From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0D0F13873B for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 17:58:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A5B7DE0A53; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 17:58:20 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-la0-f52.google.com (mail-la0-f52.google.com [209.85.215.52]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BDB0FE0A03 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 17:58:19 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-la0-f52.google.com with SMTP id ec20so3995134lab.25 for ; Mon, 03 Mar 2014 09:58:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Quzk7coD1TnBZoYPa/eZTcBBlynlAZ7qBb5d9HB/sqw=; b=lmoe4qea554jQCZERceQMfFmx7BpRXAvCji+NDNfAIb4yseF2tZXAYYe6P/G4zP11H n/yupAszEVjWMJF3DavkFkofDbHRw2LsXUQxPernfFMeLD1uEYVlgVV6XQKb9RZwvXDM KoIuIwzrg5ZhOa/WUEUh0adi0ddEC1e7AhzRnc9PNkKnLtipz1xZCrKtpkyqIHcWcIJI 1U/51y32QwPq6oPuolpLZY1cDlWCCZtH5dZYmbm1+9J4OywjMN80Rm8EKJrGIJ73NuG5 Lpm8qEiAwYy3tdLZkg2I+Y6yy7eExaaOCGJm0Kdy5QYdHVh/ebdM+YtH4kbPPQEPwdap U8Tg== Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.198.69 with SMTP id ja5mr2980851lbc.50.1393869498213; Mon, 03 Mar 2014 09:58:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.176.36 with HTTP; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 09:58:18 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <5314B8C6.3040803@libertytrek.org> Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 11:58:18 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: Please get me straight about sysvinit vs. systemd, udev vs eudev vs mdev, virtuals and other things... From: =?UTF-8?B?Q2FuZWsgUGVsw6FleiBWYWxkw6lz?= To: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Archives-Salt: 8b9eb8e3-d8ef-4794-b067-1ce609d4ae3f X-Archives-Hash: 4367dc56216d1e1d05d6230a9301a6e3 On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 11:44 AM, Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> wrote: > Tanstaafl posted on Mon, 03 Mar 2014 12:15:50 -0500 as excerpted: > >> Why did udev *merge* with systemd, if there is no long term goal of >> completely and totally subsuming it such that you cannot use udev >> without also using systemd? >> >> Imnsho, since it is a KERNEL thingie, it should have been maintained as >> a totally separate package, or just admit the long term goal and be done >> with it. > > Actually, the point of udev was /userland/ (not kernel) managed device > policy. The idea was to keep the policy out of the kernel, unlike the > now dead 2.4-kernel devfs. (Current kernels do contain a slight variant > of tmpfs called devtmpfs specific to devices, but that doesn't do policy; > it's designed to be managed by userspace, tho in the absence of a > userspace device manager, kernelspace will create default-named device- > nodes there.) Exactly. > Meanwhile, for the record, the systemd and now udev folks have stated > that they would like to eventually merge udev fully into systemd, and > indeed, it's already shipped as a single tarball, but that udev is likely > to remain a separate binary that can be run stand-alone for some time, > because that's necessary in ordered to be able to keep a somewhat small > initramfs, with udev but without all the trappings of a full-fledged > systemd. If you use dracut to generate your initramfs, you can get a full-fledged systemd inside it, so you can use the systemd in the initramfs to start the systemd in the real filesystem. I use it like that. Total size of the "bloated" initramfs? 11 megabytes. 10,660,755 bytes if you want to be precise. It's even reasonable for an embedded system; and I have a lot of stuff there, it can be trimmed to be really small, still keeping systemd inside. Lets be clear: udev is *fully* merged into systemd. The share *code*. They are the *same project*. But udev can run without systemd, and that is not going to change. If anyone says otherwise, they are spreading FUD. BTW, and not really important, but systemd cannot run without udev. > However, with the introduction of kdbus and other changes, I'm wondering > if they'll decide they might as well shoehorn systemd onto the initramfs > as well, and will then subsume the full udev binary as well... Systemd is already "shoehorned" into my initramfs, and it works great, thank you very much. I don't understand what you mean by "subsume the full udev binary as well". > (This said as an openrc user at least for the time being... even > apparently one of the only people actually running the live-git > openrc-9999, or at least all the bugs filed on it seem to be mine. I've > suspected for some time that I'll eventually switch to systemd, but was > at least originally hoping to avoid it until it quits actively blackholin= g > nearly everything it comes across and had some reasonable time to > stabilize without gobbling something else up. But when that'll be... who > knows? And I'm getting an itch to try it one of these days, or at least > seriously read up on it with a view to _consider_ trying it, tho if I do > it'll likely still be against my better judgment, since I don't see it > really stabilizing any time soon and I had originally planned to wait for > that. So I guess I sort of fall in the middle in this debate.) If you run OpenRC live, I think you'll be fine running systemd, even 209/210, which introduced so many changes I've been waiting to upgrade my systems. Come to the dark side. We have cookies. Regards. --=20 Canek Pel=C3=A1ez Vald=C3=A9s Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingenier=C3=ADa de la Computaci=C3=B3n Universidad Nacional Aut=C3=B3noma de M=C3=A9xico