[gentoo-amd64] About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[gentoo-amd64] About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Dale]

Hi,

First post here.  I'm usually on gentoo user.  I'm in the process of 
building a new system which will be 64 bit.  I am looking for advice.  I 
would like people to post things that I might run into that one wouldn't 
expect and some things that are different from x86.  I was looking at 
something on my old rig and noticed the USE flag smp.  I didn't know 
about that until I ran up on it.  I learned something by pure dumb luck.

I'm a long time Gentoo user.  Installed it at the early stages of 1.4.  
I also use KDE and have fluxbox installed as a backup.  The processor is 
a AMD Phenom II X4 955 @3.2Ghz.  It will start out with one 4Gb stick of 
ram.  I plan to expand that later.

What are some things that I should watch for and enable that isn't so 
obvious for someone new to 64 bit?

Thanks.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-amd64] About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Mark Knecht]

On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 1:17 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> First post here.  I'm usually on gentoo user.  I'm in the process of
> building a new system which will be 64 bit.  I am looking for advice.  I
> would like people to post things that I might run into that one wouldn't
> expect and some things that are different from x86.  I was looking at
> something on my old rig and noticed the USE flag smp.  I didn't know about
> that until I ran up on it.  I learned something by pure dumb luck.
>
> I'm a long time Gentoo user.  Installed it at the early stages of 1.4.  I
> also use KDE and have fluxbox installed as a backup.  The processor is a AMD
> Phenom II X4 955 @3.2Ghz.  It will start out with one 4Gb stick of ram.  I
> plan to expand that later.
>
> What are some things that I should watch for and enable that isn't so
> obvious for someone new to 64 bit?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Dale

Hi Dale,
   It's been so long since I've done anything that wasn't 64-bit so
it's hard to answer. I think the 64-bit install guide is quite good.
One thing that I think some folks (me included) do that differs from
the guide (at least the last time I read it) is to use grub-static
instead of grub. I suspect that's because it's 32-bit and more
compatible.

   Other than that I can't think of anything I do differently.

   Best of luck with the new install. I'm sure it will go great.

Cheers,
Mark

Re: [gentoo-amd64] About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Dale]

Mark Knecht wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 1:17 PM, Dale<rdalek1967@gmail.com>  wrote:
>    
>> Hi,
>>
>> First post here.  I'm usually on gentoo user.  I'm in the process of
>> building a new system which will be 64 bit.  I am looking for advice.  I
>> would like people to post things that I might run into that one wouldn't
>> expect and some things that are different from x86.  I was looking at
>> something on my old rig and noticed the USE flag smp.  I didn't know about
>> that until I ran up on it.  I learned something by pure dumb luck.
>>
>> I'm a long time Gentoo user.  Installed it at the early stages of 1.4.  I
>> also use KDE and have fluxbox installed as a backup.  The processor is a AMD
>> Phenom II X4 955 @3.2Ghz.  It will start out with one 4Gb stick of ram.  I
>> plan to expand that later.
>>
>> What are some things that I should watch for and enable that isn't so
>> obvious for someone new to 64 bit?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Dale
>>      
> Hi Dale,
>     It's been so long since I've done anything that wasn't 64-bit so
> it's hard to answer. I think the 64-bit install guide is quite good.
> One thing that I think some folks (me included) do that differs from
> the guide (at least the last time I read it) is to use grub-static
> instead of grub. I suspect that's because it's 32-bit and more
> compatible.
>
>     Other than that I can't think of anything I do differently.
>
>     Best of luck with the new install. I'm sure it will go great.
>
> Cheers,
> Mark
>
>    

Thanks.  I wasn't aware of that.  I made a note of it.  I certainly 
don't want that to mess up.  lol

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-amd64] About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Stan Sander]

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Wednesday 08 December 2010


> > One thing that I think some folks (me included) do that differs from
> > the guide (at least the last time I read it) is to use grub-static
> > instead of grub. I suspect that's because it's 32-bit and more
> > compatible.
> >
> >     Other than that I can't think of anything I do differently.
> >
> >     Best of luck with the new install. I'm sure it will go great.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Mark
> >
> >    
> 
> Thanks.  I wasn't aware of that.  I made a note of it.  I certainly 
> don't want that to mess up.  lol
> 
> Dale
> 
> :-)  :-)
> 

In addition to using grub-static, you will need to have the IA32 Emulation enabled in your kernel, else you won't be able to execute grub at all.  It's under file formats / Emulations in the menu.

-- 
Stan & HD Tashi Grad 10/08  Edgewood, NM  SWR
PR - Cindy and Jenny - Sammamish, WA  NWR
http://www.sblan.net/tashi

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Re: [gentoo-amd64] About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Frank Peters]

On Wed, 8 Dec 2010 19:13:18 -0700
Stan Sander <stsander@sblan.net> wrote:

> In addition to using grub-static, you will need to have the
> IA32 Emulation enabled in your kernel, else you won't be able
>  to execute grub at all.

If you are building a system largely for personal or even small
business use, you can easily use lilo instead of grub.

Lilo is still actively maintained and is my personal preference.

Frank Peters

Re: [gentoo-amd64] About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Dale]

Frank Peters wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Dec 2010 19:13:18 -0700
> Stan Sander<stsander@sblan.net>  wrote:
>
>    
>> In addition to using grub-static, you will need to have the
>> IA32 Emulation enabled in your kernel, else you won't be able
>>   to execute grub at all.
>>      
> If you are building a system largely for personal or even small
> business use, you can easily use lilo instead of grub.
>
> Lilo is still actively maintained and is my personal preference.
>
> Frank Peters
>
>    

I used lilo when I first started using Linux, Mandrake 9.1 days.  When I 
started with Gentoo, I switched to grub.  I can't even imagine being 
without grub.  I know lilo has some strong points and is maintained but 
I still prefer grub.  I also read that a new grub is in the pipe too.  
Supposed to be much better.  That's the rumor anyway.

Thanks.

Dale

:-)  :-)

[gentoo-amd64] Re: About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Duncan]

Dale posted on Wed, 08 Dec 2010 23:32:29 -0600 as excerpted:

> I used lilo when I first started using Linux, Mandrake 9.1 days.  When I
> started with Gentoo, I switched to grub.  I can't even imagine being
> without grub.  I know lilo has some strong points and is maintained but
> I still prefer grub.  I also read that a new grub is in the pipe too.
> Supposed to be much better.  That's the rumor anyway.

Grub is nice on local machines, due to the ability to use its interactive 
shell.  That can be quite useful when the config is screwed up for some 
reason.  On remote machines where the interactivity until booted is much 
lower anyway, that doesn't matter so much (if at all) and lilo is as good, 
possibly better.

As for grub2... yes, it's in the pipe... as it has been for /years/.  
Unfortunately, they did the same thing kde did and pulled support for 
their current stable version LONG before the new version was stable, 
leaving users between a rock and a hard place.  Fortunately, grub is far 
smaller and less complex than all of kde, and distributions were able to 
step in and pick up the slack (yeah, free software, try doing that with 
servantware when the original company abandons it), continuing to both 
keep it building with new toolchains, and add new features like support 
for ext4, etc.

Unfortunately, last I knew, grub2 wasn't even officially on-disk-format-
stable yet, tho with ubuntu and etc already using it, it's getting more 
difficult to change it, and they were /probably/ done with changes, but at 
least last I knew, it wasn't official, yet.

FWIW, there's a (masked) grub-2 in the tree, that I've been thinking about 
playing with at some point, but I've not gotten to it.  When I eventually 
do, I'll know quite a bit more about it, but grub1 (0.97-rX) has continued 
to work fine for me, so no rush.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Dale]

Duncan wrote:
> Dale posted on Wed, 08 Dec 2010 23:32:29 -0600 as excerpted:
>
>    
>> I used lilo when I first started using Linux, Mandrake 9.1 days.  When I
>> started with Gentoo, I switched to grub.  I can't even imagine being
>> without grub.  I know lilo has some strong points and is maintained but
>> I still prefer grub.  I also read that a new grub is in the pipe too.
>> Supposed to be much better.  That's the rumor anyway.
>>      
> Grub is nice on local machines, due to the ability to use its interactive
> shell.  That can be quite useful when the config is screwed up for some
> reason.  On remote machines where the interactivity until booted is much
> lower anyway, that doesn't matter so much (if at all) and lilo is as good,
> possibly better.
>
> As for grub2... yes, it's in the pipe... as it has been for /years/.
> Unfortunately, they did the same thing kde did and pulled support for
> their current stable version LONG before the new version was stable,
> leaving users between a rock and a hard place.  Fortunately, grub is far
> smaller and less complex than all of kde, and distributions were able to
> step in and pick up the slack (yeah, free software, try doing that with
> servantware when the original company abandons it), continuing to both
> keep it building with new toolchains, and add new features like support
> for ext4, etc.
>
> Unfortunately, last I knew, grub2 wasn't even officially on-disk-format-
> stable yet, tho with ubuntu and etc already using it, it's getting more
> difficult to change it, and they were /probably/ done with changes, but at
> least last I knew, it wasn't official, yet.
>
> FWIW, there's a (masked) grub-2 in the tree, that I've been thinking about
> playing with at some point, but I've not gotten to it.  When I eventually
> do, I'll know quite a bit more about it, but grub1 (0.97-rX) has continued
> to work fine for me, so no rush.
>
>    

One would think people would learn from KDE that stopping support for 
one to favor the new one makes people . . . upset.  I guess some people 
never learn tho.

Dale

:-)  :-)

[gentoo-amd64] Re: About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Duncan]

Dale posted on Thu, 09 Dec 2010 10:28:39 -0600 as excerpted:

> One would think people would learn from KDE that stopping support for
> one to favor the new one makes people . . . upset.  I guess some people
> never learn tho.

Well, the grub thing has been going on for years, from well before kde4.  
It was just hidden better, because as I said, it's a small enough program 
that the distributions could reasonably take up the slack.

It seems trinity is doing the same with kde3, but it took long enough to 
pick it up that the gap was very visible to users, and it remains to be 
seen how well they'll do.  But I do wish them well, it's actually possible 
to do with FLOSS, and if things go well, here in a few years we'll have a 
qt (by then qt4) based "lite" desktop, with trinity or whatever they've 
decided to call it by then, parallel on the qt side, to the gtk-based xfce 
on the gtk side.  Perhaps that's the best of both worlds, but it would 
have been nice had that support gap never had to happen. <shrug>

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-amd64] About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Dale]

Stan Sander wrote:
> Wednesday 08 December 2010
>
>
>    
>>> One thing that I think some folks (me included) do that differs from
>>> the guide (at least the last time I read it) is to use grub-static
>>> instead of grub. I suspect that's because it's 32-bit and more
>>> compatible.
>>>
>>>      Other than that I can't think of anything I do differently.
>>>
>>>      Best of luck with the new install. I'm sure it will go great.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Mark
>>>
>>>
>>>        
>> Thanks.  I wasn't aware of that.  I made a note of it.  I certainly
>> don't want that to mess up.  lol
>>
>> Dale
>>
>> :-)  :-)
>>
>>      
> In addition to using grub-static, you will need to have the IA32 Emulation enabled in your kernel, else you won't be able to execute grub at all.  It's under file formats / Emulations in the menu.
>
>    

Glad you posted this.  I looked at the USE flags for grub not a package 
called grub-static.  That seems to be two different beasts.  I never 
knew that package existed.  Would emerging the plain grub with the 
static USE flag give the same results?  I would think not else they 
would just have one package but am curious just the same.

Thanks.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-amd64] About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[J. Roeleveld]

On Thursday 09 December 2010 06:13:21 Dale wrote:
> Stan Sander wrote:
> > Wednesday 08 December 2010
> > 
> >>> One thing that I think some folks (me included) do that differs from
> >>> the guide (at least the last time I read it) is to use grub-static
> >>> instead of grub. I suspect that's because it's 32-bit and more
> >>> compatible.
> >>> 
> >>>      Other than that I can't think of anything I do differently.
> >>>      
> >>>      Best of luck with the new install. I'm sure it will go great.
> >>> 
> >>> Cheers,
> >>> Mark
> >> 
> >> Thanks.  I wasn't aware of that.  I made a note of it.  I certainly
> >> don't want that to mess up.  lol
> >> 
> >> Dale
> >> 
> >> :-)  :-)
> > 
> > In addition to using grub-static, you will need to have the IA32
> > Emulation enabled in your kernel, else you won't be able to execute grub
> > at all.  It's under file formats / Emulations in the menu.
> 
> Glad you posted this.  I looked at the USE flags for grub not a package
> called grub-static.  That seems to be two different beasts.  I never
> knew that package existed.  Would emerging the plain grub with the
> static USE flag give the same results?  I would think not else they
> would just have one package but am curious just the same.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Dale
> 
> :-)  :-)

FYI:

[U] sys-boot/grub
     Available versions:  
        (0)     *0.92-r1 0.94-r1 0.96-r1 0.96-r2 ~0.96-r3 ~0.97 0.97-r2 0.97-
r3 0.97-r4 0.97-r5 0.97-r6 ~0.97-r8 0.97-r9 ~0.97-r9[9] 0.97-r10 ~0.97-r12[4] 
0.97-r22[6] ~0.97-r90[5] **1.96[2] 1.97-r1[7] ~1.97-r2322[9] ~1.97.2-r1[6] 
~1.97.2-r2[6] **1.98 ~1.98-r7[6] ~1.98-r8[6] **9999 **9999[2] ~9999[7] 
~9999!s[8]
        (2)     ~1.97.2[1] ~1.97.2[3]
        {amd64 custom-cflags (+)debug efi efiemu multilib multislot ncurses 
netboot nls static truetype usb}
     Installed versions:  0.97-r10(05:22:15 PM 11/22/2010)(ncurses -custom-
cflags -netboot -static)
     Homepage:            http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/
     Description:         GNU GRUB 2 boot loader

I use the "standard" grub with the default USE-flags and it works here.

Unless I have a really strange setup, I don't think using "static" for grub is 
needed anymore.

--
Joost

[gentoo-amd64] Re: About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Duncan]

Dale posted on Wed, 08 Dec 2010 23:13:21 -0600 as excerpted:

> Stan Sander wrote:

>> In addition to using grub-static, you will need to have the IA32
>> Emulation enabled in your kernel, else you won't be able to execute
>> grub at all.  It's under file formats / Emulations in the menu.

I think that's covered in the handbook, now, but posting's still good, 
just in case it would have been overlooked.  FWIW when I first switched to 
no-multilib, before I did the 32-bit chroot thing, I tried turning off 
that option in the kernel... and found I couldn't run... I think it was 
lilo I was running at the time, properly, so it's definitely worth 
remembering.

> Glad you posted this.  I looked at the USE flags for grub not a package
> called grub-static.  That seems to be two different beasts.  I never
> knew that package existed.  Would emerging the plain grub with the
> static USE flag give the same results?  I would think not else they
> would just have one package but am curious just the same.

The grub-static package is actually a pre-built grub (obviously built with 
the static USE flag), binpkged by gentoo/amd64, with an ebuild to unpack 
and install it, for those that want/need it.  With both lilo and grub, 
parts are 32-bit (or actually, 16-bit) only, as that's the mode all x86 
computers even x86_64/amd64 computers start their boot in, so that's what 
at least part of an x86 bootloader must be built in.  As such, the grub 
package remains hard-masked in the no-multilib profiles (someone at one 
point claimed it should build, but I haven't tried and am skeptical, 
especially when it's still hard-masked for no-multilib), where grub-static 
is the recommended bootloader.

