[gentoo-amd64] KDE and kdeprefix

[gentoo-amd64] KDE and kdeprefix

[Mark Haney]

Barring the somewhat humorous ending to this warning from my latest
updates to KDE, I'm a little concerned by the import of the message.
Can someone enlighten me?


 * WARNING! You have kdeprefix useflag enabled.
 * This setting is strongly discouraged and might lead to potential troubles
 * with KDE update strategies.
 * You are using this setup at your own risk and kde team does not
 * take responsibilities for dead kittens.


What update strategies are being considered that would break by using
this?  And was this a KDE message directly?  Or is this a warning from
the Gentoo KDE devs?

-- 
Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

Mark Haney
Sr. Systems Administrator
ERC Broadband
(828) 350-2415

Re: [gentoo-amd64] KDE and kdeprefix

[Markos Chandras]

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> Barring the somewhat humorous ending to this warning from my latest
> updates to KDE, I'm a little concerned by the import of the message.
> Can someone enlighten me?
>
>
>  * WARNING! You have kdeprefix useflag enabled.
>  * This setting is strongly discouraged and might lead to potential
> troubles * with KDE update strategies.
>  * You are using this setup at your own risk and kde team does not
>  * take responsibilities for dead kittens.
>
>
> What update strategies are being considered that would break by using
> this?  And was this a KDE message directly?  Or is this a warning from
> the Gentoo KDE devs?
This is a warning message from Gentoo KDE devs . kdeprefix is a gentoo thingie 
and it not supported by official KDE upstream. Thus I might not work that well. 
It is only advised to use it if you want to have kde:4.2 and :live together. 
I would recommend to disable it globally and run emerge -uDN world
-- 
Markos Chandras (hwoarang)
Gentoo Linux Developer [KDE/Qt/Sunrise/Sound]
Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org

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Re: [gentoo-amd64] KDE and kdeprefix

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Donnerstag 11 Juni 2009, Markos Chandras wrote:
> > Barring the somewhat humorous ending to this warning from my latest
> > updates to KDE, I'm a little concerned by the import of the message.
> > Can someone enlighten me?
> >
> >
> >  * WARNING! You have kdeprefix useflag enabled.
> >  * This setting is strongly discouraged and might lead to potential
> > troubles * with KDE update strategies.
> >  * You are using this setup at your own risk and kde team does not
> >  * take responsibilities for dead kittens.
> >
> >
> > What update strategies are being considered that would break by using
> > this?  And was this a KDE message directly?  Or is this a warning from
> > the Gentoo KDE devs?
>
> This is a warning message from Gentoo KDE devs . kdeprefix is a gentoo
> thingie and it not supported by official KDE upstream. Thus I might not
> work that well. It is only advised to use it if you want to have kde:4.2
> and :live together. I would recommend to disable it globally and run emerge
> -uDN world

and I wouldn't touch it and ignore the message.

kde has a long history of not installing into /usr directly - and that was 
always a good thing.

Re: [gentoo-amd64] KDE and kdeprefix

[Markos Chandras]

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> On Donnerstag 11 Juni 2009, Markos Chandras wrote:
> > > Barring the somewhat humorous ending to this warning from my latest
> > > updates to KDE, I'm a little concerned by the import of the message.
> > > Can someone enlighten me?
> > >
> > >
> > >  * WARNING! You have kdeprefix useflag enabled.
> > >  * This setting is strongly discouraged and might lead to potential
> > > troubles * with KDE update strategies.
> > >  * You are using this setup at your own risk and kde team does not
> > >  * take responsibilities for dead kittens.
> > >
> > >
> > > What update strategies are being considered that would break by using
> > > this?  And was this a KDE message directly?  Or is this a warning from
> > > the Gentoo KDE devs?
> >
> > This is a warning message from Gentoo KDE devs . kdeprefix is a gentoo
> > thingie and it not supported by official KDE upstream. Thus I might not
> > work that well. It is only advised to use it if you want to have kde:4.2
> > and :live together. I would recommend to disable it globally and run
> > emerge -uDN world
>
> and I wouldn't touch it and ignore the message.
>
> kde has a long history of not installing into /usr directly - and that was
> always a good thing.
The message exists there for a reason. It is up to the user whether he ignores 
it or not. As a member of Gentoo KDE team I would advice him to drop kdeprefix
-- 
Markos Chandras (hwoarang)
Gentoo Linux Developer [KDE/Qt/Sunrise/Sound]
Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org

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Re: [gentoo-amd64] KDE and kdeprefix

