re: modules

[Duncan]

Nuitari posted <Pine.LNX.4.64.0511041904550.4212@melchior.nuitari.net>,
excerpted below,  on Fri, 04 Nov 2005 19:05:39 -0500:

>> Absence of autounloading is not a property of gentoo, but of recent kernels.
>> Somewhere along Linux people decided that unloading unused modules is not
>> that useful :(
>>
>> Am I right, actually ?
> 
> I really don't see the point of going to that much trouble to save a few 
> Kbs of RAM

Ian described the kernel hackers' achieved conclusion quite accurately in
the other subthread -- module unloading wasn't seen as the route to the
most stable kernel possible, so it was deemphasized and made optional.

However, to directly comment on your reply...  yes, those few KB of RAM
/do/ matter, to many.  Consider that kernel memory is by definition
/locked/ memory -- it can never be swapped out.  On a system with uptime
into the weeks and months, not unusual at all for Linux, if you only fire
up the CD/DVD drive every couple weeks (to use a personal example that I
mentioned earlier in the thread), and that driver remains loaded all the
REST of the time as well, that's expensive space in non-swappable physical
memory that /could/ be used for (most likely) cache memory, otherwise. 
Memory is expensive, and I prefer mine doesn't sit around doing nothing,
when it can be put to better use, increasing the performance of even a
couple lookups a day that might otherwise have been flushed out of
physical memory.  It's not much, but I'd rather have it than not, since
I've paid for the memory and otherwise it's just sitting there inactive.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman in
http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/pub/a/linux/2004/12/22/rms_interview.html


-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: Re: modules

[Paul de Vrieze]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 616 bytes --]

On Saturday 05 November 2005 03:12, Ian Hastie wrote:
> On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 13:35:19 -0700
> Which is true unless you run a display manager and log in through
> that.  The only hard and fast rule of Linux is that there are no hard
> and fast rules.

The load time of the display manager is last in the boot sequence. In that 
it is actually not that different from duncan's view. Of course without 
the graphics module you cannot actually use the binary driver. In that 
sense it must be present.

Paul

-- 
Paul de Vrieze
Gentoo Developer
Mail: pauldv@gentoo.org
Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --]