From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B45F13838B for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2014 03:52:00 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3796BE0A8B; Tue, 23 Sep 2014 03:51:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.nagafix.co.uk (mail.nagafix.co.uk [194.145.196.85]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55D17E099E for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2014 03:51:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: antoine@nagafix.co.uk) by mail.nagafix.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E6254154FB for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2014 04:51:54 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <5420EE55.1000301@nagafix.co.uk> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2014 10:51:49 +0700 From: Antoine Martin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-amd64] Boycott Systemd References: <20140921132548.d4ad54724473a2aeee688daa@comcast.net> <20140921143059.c3c16dfdeab6f65280b7caa6@comcast.net> <20140921192043.GA9652@crud> <20140921171301.5f008b3bd12c21c2f8fdd67e@comcast.net> <20140921202600.08d082d88014228172007477@comcast.net> <20140922175846.GA22399@crud> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------000404070801050503020906" X-Archives-Salt: 9acc83f7-6f61-4758-95af-6bda928fc7fa X-Archives-Hash: a403befbe4ec138227a70bd89f5fa34b This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------000404070801050503020906 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 23/09/14 01:22, Canek Pel=C3=A1ez Vald=C3=A9s wrote: > On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 12:58 PM, Barry Schwartz > wrote: >> Lie Ryan skribis: >>> Diversity isn't about feeding people who feels everything not-invente= d >>> here is godawful. When you have a clearly defined problem and you can= >>> create a solution that satisfies that niche better than any other >>> solutions, that is diversity. >> =E2=80=98Diversity=E2=80=99 here is deviation from established Unix/PO= SIX philosophy >> in system design. Years of effort to simplify programming are being >> thrown away on grounds that resemble common arguments in favor of the >> =E2=80=98tight integration=E2=80=99 that is Microsoft Windows. I mean,= seriously, many >> of the pro-systemd arguments are like those I have heard for using >> Windows: that applications =E2=80=98just work=E2=80=99, because they w= ere written for >> a dominant system. >> >> But I view this like a programmer, not like a Windows user; I want my >> software to be portable because it is written portably (in a POSIX >> sense), not because it is written for a universally available >> particular POSIX variant. What I see is something like a return to the= >> days when you had to write different code for variants of USG, BSD, >> and whatnot, except that now, unlike then, one of the variants is >> overwhelmingly dominant. >> >> What I really fear, though, is what if one day the kernel team is a >> different entity, more like other entities in the Linux world? > As a professional programmer, I completely disagree with any dogma > based on "philosophy" rather than technical merits. I will not rehash > here the same discussion we have had several times in gentoo-user, so > I will just paste what Linus recently had to say about "the > traditional unix"[1]. Your attempt to dismiss other people's concern with an appeal to authority is cute. And as was pointed later, this is very much a case of "cherry picking" from the interview, I've also seen " appeal to the majority" used in this thread. Personally, I am quite surprised to see that very few have mentioned the one thing that makes me cringe in all the systemd discussions, namely that anyone who disagrees with the systemd crowd is either misinformed, stupid or holding back progress. Though this thread is a lot less acrid than some (I am not posting to create further tension, but rather to explain where I think some of this tension is coming from). Many have legitimate gripes with systemd, but the dismissive attitude of many systemd proponents is more of a social problem, and a worrying one. It is almost impossible to have a technical discussion on the subject. Now for my anecdotal evidence, which may help explain my position on the subject: in 20 years of Linux, no other system level change has caused me more time wasted than systemd (admitedly, the grub2 "upgrade" comes close), this is both as a developer and as a user. I do not make the claim that systemd does not have advantages for others, please don't make the mistake of claiming that it does or will do something beneficial for *me*. Even if it did, it would take many many years to get me back on level terms :/ Apologies if this link was posted in this thread before, I think it eloquently captures some of the concerns about systemd (sense of humour required for reading): https://lkml.org/lkml/2014/8/12/459 Cheers Antoine --------------000404070801050503020906 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
On 23/09/14 01:22, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 12:58 PM, Barry Schwartz
<chemoelectric@chemoelectric.org> wrote:

Lie Ryan <lie.1296@gmail.com> skribis:

Diversity isn't about feeding people who feels everything not-invented
here is godawful. When you have a clearly defined problem and you can
create a solution that satisfies that niche better than any other
solutions, that is diversity.

‘Diversity’ here is deviation from established Unix/POSIX philosophy
in system design. Years of effort to simplify programming are being
thrown away on grounds that resemble common arguments in favor of the
‘tight integration’ that is Microsoft Windows. I mean, seriously, many
of the pro-systemd arguments are like those I have heard for using
Windows: that applications ‘just work’, because they were written for
a dominant system.

But I view this like a programmer, not like a Windows user; I want my
software to be portable because it is written portably (in a POSIX
sense), not because it is written for a universally available
particular POSIX variant. What I see is something like a return to the
days when you had to write different code for variants of USG, BSD,
and whatnot, except that now, unlike then, one of the variants is
overwhelmingly dominant.

What I really fear, though, is what if one day the kernel team is a
different entity, more like other entities in the Linux world?

As a professional programmer, I completely disagree with any dogma
based on "philosophy" rather than technical merits. I will not rehash
here the same discussion we have had several times in gentoo-user, so
I will just paste what Linus recently had to say about "the
traditional unix"[1].
Your attempt to dismiss other people's concern with an appeal to authority is cute.
And as was pointed later, this is very much a case of "cherry picking" from the interview, I've also seen " appeal to the majority" used in this thread.

Personally, I am quite surprised to see that very few have mentioned the one thing that makes me cringe in all the systemd discussions, namely that anyone who disagrees with the systemd crowd is either misinformed, stupid or holding back progress. Though this thread is a lot less acrid than some (I am not posting to create further tension, but rather to explain where I think some of this tension is coming from).
Many have legitimate gripes with systemd, but the dismissive attitude of many systemd proponents is more of a social problem, and a worrying one.
It is almost impossible to have a technical discussion on the subject.

Now for my anecdotal evidence, which may help explain my position on the subject: in 20 years of Linux, no other system level change has caused me more time wasted than systemd (admitedly, the grub2 "upgrade" comes close), this is both as a developer and as a user.
I do not make the claim that systemd does not have advantages for others, please don't make the mistake of claiming that it does or will do something beneficial for *me*. Even if it did, it would take many many years to get me back on level terms :/

Apologies if this link was posted in this thread before, I think it eloquently captures some of the concerns about systemd (sense of humour required for reading):
https://lkml.org/lkml/2014/8/12/459

Cheers
Antoine
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