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Donnerstag 11 Juni 2009, Markos Chandras wrote:
> > On Donnerstag 11 Juni 2009, Markos Chandras wrote:
> > > > Barring the somewhat humorous ending to this warning from my latest
> > > > updates to KDE, I'm a little concerned by the import of the message.
> > > > Can someone enlighten me?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  * WARNING! You have kdeprefix useflag enabled.
> > > >  * This setting is strongly discouraged and might lead to potential
> > > > troubles * with KDE update strategies.
> > > >  * You are using this setup at your own risk and kde team does not
> > > >  * take responsibilities for dead kittens.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > What update strategies are being considered that would break by using
> > > > this?  And was this a KDE message directly?  Or is this a warning
> > > > from the Gentoo KDE devs?
> > >
> > > This is a warning message from Gentoo KDE devs . kdeprefix is a gentoo
> > > thingie and it not supported by official KDE upstream. Thus I might not
> > > work that well. It is only advised to use it if you want to have
> > > kde:4.2 and :live together. I would recommend to disable it globally
> > > and run emerge -uDN world
> >
> > and I wouldn't touch it and ignore the message.
> >
> > kde has a long history of not installing into /usr directly - and that
> > was always a good thing.
>
> The message exists there for a reason. It is up to the user whether he
> ignores it or not. As a member of Gentoo KDE team I would advice him to
> drop kdeprefix

why? to make it harder to clean up after a mess? so that future kde versions 
trip over each other? 

Re: [gentoo-amd64] KDE and kdeprefix

[Markos Chandras]

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> On Donnerstag 11 Juni 2009, Markos Chandras wrote:
> > > On Donnerstag 11 Juni 2009, Markos Chandras wrote:
> > > > > Barring the somewhat humorous ending to this warning from my latest
> > > > > updates to KDE, I'm a little concerned by the import of the
> > > > > message. Can someone enlighten me?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >  * WARNING! You have kdeprefix useflag enabled.
> > > > >  * This setting is strongly discouraged and might lead to potential
> > > > > troubles * with KDE update strategies.
> > > > >  * You are using this setup at your own risk and kde team does not
> > > > >  * take responsibilities for dead kittens.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > What update strategies are being considered that would break by
> > > > > using this?  And was this a KDE message directly?  Or is this a
> > > > > warning from the Gentoo KDE devs?
> > > >
> > > > This is a warning message from Gentoo KDE devs . kdeprefix is a
> > > > gentoo thingie and it not supported by official KDE upstream. Thus I
> > > > might not work that well. It is only advised to use it if you want to
> > > > have kde:4.2 and :live together. I would recommend to disable it
> > > > globally and run emerge -uDN world
> > >
> > > and I wouldn't touch it and ignore the message.
> > >
> > > kde has a long history of not installing into /usr directly - and that
> > > was always a good thing.
> >
> > The message exists there for a reason. It is up to the user whether he
> > ignores it or not. As a member of Gentoo KDE team I would advice him to
> > drop kdeprefix
>
> why? to make it harder to clean up after a mess? so that future kde
> versions trip over each other?
Mess? Ok. I wont argue. He know his options and he can make his choices
-- 
Markos Chandras (hwoarang)
Gentoo Linux Developer [KDE/Qt/Sunrise/Sound]
Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org

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Re: [gentoo-amd64] KDE and kdeprefix

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Donnerstag 11 Juni 2009, Markos Chandras wrote:
> > On Donnerstag 11 Juni 2009, Markos Chandras wrote:
> > > > On Donnerstag 11 Juni 2009, Markos Chandras wrote:
> > > > > > Barring the somewhat humorous ending to this warning from my
> > > > > > latest updates to KDE, I'm a little concerned by the import of
> > > > > > the message. Can someone enlighten me?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  * WARNING! You have kdeprefix useflag enabled.
> > > > > >  * This setting is strongly discouraged and might lead to
> > > > > > potential troubles * with KDE update strategies.
> > > > > >  * You are using this setup at your own risk and kde team does
> > > > > > not * take responsibilities for dead kittens.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What update strategies are being considered that would break by
> > > > > > using this?  And was this a KDE message directly?  Or is this a
> > > > > > warning from the Gentoo KDE devs?
> > > > >
> > > > > This is a warning message from Gentoo KDE devs . kdeprefix is a
> > > > > gentoo thingie and it not supported by official KDE upstream. Thus
> > > > > I might not work that well. It is only advised to use it if you
> > > > > want to have kde:4.2 and :live together. I would recommend to
> > > > > disable it globally and run emerge -uDN world
> > > >
> > > > and I wouldn't touch it and ignore the message.
> > > >
> > > > kde has a long history of not installing into /usr directly - and
> > > > that was always a good thing.
> > >
> > > The message exists there for a reason. It is up to the user whether he
> > > ignores it or not. As a member of Gentoo KDE team I would advice him to
> > > drop kdeprefix
> >
> > why? to make it harder to clean up after a mess? so that future kde
> > versions trip over each other?
>
> Mess? Ok. I wont argue. He know his options and he can make his choices

please explain me why this option is bad?

