Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: Boycott Systemd

[Harry Holt <harryholt@gmail.com>]

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On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 2:00 AM, Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> wrote:

> Rich Freeman posted on Sun, 21 Sep 2014 22:34:23 -0400 as excerpted:
>
>
> As for the loss of the usb static device nodes, did you (Frank) file a
> bug about it breaking your userspace?  That's one of Linus' most firm
> kernel rules -- you do *NOT* change the userspace/kernelspace API/ABI and
> break userspace.  However, there's a known exception.  Rather like the
> old philosophical question as to whether if a tree falls in the forest
> and nobody hears/sees it, did it actually fall at all, if nobody notices
> the userspace/kernelspace ABI breaking, did it really break at all?
>
> [snip]
>


> And Linus and the other kernel devs are constantly pointing out that if
> they break userspace, report it as soon as possible so it can be fixed.
> Those who fail to do so, unfortunately very occasionally have to live
> with the resulting breakage, at least to some extent, tho they still go
> to rather extreme lengths to finesse things if and when they can.
>
> So if your userspace breaks due to a kernel change, report it as soon as
> you detect it and ask that it be fixed.  Linus is very likely to make
> sure it happens.  If you didn't do that, well...
>
> --
> Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
> "Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
> and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman
>
>
>
There are, in fact, a number of things that systemd breaks, and that the
devs refuse to fix, that even Linus has complained about.  To quote:

"Key, I'm f*cking tired of the fact that you don't fix problems in the code
*you* write, so that the kernel then has to work around the problems you
cause.

Greg - just for your information, I will *not* be merging any code from Kay
into the kernel until this constant pattern is fixed.

This has been going on for *years*, and doesn't seem to be getting any
better. This is relevant to you because I have seen you talk about the
kdbus patches, and this is a heads-up that you need to keep them separate
from other work. Let distributions merge it as they need to and maybe we
can merge it once it has been proven to be stable by whatever distro that
was willing to play games with the developers.

But I'm not willing to merge something where the maintainer is known to not
care about bugs and regressions and then forces people in other projects to
fix their project. Because I am *not* willing to take patches from people
who don't clean up after their problems, and don't admit that it's their
problem to fix.

Kay - one more time: you caused the problem, you need to fix it. None of
this "I can do whatever I want, others have to clean up after me" crap.

Linus
"

And it's not just Linus.  Something so pervasive, so entrenched into the
base of the system, AND that is causing problems for kernel devs to the
point that they have to implement work-arounds really needs to be reigned
in and forced to be more responsive to the needs of the OS / Linux
community as a whole, rather than the all-too-often response of "We don't
care that we've broken things you used to do in the past - this won't be
fixed and it's YOUR problem."  That is the pervasive attitude of Kay
Sievers, Red Hat, and others involved in systemd development.

Here's another take from Christopher Barry, in a mailing list post from
just last month:

systemd is a coup. It is a subversive interloper designed to destroy
Linux as we know it, foisted upon us by the snarky
we-know-better-than-you CamelCase crowd. They just don't get it down
deep where it matters. systemd is not pointing in a direction that we
should be going. It does not encourage freedom. It does not encourage
choice. It does not display transparency. It does not embrace
simplicity. It seizes control and forces you to cede it. It makes
applications and major system components depend on it, and they cannot
function without it. It's gaining speed by luring naive or lazy or just
plain clueless developers into the fold with the promise of making
their lives easier. Buying into this way of thinking ignores the
greater dangers that systemd represents.

https://lkml.org/lkml/2014/8/12/459

When someone wants to take away my freedom, I get concerned.

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