But grub-static actually /is/ a binpkged grub, built on either a 32-bit 
only machine or a 64-bit machine with multilib (I'm not sure which), with 
an ebuild that simply unpacks the binpkg, and puts the files where they 
need to go when it's installed.  As such, emerging grub with the static 
and other USE flags set as in the binpkg, should get something quite 
similar, yes.  But there's some particulars there I'm not sure of (the 
boot part should be identical, but I'm not sure if the part run on a 
normally running machine gets compiled in 32-bit mode or in 64-bit mode on 
a 64-bit machine, and that could be critical), so I'm not sure whether 
it'd be an exact replacement or not.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Frank Peters]

On Thu, 9 Dec 2010 10:04:52 +0000 (UTC)
Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> wrote:

> 
> > Stan Sander wrote:
> 
> >> In addition to using grub-static, you will need to have the IA32
> >> Emulation enabled in your kernel, else you won't be able to execute
> >> grub at all.  It's under file formats / Emulations in the menu.
> 
> I think that's covered in the handbook, now, but posting's still good, 
> just in case it would have been overlooked.  FWIW when I first switched to 
> no-multilib, before I did the 32-bit chroot thing, I tried turning off 
> that option in the kernel... and found I couldn't run... I think it was 
> lilo I was running at the time, properly, so it's definitely worth 
> remembering.
> 

Lilo doesn't need the kernel at all.  I have IA32 turned off and I use
lilo to boot.  There is no problem.

Unless there is some special requirement, most people probably use grub
because of the "follow the leader" syndrome.  Lilo is still quite effective
and also quite simple.  Fortunately, the Gentoo overlords have not removed
lilo from the portage tree, but if they ever do, I will just compile it
myself.  Continuous change is not a law of the universe.  Some methods
never become obsolete (out of fashion perhaps, but fashion should never
be the final guide).

Frank Peters

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Dale]

Frank Peters wrote:
> On Thu, 9 Dec 2010 10:04:52 +0000 (UTC)
> Duncan<1i5t5.duncan@cox.net>  wrote:
>
>    
>>      
>>> Stan Sander wrote:
>>>        
>>      
>>>> In addition to using grub-static, you will need to have the IA32
>>>> Emulation enabled in your kernel, else you won't be able to execute
>>>> grub at all.  It's under file formats / Emulations in the menu.
>>>>          
>> I think that's covered in the handbook, now, but posting's still good,
>> just in case it would have been overlooked.  FWIW when I first switched to
>> no-multilib, before I did the 32-bit chroot thing, I tried turning off
>> that option in the kernel... and found I couldn't run... I think it was
>> lilo I was running at the time, properly, so it's definitely worth
>> remembering.
>>
>>      
> Lilo doesn't need the kernel at all.  I have IA32 turned off and I use
> lilo to boot.  There is no problem.
>
> Unless there is some special requirement, most people probably use grub
> because of the "follow the leader" syndrome.  Lilo is still quite effective
> and also quite simple.  Fortunately, the Gentoo overlords have not removed
> lilo from the portage tree, but if they ever do, I will just compile it
> myself.  Continuous change is not a law of the universe.  Some methods
> never become obsolete (out of fashion perhaps, but fashion should never
> be the final guide).
>
> Frank Peters
>
>    

No offense intended but I have used both lilo and grub.  I used lilo 
first and for me, it was a nightmare.  Fixing even a small typo was 
painful for me.  I switched to grub and the difference was like flying 
the space shuttle or riding a tri-cycle.  Let's remove the computers 
from the space shuttle just to make it as difficult.

I may have to use lilo one day but grub will be long dead and will not 
compile on any rig I have.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Harry Holt]

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On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 11:37 AM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:

> Frank Peters wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 9 Dec 2010 10:04:52 +0000 (UTC)
>> Duncan<1i5t5.duncan@cox.net>  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Stan Sander wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> In addition to using grub-static, you will need to have the IA32
>>>>> Emulation enabled in your kernel, else you won't be able to execute
>>>>> grub at all.  It's under file formats / Emulations in the menu.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I think that's covered in the handbook, now, but posting's still good,
>>> just in case it would have been overlooked.  FWIW when I first switched
>>> to
>>> no-multilib, before I did the 32-bit chroot thing, I tried turning off
>>> that option in the kernel... and found I couldn't run... I think it was
>>> lilo I was running at the time, properly, so it's definitely worth
>>> remembering.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Lilo doesn't need the kernel at all.  I have IA32 turned off and I use
>> lilo to boot.  There is no problem.
>>
>> Unless there is some special requirement, most people probably use grub
>> because of the "follow the leader" syndrome.  Lilo is still quite
>> effective
>> and also quite simple.  Fortunately, the Gentoo overlords have not removed
>> lilo from the portage tree, but if they ever do, I will just compile it
>> myself.  Continuous change is not a law of the universe.  Some methods
>> never become obsolete (out of fashion perhaps, but fashion should never
>> be the final guide).
>>
>> Frank Peters
>>
>>
>>
>
> No offense intended but I have used both lilo and grub.  I used lilo first
> and for me, it was a nightmare.  Fixing even a small typo was painful for
> me.  I switched to grub and the difference was like flying the space shuttle
> or riding a tri-cycle.  Let's remove the computers from the space shuttle
> just to make it as difficult.
>
> I may have to use lilo one day but grub will be long dead and will not
> compile on any rig I have.
>
> Dale
>
>
Good analogy.  My issue with grub is that when it fails, I'm stuck in a tin
can in low earth orbit and likely to burn up in the atmosphere.

Recovering from a fall off my tri-cycle is not nearly as painful.



> :-)  :-)
>
>

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Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Dale]

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Harry Holt wrote:
>
> On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 11:37 AM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com 
> <mailto:rdalek1967@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     Frank Peters wrote:
>
>         On Thu, 9 Dec 2010 10:04:52 +0000 (UTC)
>         Duncan<1i5t5.duncan@cox.net <mailto:1i5t5.duncan@cox.net>>  wrote:
>
>
>
>                 Stan Sander wrote:
>
>
>                     In addition to using grub-static, you will need to
>                     have the IA32
>                     Emulation enabled in your kernel, else you won't
>                     be able to execute
>                     grub at all.  It's under file formats / Emulations
>                     in the menu.
>
>             I think that's covered in the handbook, now, but posting's
>             still good,
>             just in case it would have been overlooked.  FWIW when I
>             first switched to
>             no-multilib, before I did the 32-bit chroot thing, I tried
>             turning off
>             that option in the kernel... and found I couldn't run... I
>             think it was
>             lilo I was running at the time, properly, so it's
>             definitely worth
>             remembering.
>
>
>         Lilo doesn't need the kernel at all.  I have IA32 turned off
>         and I use
>         lilo to boot.  There is no problem.
>
>         Unless there is some special requirement, most people probably
>         use grub
>         because of the "follow the leader" syndrome.  Lilo is still
>         quite effective
>         and also quite simple.  Fortunately, the Gentoo overlords have
>         not removed
>         lilo from the portage tree, but if they ever do, I will just
>         compile it
>         myself.  Continuous change is not a law of the universe.  Some
>         methods
>         never become obsolete (out of fashion perhaps, but fashion
>         should never
>         be the final guide).
>
>         Frank Peters
>
>
>
>     No offense intended but I have used both lilo and grub.  I used
>     lilo first and for me, it was a nightmare.  Fixing even a small
>     typo was painful for me.  I switched to grub and the difference
>     was like flying the space shuttle or riding a tri-cycle.  Let's
>     remove the computers from the space shuttle just to make it as
>     difficult.
>
>     I may have to use lilo one day but grub will be long dead and will
>     not compile on any rig I have.
>
>     Dale
>
>
> Good analogy.  My issue with grub is that when it fails, I'm stuck in 
> a tin can in low earth orbit and likely to burn up in the atmosphere.
>
> Recovering from a fall off my tri-cycle is not nearly as painful.
>
>
>     :-)  :-)
>
>

When lilo failed for me one time, I had to reinstall.  I couldn't get 
anything to work.  With grub, I just edit the boot line.  If grub 
doesn't load, boot a CD, mount the partitions and chroot in to fix it.  
I have never had to do that with grub tho.  I have no clue how to fix 
lilo tho.

Some of this is because grub has "just worked" for me and lilo was a 
pain for me.  Maybe it has changed, I don't know.  I just remember how 
it was back then.

Dale

:-)  :-)

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Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Dale]

Duncan wrote:
> Dale posted on Wed, 08 Dec 2010 23:13:21 -0600 as excerpted:
>
>    
>> Stan Sander wrote:
>>      
>    
>>> In addition to using grub-static, you will need to have the IA32
>>> Emulation enabled in your kernel, else you won't be able to execute
>>> grub at all.  It's under file formats / Emulations in the menu.
>>>        
> I think that's covered in the handbook, now, but posting's still good,
> just in case it would have been overlooked.  FWIW when I first switched to
> no-multilib, before I did the 32-bit chroot thing, I tried turning off
> that option in the kernel... and found I couldn't run... I think it was
> lilo I was running at the time, properly, so it's definitely worth
> remembering.
>
>    
>> Glad you posted this.  I looked at the USE flags for grub not a package
>> called grub-static.  That seems to be two different beasts.  I never
>> knew that package existed.  Would emerging the plain grub with the
>> static USE flag give the same results?  I would think not else they
>> would just have one package but am curious just the same.
>>      
> The grub-static package is actually a pre-built grub (obviously built with
> the static USE flag), binpkged by gentoo/amd64, with an ebuild to unpack
> and install it, for those that want/need it.  With both lilo and grub,
> parts are 32-bit (or actually, 16-bit) only, as that's the mode all x86
> computers even x86_64/amd64 computers start their boot in, so that's what
> at least part of an x86 bootloader must be built in.  As such, the grub
> package remains hard-masked in the no-multilib profiles (someone at one
> point claimed it should build, but I haven't tried and am skeptical,
> especially when it's still hard-masked for no-multilib), where grub-static
> is the recommended bootloader.
>
> But grub-static actually /is/ a binpkged grub, built on either a 32-bit
> only machine or a 64-bit machine with multilib (I'm not sure which), with
> an ebuild that simply unpacks the binpkg, and puts the files where they
> need to go when it's installed.  As such, emerging grub with the static
> and other USE flags set as in the binpkg, should get something quite
> similar, yes.  But there's some particulars there I'm not sure of (the
> boot part should be identical, but I'm not sure if the part run on a
> normally running machine gets compiled in 32-bit mode or in 64-bit mode on
> a 64-bit machine, and that could be critical), so I'm not sure whether
> it'd be an exact replacement or not.
>
>    

So the static version is like OOo-bin then?  That makes sense.  I may 
try the plain one at first and see if it works.  If not, I can switch to 
the static one.  It's not like it will take hours to install on a 4 core 
CPU running at 3.2Ghz.  lol  If I blink, I may miss it.  :/

Thanks

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-amd64] About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Stan Sander]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: Text/Plain, Size: 1245 bytes --]

Wednesday 08 December 2010


> 
> Glad you posted this.  I looked at the USE flags for grub not a package 
> called grub-static.  That seems to be two different beasts.  I never 
> knew that package existed.  Would emerging the plain grub with the 
> static USE flag give the same results?  I would think not else they 
> would just have one package but am curious just the same.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Dale

No, the static use flag in grub does not do the same thing.  If you run a no-multilib profile (in other words pure 64-bit) you need to run grub-static if you are going to use grub as a boot loader.  As Frank said, lilo is still maintained and is a viable choice.  So that's what it comes down to, your choices -- lilo or grub, multilib or no-multilib.  Personally I've run no-multilib for some time now and have not ever wished otherwise since I made the switch.  If you run a multilib profile, you can use the regular grub package (or lilo) with whatever USE flags suit your needs.  You can also use grub-static in a multilib profile.  If you select the no-multilib profile grub will be hard masked.

-- 
Stan & HD Tashi Grad 10/08  Edgewood, NM  SWR
PR - Cindy and Jenny - Sammamish, WA  NWR
http://www.sblan.net/tashi

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Re: [gentoo-amd64] About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Dale]

Stan Sander wrote:
> Wednesday 08 December 2010
>
>
>    
>> Glad you posted this.  I looked at the USE flags for grub not a package
>> called grub-static.  That seems to be two different beasts.  I never
>> knew that package existed.  Would emerging the plain grub with the
>> static USE flag give the same results?  I would think not else they
>> would just have one package but am curious just the same.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Dale
>>      
> No, the static use flag in grub does not do the same thing.  If you run a no-multilib profile (in other words pure 64-bit) you need to run grub-static if you are going to use grub as a boot loader.  As Frank said, lilo is still maintained and is a viable choice.  So that's what it comes down to, your choices -- lilo or grub, multilib or no-multilib.  Personally I've run no-multilib for some time now and have not ever wished otherwise since I made the switch.  If you run a multilib profile, you can use the regular grub package (or lilo) with whatever USE flags suit your needs.  You can also use grub-static in a multilib profile.  If you select the no-multilib profile grub will be hard masked.
>
>    

New info so a new decision.  I plan to go no-multilib so looks like I 
will be using grub-static after all.  Please disregard the post I sent a 
few seconds ago saying I would try the plain grub first.  ;-)

Still have no desire to use lilo.  lol

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-amd64] About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[J. Roeleveld]

On Wednesday 08 December 2010 23:23:18 Mark Knecht wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 1:17 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > First post here.  I'm usually on gentoo user.  I'm in the process of
> > building a new system which will be 64 bit.  I am looking for advice.  I
> > would like people to post things that I might run into that one wouldn't
> > expect and some things that are different from x86.  I was looking at
> > something on my old rig and noticed the USE flag smp.  I didn't know
> > about that until I ran up on it.  I learned something by pure dumb luck.
> > 
> > I'm a long time Gentoo user.  Installed it at the early stages of 1.4.  I
> > also use KDE and have fluxbox installed as a backup.  The processor is a
> > AMD Phenom II X4 955 @3.2Ghz.  It will start out with one 4Gb stick of
> > ram.  I plan to expand that later.
> > 
> > What are some things that I should watch for and enable that isn't so
> > obvious for someone new to 64 bit?
> > 
> > Thanks.
> > 
> > Dale
> 
> Hi Dale,
>    It's been so long since I've done anything that wasn't 64-bit so
> it's hard to answer. I think the 64-bit install guide is quite good.
> One thing that I think some folks (me included) do that differs from
> the guide (at least the last time I read it) is to use grub-static
> instead of grub. I suspect that's because it's 32-bit and more
> compatible.
> 
>    Other than that I can't think of anything I do differently.
> 
>    Best of luck with the new install. I'm sure it will go great.
> 
> Cheers,
> Mark

Hi Dale,

I run x86 on one machine (Asus EEE 901) and amd64 on all other machines.
Last time I installed, I followed the standard Gentoo guide and I didn't have 
to use "grub-static".
Not sure when this was fixed, but the current grub in portage works fine on 
64bit.

The only thing I can think of that is different is that you will need the 
nsplugin-wrapper still for some 32bit plugins to work in firefox.