I can give you  examples why it is good:
-you can have multiple versions of kde installed (well, you could in the past, 
until someone started to put crap into python's directories).
and
- it makes updates risk free. You go from X.Y.Z to X.Y.Z+1 or X.Y+1 - and 
before you do so, you just copy the whole kde dir. In case of severe bugs (and 
especially with kde 3 you always had some nasty bugs), you just copy the 
directory back and can use kde in the hours portage needs to recompile stuff - 
or in the minutes it needs to install from packages (well, split ebuilds 
increased that time A LOT).

Re: [gentoo-amd64] KDE and kdeprefix

[Markos Chandras]

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> On Donnerstag 11 Juni 2009, Markos Chandras wrote:
> > > On Donnerstag 11 Juni 2009, Markos Chandras wrote:
> > > > > On Donnerstag 11 Juni 2009, Markos Chandras wrote:
> > > > > > > Barring the somewhat humorous ending to this warning from my
> > > > > > > latest updates to KDE, I'm a little concerned by the import of
> > > > > > > the message. Can someone enlighten me?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >  * WARNING! You have kdeprefix useflag enabled.
> > > > > > >  * This setting is strongly discouraged and might lead to
> > > > > > > potential troubles * with KDE update strategies.
> > > > > > >  * You are using this setup at your own risk and kde team does
> > > > > > > not * take responsibilities for dead kittens.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What update strategies are being considered that would break by
> > > > > > > using this?  And was this a KDE message directly?  Or is this a
> > > > > > > warning from the Gentoo KDE devs?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is a warning message from Gentoo KDE devs . kdeprefix is a
> > > > > > gentoo thingie and it not supported by official KDE upstream.
> > > > > > Thus I might not work that well. It is only advised to use it if
> > > > > > you want to have kde:4.2 and :live together. I would recommend to
> > > > > > disable it globally and run emerge -uDN world
> > > > >
> > > > > and I wouldn't touch it and ignore the message.
> > > > >
> > > > > kde has a long history of not installing into /usr directly - and
> > > > > that was always a good thing.
> > > >
> > > > The message exists there for a reason. It is up to the user whether
> > > > he ignores it or not. As a member of Gentoo KDE team I would advice
> > > > him to drop kdeprefix
> > >
> > > why? to make it harder to clean up after a mess? so that future kde
> > > versions trip over each other?
> >
> > Mess? Ok. I wont argue. He know his options and he can make his choices
>
> please explain me why this option is bad?
>
> I can give you  examples why it is good:
> -you can have multiple versions of kde installed (well, you could in the
> past, until someone started to put crap into python's directories).
> and
This operation is somehow broken at the this time and the official Gentoo KDE 
team words are "We don't encourage kdeprefix usage".
Since kde upstream doesnt support this prefix thingie, it is normal to 
encounter some breakages from time to time. For a sane system situation, -
kdeprefix is advised.
> - it makes updates risk free. You go from X.Y.Z to X.Y.Z+1 or X.Y+1 - and
> before you do so, you just copy the whole kde dir. In case of severe bugs
> (and especially with kde 3 you always had some nasty bugs), you just copy
> the directory back and can use kde in the hours portage needs to recompile
> stuff - or in the minutes it needs to install from packages (well, split
> ebuilds increased that time A LOT).
This operation is not a user friendly approach. Normally when you move from 
X.Y.Z -> X.Y.Z+1 , the bug number tend to decrease. But yes, if you want to 
have e.g. 4.2.3 and 4.2.4 at the same time, kdeprefix is the only way. But as I 
said kdeprefix leads to many side-effects that are not welcomed. So just for the 
record, as I said , kdeprefix usage is not encouraged :)
Anyway, each users has different needs so he can choose whether kdeprefix works 
for him or not
-- 
Markos Chandras (hwoarang)
Gentoo Linux Developer [KDE/Qt/Sunrise/Sound]
Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org

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[gentoo-amd64] Re: KDE and kdeprefix

[Nikos Chantziaras]

On 06/11/2009 11:07 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> I can give you  examples why it is good:
> -you can have multiple versions of kde installed

*If* you want multiple versions.


> - it makes updates risk free. You go from X.Y.Z to X.Y.Z+1 or X.Y+1 - and
> before you do so, you just copy the whole kde dir.

Why not just "quickpkg --include-config=y --include-unmodified-config=y" 
  all to-be-upgraded packages?  Looks just as safe to me.  In fact, I do 
this on a regular basis.

Re: [gentoo-amd64] KDE and kdeprefix

[Alex Alexander]

On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 23:07, Volker Armin
Hemmann<volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
> please explain me why this option is bad?
>
> I can give you  examples why it is good:
> -you can have multiple versions of kde installed (well, you could in the past,
> until someone started to put crap into python's directories).
> and

Its not that simple
KDE wasn't designed to work like this, kdeprefix is a Gentoo Thing
that is not supported by upstream.

