From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE3D913838B for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2014 18:22:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3D074E0A84; Mon, 22 Sep 2014 18:22:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-ig0-f179.google.com (mail-ig0-f179.google.com [209.85.213.179]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A6BC5E0A5D for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2014 18:22:50 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-ig0-f179.google.com with SMTP id l13so3233200iga.0 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2014 11:22:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=PZHOswz9F8DcqfBP9U5JT1KaXDthZnSgCzlFq86vDrI=; b=wvt9KmBoc6SB5TTIiSwmohDmPWpG50BmQx61pBHNvercK8pFHlfeCuR2SNHOMlijJZ YVY/vts2X4WsLqdxPnUn3dkkIaI/lKTE54CRJQV5y2jdrqMVShVgnfHlFsG4qvnw6uY4 ijkAj9WR6N0A7LQU5WUz3hY4LICSxzuWdTW9+7OK0ncbi4LgbuGMQBGCj9+Z7zoKynnO fp71JMsYot1H2RmHrUFgwkAoCA++pWhTfDQfPJTXsqEHXMElqDYDNl4AG9FO4oMJM30E tuwvJnSrhU+j+3OoD+o5DpYbRt1VtSwgxftmM3NXDgZPJtq/WzpGJFCcF8Jt72MGlTKx L6lg== X-Received: by 10.43.82.66 with SMTP id ab2mr8651995icc.56.1411410169885; Mon, 22 Sep 2014 11:22:49 -0700 (PDT) Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.107.11.141 with HTTP; Mon, 22 Sep 2014 11:22:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20140922175846.GA22399@crud> References: <20140921132548.d4ad54724473a2aeee688daa@comcast.net> <20140921143059.c3c16dfdeab6f65280b7caa6@comcast.net> <20140921192043.GA9652@crud> <20140921171301.5f008b3bd12c21c2f8fdd67e@comcast.net> <20140921202600.08d082d88014228172007477@comcast.net> <20140922175846.GA22399@crud> From: =?UTF-8?B?Q2FuZWsgUGVsw6FleiBWYWxkw6lz?= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 13:22:28 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [gentoo-amd64] Boycott Systemd To: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Archives-Salt: d8b6f135-d410-40c4-9a15-f6c13417bc85 X-Archives-Hash: 59eba0dc430d577b327d691a3cb6a923 On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 12:58 PM, Barry Schwartz wrote: > Lie Ryan skribis: >> Diversity isn't about feeding people who feels everything not-invented >> here is godawful. When you have a clearly defined problem and you can >> create a solution that satisfies that niche better than any other >> solutions, that is diversity. > > =E2=80=98Diversity=E2=80=99 here is deviation from established Unix/POSIX= philosophy > in system design. Years of effort to simplify programming are being > thrown away on grounds that resemble common arguments in favor of the > =E2=80=98tight integration=E2=80=99 that is Microsoft Windows. I mean, se= riously, many > of the pro-systemd arguments are like those I have heard for using > Windows: that applications =E2=80=98just work=E2=80=99, because they were= written for > a dominant system. > > But I view this like a programmer, not like a Windows user; I want my > software to be portable because it is written portably (in a POSIX > sense), not because it is written for a universally available > particular POSIX variant. What I see is something like a return to the > days when you had to write different code for variants of USG, BSD, > and whatnot, except that now, unlike then, one of the variants is > overwhelmingly dominant. > > What I really fear, though, is what if one day the kernel team is a > different entity, more like other entities in the Linux world? As a professional programmer, I completely disagree with any dogma based on "philosophy" rather than technical merits. I will not rehash here the same discussion we have had several times in gentoo-user, so I will just paste what Linus recently had to say about "the traditional unix"[1]. "So I think many of the "original ideals" of UNIX are these days more of a mindset issue than necessarily reflecting reality of the situation. "There's still value in understanding the traditional UNIX "do one thing and do it well" model where many workflows can be done as a pipeline of simple tools each adding their own value, but let's face it, it's not how complex systems really work, and it's not how major applications have been working or been designed for a long time. It's a useful simplification, and it's still true at *some* level, but I think it's also clear that it doesn't really describe most of reality. "It might describe some particular case, though, and I do think it's a useful teaching tool. People obviously still do those traditional pipelines of processes and file descriptors that UNIX is perhaps associated with, but there's a *lot* of cases where you have big complex unified systems." Let me emphasize the important part: "There's still value in understanding the traditional UNIX [...] model [...], but let's face it, it's not how complex systems really work". So, I'm sorry, but if I'm going to take a programmer's word, is going to be Linus over almost anyone else. And to quote Rob Pike: "Not only is UNIX dead, it=E2=80=99s starting to smell really bad." Regards. [1] http://www.itwire.com/business-it-news/open-source/65402-torvalds-says-= he-has-no-strong-opinions-on-systemd --=20 Canek Pel=C3=A1ez Vald=C3=A9s Profesor de asignatura, Facultad de Ciencias Universidad Nacional Aut=C3=B3noma de M=C3=A9xico