--
Joost Roeleveld

Re: [gentoo-amd64] About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Dale]

J. Roeleveld wrote:
> On Wednesday 08 December 2010 23:23:18 Mark Knecht wrote:
>    
>> On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 1:17 PM, Dale<rdalek1967@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>      
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> First post here.  I'm usually on gentoo user.  I'm in the process of
>>> building a new system which will be 64 bit.  I am looking for advice.  I
>>> would like people to post things that I might run into that one wouldn't
>>> expect and some things that are different from x86.  I was looking at
>>> something on my old rig and noticed the USE flag smp.  I didn't know
>>> about that until I ran up on it.  I learned something by pure dumb luck.
>>>
>>> I'm a long time Gentoo user.  Installed it at the early stages of 1.4.  I
>>> also use KDE and have fluxbox installed as a backup.  The processor is a
>>> AMD Phenom II X4 955 @3.2Ghz.  It will start out with one 4Gb stick of
>>> ram.  I plan to expand that later.
>>>
>>> What are some things that I should watch for and enable that isn't so
>>> obvious for someone new to 64 bit?
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> Dale
>>>        
>> Hi Dale,
>>     It's been so long since I've done anything that wasn't 64-bit so
>> it's hard to answer. I think the 64-bit install guide is quite good.
>> One thing that I think some folks (me included) do that differs from
>> the guide (at least the last time I read it) is to use grub-static
>> instead of grub. I suspect that's because it's 32-bit and more
>> compatible.
>>
>>     Other than that I can't think of anything I do differently.
>>
>>     Best of luck with the new install. I'm sure it will go great.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Mark
>>      
> Hi Dale,
>
> I run x86 on one machine (Asus EEE 901) and amd64 on all other machines.
> Last time I installed, I followed the standard Gentoo guide and I didn't have
> to use "grub-static".
> Not sure when this was fixed, but the current grub in portage works fine on
> 64bit.
>
> The only thing I can think of that is different is that you will need the
> nsplugin-wrapper still for some 32bit plugins to work in firefox.
>
> --
> Joost Roeleveld
>
>    

I have Firefox installed here but mostly use Seamonkey.  I assume the 
same would apply for Seamonkey as for Firefox?

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-amd64] About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[J. Roeleveld]

On Thursday 09 December 2010 16:48:01 Dale wrote:
> J. Roeleveld wrote:
> > On Wednesday 08 December 2010 23:23:18 Mark Knecht wrote:
> >> On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 1:17 PM, Dale<rdalek1967@gmail.com>  wrote:
> >>> Hi,
> >>> 
> >>> First post here.  I'm usually on gentoo user.  I'm in the process of
> >>> building a new system which will be 64 bit.  I am looking for advice. 
> >>> I would like people to post things that I might run into that one
> >>> wouldn't expect and some things that are different from x86.  I was
> >>> looking at something on my old rig and noticed the USE flag smp.  I
> >>> didn't know about that until I ran up on it.  I learned something by
> >>> pure dumb luck.
> >>> 
> >>> I'm a long time Gentoo user.  Installed it at the early stages of 1.4. 
> >>> I also use KDE and have fluxbox installed as a backup.  The processor
> >>> is a AMD Phenom II X4 955 @3.2Ghz.  It will start out with one 4Gb
> >>> stick of ram.  I plan to expand that later.
> >>> 
> >>> What are some things that I should watch for and enable that isn't so
> >>> obvious for someone new to 64 bit?
> >>> 
> >>> Thanks.
> >>> 
> >>> Dale
> >> 
> >> Hi Dale,
> >> 
> >>     It's been so long since I've done anything that wasn't 64-bit so
> >> 
> >> it's hard to answer. I think the 64-bit install guide is quite good.
> >> One thing that I think some folks (me included) do that differs from
> >> the guide (at least the last time I read it) is to use grub-static
> >> instead of grub. I suspect that's because it's 32-bit and more
> >> compatible.
> >> 
> >>     Other than that I can't think of anything I do differently.
> >>     
> >>     Best of luck with the new install. I'm sure it will go great.
> >> 
> >> Cheers,
> >> Mark
> > 
> > Hi Dale,
> > 
> > I run x86 on one machine (Asus EEE 901) and amd64 on all other machines.
> > Last time I installed, I followed the standard Gentoo guide and I didn't
> > have to use "grub-static".
> > Not sure when this was fixed, but the current grub in portage works fine
> > on 64bit.
> > 
> > The only thing I can think of that is different is that you will need the
> > nsplugin-wrapper still for some 32bit plugins to work in firefox.
> > 
> > --
> > Joost Roeleveld
> 
> I have Firefox installed here but mostly use Seamonkey.  I assume the
> same would apply for Seamonkey as for Firefox?

I would assume so. The problem is that some (flash for instance) plugins are 
32bit only (occasionally 64, but that doesn't seem to last).

--
Joost

Re: [gentoo-amd64] About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Mateusz Arkadiusz Mierzwinski]

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Nothing much. Use like normal x86 besides:
- Kernel set to Your CPU in Processor Setttings (generic x86_64 is good for
all configurations).
- Accept keyword for "Beta"-like packages is ~amd64 not ~x86
- You don't have to set MMX flag, but set SSE, SSE2 and if Your CPU have it
- SSE3 this will optimize floating point operations.
- Enable SMP (symmetric Multiprocessing) where available - by flags.
- If it's multicore (I have Intel on my LAP so don't know about Your CPU)
set MAKEOPTS to cores count+1.
- If it's multicore try to enable threads flag - this boosts performance
even on single core cpus, but on multicore will make much difference.
- Chceck by eselect what profile of portage you have set as default. If is
not try setting some with Amd64 on path.
- When GCC upgrade check if "multilib" is set - this will enable You to link
with 32-bit libs and 64-bit (as standard).
- In kernel set ciphers and algorithms (like MD5, SHA etc) to amd64 version.

I think that's it. Everything elese should be fine.

2010/12/8 Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com>

> Hi,
>
> First post here.  I'm usually on gentoo user.  I'm in the process of
> building a new system which will be 64 bit.  I am looking for advice.  I
> would like people to post things that I might run into that one wouldn't
> expect and some things that are different from x86.  I was looking at
> something on my old rig and noticed the USE flag smp.  I didn't know about
> that until I ran up on it.  I learned something by pure dumb luck.
>
> I'm a long time Gentoo user.  Installed it at the early stages of 1.4.  I
> also use KDE and have fluxbox installed as a backup.  The processor is a AMD
> Phenom II X4 955 @3.2Ghz.  It will start out with one 4Gb stick of ram.  I
> plan to expand that later.
>
> What are some things that I should watch for and enable that isn't so
> obvious for someone new to 64 bit?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Dale
>
> :-)  :-)
>
>


-- 
Mateusz Mierzwiński

Bluebox Software http://www.blueboxsoft.pl/mateusz-mierzwinski

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Re: [gentoo-amd64] About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Dale]

Mateusz Arkadiusz Mierzwinski wrote:
> Nothing much. Use like normal x86 besides:
> - Kernel set to Your CPU in Processor Setttings (generic x86_64 is 
> good for all configurations).
> - Accept keyword for "Beta"-like packages is ~amd64 not ~x86
> - You don't have to set MMX flag, but set SSE, SSE2 and if Your CPU 
> have it - SSE3 this will optimize floating point operations.
> - Enable SMP (symmetric Multiprocessing) where available - by flags.
> - If it's multicore (I have Intel on my LAP so don't know about Your 
> CPU) set MAKEOPTS to cores count+1.
> - If it's multicore try to enable threads flag - this boosts 
> performance even on single core cpus, but on multicore will make much 
> difference.
> - Chceck by eselect what profile of portage you have set as default. 
> If is not try setting some with Amd64 on path.
> - When GCC upgrade check if "multilib" is set - this will enable You 
> to link with 32-bit libs and 64-bit (as standard).
> - In kernel set ciphers and algorithms (like MD5, SHA etc) to amd64 
> version.
>
> I think that's it. Everything elese should be fine.
>

Good tips.  I made a note of those too.  Honestly, I hadn't even thought 
about the changes needed in the kernel.  It is a 4 core CPU too.

I hope to start the install in the next few days.  I'm still waiting on 
parts to finish the build.  Post anything you can think of that might be 
handy.

Thanks much.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-amd64] About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Frank Peters]

On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 15:17:18 -0600
Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:

> 
> What are some things that I should watch for and enable that isn't so 
> obvious for someone new to 64 bit?
> 

The first thing to decide is whether or not you want a pure 64-bit
system or a 64-bit system that keeps 32-bit capability.

I am a purist.  I left 32-bit programs in the dust a long time ago.
But as a consequence there are some things that I will miss because
they are available in 32-bit packages only.  An example would be
Acroread, the PDF viewer, from Adobe.  Without Acroread, you will
only view pdf files through the 64-bit xpdf.  The Intel C++
compiler is another example.  In fact, most commercial software
that bothers to release a Linux version will do so in 32-bit
format only.

So if you need to make use of those offerings, you'll need
to keep 32-bit compatibility.

My own view is that these software developers are way behind
the times and should have long ago made their products in
a 64-bit form.  It's not that difficult to do.

Whatever the choice, pure 64-bit or 64/32, Gentoo makes it
easy.

Frank Peters

Re: [gentoo-amd64] About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Dale]

Frank Peters wrote:
> On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 15:17:18 -0600
> Dale<rdalek1967@gmail.com>  wrote:
>
>    
>> What are some things that I should watch for and enable that isn't so
>> obvious for someone new to 64 bit?
>>
>>      
> The first thing to decide is whether or not you want a pure 64-bit
> system or a 64-bit system that keeps 32-bit capability.
>
> I am a purist.  I left 32-bit programs in the dust a long time ago.
> But as a consequence there are some things that I will miss because
> they are available in 32-bit packages only.  An example would be
> Acroread, the PDF viewer, from Adobe.  Without Acroread, you will
> only view pdf files through the 64-bit xpdf.  The Intel C++
> compiler is another example.  In fact, most commercial software
> that bothers to release a Linux version will do so in 32-bit
> format only.
>
> So if you need to make use of those offerings, you'll need
> to keep 32-bit compatibility.
>
> My own view is that these software developers are way behind
> the times and should have long ago made their products in
> a 64-bit form.  It's not that difficult to do.
>
> Whatever the choice, pure 64-bit or 64/32, Gentoo makes it
> easy.
>
> Frank Peters
>
>
>    

Now I have a question.  How do I tell Gentoo to make it pure 64 or a mix 
of 32 and 64?  I have read about this but I don't think I have actually 
seen where it is set.  Is it a profile selection, USE flag or something 
else?

If I decide on one then want to switch to the other, does that require a 
reinstall or just a change in settings and a recompile of world?

Since I use KDE, I always use Okular to view pdf files.  I assume KDE is 
64 bit ready.

Thanks.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-amd64] About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Mateusz Arkadiusz Mierzwinski]

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2010/12/9 Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com>

> Frank Peters wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 15:17:18 -0600
>> Dale<rdalek1967@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> What are some things that I should watch for and enable that isn't so
>>> obvious for someone new to 64 bit?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> The first thing to decide is whether or not you want a pure 64-bit
>> system or a 64-bit system that keeps 32-bit capability.
>>
>> I am a purist.  I left 32-bit programs in the dust a long time ago.
>> But as a consequence there are some things that I will miss because
>> they are available in 32-bit packages only.  An example would be
>> Acroread, the PDF viewer, from Adobe.  Without Acroread, you will
>> only view pdf files through the 64-bit xpdf.  The Intel C++
>> compiler is another example.  In fact, most commercial software
>> that bothers to release a Linux version will do so in 32-bit
>> format only.
>>
>> So if you need to make use of those offerings, you'll need
>> to keep 32-bit compatibility.
>>
>> My own view is that these software developers are way behind
>> the times and should have long ago made their products in
>> a 64-bit form.  It's not that difficult to do.
>>
>> Whatever the choice, pure 64-bit or 64/32, Gentoo makes it
>> easy.
>>
>> Frank Peters
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> Now I have a question.  How do I tell Gentoo to make it pure 64 or a mix of
> 32 and 64?  I have read about this but I don't think I have actually seen
> where it is set.  Is it a profile selection, USE flag or something else?
>
> If I decide on one then want to switch to the other, does that require a
> reinstall or just a change in settings and a recompile of world?
>
> Since I use KDE, I always use Okular to view pdf files.  I assume KDE is 64
> bit ready.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Dale
>
> :-)  :-)
>
>
You can set it in KERNEL by disabling 32 bit application support and
recompiling GLIBC and GCC without MULTILIB ;). Try also running 32 bit app.
System is not slower or anything else wrong happens. If You drop 32-bit
support You cannot use WINE and load PE32 apps (aka Win32).

-- 
Mateusz Mierzwiński

Bluebox Software http://www.blueboxsoft.pl/mateusz-mierzwinski

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Re: [gentoo-amd64] About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Dale]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3370 bytes --]

Mateusz Arkadiusz Mierzwinski wrote:
>
>
> 2010/12/9 Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com <mailto:rdalek1967@gmail.com>>
>
>     Frank Peters wrote:
>
>         On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 15:17:18 -0600
>         Dale<rdalek1967@gmail.com <mailto:rdalek1967@gmail.com>>  wrote:
>
>
>             What are some things that I should watch for and enable
>             that isn't so
>             obvious for someone new to 64 bit?
>
>
>         The first thing to decide is whether or not you want a pure 64-bit
>         system or a 64-bit system that keeps 32-bit capability.
>
>         I am a purist.  I left 32-bit programs in the dust a long time
>         ago.
>         But as a consequence there are some things that I will miss
>         because
>         they are available in 32-bit packages only.  An example would be
>         Acroread, the PDF viewer, from Adobe.  Without Acroread, you will
>         only view pdf files through the 64-bit xpdf.  The Intel C++
>         compiler is another example.  In fact, most commercial software
>         that bothers to release a Linux version will do so in 32-bit
>         format only.
>
>         So if you need to make use of those offerings, you'll need
>         to keep 32-bit compatibility.
>
>         My own view is that these software developers are way behind
>         the times and should have long ago made their products in
>         a 64-bit form.  It's not that difficult to do.
>
>         Whatever the choice, pure 64-bit or 64/32, Gentoo makes it
>         easy.
>
>         Frank Peters
>
>
>
>
>     Now I have a question.  How do I tell Gentoo to make it pure 64 or
>     a mix of 32 and 64?  I have read about this but I don't think I
>     have actually seen where it is set.  Is it a profile selection,
>     USE flag or something else?
>
>     If I decide on one then want to switch to the other, does that
>     require a reinstall or just a change in settings and a recompile
>     of world?
>
>     Since I use KDE, I always use Okular to view pdf files.  I assume
>     KDE is 64 bit ready.
>
>     Thanks.
>
>     Dale
>
>     :-)  :-)
>
>
> You can set it in KERNEL by disabling 32 bit application support and 
> recompiling GLIBC and GCC without MULTILIB ;). Try also running 32 bit 
> app. System is not slower or anything else wrong happens. If You drop 
> 32-bit support You cannot use WINE and load PE32 apps (aka Win32).
>
> -- 
> Mateusz Mierzwiński
>
> Bluebox Software http://www.blueboxsoft.pl/mateusz-mierzwinski

I don't use Wine.  I have never heard of PE32 so I don't guess I have a 
need for it either.  lol   It sounds like I should go pure 64 bit.  
Anyone disagree with that?  Someone mentioned pdf files but I can use 
KDE's program for that as I do now.  I can use OOo as a backup too.

Also, there is no server type stuff on here and no plans to install 
any.  It's basically a desktop system built like a freaking tank.  Here 
is a link but I'm not finished yet.  I should have a couple more things 
in there in the next few days.  If you look good, you will notice why I 
can't start the install yet.  Hint, something is missing.  If you notice 
it right off, pat yourself on the back.  :-D

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/5640/201012070003cutscale.jpg

Thanks.