Multiple issues can arise when using kdeprefix, things not working,
misc kde4 apps linking to wrong kde4 versions, etc.

If you know what you're doing (and how to fix stuff when it breaks ;)
kdeprefix can be useful. But its primarily meant for developers who
want to test newer kde versions. Most users should stick to -kdeprefix
which is widely tested and its upgrade path is cleaner and thoroughly
checked before each release.

> - it makes updates risk free. You go from X.Y.Z to X.Y.Z+1 or X.Y+1 - and
> before you do so, you just copy the whole kde dir. In case of severe bugs (and
> especially with kde 3 you always had some nasty bugs), you just copy the
> directory back and can use kde in the hours portage needs to recompile stuff -
> or in the minutes it needs to install from packages (well, split ebuilds
> increased that time A LOT).

imho its better to just keep binary packages of stuff you've installed.
if your update fails and you need your system asap, you just emerge
your binaries back in no time :) no cp'ing or other strange
out-of-portage stuff

--
Alex Alexander || wired
Gentoo QT && KDE Herd Tester
http://www.linuxized.com

Re: [gentoo-amd64] KDE and kdeprefix

[Sebastian Redl]

Alex Alexander wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 23:07, Volker Armin
> Hemmann<volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
>   
>> please explain me why this option is bad?
>>
>> I can give you  examples why it is good:
>> -you can have multiple versions of kde installed (well, you could in the past,
>> until someone started to put crap into python's directories).
>> and
>>     
>
> Its not that simple
> KDE wasn't designed to work like this, kdeprefix is a Gentoo Thing
> that is not supported by upstream.
>
> Multiple issues can arise when using kdeprefix, things not working,
> misc kde4 apps linking to wrong kde4 versions, etc.
>
> If you know what you're doing (and how to fix stuff when it breaks ;)
> kdeprefix can be useful. But its primarily meant for developers who
> want to test newer kde versions. Most users should stick to -kdeprefix
> which is widely tested and its upgrade path is cleaner and thoroughly
> checked before each release.
>   
Have the OpenOffice.org problems with -kdeprefix been fixed? When KDE4
entered the tree, you couldn't build OpenOffice unless you enabled
kdeprefix because it chose the KDE4 libs over the KDE3 libs.

Sebastian

Re: [gentoo-amd64] KDE and kdeprefix

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Freitag 12 Juni 2009, Alex Alexander wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 23:07, Volker Armin
>
> Hemmann<volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > please explain me why this option is bad?
> >
> > I can give you  examples why it is good:
> > -you can have multiple versions of kde installed (well, you could in the
> > past, until someone started to put crap into python's directories).
> > and
>
> Its not that simple
> KDE wasn't designed to work like this, kdeprefix is a Gentoo Thing
> that is not supported by upstream.

Do I need to remind you that kde's own documentation once said that you should 
install into /opt? into its own directory?
Maybe that changed, but the 'not designed for' is not correct.

>
> Multiple issues can arise when using kdeprefix, things not working,
> misc kde4 apps linking to wrong kde4 versions, etc.

and without prefix, you can not have multiple versions.
hmmm...


>
> If you know what you're doing (and how to fix stuff when it breaks ;)
> kdeprefix can be useful. But its primarily meant for developers who
> want to test newer kde versions. Most users should stick to -kdeprefix
> which is widely tested and its upgrade path is cleaner and thoroughly
> checked before each release.

I give you an example:
KDe 3.4 is installed, you want to try 3.5, you install it and switch when you 
are ready. After an hour you realize that 3.5.0 is very buggy, no problem, you 
just log in back to 3.4.
...
Now, tell me, is that usefull for users or not?
And until recently it was the default.

>
> imho its better to just keep binary packages of stuff you've installed.
> if your update fails and you need your system asap, you just emerge
> your binaries back in no time :) no cp'ing or other strange
> out-of-portage stuff

binary packages don't help you with your config changes or ither stuff you put 
into the tree.

Re: [gentoo-amd64] KDE and kdeprefix

[Mark Haney]

Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> On Freitag 12 Juni 2009, Alex Alexander wrote:
>> On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 23:07, Volker Armin
>>
>> Hemmann<volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>> please explain me why this option is bad?
>>>
>>> I can give you  examples why it is good:
>>> -you can have multiple versions of kde installed (well, you could in the
>>> past, until someone started to put crap into python's directories).
>>> and
>> Its not that simple
>> KDE wasn't designed to work like this, kdeprefix is a Gentoo Thing
>> that is not supported by upstream.
> 
> Do I need to remind you that kde's own documentation once said that you should 
> install into /opt? into its own directory?
> Maybe that changed, but the 'not designed for' is not correct.
> 
>> Multiple issues can arise when using kdeprefix, things not working,
>> misc kde4 apps linking to wrong kde4 versions, etc.
> 
> and without prefix, you can not have multiple versions.
> hmmm...
> 
> 
>> If you know what you're doing (and how to fix stuff when it breaks ;)
>> kdeprefix can be useful. But its primarily meant for developers who
>> want to test newer kde versions. Most users should stick to -kdeprefix
>> which is widely tested and its upgrade path is cleaner and thoroughly
>> checked before each release.
> 
> I give you an example:
> KDe 3.4 is installed, you want to try 3.5, you install it and switch when you 
> are ready. After an hour you realize that 3.5.0 is very buggy, no problem, you 
> just log in back to 3.4.
> ...
> Now, tell me, is that usefull for users or not?
> And until recently it was the default.
> 
>> imho its better to just keep binary packages of stuff you've installed.
>> if your update fails and you need your system asap, you just emerge
>> your binaries back in no time :) no cp'ing or other strange
>> out-of-portage stuff
> 
> binary packages don't help you with your config changes or ither stuff you put 
> into the tree.
> 
Wow, I didn't realize I was opening up such a hornet's nest.  I don't
/need/ kdeprefix as such.  But, the fact is I used it because there were
(and still are AFAIK) apps that require the KDE3.5 libs (k3b in
particular) and felt like +kdeprefix was the best option.  Once I know
the apps I use regularly wil use the KDE4 libs, then I'll drop kdeprefix.


-- 
Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

Mark Haney
Sr. Systems Administrator
ERC Broadband
(828) 350-2415

Re: [gentoo-amd64] KDE and kdeprefix

[Alex Alexander]

On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 14:16, Volker Armin
Hemmann<volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On Freitag 12 Juni 2009, Alex Alexander wrote:
> Do I need to remind you that kde's own documentation once said that you should
> install into /opt? into its own directory?
> Maybe that changed, but the 'not designed for' is not correct.

the whole problem arises with multiple versions. By saying Gentoo
Thing i was talking about multiple simultaneous installations, not the
default prefix.

> and without prefix, you can not have multiple versions.
> hmmm...

yes obviously :)

> I give you an example:
> KDe 3.4 is installed, you want to try 3.5, you install it and switch when you
> are ready. After an hour you realize that 3.5.0 is very buggy, no problem, you
> just log in back to 3.4.
> ...
> Now, tell me, is that usefull for users or not?
> And until recently it was the default.

its useful, but buggy, thats the whole point of that ewarn.

>> imho its better to just keep binary packages of stuff you've installed.
>> if your update fails and you need your system asap, you just emerge
>> your binaries back in no time :) no cp'ing or other strange
>> out-of-portage stuff
>
> binary packages don't help you with your config changes or ither stuff you put
> into the tree.

they still help if the update breaks your system =]
you should keep ~/.kde4 backups manually anyway :)

--
Alex Alexander || wired
Gentoo QT && KDE Herd Tester
http://www.linuxized.com

Re: [gentoo-amd64] KDE and kdeprefix

[Alex Alexander]

On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 15:13, Mark Haney<mhaney@ercbroadband.org> wrote:
> Wow, I didn't realize I was opening up such a hornet's nest.  I don't
> /need/ kdeprefix as such.  But, the fact is I used it because there were
> (and still are AFAIK) apps that require the KDE3.5 libs (k3b in
> particular) and felt like +kdeprefix was the best option.  Once I know
> the apps I use regularly wil use the KDE4 libs, then I'll drop kdeprefix.

You don't need kdeprefix to have kde 3 and kde 4 at the same time
because kde 3.5.10 is prefixed ( in /usr/kde/3.5 ) by default :)

--
Alex Alexander || wired
Gentoo QT && KDE Herd Tester
http://www.linuxized.com

Re: [gentoo-amd64] KDE and kdeprefix

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Freitag 12 Juni 2009, Alex Alexander wrote:

> they still help if the update breaks your system =]

they don't help too much with kde-live (because of that I copy the packages 
from /usr/packges into a backup dir before the update starts.) 

> you should keep ~/.kde4 backups manually anyway :)

that is something I do anyway :)

[gentoo-amd64] Re: KDE and kdeprefix

[Duncan]

Nikos Chantziaras <realnc@arcor.de> posted h0sosu$bcj$1@ger.gmane.org,
excerpted below, on  Fri, 12 Jun 2009 08:25:51 +0300:

> On 06/11/2009 11:07 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>> I can give you  examples why it is good: -you can have multiple
>> versions of kde installed
> 
> *If* you want multiple versions.
> 
> 
>> - it makes updates risk free. You go from X.Y.Z to X.Y.Z+1 or X.Y+1 -
>> and before you do so, you just copy the whole kde dir.
> 
> Why not just "quickpkg --include-config=y --include-unmodified-config=y"
>   all to-be-upgraded packages?  Looks just as safe to me.  In fact, I do
> this on a regular basis.