Dale

:-)  :-)

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Re: [gentoo-amd64] About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Florian Philipp]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2555 bytes --]

Am 09.12.2010 06:29, schrieb Dale:
> Mateusz Arkadiusz Mierzwinski wrote:
[...]
>>     Frank Peters wrote:
>>
>>         On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 15:17:18 -0600
>>         Dale<rdalek1967@gmail.com <mailto:rdalek1967@gmail.com>>  wrote:
[...]
>>             What are some things that I should watch for and enable
>>             that isn't so
>>             obvious for someone new to 64 bit?
[...]
>>         The first thing to decide is whether or not you want a pure 64-bit
>>         system or a 64-bit system that keeps 32-bit capability.
>>
>>         I am a purist.  I left 32-bit programs in the dust a long time
>>         ago.
>>         But as a consequence there are some things that I will miss
>>         because
>>         they are available in 32-bit packages only.  An example would be
>>         Acroread, the PDF viewer, from Adobe.  Without Acroread, you will
>>         only view pdf files through the 64-bit xpdf.  The Intel C++
>>         compiler is another example.  In fact, most commercial software
>>         that bothers to release a Linux version will do so in 32-bit
>>         format only.
[...]
>> You can set it in KERNEL by disabling 32 bit application support and
>> recompiling GLIBC and GCC without MULTILIB ;). Try also running 32 bit
>> app. System is not slower or anything else wrong happens. If You drop
>> 32-bit support You cannot use WINE and load PE32 apps (aka Win32).
>>
[...]
> I don't use Wine.  I have never heard of PE32 so I don't guess I have a
> need for it either.  lol   It sounds like I should go pure 64 bit. 
> Anyone disagree with that?  Someone mentioned pdf files but I can use
> KDE's program for that as I do now.  I can use OOo as a backup too. 
> [...]

Didn't you post on gentoo-user that you watch youtube videos? Well, the
currently stable version of adobe-flash (10.1.102.64) is 32bit-only.
That will change again with the next higher version in the tree but the
switch to 32bit can happen again when Adobe decides once again that it
doesn't need to fix its security bugs for amd64.

You might also want to think about pre-compiled OSS applications in
portage (`eix -- -bin`). Not all of them come in pure 64bit flavor.

AFAIK there are only two reasons to avoid a multilib setup:
1. Disk space (~230MB on my system)
2. Compile time on packages that support multilib.

I don't think either of these will be an issue for your new system ;)
IMHO the increased flexibility is well worth the effort.

Hope this helps,
Florian Philipp


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[gentoo-amd64] Re: About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Duncan]

Florian Philipp posted on Thu, 09 Dec 2010 10:48:29 +0100 as excerpted:

> Didn't you post on gentoo-user that you watch youtube videos? Well, the
> currently stable version of adobe-flash (10.1.102.64) is 32bit-only.
> That will change again with the next higher version in the tree but the
> switch to 32bit can happen again when Adobe decides once again that it
> doesn't need to fix its security bugs for amd64.

Eh, I watch youtube, but NOT using flash servantware, and using 100% 64-
bit apps.  The firefox extension I use is 1-click-youtube-downloader, but 
there are others, and other ways to watch it (including in HTML5 native 
format), if desired, without using servantware.

I always download the mp4 version, watching it using my video player of 
choice (presently smplayer).  I can then delete it if I don't like it, or 
save it if I do.  Sometimes videos disappear from youtube, you know, and 
google doesn't need to know how many times I watch my favorites, or even 
whether I consider it good enough to save or not.

IOW, particularly insecure and buggy servantware not required to view 
youtube. =:^)

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Dale]

Duncan wrote:
> Florian Philipp posted on Thu, 09 Dec 2010 10:48:29 +0100 as excerpted:
>
>    
>> Didn't you post on gentoo-user that you watch youtube videos? Well, the
>> currently stable version of adobe-flash (10.1.102.64) is 32bit-only.
>> That will change again with the next higher version in the tree but the
>> switch to 32bit can happen again when Adobe decides once again that it
>> doesn't need to fix its security bugs for amd64.
>>      
> Eh, I watch youtube, but NOT using flash servantware, and using 100% 64-
> bit apps.  The firefox extension I use is 1-click-youtube-downloader, but
> there are others, and other ways to watch it (including in HTML5 native
> format), if desired, without using servantware.
>
> I always download the mp4 version, watching it using my video player of
> choice (presently smplayer).  I can then delete it if I don't like it, or
> save it if I do.  Sometimes videos disappear from youtube, you know, and
> google doesn't need to know how many times I watch my favorites, or even
> whether I consider it good enough to save or not.
>
> IOW, particularly insecure and buggy servantware not required to view
> youtube. =:^)
>
>    

I do this the same way.  For some reason, the videos are dark when 
played through youtube or any other site for that matter.  I can 
download them and open them in smplayer and they are bright and look 
fine.  This happens in Firefox and Seamonkey.  I never have been able to 
figure why they are to dark tho.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-amd64] About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Paul Jewell]

When I installed my system back in January, I started off with 64 bit only, and immediately hit a problem with grub compilation. I switched to multilib, and the installation went smoothly. I would recommend Pappy's seeds as a starting point for kernel configuration. Even if you don't use his seed, the debian resource to identify drivers is useful. If you need a link, I'll sort it out when I get home. I have not had any issues with the multilib setup, and compared to my old AthlonXP system it flies!

Rgds.,
Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: Florian Philipp <lists@f_philipp.fastmail.net>
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2010 10:48:29 
To: <gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org>
Reply-to: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org
Subject: Re: [gentoo-amd64] About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

Am 09.12.2010 06:29, schrieb Dale:
> Mateusz Arkadiusz Mierzwinski wrote:
[...]
>>     Frank Peters wrote:
>>
>>         On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 15:17:18 -0600
>>         Dale<rdalek1967@gmail.com <mailto:rdalek1967@gmail.com>>  wrote:
[...]
>>             What are some things that I should watch for and enable
>>             that isn't so
>>             obvious for someone new to 64 bit?
[...]
>>         The first thing to decide is whether or not you want a pure 64-bit
>>         system or a 64-bit system that keeps 32-bit capability.
>>
>>         I am a purist.  I left 32-bit programs in the dust a long time
>>         ago.
>>         But as a consequence there are some things that I will miss
>>         because
>>         they are available in 32-bit packages only.  An example would be
>>         Acroread, the PDF viewer, from Adobe.  Without Acroread, you will
>>         only view pdf files through the 64-bit xpdf.  The Intel C++
>>         compiler is another example.  In fact, most commercial software
>>         that bothers to release a Linux version will do so in 32-bit
>>         format only.
[...]
>> You can set it in KERNEL by disabling 32 bit application support and
>> recompiling GLIBC and GCC without MULTILIB ;). Try also running 32 bit
>> app. System is not slower or anything else wrong happens. If You drop
>> 32-bit support You cannot use WINE and load PE32 apps (aka Win32).
>>
[...]
> I don't use Wine.  I have never heard of PE32 so I don't guess I have a
> need for it either.  lol   It sounds like I should go pure 64 bit. 
> Anyone disagree with that?  Someone mentioned pdf files but I can use
> KDE's program for that as I do now.  I can use OOo as a backup too. 
> [...]

Didn't you post on gentoo-user that you watch youtube videos? Well, the
currently stable version of adobe-flash (10.1.102.64) is 32bit-only.
That will change again with the next higher version in the tree but the
switch to 32bit can happen again when Adobe decides once again that it
doesn't need to fix its security bugs for amd64.

You might also want to think about pre-compiled OSS applications in
portage (`eix -- -bin`). Not all of them come in pure 64bit flavor.

AFAIK there are only two reasons to avoid a multilib setup:
1. Disk space (~230MB on my system)
2. Compile time on packages that support multilib.

I don't think either of these will be an issue for your new system ;)
IMHO the increased flexibility is well worth the effort.

Hope this helps,
Florian Philipp

Re: [gentoo-amd64] About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Mateusz Arkadiusz Mierzwinski]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 5510 bytes --]

Dale, I tell You one thing - choose multilib. This don't do nothing wrong.
You can use 32-bit app compatibility and this don't reduce performance of
overall system. Easyest way for Me is:

- boot minimal CD
- format drive (partitioned allready)
- fetch with links stage3 od amd64
- fetch portage
- unpack
- mounting binded dev and mounting proc, copy resolv.conf
- chroot and update environment by env-update, source
- set environment (timezone, fstab, net)
- emerge some standard packages (vixie-cron, syslog-ng, dhcp, dbus, hal,
udev) and making global system update (-uva --deep system), setting USE
flags and CXXFLAGS as needed.
- emerge lilo, genkernel, gentoo-sources
- setting genkernel with menuconfig and run kernel compilation
- configure lilo ;) and running lilo.
- reboot
- emerging rest of software - aka KDE4 - this will push all packages needed
(aka. kde-meta will take deps like xorg, mesa and else so You don't have to
worry about - enable hal flag for convenience :) ).

Done! Works for me, without any incovenience, as You see nothing strange
happens, os is working without any strange things to do. You can set now KDE
profile, it should be listed by eselect for portage optimization.

One You should do: choose lilo - it's old, it's good, it's tested.
Configuration is fast and it's up and runnning in no time. Multilib you
should set for some applications compatibility if You will fetch in future
some deb/rpm packages from third party companies.


Be aware _lastest_ available in portage flash player - it has no support for
64bit browser (i don't know why). I've needed to get downgrade by hand. Now
after each upgrade flash player must be downgraded by hand (sic!) i will
mask it in packages.mask localy ;).

That's it - pure purity (64-bit only) can make you sick later, ill tell You
;)


2010/12/9 Paul Jewell <paul@teulu.org>

> When I installed my system back in January, I started off with 64 bit only,
> and immediately hit a problem with grub compilation. I switched to multilib,
> and the installation went smoothly. I would recommend Pappy's seeds as a
> starting point for kernel configuration. Even if you don't use his seed, the
> debian resource to identify drivers is useful. If you need a link, I'll sort
> it out when I get home. I have not had any issues with the multilib setup,
> and compared to my old AthlonXP system it flies!
>
> Rgds.,
> Paul
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Florian Philipp <lists@f_philipp.fastmail.net>
> Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2010 10:48:29
> To: <gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org>
> Reply-to: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-amd64] About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice
> wanted.
>
> Am 09.12.2010 06:29, schrieb Dale:
> > Mateusz Arkadiusz Mierzwinski wrote:
> [...]
> >>     Frank Peters wrote:
> >>
> >>         On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 15:17:18 -0600
> >>         Dale<rdalek1967@gmail.com <mailto:rdalek1967@gmail.com>>
>  wrote:
> [...]
> >>             What are some things that I should watch for and enable
> >>             that isn't so
> >>             obvious for someone new to 64 bit?
> [...]
> >>         The first thing to decide is whether or not you want a pure
> 64-bit
> >>         system or a 64-bit system that keeps 32-bit capability.
> >>
> >>         I am a purist.  I left 32-bit programs in the dust a long time
> >>         ago.
> >>         But as a consequence there are some things that I will miss
> >>         because
> >>         they are available in 32-bit packages only.  An example would be
> >>         Acroread, the PDF viewer, from Adobe.  Without Acroread, you
> will
> >>         only view pdf files through the 64-bit xpdf.  The Intel C++
> >>         compiler is another example.  In fact, most commercial software
> >>         that bothers to release a Linux version will do so in 32-bit
> >>         format only.
> [...]
> >> You can set it in KERNEL by disabling 32 bit application support and
> >> recompiling GLIBC and GCC without MULTILIB ;). Try also running 32 bit
> >> app. System is not slower or anything else wrong happens. If You drop
> >> 32-bit support You cannot use WINE and load PE32 apps (aka Win32).
> >>
> [...]
> > I don't use Wine.  I have never heard of PE32 so I don't guess I have a
> > need for it either.  lol   It sounds like I should go pure 64 bit.
> > Anyone disagree with that?  Someone mentioned pdf files but I can use
> > KDE's program for that as I do now.  I can use OOo as a backup too.
> > [...]
>
> Didn't you post on gentoo-user that you watch youtube videos? Well, the
> currently stable version of adobe-flash (10.1.102.64) is 32bit-only.
> That will change again with the next higher version in the tree but the
> switch to 32bit can happen again when Adobe decides once again that it
> doesn't need to fix its security bugs for amd64.
>
> You might also want to think about pre-compiled OSS applications in
> portage (`eix -- -bin`). Not all of them come in pure 64bit flavor.
>
> AFAIK there are only two reasons to avoid a multilib setup:
> 1. Disk space (~230MB on my system)
> 2. Compile time on packages that support multilib.
>
> I don't think either of these will be an issue for your new system ;)
> IMHO the increased flexibility is well worth the effort.
>
> Hope this helps,
> Florian Philipp
>
>
>


-- 
Mateusz Mierzwiński

Bluebox Software http://www.blueboxsoft.pl/mateusz-mierzwinski

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Re: [gentoo-amd64] About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Mark Knecht]

2010/12/9 Mateusz Arkadiusz Mierzwinski <mateuszmierzwinski@gmail.com>:
> Dale, I tell You one thing - choose multilib. This don't do nothing wrong.
> You can use 32-bit app compatibility and this don't reduce performance of
> overall system.

Agreed. I think the only downside is _slightly_ slower emerge times
which with modern processors like Dale is going to use shouldn't be
much of an issue at all. I don't know of any other negative side
effects.

Cheers,
Mark

Re: [gentoo-amd64] About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Dale]

Mark Knecht wrote:
> 2010/12/9 Mateusz Arkadiusz Mierzwinski<mateuszmierzwinski@gmail.com>:
>    
>> Dale, I tell You one thing - choose multilib. This don't do nothing wrong.
>> You can use 32-bit app compatibility and this don't reduce performance of
>> overall system.
>>      
> Agreed. I think the only downside is _slightly_ slower emerge times
> which with modern processors like Dale is going to use shouldn't be
> much of an issue at all. I don't know of any other negative side
> effects.
>
> Cheers,
> Mark
>
>    

Again, things are in flux here.  You folks may have to look at time 
stamps to see where my brain is at any given point.

It sounds like I need to go multilib for now and when everything gets 
sorted out for pure 64 bit, then switch to pure 64.  I say this because 
I can switch from mulitlib to no-multilib without reinstalling.  The 
reverse is not the case and requires a re-install.  Correct?

I'm glad I came on here and asked questions now.  O_O

Dale

:-)  :-)

P. S.  I got more replies to read.  Watch me change my mind again.  lol

[gentoo-amd64] Re: About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Duncan]

Dale posted on Thu, 09 Dec 2010 10:53:02 -0600 as excerpted:

> Again, things are in flux here.  You folks may have to look at time
> stamps to see where my brain is at any given point.
> 
> It sounds like I need to go multilib for now and when everything gets
> sorted out for pure 64 bit, then switch to pure 64.  I say this because
> I can switch from mulitlib to no-multilib without reinstalling.  The
> reverse is not the case and requires a re-install.  Correct?

Correct.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-amd64] About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[J. Roeleveld]

On Thursday 09 December 2010 12:58:36 Paul Jewell wrote:
> When I installed my system back in January, I started off with 64 bit only,
> and immediately hit a problem with grub compilation. I switched to
> multilib, and the installation went smoothly. I would recommend Pappy's
> seeds as a starting point for kernel configuration. Even if you don't use
> his seed, the debian resource to identify drivers is useful. If you need a
> link, I'll sort it out when I get home. I have not had any issues with the
> multilib setup, and compared to my old AthlonXP system it flies!

Ok, that's probably why it works for me then :)
I use multilib as I prefer the flexibility and didn't have to go with grub-
static for a while now.