Or with FEATURES=buildpkg, you'll already have stuff binpkged as you 
merge it, so it's easy enough to revert, just emerge -K =pkg-ver or mask 
the new version and remerge -K to get the old one.  (Altho this will get 
you the original config, but with kde, most folks don't change the system 
config anyway, only the package-untouched user config in $HOME.)

And it's easy enough to get a package files list from equery and the 
like, should it become necessary.

Plus it should be mentioned that kde-3.5 remains where it is in /usr/kde, 
so it's still possible to run a 3.5 and a 4.x version together, even when 
4.x is in the normal /usr/ dirs.  That's important for those of us who 
haven't and probably won't move off of kde-3.5 for general usage for some 
time, but still want to experiment with 4.x.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: KDE and kdeprefix

[Beso]

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2009/6/12 Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net>

> Nikos Chantziaras <realnc@arcor.de> posted h0sosu$bcj$1@ger.gmane.org,
> excerpted below, on  Fri, 12 Jun 2009 08:25:51 +0300:
>
> > On 06/11/2009 11:07 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> >> I can give you  examples why it is good: -you can have multiple
> >> versions of kde installed
> >
> > *If* you want multiple versions.
> >
> >
> >> - it makes updates risk free. You go from X.Y.Z to X.Y.Z+1 or X.Y+1 -
> >> and before you do so, you just copy the whole kde dir.
> >
> > Why not just "quickpkg --include-config=y --include-unmodified-config=y"
> >   all to-be-upgraded packages?  Looks just as safe to me.  In fact, I do
> > this on a regular basis.
>
> Or with FEATURES=buildpkg, you'll already have stuff binpkged as you
> merge it, so it's easy enough to revert, just emerge -K =pkg-ver or mask
> the new version and remerge -K to get the old one.  (Altho this will get
> you the original config, but with kde, most folks don't change the system
> config anyway, only the package-untouched user config in $HOME.)
>
> And it's easy enough to get a package files list from equery and the
> like, should it become necessary.
>
> Plus it should be mentioned that kde-3.5 remains where it is in /usr/kde,
> so it's still possible to run a 3.5 and a 4.x version together, even when
> 4.x is in the normal /usr/ dirs.  That's important for those of us who
> haven't and probably won't move off of kde-3.5 for general usage for some
> time, but still want to experiment with 4.x.
>

finally, 4.3 will mark the removal of my old 3.5 installation. i think that
for about 90% of people will be finally able to switch entirely to kde4. The
apps are now mostly complete and the 3.5 apps that are still maintained have
now been ported; plasma is ok and quite customizable, the backends are
working well, with the exception of pulseaudio that is now having some
problems with the phonon backend when used in conjuction with flash and old
apps that lock directly the physical card, but i suspect that this is due to
some configuration issue.
Well, anyway, if any of you has tried to have kde4.x and kde-svn running on
the same installation would have a lot of problems. the prefix is not
working very well and there are quite some problems with apps identifying
the wrong path.

-- 
dott. ing. beso

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[gentoo-amd64] Re: KDE and kdeprefix

[Nikos Chantziaras]

On 06/12/2009 07:58 PM, Beso wrote:
> finally, 4.3 will mark the removal of my old 3.5 installation. i think
> that for about 90% of people will be finally able to switch entirely to
> kde4. The apps are now mostly complete and the 3.5 apps that are still
> maintained have now been ported; plasma is ok and quite customizable,
> the backends are working well, with the exception of pulseaudio that is
> now having some problems with the phonon backend when used in conjuction
> with flash and old apps that lock directly the physical card, but i
> suspect that this is due to some configuration issue.

If you don't need networked sound, you can uninstall pulseaudio and alsa 
and use oss4 (there's an ebuild).  I did that and old programs who want 
exclusive access to /dev/dsp work OK without locking the sound.  KDE 4 
works fine with using Xine backend.  This will need putting "-alsa oss" 
in make.conf though and a rebuild of all packages that use those flags.

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: KDE and kdeprefix

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Freitag 12 Juni 2009, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
> On 06/12/2009 07:58 PM, Beso wrote:
> > finally, 4.3 will mark the removal of my old 3.5 installation. i think
> > that for about 90% of people will be finally able to switch entirely to
> > kde4. The apps are now mostly complete and the 3.5 apps that are still
> > maintained have now been ported; plasma is ok and quite customizable,
> > the backends are working well, with the exception of pulseaudio that is
> > now having some problems with the phonon backend when used in conjuction
> > with flash and old apps that lock directly the physical card, but i
> > suspect that this is due to some configuration issue.
>
> If you don't need networked sound, you can uninstall pulseaudio and alsa
> and use oss4 (there's an ebuild).  I did that and old programs who want
> exclusive access to /dev/dsp work OK without locking the sound.  KDE 4
> works fine with using Xine backend.  This will need putting "-alsa oss"
> in make.conf though and a rebuild of all packages that use those flags.

hm, I never met an app that blocked /dev/dsp cpmpletly in the last couple of 
years, could you name an example?

[gentoo-amd64] Re: KDE and kdeprefix

[Nikos Chantziaras]

On 06/12/2009 08:43 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> On Freitag 12 Juni 2009, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
>> On 06/12/2009 07:58 PM, Beso wrote:
>>> finally, 4.3 will mark the removal of my old 3.5 installation. i think
>>> that for about 90% of people will be finally able to switch entirely to
>>> kde4. The apps are now mostly complete and the 3.5 apps that are still
>>> maintained have now been ported; plasma is ok and quite customizable,
>>> the backends are working well, with the exception of pulseaudio that is
>>> now having some problems with the phonon backend when used in conjuction
>>> with flash and old apps that lock directly the physical card, but i
>>> suspect that this is due to some configuration issue.
>> If you don't need networked sound, you can uninstall pulseaudio and alsa
>> and use oss4 (there's an ebuild).  I did that and old programs who want
>> exclusive access to /dev/dsp work OK without locking the sound.  KDE 4
>> works fine with using Xine backend.  This will need putting "-alsa oss"
>> in make.conf though and a rebuild of all packages that use those flags.
>
> hm, I never met an app that blocked /dev/dsp cpmpletly in the last couple of
> years, could you name an example?

Everything, without even a single exception.  I then switched to aRts 
and ESD on top of ALSA for a couple of years.  Before a year or so I 
switched to OSS4 after it got GPLed since I prefer having just one audio 
system instead of 3.

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: KDE and kdeprefix

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Freitag 12 Juni 2009, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
> On 06/12/2009 08:43 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > On Freitag 12 Juni 2009, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
> >> On 06/12/2009 07:58 PM, Beso wrote:
> >>> finally, 4.3 will mark the removal of my old 3.5 installation. i think
> >>> that for about 90% of people will be finally able to switch entirely to
> >>> kde4. The apps are now mostly complete and the 3.5 apps that are still
> >>> maintained have now been ported; plasma is ok and quite customizable,
> >>> the backends are working well, with the exception of pulseaudio that is
> >>> now having some problems with the phonon backend when used in
> >>> conjuction with flash and old apps that lock directly the physical
> >>> card, but i suspect that this is due to some configuration issue.
> >>
> >> If you don't need networked sound, you can uninstall pulseaudio and alsa
> >> and use oss4 (there's an ebuild).  I did that and old programs who want
> >> exclusive access to /dev/dsp work OK without locking the sound.  KDE 4
> >> works fine with using Xine backend.  This will need putting "-alsa oss"
> >> in make.conf though and a rebuild of all packages that use those flags.
> >
> > hm, I never met an app that blocked /dev/dsp cpmpletly in the last couple
> > of years, could you name an example?
>
> Everything, without even a single exception.  I then switched to aRts
> and ESD on top of ALSA for a couple of years.  Before a year or so I
> switched to OSS4 after it got GPLed since I prefer having just one audio
> system instead of 3.

nothing with none exception. I had to set up dmix a long time ago, then it 
worked automagically.. but blocking apps? nope.

Sound daemons like arts or esd - yes, those blocked sound and were a pain in 
the ass.

[gentoo-amd64] Re: KDE and kdeprefix

[Nikos Chantziaras]

On 06/12/2009 09:00 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> [...]
> nothing with none exception. I had to set up dmix a long time ago, then it
> worked automagically.. but blocking apps? nope.

Without dmix everything blocks.  After I've set it up, I was still 
ending up with applications going silent while some other sound was 
playing; not working as advertised.  Resampling is higher latency and 
more CPU intensive too, but that mattered only on my old system though. 
  Another important factor is that with ALSA I had sound skips during 
heavy CPU activity.  With OSS4 the sound is always playing smoothly, no 
matter what.  I've never had a skip.  I once even got a system lock-up 
caused by ATI's fglrx driver but OSS4 had the music still playing even 
though the whole system had gone to nirvana.

Another factor for me (but I guess most others aren't affected) is that 
I like the OSS API much better.  I wrote a minimal wav player in 10 
minutes.  Have you ever looked at the ALSA API?  Don't :P  It's a piece 
of crap.  There are literally thousands of functions, all doing the same 
thing but still not quite right...  Also, OSS is standard across 
different Unix-like systems, while ALSA is Linux-only.  All this (and 
especially the easy to code for OSS API) results in OSS support in 
applications to work quite better (Wine, for example).