--
Joost Roeleveld

Re: [gentoo-amd64] About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Dale]

J. Roeleveld wrote:
> On Thursday 09 December 2010 12:58:36 Paul Jewell wrote:
>    
>> When I installed my system back in January, I started off with 64 bit only,
>> and immediately hit a problem with grub compilation. I switched to
>> multilib, and the installation went smoothly. I would recommend Pappy's
>> seeds as a starting point for kernel configuration. Even if you don't use
>> his seed, the debian resource to identify drivers is useful. If you need a
>> link, I'll sort it out when I get home. I have not had any issues with the
>> multilib setup, and compared to my old AthlonXP system it flies!
>>      
> Ok, that's probably why it works for me then :)
> I use multilib as I prefer the flexibility and didn't have to go with grub-
> static for a while now.
>
> --
> Joost Roeleveld
>
>
>    

I'm thinking, AT THE MOMENT, of going multilib and grub-static.  That 
way down the road, I can switch to no-multilib and not have to reinstall 
grub.  To simple huh?

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-amd64] About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Mark Knecht]

On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 8:55 AM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
<SNIP>
>
> I'm thinking, AT THE MOMENT, of going multilib and grub-static.  That way
> down the road, I can switch to no-multilib and not have to reinstall grub.
>  To simple huh?
>
> Dale

Sounds like things are still in flux somewhere. ;-) ;-)

I think multilib for now is really best. Once I thought I'd do what
you outline above. After a while I decided I'm not using my computer
to make a political statement and why change. It's not important to me
and 32-bit support gives you options even if you don't use them.

There are other things that haven't been discussed like running a
chroot with 32-bit or VMWare running 32-bit Windows. I have no idea
how the multilib/no-multilib thing effects those and why do I care?

I certainly don't remember any problems specifically caused by
multilib bringing down a 64-bit system so why not run it?

You'll be happy.

- Mark

Re: [gentoo-amd64] About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Alex Alexander]

On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 18:55, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm thinking, AT THE MOMENT, of going multilib and grub-static.  That way
> down the road, I can switch to no-multilib and not have to reinstall grub.
>  To simple huh?
>
> Dale
>
> :-)  :-)
>
>

There's absolutely no reason for you not to use multilib.

Why waste the opportunity to run 32bit applications? You'll never
regret running multilib, infact you'll soon forget it. If, on the
other hand, you choose to run no-multilib, one day you'll have to run
a 32bit app (that day will come, simple Murphy laws) and you'll have
to set up a 32bit chroot for it :)

Grub is *not* an issue, I've never used grub-static on any amd64
system, sys-boot/grub works great. Lilo works, yes, but it really is
old tech. Grub's interactive boot menu is invaluable and can save you
when something goes wrong.

Don't forget that the current multilib implementation doesn't compile
things twice. It just provides the environment and 32bit libraries
required for 32bit applications to build and run. Anything that
supports 64bit builds and runs as 64bit, period :)

-- 
Alex Alexander | wired
+ Gentoo Linux Developer
++ www.linuxized.com

Re: [gentoo-amd64] About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Dale]

Alex Alexander wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 18:55, Dale<rdalek1967@gmail.com>  wrote:
>    
>> I'm thinking, AT THE MOMENT, of going multilib and grub-static.  That way
>> down the road, I can switch to no-multilib and not have to reinstall grub.
>>   To simple huh?
>>
>> Dale
>>
>> :-)  :-)
>>
>>
>>      
> There's absolutely no reason for you not to use multilib.
>
> Why waste the opportunity to run 32bit applications? You'll never
> regret running multilib, infact you'll soon forget it. If, on the
> other hand, you choose to run no-multilib, one day you'll have to run
> a 32bit app (that day will come, simple Murphy laws) and you'll have
> to set up a 32bit chroot for it :)
>
> Grub is *not* an issue, I've never used grub-static on any amd64
> system, sys-boot/grub works great. Lilo works, yes, but it really is
> old tech. Grub's interactive boot menu is invaluable and can save you
> when something goes wrong.
>
> Don't forget that the current multilib implementation doesn't compile
> things twice. It just provides the environment and 32bit libraries
> required for 32bit applications to build and run. Anything that
> supports 64bit builds and runs as 64bit, period :)
>
>    

I'm working on installing the GUI part now.  I did go multilib for now.  
This should work better until everything works with 64 bit.  I sure 
would hate to run into a problem with something I have to have and then 
have to reinstall all this again.

I did go with grub-static.  Plain grub pulled in something HUGE.  This 
is one less program to have to deal with.

Thanks.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-amd64] About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Frank Peters]

On Thu, 9 Dec 2010 11:58:36 +0000
"Paul Jewell" <paul@teulu.org> wrote:

> When I installed my system back in January, I started off with 64 bit
> only, and immediately hit a problem with grub compilation.

Why not just use lilo?  Lilo doesn't need the kernel to boot the
system and it compiles on pure 64-bit systems.

I hate to proselytize, but it seems to me that grub has been pushed
into the Linux world without merit.  Lilo does the job just as well.

Frank Peters

Re: [gentoo-amd64] About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Harry Holt]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 579 bytes --]

On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 10:27 AM, Frank Peters <frank.peters@comcast.net>wrote:

> On Thu, 9 Dec 2010 11:58:36 +0000
> "Paul Jewell" <paul@teulu.org> wrote:
>
> > When I installed my system back in January, I started off with 64 bit
> > only, and immediately hit a problem with grub compilation.
>
> Why not just use lilo?  Lilo doesn't need the kernel to boot the
> system and it compiles on pure 64-bit systems.
>
> I hate to proselytize, but it seems to me that grub has been pushed
> into the Linux world without merit.  Lilo does the job just as well.
>

Frank Peters
>
>
+1

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Re: [gentoo-amd64] About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Lie Ryan]

On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 2:27 AM, Frank Peters <frank.peters@comcast.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 9 Dec 2010 11:58:36 +0000
> "Paul Jewell" <paul@teulu.org> wrote:
>
>> When I installed my system back in January, I started off with 64 bit
>> only, and immediately hit a problem with grub compilation.
>
> Why not just use lilo?  Lilo doesn't need the kernel to boot the
> system and it compiles on pure 64-bit systems.
>
> I hate to proselytize, but it seems to me that grub has been pushed
> into the Linux world without merit.  Lilo does the job just as well.

What's the advantage of LILO nowadays? I used grub because of two
reasons: 1) I don't need to re-install the MBR when changing grub's
.conf file and 2) I can edit configuration at boot time, useful when
you messed up your grub.conf. Last time I checked (admittedly long
time ago) LILO cannot do both of these. Granted, I've never used LILO,
does it boot faster or runs on more platforms or is there any
particular reason why you used it?

Re: [gentoo-amd64] About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Frank Peters]

On Fri, 10 Dec 2010 04:04:50 +1100
Lie Ryan <lie.1296@gmail.com> wrote:

> 
> What's the advantage of LILO nowadays? I used grub because of two
> reasons: 1) I don't need to re-install the MBR when changing grub's
> .conf file and 2) I can edit configuration at boot time, useful when
> you messed up your grub.conf. Last time I checked (admittedly long
> time ago) LILO cannot do both of these. Granted, I've never used LILO,
> does it boot faster or runs on more platforms or is there any
> particular reason why you used it?
> 

For one thing, it is completely independent of the kernel and some
were expressing concerns about compatibility with 64-bit.

Lilo is also simpler, but it is not as versatile as grub.

My point is not that lilo is an advantage, but that it should not
be overlooked by those who may not require a complex set-up.
The trend seems to be to trash everything in favour of grub.

The legacy boot method is being slowly eliminated and will be
replaced by EFI.  For this there is elilo, which I hope to be
using.

Frank Peters

Re: [gentoo-amd64] About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Harry Holt]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2003 bytes --]

On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Frank Peters <frank.peters@comcast.net>wrote:

> On Fri, 10 Dec 2010 04:04:50 +1100
> Lie Ryan <lie.1296@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > What's the advantage of LILO nowadays? I used grub because of two
> > reasons: 1) I don't need to re-install the MBR when changing grub's
> > .conf file and 2) I can edit configuration at boot time, useful when
> > you messed up your grub.conf. Last time I checked (admittedly long
> > time ago) LILO cannot do both of these. Granted, I've never used LILO,
> > does it boot faster or runs on more platforms or is there any
> > particular reason why you used it?
> >
>
> For one thing, it is completely independent of the kernel and some
> were expressing concerns about compatibility with 64-bit.
>
> Lilo is also simpler, but it is not as versatile as grub.
>
> My point is not that lilo is an advantage, but that it should not
> be overlooked by those who may not require a complex set-up.
> The trend seems to be to trash everything in favour of grub.
>
> The legacy boot method is being slowly eliminated and will be
> replaced by EFI.  For this there is elilo, which I hope to be
> using.
>
> Frank Peters
>
>
Yes, simplicity is why I have continued to stick with lilo (since 1995).  It
just always has worked.  There's nothing more frustrating for me than trying
to boot a machine and being presented with a

grub >

and having no clue what went wrong or where to go (although, yes, that's
because of experience with lilo - and lack of it with grub).  I did try to
use grub for a time when it became popular, but after my first experience
with it trying to recover from a failed boot I gave up.

The main advantage to me - why I started using it - was that it plays well
with the Windows loader.  I don't do those kind of dual-boot machines
anymore, but it was very convenient being able to recover a Windows boot
manager - or install a new one - and all I had to do to get back to my Linux
boot was edit the BOOT.INI file.

... HH

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Re: [gentoo-amd64] About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Mark Knecht]

>
> Now I have a question.  How do I tell Gentoo to make it pure 64 or a mix of
> 32 and 64?  I have read about this but I don't think I have actually seen
> where it is set.  Is it a profile selection, USE flag or something else?
>

It's a profile choice. Here's a FAQ link that discusses it.

http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/gentoo-amd64-faq.xml

Thing is it's sort of a choice you want to make once and not change in
the future, or so I'm told.


> If I decide on one then want to switch to the other, does that require a
> reinstall or just a change in settings and a recompile of world?
>
> Since I use KDE, I always use Okular to view pdf files.  I assume KDE is 64
> bit ready.

Absolutely 64-bit ready. I'm in it right now. ;-)

- Mark

Re: [gentoo-amd64] About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Frank Peters]

On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 18:26:00 -0600
Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:

> 
> Now I have a question.  How do I tell Gentoo to make it pure 64 or a mix 
> of 32 and 64?  I have read about this but I don't think I have actually 
> seen where it is set.  Is it a profile selection, USE flag or something 
> else?
> 

You have to make a symbolic link, /etc/make.profile, to a particular
profile in /usr/share/portage/profiles, i.e. either the multilib (64/32)
or the no-multilib (64-bit) profile.  Also, the USE flag "multilib"
indicates to the compiler that both 32-bit and 64-bit libraries should
be built.

Check the Gentoo manual for all the details.  You'd best get used to
reading the manual early.  Everything is in there.


> If I decide on one then want to switch to the other, does that require a 
> reinstall or just a change in settings and a recompile of world?

I'm not sure.  It's best to check the manual.

Frank Peters

[gentoo-amd64] Re: About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Duncan]

Frank Peters posted on Wed, 08 Dec 2010 20:54:37 -0500 as excerpted:

> You have to make a symbolic link, /etc/make.profile, to a particular
> profile in /usr/share/portage/profiles, i.e. either the multilib (64/32)
> or the no-multilib (64-bit) profile.  Also, the USE flag "multilib"
> indicates to the compiler that both 32-bit and 64-bit libraries should
> be built.

The newer way to do it is to use eselect profile.  AFAIK that's what the 
manual says to do now days as well.  But all that does is (with list) list 
the suitable profiles, so you don't get mixed up and select a stub that's 
not intended to be used directly, and (with set) set the symlink one used 
to set manually.

But that's something only an old-timer that was also keeping reasonably 
updated with the current manual and/or automated way of doing things could 
be expected to know.  Otherwise, old timers can continue setting the 
symlink manually as they always did, and newbies might very well not 
understand that all it is is a symlink after all, in the first place.

I'm sure it /does/ categorize me as cranky old-timer, but I must admit to 
feeling a bit sad about that loss of "bare metal" configuring knowledge, 
amongst the newbies.  Oh, well, at least the graphical installer project 
got hung up somewhere along the way and isn't considered viable any more.  
To many of us old-timer Gentooers, that was SACRILEGE!  There's /supposed/ 
to be a bit of an entry barrier with Gentoo, as it never was meant as a 
hand-holding distribution, and the graphical installer... just didn't fit 
with what Gentoo /is/ (or at least used to be... and I can't say I'm sad 
to see it hewing to its roots once again).

> Check the Gentoo manual for all the details.  You'd best get used to
> reading the manual early.  Everything is in there.

Dale's been a Gentoo (x86) user for some time and with me is one of the 
few Gentoo users active on the KDE lists.  So he should (/should/, see the 
above lament about the graphical installer, etc, but I /think/ he does) 
know all about the handbook.  He's only new to amd64.

That said, strongly agreed with the sentiment.  Anybody who neglects the 
handbook or only reads the install section is doing themselves a HUGE 
disservice, making the going on Gentoo **FAR** harder than it needs to be, 
for sure.  That certainly applies to experienced folks as well, 
particularly when they're doing a new install, as things change over the 
years, and one can save themselves a LOT of trouble by re-familiarizing 
themselves with the handbook on occasion, with a new install being about 
as good an occasion as they come, /especially/ when it's to a new arch, as 
is the case here.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-amd64] About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Dale]

Frank Peters wrote:
> On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 18:26:00 -0600
> Dale<rdalek1967@gmail.com>  wrote:
>
>    
>> Now I have a question.  How do I tell Gentoo to make it pure 64 or a mix
>> of 32 and 64?  I have read about this but I don't think I have actually
>> seen where it is set.  Is it a profile selection, USE flag or something
>> else?
>>
>>      
> You have to make a symbolic link, /etc/make.profile, to a particular
> profile in /usr/share/portage/profiles, i.e. either the multilib (64/32)
> or the no-multilib (64-bit) profile.  Also, the USE flag "multilib"
> indicates to the compiler that both 32-bit and 64-bit libraries should
> be built.
>
> Check the Gentoo manual for all the details.  You'd best get used to
> reading the manual early.  Everything is in there.
>
>
>    
>> If I decide on one then want to switch to the other, does that require a
>> reinstall or just a change in settings and a recompile of world?
>>      
> I'm not sure.  It's best to check the manual.
>
> Frank Peters
>
>    

I know about the profiles.  I been running Gentoo a while.  It's just 
been x86 to this point.  When I run eselect list profile, nothing 64 bit 
shows up at all.  I guess this is because of my settings in make.conf 
tho.  Since I can't see the FULL list, I had to ask.  Could someone post 
the output of eselect list profile from a 64 bit system?  That would 
clear up some muddy water for me.

I'm making notes on all this.  I hope to get it right on the first 
install.  ;-)

Thanks.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-amd64] About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Thomas M]

On Wednesday 08 December 2010 9:18:30 pm Dale wrote:
> Frank Peters wrote:
> > On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 18:26:00 -0600
> > 
> > Dale<rdalek1967@gmail.com>  wrote:
> >> Now I have a question.  How do I tell Gentoo to make it pure 64 or a mix
> >> of 32 and 64?  I have read about this but I don't think I have actually
> >> seen where it is set.  Is it a profile selection, USE flag or something
> >> else?
> > 
> > You have to make a symbolic link, /etc/make.profile, to a particular
> > profile in /usr/share/portage/profiles, i.e. either the multilib (64/32)
> > or the no-multilib (64-bit) profile.  Also, the USE flag "multilib"
> > indicates to the compiler that both 32-bit and 64-bit libraries should
> > be built.
> > 
> > Check the Gentoo manual for all the details.  You'd best get used to
> > reading the manual early.  Everything is in there.
> > 
> >> If I decide on one then want to switch to the other, does that require a
> >> reinstall or just a change in settings and a recompile of world?
> > 
> > I'm not sure.  It's best to check the manual.
> > 
> > Frank Peters
> 
> I know about the profiles.  I been running Gentoo a while.  It's just
> been x86 to this point.  When I run eselect list profile, nothing 64 bit
> shows up at all.  I guess this is because of my settings in make.conf
> tho.  Since I can't see the FULL list, I had to ask.  Could someone post
> the output of eselect list profile from a 64 bit system?  That would
> clear up some muddy water for me.
> 
> I'm making notes on all this.  I hope to get it right on the first
> install.  ;-)
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Dale
> 
> :-)  :-)

I think profile lists are dependent on which stage3 you install: x86 or amd64. 
I think the reason you don't see amd64 profile right now is because you 
currently don't have amd64 stage3 yet in your PC. I could be wrong though.

I personally run multilib. 

$ eselect profile list
Available profile symlink targets:
  [1]   default/linux/amd64/10.0
  [2]   default/linux/amd64/10.0/desktop
  [3]   default/linux/amd64/10.0/desktop/gnome
  [4]   default/linux/amd64/10.0/desktop/kde *
  [5]   default/linux/amd64/10.0/developer
  [6]   default/linux/amd64/10.0/no-multilib
  [7]   default/linux/amd64/10.0/server
  [8]   hardened/linux/amd64
  [9]   hardened/linux/amd64/no-multilib
  [10]  selinux/2007.0/amd64
  [11]  selinux/2007.0/amd64/hardened
  [12]  selinux/v2refpolicy/amd64
  [13]  selinux/v2refpolicy/amd64/desktop
  [14]  selinux/v2refpolicy/amd64/developer
  [15]  selinux/v2refpolicy/amd64/hardened
  [16]  selinux/v2refpolicy/amd64/server

Thomas

Re: [gentoo-amd64] About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Dale]

Thomas M wrote:
> On Wednesday 08 December 2010 9:18:30 pm Dale wrote:
>    
>> Frank Peters wrote:
>>      
>>> On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 18:26:00 -0600
>>>
>>> Dale<rdalek1967@gmail.com>   wrote:
>>>        
>>>> Now I have a question.  How do I tell Gentoo to make it pure 64 or a mix
>>>> of 32 and 64?  I have read about this but I don't think I have actually
>>>> seen where it is set.  Is it a profile selection, USE flag or something
>>>> else?
>>>>          
>>> You have to make a symbolic link, /etc/make.profile, to a particular
>>> profile in /usr/share/portage/profiles, i.e. either the multilib (64/32)
>>> or the no-multilib (64-bit) profile.  Also, the USE flag "multilib"
>>> indicates to the compiler that both 32-bit and 64-bit libraries should
>>> be built.
>>>
>>> Check the Gentoo manual for all the details.  You'd best get used to
>>> reading the manual early.  Everything is in there.
>>>
>>>        
>>>> If I decide on one then want to switch to the other, does that require a
>>>> reinstall or just a change in settings and a recompile of world?
>>>>          
>>> I'm not sure.  It's best to check the manual.
>>>
>>> Frank Peters
>>>        
>> I know about the profiles.  I been running Gentoo a while.  It's just
>> been x86 to this point.  When I run eselect list profile, nothing 64 bit
>> shows up at all.  I guess this is because of my settings in make.conf
>> tho.  Since I can't see the FULL list, I had to ask.  Could someone post
>> the output of eselect list profile from a 64 bit system?  That would
>> clear up some muddy water for me.
>>
>> I'm making notes on all this.  I hope to get it right on the first
>> install.  ;-)
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Dale
>>
>> :-)  :-)
>>      
> I think profile lists are dependent on which stage3 you install: x86 or amd64.
> I think the reason you don't see amd64 profile right now is because you
> currently don't have amd64 stage3 yet in your PC. I could be wrong though.
>
> I personally run multilib.
>
> $ eselect profile list
> Available profile symlink targets:
>    [1]   default/linux/amd64/10.0
>    [2]   default/linux/amd64/10.0/desktop
>    [3]   default/linux/amd64/10.0/desktop/gnome
>    [4]   default/linux/amd64/10.0/desktop/kde *
>    [5]   default/linux/amd64/10.0/developer
>    [6]   default/linux/amd64/10.0/no-multilib
>    [7]   default/linux/amd64/10.0/server
>    [8]   hardened/linux/amd64
>    [9]   hardened/linux/amd64/no-multilib
>    [10]  selinux/2007.0/amd64
>    [11]  selinux/2007.0/amd64/hardened
>    [12]  selinux/v2refpolicy/amd64
>    [13]  selinux/v2refpolicy/amd64/desktop
>    [14]  selinux/v2refpolicy/amd64/developer
>    [15]  selinux/v2refpolicy/amd64/hardened
>    [16]  selinux/v2refpolicy/amd64/server
>
> Thomas
>
>    

I figured it was something like that.  I also know now that the kde 
profile is multilib too.  I figured it was.  I'm learning.

Thanks.

Dale

:-)  :-)

[gentoo-amd64] Re: About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Duncan]

Dale posted on Wed, 08 Dec 2010 23:18:30 -0600 as excerpted:

> Could someone post the
> output of eselect list profile from a 64 bit system?

I did already.  Our posts probably crossed on the list, but if you didn't 
see that message, ask for it again and I can repost.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

[gentoo-amd64] Re: About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Duncan]

Dale posted on Wed, 08 Dec 2010 18:26:00 -0600 as excerpted:

> Frank Peters wrote:
>> On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 15:17:18 -0600
>> Dale<rdalek1967@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>
>>> What are some things that I should watch for and enable that isn't so
>>> obvious for someone new to 64 bit?
>>>
>> The first thing to decide is whether or not you want a pure 64-bit
>> system or a 64-bit system that keeps 32-bit capability.
>>
>> I am a purist.  I left 32-bit programs in the dust a long time ago. But
>> as a consequence there are some things that I will miss because they
>> are available in 32-bit packages only.

> Now I have a question.  How do I tell Gentoo to make it pure 64 or a mix
> of 32 and 64?  I have read about this but I don't think I have actually
> seen where it is set.  Is it a profile selection, USE flag or something
> else?
> 
> If I decide on one then want to switch to the other, does that require a
> reinstall or just a change in settings and a recompile of world?
> 
> Since I use KDE, I always use Okular to view pdf files.  I assume KDE is
> 64 bit ready.

Welcome to 64-bit, Dale! (We both post follow a couple kde lists as well 
as certain other gentoo lists, and kde is definitely 64-bit ready, as I 
too run a 64-bit-only profile. =:^)

Frank had my thought, but of course my posts tend to beat details to 
death, so here goes...

First thing, know that an amd64 (aka x86_64, including Intel and Via 64-
bit x86, NOT just AMD) system can run either 32-bit or 64-bit in hardware, 
natively.  Which you decide to do for your system is your decision -- on 
Gentoo, you can build and run from x86 (32-bit) profiles or amd64 (64-bit) 
profiles.  If you run 64-bit/amd64, you have a second choice, multilib, 
which makes running 32-bit programs on a normally 64-bit profile easy, or 
no-multilib, profiles that are 64-bit only.  Both Frank and I have chosen 
the no-multilib profile.

However, note that it's still possible to do a 32-bit x86 profile chroot 
build on an otherwise amd64 no-multilib profile machine, it's just more 
work, as now you're effectively building much of the system twice, once 
for amd64 no-multilib and once for the x86 chroot.  However, despite the 
extra work, in some ways this is closer to what some might call the pure 
"Gentoo way", because it remains the only way to build /everything/ from 
source, both 32-bit and 64-bit.  (Multilib uses pre-built 32-bit binaries, 
emul-linux-86x-* packages for many libraries and *-bin, example firefox-
bin, for selected 32-bit binaries, while building only 64-bit for most 
stuff.  However, multilib does build 32-bit and 64-bit for a few critical 
toolchain packages like the glibc system library, gcc, portage's sandbox, 
etc.)  There's a couple reasons you might want to do this, as covered 
below.

Which you may /want/ to run is an interesting question.  Certainly, 32-bit 
is most compatible with as Frank says, generally legacy and mostly closed 
source software.  On archs other than x86 (ppc, mips, etc), there's often 
a definite advantage to staying 32-bit, except for perhaps the kernel 
itself and maybe one or two really huge memory sucking things like 
databases and their dependencies, because 32-bit code is smaller (memory 
addresses double their size to 64-bit on 64-bit) and there's little 
instruction-set difference between the bitness variants of the arch, so 32-
bit userspace conserves memory and is simpler. Still, once one gets to 4 
gig of RAM, a 64-bit kernel is preferred (even tho, on Linux x86 at least, 
a 32-bit kernel can make use of upto 64 gig of RAM, at significant loss of 
efficiency), and similarly, once apps (like big databases) start using 
gigs of memory for a single app, it's time to go 64-bit.  Thus, it's 
common on other archs (and an option, tho not fully supported, on gentoo/
amd64) to have a 64-bit kernel, 32-bit userspace, profile, as well as full 
32-bit and full 64-bit kernel and userspace.

However, on x86, the 32-bit instruction-set has a number of weaknesses, 
chief among them being an extremely limited set of available CPU 
registers, that the 64-bit instruction set corrects -- there are many more 
available registers in 64-bit mode.  For this reason, on x86, the ordinary 
negatives of going full 64-bit are reasonably balanced out by the 
positives of the less limited instruction set, with the result being that 
the 64-bit kernel-space, 32-bit userland model is *FAR* less common.  As I 
said, there's an option (profile) available for it on Gentoo, but it's not 
considered supported.  Most folks go either full 64-bit (tho with multilib, 
which is supported and in fact the Gentoo default) or stay with 32-bit 
only.

So your first choice is whether you want to stick with a standard 32-bit-
only x86 install on your new 64-bit-capable system, or whether you're 
ready to go 64-bit.  Presumably, you'll go 64-bit kernel /and/ userland, 
and that's what the rest of this post assumes.

With that decision out of the way, one now has to decide between a multilib 
and a no-multilib profile.  A multilib profile is the default, but both 
Frank and I have chosen no-multilib as we prefer full 64-bit systems 
without the complications of the 32-bit multilib, and we don't have apps 
that require 32-bit compatibility be maintained.  (I won't speak for 
Frank, but I'm sure from seeing my posts in the kde lists and elsewhere 
that you know I cannot and will-not install servantware, in the context of 
my sig.  Since binary-only servantware is what most of the remaining 32-
bit only Linux software is, and I cannot and will not install it, that 
leaves me far freer to consider a no-multilib profile, as I'm not bound to 
some old 32-bit-binary-only software like some servant bound to his 
master.  My choices are mine and I'm /not/ telling you what to do -- 
that's your decision, but at the same time, my feelings are quite strong 
on the subject and you're reading my post -- they come with the territory.)

As I said, multilib is the Gentoo default, in part because the same 
multilib-based stages can be used to build both multilib and no-multilib 
systems, depending on the profile chosen.  As long as the system is 
multilib, you have the choice of switching profiles, rebuilding, and going 
nomultilib, but once you've switched to nomultilib and rebuild the 
toolchain (gcc, glibc, etc), it loses the capacity to build the 32-bit 
side, and the only (easy, well, "easy" in relative terms) way back to 
multilib is to start with a new multilib stage tarball and rebuild.  So in 
that regard, going no-multilib is a one-way decision.  You can make it at 
any time as long as you are still multilib, but once no-multilib, you 
can't so easily go back.

That said, there /are/ certain complexities and negatives to multilib.  
One is simply the time involved to build already long-build toolchain 
packages, glibc and gcc especially, since effectively you're building them 
twice, once for 32-bit and once for 64-bit.  Another is the previously 
mentioned not-quite-the-normal-gentoo-way of multilib, with all the pre-
built binaries of emul-linux-x86-* (for libs) and *-bin (for 
executables).  Those builds by definition have way more generic CFLAGS, 
USE flags, etc, than what one may well have if they built them from source.

Third, due to its complexity, multilib is somewhat brittle, and because 
most stuff builds as 64-bit only, it's possible for the 32-bit toolchain 
side to break and remain broken for some time before its detected, then 
you suddenly find yourself without an easy way to upgrade your toolchain 
(glibc, gcc, sandbox, binutils, for the most part), since multilib will 
try to build both, and the 32-bit side is broken.  Not to scare you as 
multilib *IS* supported and there are (semi-complex, sometimes involving 
extracting files or whole packages from a stage tarball -- 
FEATURES=buildpkg can help avoid that, BTW) ways out of this bind, that 
people can help you with if you find yourself in this situation, and 
certainly, the on-the-edge ~amd64 and sometimes still hard-masked-for-
testing stuff that I tend to run made me more susceptible to this than 
many, but it was after about the third time of having this happen to me, 
that I decided, since I didn't need 32-bit compatibility anyway, I might 
as well do away with the headache and go full no-multilib.  That was 
definitely one of my better decisions; one I've certainly not regretted.  
Since then I've appreciated both the lower-complexity/better-robustness 
and the faster build-times of no-multilib, and as I said, since I don't 
run the servantware that tends to be about the only software left that's 
32-bit only, there wasn't any compatibility issues at all to worry about, 
here.

Meanwhile, what about that 32-bit chroot option I mentioned?  Actually, 
there's a whole properly documented Gentoo guide for that, and it's sort 
of special case, so I'll skip the details on it, but I'll describe enough 
about it so you have some idea why you might want to run one and how it 
works.

As it happens, I do actually run one here, tho not for the normal reason, 
better 32-bit compatibility.  Rather, I have a 32-bit-only Atom based 
netbook that I run Gentoo on as well.  But my 64-bit system is 
sufficiently beefier than the Atom, that I saw no reason to have that puny 
single-core Atom with only a gig and a half of memory and a single drive 
toiling away for days to build its system or update, say KDE, when I could 
do the same thing in hours, on a 32-bit chroot build-image on my main 
machine.  So that's what I use the 32-bit chroot for, as the build-image 
for my Atom based netbook.  I have a custom scripted SSH and rsync setup 
to keep the necessary parts of the two systems synced (the netbook doesn't 
even have a portage tree on it, I mount it into the chroot on my main 
machine, tho I do keep the package database on both the build image and 
the netbook, for backup purposes), and the 32-bit chroot build image on 
the main machine is the way I handled building and now handle updates on 
my Gentoo based netbook. =:^)

But whether you use it for something like that, or need better or more 
proper "gentoo-like" 32-bit support than multilib gives you, the basic 
idea is that you setup a chroot, unpack a normal 32-bit x86 tarball onto 
it, selectively mount parts of your main 64-bit system into the chroot, 
and then build /most/ of a 32-bit system as you normally would.  If you're 
using it as a build-image for another system, as I do, you build stuff 
like syslog, cron, an appropriate 32-bit kernel, etc, too.  But if you're 
only using it for better 32-bit support than multilib gives you on your 
main 64-bit system, you can skip stuff like that, since the 32-bit chroot 
still uses the system kernel and services from its 64-bit host.

If you /do/ decide to run a 32-bit chroot, it takes care of the 32-bit 
compatibility stuff better than multilib does, so running no-multilib on 
the main system makes sense.  One /possible/ exception to that might be 
the servantware graphics drivers, since on a multilib system they'll build 
both 32-bit and 64-bit interfaces and must be built against the system 
kernel.  Gamers in particular may be concerned about that.  However, I'm 
unsure of that, since as already mentioned, servantware including 
servantware graphics drivers isn't a viable option for me, so others are 
certainly better qualified to answer questions in that area if it's a 
concern.