So to sum it up, OSS looks like the better system to me.  I never had 
problems with it and therefore I always recommend it.


> Sound daemons like arts or esd - yes, those blocked sound and were a pain in
> the ass.

Maybe I understood something else with "blocking".  What I mean is 
having one application going silent after another one plays something 
else.  For example, AMSN would stop playing chat sounds when I was 
watching a YouTube video.  To get non-blocking sound (if that's what you 
mean with "blocking"), I had to do the exact opposite of what you did: 
use arts and/or esd.  At some point I had enough and tried to give OSS4 
a try.  I liked it and stayed with it.  Worked out of the box without 
needing to configure anything.

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: KDE and kdeprefix

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Freitag 12 Juni 2009, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
> On 06/12/2009 09:00 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > [...]
> > nothing with none exception. I had to set up dmix a long time ago, then
> > it worked automagically.. but blocking apps? nope.
>
> Without dmix everything blocks.  After I've set it up, I was still
> ending up with applications going silent while some other sound was
> playing;

except that you don't have to set up dmix for years. It works out of the box.

>  I once even got a system lock-up
> caused by ATI's fglrx driver but OSS4 had the music still playing even
> though the whole system had gone to nirvana.

that is not unique to oss...

>
> Another factor for me (but I guess most others aren't affected) is that
> I like the OSS API much better.  I wrote a minimal wav player in 10
> minutes.  Have you ever looked at the ALSA API?  Don't :P  It's a piece
> of crap.  There are literally thousands of functions, all doing the same
> thing but still not quite right...  Also, OSS is standard across
> different Unix-like systems, while ALSA is Linux-only.  All this (and
> especially the easy to code for OSS API) results in OSS support in
> applications to work quite better (Wine, for example).

wine is a broken POS - so not really a good example.

>
> So to sum it up, OSS looks like the better system to me.  I never had
> problems with it and therefore I always recommend it.

and I had a lot of problems with it, felt ripped of and never recommend it.

>
> > Sound daemons like arts or esd - yes, those blocked sound and were a pain
> > in the ass.
>
> Maybe I understood something else with "blocking".  What I mean is
> having one application going silent after another one plays something
> else. 

yes,

> For example, AMSN would stop playing chat sounds when I was
> watching a YouTube video

yes

> To get non-blocking sound (if that's what you
> mean with "blocking"), I had to do the exact opposite of what you did:
> use arts and/or esd.  At some point I had enough and tried to give OSS4
> a try.  I liked it and stayed with it.  Worked out of the box without
> needing to configure anything.

and esd/arts made it worse for me.

IMHO sound daemons are inherently broken. A stupid bandaid to fix a stupid 
problem.

[gentoo-amd64] Re: KDE and kdeprefix

[Nikos Chantziaras]

On 06/12/2009 10:52 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> On Freitag 12 Juni 2009, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
>> On 06/12/2009 09:00 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>>> [...]
>>> nothing with none exception. I had to set up dmix a long time ago, then
>>> it worked automagically.. but blocking apps? nope.
>> Without dmix everything blocks.  After I've set it up, I was still
>> ending up with applications going silent while some other sound was
>> playing;
>
> except that you don't have to set up dmix for years. It works out of the box.

Well, I remember it differently.  I had to configure it and it kept 
breaking.


>>   I once even got a system lock-up
>> caused by ATI's fglrx driver but OSS4 had the music still playing even
>> though the whole system had gone to nirvana.
>
> that is not unique to oss...

ALSA skipped sound a lot.  I don't consider hearing music while the 
system is gone a "feature", just an indication that it will never skip, 
no matter how hard you try.


>> Another factor for me (but I guess most others aren't affected) is that
>> I like the OSS API much better.  I wrote a minimal wav player in 10
>> minutes.  Have you ever looked at the ALSA API?  Don't :P  It's a piece
>> of crap.  There are literally thousands of functions, all doing the same
>> thing but still not quite right...  Also, OSS is standard across
>> different Unix-like systems, while ALSA is Linux-only.  All this (and
>> especially the easy to code for OSS API) results in OSS support in
>> applications to work quite better (Wine, for example).
>
> wine is a broken POS - so not really a good example.

My point was that since OSS is easier to support than ALSA, there are 
less problems to be expected.

And, ALSA is not portable.  It's tied to Linux.  I like to support more 
open systems.


>> So to sum it up, OSS looks like the better system to me.  I never had
>> problems with it and therefore I always recommend it.
>
> and I had a lot of problems with it, felt ripped of and never recommend it.

I doubt it you ever used it.


> IMHO sound daemons are inherently broken. A stupid bandaid to fix a stupid
> problem.

On that one, we agree.