Finally, to answer your multilib question directly, it's a profile 
setting.  Once you are setting up your 64-bit system, have the stage 
tarball installed, and get to the point of selecting your profile, eselect 
profile list should do just that, list available profile choices, 
including no-multilib.  For reference, here's what I get listed here, with 
the no-multilib option starred, indicating it's active.  (Note that as 
I've been no-multilib for some time and no longer have a multilib 
toolchain, most of these aren't viable options for me after all, but this 
is the list a fresh installing user might be able to choose.)

$ eselect profile list
Available profile symlink targets:
  [1]   default/linux/amd64/10.0
  [2]   default/linux/amd64/10.0/desktop
  [3]   default/linux/amd64/10.0/desktop/gnome
  [4]   default/linux/amd64/10.0/desktop/kde
  [5]   default/linux/amd64/10.0/developer
  [6]   default/linux/amd64/10.0/no-multilib *
  [7]   default/linux/amd64/10.0/server
  [8]   hardened/linux/amd64
  [9]   hardened/linux/amd64/no-multilib
  [10]  selinux/2007.0/amd64
  [11]  selinux/2007.0/amd64/hardened
  [12]  selinux/v2refpolicy/amd64
  [13]  selinux/v2refpolicy/amd64/desktop
  [14]  selinux/v2refpolicy/amd64/developer
  [15]  selinux/v2refpolicy/amd64/hardened
  [16]  selinux/v2refpolicy/amd64/server
$ 

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Dale]

Duncan wrote:
> Dale posted on Wed, 08 Dec 2010 18:26:00 -0600 as excerpted:
>
>    
>> Frank Peters wrote:
>>      
>>> On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 15:17:18 -0600
>>> Dale<rdalek1967@gmail.com>   wrote:
>>>
>>>        
>>>> What are some things that I should watch for and enable that isn't so
>>>> obvious for someone new to 64 bit?
>>>>
>>>>          
>>> The first thing to decide is whether or not you want a pure 64-bit
>>> system or a 64-bit system that keeps 32-bit capability.
>>>
>>> I am a purist.  I left 32-bit programs in the dust a long time ago. But
>>> as a consequence there are some things that I will miss because they
>>> are available in 32-bit packages only.
>>>        
>    
>> Now I have a question.  How do I tell Gentoo to make it pure 64 or a mix
>> of 32 and 64?  I have read about this but I don't think I have actually
>> seen where it is set.  Is it a profile selection, USE flag or something
>> else?
>>
>> If I decide on one then want to switch to the other, does that require a
>> reinstall or just a change in settings and a recompile of world?
>>
>> Since I use KDE, I always use Okular to view pdf files.  I assume KDE is
>> 64 bit ready.
>>      
> Welcome to 64-bit, Dale! (We both post follow a couple kde lists as well
> as certain other gentoo lists, and kde is definitely 64-bit ready, as I
> too run a 64-bit-only profile. =:^)
>
> Frank had my thought, but of course my posts tend to beat details to
> death, so here goes...
>
> First thing, know that an amd64 (aka x86_64, including Intel and Via 64-
> bit x86, NOT just AMD) system can run either 32-bit or 64-bit in hardware,
> natively.  Which you decide to do for your system is your decision -- on
> Gentoo, you can build and run from x86 (32-bit) profiles or amd64 (64-bit)
> profiles.  If you run 64-bit/amd64, you have a second choice, multilib,
> which makes running 32-bit programs on a normally 64-bit profile easy, or
> no-multilib, profiles that are 64-bit only.  Both Frank and I have chosen
> the no-multilib profile.
>
> However, note that it's still possible to do a 32-bit x86 profile chroot
> build on an otherwise amd64 no-multilib profile machine, it's just more
> work, as now you're effectively building much of the system twice, once
> for amd64 no-multilib and once for the x86 chroot.  However, despite the
> extra work, in some ways this is closer to what some might call the pure
> "Gentoo way", because it remains the only way to build /everything/ from
> source, both 32-bit and 64-bit.  (Multilib uses pre-built 32-bit binaries,
> emul-linux-86x-* packages for many libraries and *-bin, example firefox-
> bin, for selected 32-bit binaries, while building only 64-bit for most
> stuff.  However, multilib does build 32-bit and 64-bit for a few critical
> toolchain packages like the glibc system library, gcc, portage's sandbox,
> etc.)  There's a couple reasons you might want to do this, as covered
> below.
>
> Which you may /want/ to run is an interesting question.  Certainly, 32-bit
> is most compatible with as Frank says, generally legacy and mostly closed
> source software.  On archs other than x86 (ppc, mips, etc), there's often
> a definite advantage to staying 32-bit, except for perhaps the kernel
> itself and maybe one or two really huge memory sucking things like
> databases and their dependencies, because 32-bit code is smaller (memory
> addresses double their size to 64-bit on 64-bit) and there's little
> instruction-set difference between the bitness variants of the arch, so 32-
> bit userspace conserves memory and is simpler. Still, once one gets to 4
> gig of RAM, a 64-bit kernel is preferred (even tho, on Linux x86 at least,
> a 32-bit kernel can make use of upto 64 gig of RAM, at significant loss of
> efficiency), and similarly, once apps (like big databases) start using
> gigs of memory for a single app, it's time to go 64-bit.  Thus, it's
> common on other archs (and an option, tho not fully supported, on gentoo/
> amd64) to have a 64-bit kernel, 32-bit userspace, profile, as well as full
> 32-bit and full 64-bit kernel and userspace.
>
> However, on x86, the 32-bit instruction-set has a number of weaknesses,
> chief among them being an extremely limited set of available CPU
> registers, that the 64-bit instruction set corrects -- there are many more
> available registers in 64-bit mode.  For this reason, on x86, the ordinary
> negatives of going full 64-bit are reasonably balanced out by the
> positives of the less limited instruction set, with the result being that
> the 64-bit kernel-space, 32-bit userland model is *FAR* less common.  As I
> said, there's an option (profile) available for it on Gentoo, but it's not
> considered supported.  Most folks go either full 64-bit (tho with multilib,
> which is supported and in fact the Gentoo default) or stay with 32-bit
> only.
>
> So your first choice is whether you want to stick with a standard 32-bit-
> only x86 install on your new 64-bit-capable system, or whether you're
> ready to go 64-bit.  Presumably, you'll go 64-bit kernel /and/ userland,
> and that's what the rest of this post assumes.
>
> With that decision out of the way, one now has to decide between a multilib
> and a no-multilib profile.  A multilib profile is the default, but both
> Frank and I have chosen no-multilib as we prefer full 64-bit systems
> without the complications of the 32-bit multilib, and we don't have apps
> that require 32-bit compatibility be maintained.  (I won't speak for
> Frank, but I'm sure from seeing my posts in the kde lists and elsewhere
> that you know I cannot and will-not install servantware, in the context of
> my sig.  Since binary-only servantware is what most of the remaining 32-
> bit only Linux software is, and I cannot and will not install it, that
> leaves me far freer to consider a no-multilib profile, as I'm not bound to
> some old 32-bit-binary-only software like some servant bound to his
> master.  My choices are mine and I'm /not/ telling you what to do --
> that's your decision, but at the same time, my feelings are quite strong
> on the subject and you're reading my post -- they come with the territory.)
>
> As I said, multilib is the Gentoo default, in part because the same
> multilib-based stages can be used to build both multilib and no-multilib
> systems, depending on the profile chosen.  As long as the system is
> multilib, you have the choice of switching profiles, rebuilding, and going
> nomultilib, but once you've switched to nomultilib and rebuild the
> toolchain (gcc, glibc, etc), it loses the capacity to build the 32-bit
> side, and the only (easy, well, "easy" in relative terms) way back to
> multilib is to start with a new multilib stage tarball and rebuild.  So in
> that regard, going no-multilib is a one-way decision.  You can make it at
> any time as long as you are still multilib, but once no-multilib, you
> can't so easily go back.
>
> That said, there /are/ certain complexities and negatives to multilib.
> One is simply the time involved to build already long-build toolchain
> packages, glibc and gcc especially, since effectively you're building them
> twice, once for 32-bit and once for 64-bit.  Another is the previously
> mentioned not-quite-the-normal-gentoo-way of multilib, with all the pre-
> built binaries of emul-linux-x86-* (for libs) and *-bin (for
> executables).  Those builds by definition have way more generic CFLAGS,
> USE flags, etc, than what one may well have if they built them from source.
>
> Third, due to its complexity, multilib is somewhat brittle, and because
> most stuff builds as 64-bit only, it's possible for the 32-bit toolchain
> side to break and remain broken for some time before its detected, then
> you suddenly find yourself without an easy way to upgrade your toolchain
> (glibc, gcc, sandbox, binutils, for the most part), since multilib will
> try to build both, and the 32-bit side is broken.  Not to scare you as
> multilib *IS* supported and there are (semi-complex, sometimes involving
> extracting files or whole packages from a stage tarball --
> FEATURES=buildpkg can help avoid that, BTW) ways out of this bind, that
> people can help you with if you find yourself in this situation, and
> certainly, the on-the-edge ~amd64 and sometimes still hard-masked-for-
> testing stuff that I tend to run made me more susceptible to this than
> many, but it was after about the third time of having this happen to me,
> that I decided, since I didn't need 32-bit compatibility anyway, I might
> as well do away with the headache and go full no-multilib.  That was
> definitely one of my better decisions; one I've certainly not regretted.
> Since then I've appreciated both the lower-complexity/better-robustness
> and the faster build-times of no-multilib, and as I said, since I don't
> run the servantware that tends to be about the only software left that's
> 32-bit only, there wasn't any compatibility issues at all to worry about,
> here.
>
> Meanwhile, what about that 32-bit chroot option I mentioned?  Actually,
> there's a whole properly documented Gentoo guide for that, and it's sort
> of special case, so I'll skip the details on it, but I'll describe enough
> about it so you have some idea why you might want to run one and how it
> works.
>
> As it happens, I do actually run one here, tho not for the normal reason,
> better 32-bit compatibility.  Rather, I have a 32-bit-only Atom based
> netbook that I run Gentoo on as well.  But my 64-bit system is
> sufficiently beefier than the Atom, that I saw no reason to have that puny
> single-core Atom with only a gig and a half of memory and a single drive
> toiling away for days to build its system or update, say KDE, when I could
> do the same thing in hours, on a 32-bit chroot build-image on my main
> machine.  So that's what I use the 32-bit chroot for, as the build-image
> for my Atom based netbook.  I have a custom scripted SSH and rsync setup
> to keep the necessary parts of the two systems synced (the netbook doesn't
> even have a portage tree on it, I mount it into the chroot on my main
> machine, tho I do keep the package database on both the build image and
> the netbook, for backup purposes), and the 32-bit chroot build image on
> the main machine is the way I handled building and now handle updates on
> my Gentoo based netbook. =:^)
>
> But whether you use it for something like that, or need better or more
> proper "gentoo-like" 32-bit support than multilib gives you, the basic
> idea is that you setup a chroot, unpack a normal 32-bit x86 tarball onto
> it, selectively mount parts of your main 64-bit system into the chroot,
> and then build /most/ of a 32-bit system as you normally would.  If you're
> using it as a build-image for another system, as I do, you build stuff
> like syslog, cron, an appropriate 32-bit kernel, etc, too.  But if you're
> only using it for better 32-bit support than multilib gives you on your
> main 64-bit system, you can skip stuff like that, since the 32-bit chroot
> still uses the system kernel and services from its 64-bit host.
>
> If you /do/ decide to run a 32-bit chroot, it takes care of the 32-bit
> compatibility stuff better than multilib does, so running no-multilib on
> the main system makes sense.  One /possible/ exception to that might be
> the servantware graphics drivers, since on a multilib system they'll build
> both 32-bit and 64-bit interfaces and must be built against the system
> kernel.  Gamers in particular may be concerned about that.  However, I'm
> unsure of that, since as already mentioned, servantware including
> servantware graphics drivers isn't a viable option for me, so others are
> certainly better qualified to answer questions in that area if it's a
> concern.
>
> Finally, to answer your multilib question directly, it's a profile
> setting.  Once you are setting up your 64-bit system, have the stage
> tarball installed, and get to the point of selecting your profile, eselect
> profile list should do just that, list available profile choices,
> including no-multilib.  For reference, here's what I get listed here, with
> the no-multilib option starred, indicating it's active.  (Note that as
> I've been no-multilib for some time and no longer have a multilib
> toolchain, most of these aren't viable options for me after all, but this
> is the list a fresh installing user might be able to choose.)
>
> $ eselect profile list
> Available profile symlink targets:
>    [1]   default/linux/amd64/10.0
>    [2]   default/linux/amd64/10.0/desktop
>    [3]   default/linux/amd64/10.0/desktop/gnome
>    [4]   default/linux/amd64/10.0/desktop/kde
>    [5]   default/linux/amd64/10.0/developer
>    [6]   default/linux/amd64/10.0/no-multilib *
>    [7]   default/linux/amd64/10.0/server
>    [8]   hardened/linux/amd64
>    [9]   hardened/linux/amd64/no-multilib
>    [10]  selinux/2007.0/amd64
>    [11]  selinux/2007.0/amd64/hardened
>    [12]  selinux/v2refpolicy/amd64
>    [13]  selinux/v2refpolicy/amd64/desktop
>    [14]  selinux/v2refpolicy/amd64/developer
>    [15]  selinux/v2refpolicy/amd64/hardened
>    [16]  selinux/v2refpolicy/amd64/server
> $
>
>    

I read the whole post and it explained a lot.  I think you read my mind 
and posted the list of profiles available too.  I asked for that in 
another reply and when I hit send, I saw your replies.  There was the 
list of profiles.  You got ESP or do us Gentooers think alike?  lol

I'm liking the option you are using.  It seems clean and simple.  Is #4 
no-multilib or multilib?  I suspect it is multi.  I ask because as you 
already know I use KDE and I also use the kde profile in x86.  The stuff 
8 and below are way over my head.  I'm not even thinking of going into 
that area.  ;-)

I do have nvidia video cards.  I assume the nvidia-drivers package will 
work fine with no-multilib?  The way I am reading things it will but I 
do want drivers that work.

Thanks.

Dale

:-)  :-)

[gentoo-amd64] Re: About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Duncan]

Dale posted on Thu, 09 Dec 2010 00:11:20 -0600 as excerpted:

>> $ eselect profile list
>> Available profile symlink targets:
>>    [1]   default/linux/amd64/10.0
>>    [2]   default/linux/amd64/10.0/desktop
>>    [3]   default/linux/amd64/10.0/desktop/gnome
>>    [4]   default/linux/amd64/10.0/desktop/kde
>>    [5]   default/linux/amd64/10.0/developer
>>    [6]   default/linux/amd64/10.0/no-multilib *
>>    [7]   default/linux/amd64/10.0/server
>>    [8]   hardened/linux/amd64
>>    [9]   hardened/linux/amd64/no-multilib
>>    [10]  selinux/2007.0/amd64
>>    [11]  selinux/2007.0/amd64/hardened
>>    [12]  selinux/v2refpolicy/amd64
>>    [13]  selinux/v2refpolicy/amd64/desktop
>>    [14]  selinux/v2refpolicy/amd64/developer
>>    [15]  selinux/v2refpolicy/amd64/hardened
>>    [16]  selinux/v2refpolicy/amd64/server
>> $
>>
>>
>>    
> I read the whole post and it explained a lot.  I think you read my mind
> and posted the list of profiles available too.  I asked for that in
> another reply and when I hit send, I saw your replies.  There was the
> list of profiles.  You got ESP or do us Gentooers think alike?  lol

=:^)

> I'm liking the option you are using.  It seems clean and simple.  Is #4
> no-multilib or multilib?  I suspect it is multi.  I ask because as you
> already know I use KDE and I also use the kde profile in x86.  The stuff
> 8 and below are way over my head.  I'm not even thinking of going into
> that area.  ;-)

Yeah, hardened/selinux are rather different, and not something I've gotten 
into either.

#4 (the kde profile) is indeed multilib, as is the general desktop profile 
(#2).  However, the difference other than multilib/no-multilib specifics 
is simply that a number of USE flags are turned on by default in those 
profiles.  So if you either have gotten your set of USE flags pretty well 
specified in make.conf regardless of the defaults already, or know what 
you want well enough to scan USE flags as you build the system and set 
them accordingly, that's not a big deal.

In fact, presuming that in general you want the same sort of USE flags you 
have now, what you might wish to do is run an emerge --info, and compare 
the USE flags it spits out with what's in your make.conf, adding what's 
missing there.  (You might want to run an emerge -N @world then, and 
resolve any differences, which presuming you do that routinely already, 
would be only those packages that have USE defaults that are now contrary 
to your new specific flags.)   Then you can pretty much simply copy those 
USE flags over to the new system when you're setting it up, and I believe 
it'll complain then (next emerge) about anything that's masked in your new 
amd64 profile, so you can resolve it.

Actually, that's pretty close to what I did only going the other way, when 
I built my 32-bit chroot image for my netbook.  I pretty much copied all 
my portage settings over, making changes where I needed to, and let it go 
to work.  Obviously I needed to change C(XX)FLAGS, ACCEPT_KEYWORDS, CHOST, 
and a couple of the filesystem paths, but pretty much everything else, 
definitely including USE flags, stayed pretty much as it was.  (I think I 
changed a couple USE flags I decided I didn't need on the netbook, and 
obviously, I changed some of the use-expand vars like VIDEO_CARDS, etc, to 
match the new hardware.)

I don't know what portage you're using, but I'm using the (still masked) 
2.2.0_alphaX series in ordered to have set support, as I used that 
originally for kde4.  However, as I was setting up my 32-bit chroot, I 
decided it would be easiest to categorize and split up my world file into 
several purpose-descriptive sets, as I already had kde split up.

Thus I now have (jed is my initials, I use them so if I copy sets from 
elsewhere, I know which I've customized and which not, obviously they're 
all customized now):

$ cat /var/lib/portage/world_sets 
@jed.admin
@jed.bible
@jed.dev
@jed.fonts
@jed.kde.base.kdeartwork
@jed.kde.base.kdebase.apps
@jed.kde.base.kdebase.runtime
@jed.kde.base.kdebase.workspace
@jed.kde.base.kdegames
@jed.kde.base.kdegraphics
@jed.kde.base.kdemultimedia
@jed.kde.base.kdeoptional
@jed.kde.base.kdepim
@jed.kde.base.kdetoys
@jed.kde.base.kdeutils
@jed.kde.misc
@jed.kde.plasmoids
@jed.media
@jed.misc
@jed.net
@jed.portage
@jed.utils
@jed.xorg
$ 

My world file itself is entirely empty, as I've categorized everything 
into those sets.

Sorting everything into sets like that made it far easier to copy them 
over for the new machine, then go thru each one, one at a time, and decide 
which packages I wanted on the new machine and which I didn't need.  I now 
edit the appropriate set instead of adding things to my world file.

(More precisely, I have portage set to use --oneshot by default, so it 
doesn't add them automatically.  If I want to test something for a short 
period, I can thus simply emerge it, and it'll be listed in the next 
emerge -a --depclean I run, routinely after every upgrade, as a reminder 
that it's not permanent yet and wasn't automatically checked for upgrades 
as it's not in the world file.  If I then decide it's worth testing some 
more, I use emerge --noreplace, to add it to the world file but not to 
sets.  Then I check the world file periodically and either move entries to 
the appropriate set or delete them, depending on whether I've decided that 
package is worth keeping around or not.  But as I like to keep things 
clean, having something stuck in world instead of in a set bothers me, and 
nothing stays there for long, so the world file itself /is/ usually 
entirely empty.  And my world file /is/ empty ATM as it usually is, so the 
above statement is correct.)

So if you're using a portage with set support already, consider doing 
likewise.  If the list is ultimately going to be nearly the same anyway, 
handling it that way sure beats merging only what you remember now, and 
having to merge additional packages as you miss them as time goes on.  It 
also sure beats trying to wade thru an unsorted world file! =:^)

> I do have nvidia video cards.  I assume the nvidia-drivers package will
> work fine with no-multilib?  The way I am reading things it will but I
> do want drivers that work.

Again I'm not really the one to ask on that as it's servantware, but 
AFAIK, it does.  It just compiles only the 64-bit stuff if you don't have 
multilib, where the 32-bit stuff is only to support 32-bit only apps, 
primarily games, so if you're already considering no-multilib as you don't 
have 32-bit-only software (including games) to worry about, then you 
shouldn't miss the 32-bit stuff the nvidia driver would compile either.

Meanwhile, /have/ you tried the nouveau drivers recently, with a new 
kernel (the newer the better, 2.6.36 or 2.6.37-rc) and new mesa (7.9's 
good) and xorg-server (1.9.2)?  I imagine the servantware drivers will 
remain best for folks doing games for some time, but if you're not 
particularly into gaming, as it sounds like may be the case, and 
especially for older hardware that nVidia's not supporting in the current 
drivers anyway, how well /is/ nouveau doing?  I ask because I really don't 
know, but surely, at some point, it's gotta get good enough at least for 
non-gamers to be worth considering instead of the hassle of having to 
rebuild the servantware drivers every time you update the kernel.  But I 
don't know.  Does it support twinview and all that yet?

If you or anyone else have tried it recently, I'd /love/ to know how 
well... or poorly as the case may be... it's doing these days, at least 
for basic kde desktop effects accel, etc.  And since I already know you're 
a Gentoo AND a KDE user, and that you do tend to run pretty fresh kde... 
if I remember correctly, well newer that what's unmasked to stable... now 
that I know you have the hardware to try it with, as well...

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Frank Peters]

On Thu, 09 Dec 2010 00:11:20 -0600
Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:

> 
> I do have nvidia video cards.  I assume the nvidia-drivers package will 
> work fine with no-multilib?  The way I am reading things it will but I 
> do want drivers that work.
> 

Don't forget about the stock nv driver that is supplied by Xorg.  It may
not have 3D acceleration but it will perform very well for most common
activities.  Both work as no-multilib.

I set up my system in a way that allows me to start X with either the
nv or the proprietary nvidia driver.  For normal activities, which is
most of the time, I use nv, but there are some occasions when I require
the full power of the proprietary nvidia.

Frank Peters

[gentoo-amd64] Re: About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Duncan]

Frank Peters posted on Thu, 09 Dec 2010 10:36:29 -0500 as excerpted:

> On Thu, 09 Dec 2010 00:11:20 -0600
> Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>> I do have nvidia video cards.  I assume the nvidia-drivers package will
>> work fine with no-multilib?  The way I am reading things it will but I
>> do want drivers that work.
>> 
>> 
> Don't forget about the stock nv driver that is supplied by Xorg.  It may
> not have 3D acceleration but it will perform very well for most common
> activities.  Both work as no-multilib.
> 
> I set up my system in a way that allows me to start X with either the nv
> or the proprietary nvidia driver.  For normal activities, which is most
> of the time, I use nv, but there are some occasions when I require the
> full power of the proprietary nvidia.

FWIW and heads-up:  The nv driver has been partially supported by nVidia 
in the past, mostly as a driver that can be run long enough for users to 
get to the nVidia site and download the nVidia driver.  However, they've 
announced its deprecation, and that they won't be updating it any longer.  
Officially, nVidia says users can switch to the also unaccelerated vesa 
driver if needed, but they don't mention the nouveau driver.  The word is, 
however, that the nouveau driver is already better than the nv driver and 
that distributions were starting to ship it anyway, to the point that it 
really didn't make that much sense for nVidia to continue supporting the nv 
driver.

So do consider switching, at least as you upgrade.  It's probably not 
ready to switch to for folks on 100% stable just yet, but as stable 
upgrades, it should be.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Dale]

Duncan wrote:
> Frank Peters posted on Thu, 09 Dec 2010 10:36:29 -0500 as excerpted:
>
>    
>> On Thu, 09 Dec 2010 00:11:20 -0600
>> Dale<rdalek1967@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>
>>
>>      
>>> I do have nvidia video cards.  I assume the nvidia-drivers package will
>>> work fine with no-multilib?  The way I am reading things it will but I
>>> do want drivers that work.
>>>
>>>
>>>        
>> Don't forget about the stock nv driver that is supplied by Xorg.  It may
>> not have 3D acceleration but it will perform very well for most common
>> activities.  Both work as no-multilib.
>>
>> I set up my system in a way that allows me to start X with either the nv
>> or the proprietary nvidia driver.  For normal activities, which is most
>> of the time, I use nv, but there are some occasions when I require the
>> full power of the proprietary nvidia.
>>      
> FWIW and heads-up:  The nv driver has been partially supported by nVidia
> in the past, mostly as a driver that can be run long enough for users to
> get to the nVidia site and download the nVidia driver.  However, they've
> announced its deprecation, and that they won't be updating it any longer.
> Officially, nVidia says users can switch to the also unaccelerated vesa
> driver if needed, but they don't mention the nouveau driver.  The word is,
> however, that the nouveau driver is already better than the nv driver and
> that distributions were starting to ship it anyway, to the point that it
> really didn't make that much sense for nVidia to continue supporting the nv
> driver.
>
> So do consider switching, at least as you upgrade.  It's probably not
> ready to switch to for folks on 100% stable just yet, but as stable
> upgrades, it should be.
>
>    

I'll keep that in mind.  I have heard of the driver but been waiting on 
it to "develop" some more.  It looks to me like nvidia would just give 
out some specs and let the community do it.  They could always tell them 
what they can't release publicly to keep the competition from getting a 
heads up.

I have a fellow Gentooer that sent me a video card.  The word snail mail 
is coming to mind.  With the holidays and all, it may be next week 
before it gets here.  I went to a local puter shop and picked up a used 
ATI card to do the install with.  I'm going to run memtest and such 
first anyway.   I just hope this card will work well enough for this.  I 
have never used a ATI card before.  If it can put text on the screen for 
me, I'm happy.

Funny thing is, the guy shipped the video card two or three days before 
Newegg shipped the DVD drive.  UPS will be here very shortly with the 
DVD drive.  lol  I told you snail mail was coming to mind here.  lol

Hoping to get started here shortly.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Thanasis]

on 12/09/2010 06:13 AM Duncan wrote the following:
> Meanwhile, what about that 32-bit chroot option I mentioned?  Actually, 
> there's a whole properly documented Gentoo guide for that, and it's sort 
> of special case, so I'll skip the details on it, but I'll describe enough 
> about it so you have some idea why you might want to run one and how it 
> works.
Could you point to that gentoo guide about that 32-bit chroot on a
no-multilib host please?

[gentoo-amd64] Re: About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Duncan]

Thanasis posted on Fri, 10 Dec 2010 14:54:53 +0200 as excerpted:

> on 12/09/2010 06:13 AM Duncan wrote the following:
>> Meanwhile, what about that 32-bit chroot option I mentioned?  Actually,
>> there's a whole properly documented Gentoo guide for that, and it's
>> sort of special case, so I'll skip the details on it, but I'll describe
>> enough about it so you have some idea why you might want to run one and
>> how it works.
> Could you point to that gentoo guide about that 32-bit chroot on a
> no-multilib host please?

It's linked from the gentoo/amd64 project page, which is probably worth 
bookmarking (or remembering, easy enough once you know it's there) on its 
own:

http://amd64.gentoo.org

But here's a direct 32-bit chroot HOWTO link:

http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/amd64/howtos/chroot.xml

There's a number of other useful links on the project page, as well, 
including the gentoo/amd64 FAQ:

http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/gentoo-amd64-faq.xml

And I won't link them directly here, but for those running into -fPIC 
errors (as used to be common as *.so libs need it on amd64), there's a 
developer's howto on fixing those, and also a listing of the contents of 
each of the emul-linux-x86-* packages, for multilib folks that need a 32-
bit library but don't know for sure which emul* package it's in.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-amd64] About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Alex Schuster]

Dale writes:

> What are some things that I should watch for and enable that isn't so
> obvious for someone new to 64 bit?

If you are running databases like mysql, you need to export the databases 
and import them later. This is because they are in binary format, and the 
datatypes are different in x86 and amd64 world.

	Wonko

Re: [gentoo-amd64] About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Dale]

Alex Schuster wrote:
> Dale writes:
>
>    
>> What are some things that I should watch for and enable that isn't so
>> obvious for someone new to 64 bit?
>>      
> If you are running databases like mysql, you need to export the databases
> and import them later. This is because they are in binary format, and the
> datatypes are different in x86 and amd64 world.
>
> 	Wonko
>
>
>    

I don't have anything that I generated anyway.  I have something 
installed that KDE pulled in if I recall correctly.  I'll let KDE start 
off fresh tho.

This does bring me to another thought tho.  Would I be able to copy my 
/home directory over from a x86 system?  I'm thinking I would but want 
to make sure.

Thanks

Dale

:-)  :-)

[gentoo-amd64] Re: About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Duncan]

Dale posted on Wed, 08 Dec 2010 23:21:53 -0600 as excerpted:

> Alex Schuster wrote:

>> If you are running databases like mysql, you need to export the
>> databases and import them later. This is because they are in binary
>> format, and the datatypes are different in x86 and amd64 world.

> I don't have anything that I generated anyway.  I have something
> installed that KDE pulled in if I recall correctly.  I'll let KDE start
> off fresh tho.
> 
> This does bring me to another thought tho.  Would I be able to copy my
> /home directory over from a x86 system?  I'm thinking I would but want
> to make sure.

In general, the same /home should be fine, 32-bit or 64-bit.

However, kde4 uses a database for akonadi.  With older versions (thru 4.3 
at least), it was mysql by default.  Newer versions (from 4.5) use sqlite 
by default, tho there can be a bit of an issue trying to upgrade as the 
ebuild tries to default to sqlite, but the user config is still set to 
mysql.  If mysql is still on the system, it'll use it since that's what 
was (automatically) configured in user settings, but if it's cleaned off 
as a now unneeded dependency, akonadi would of course fail, until the 
user's configure is (manually) updated.  Of course, new-installs or new-
users wouldn't have the issue as they'd not have that bit of existing 
config.  I don't recall for sure whether it was 4.4 or 4.5 that switched, 
thus the gap above, but the sqlite dependency is FAR easier to deal with, 
now that they've worked thru the threading issues or whatever it was that 
was blocking its use earlier.

I wasn't aware of a 32/64 mysql database incompatibility, but assuming 
Alex is correct, you might experience issues with that mysql/akonadi 
dependency, if you're still using an older kde or if you migrate the same 
home (with the mysql config) over.  But as long as you either don't use 
akonadi (with 4.4/4.5 it's used for the address book but not for kmail 
itself; I don't know about kopete/etc as I don't do IRC/IM), or already 
have it configured for the sqlite backend, and aren't using mysql for 
anything else, you should be fine.

And even in the event that you're still using the mysql backend, at worst, 
akonadi only caches the data before its written to traditional text files, 
so any loss of data should be only what didn't get written back to the 
permanent storage. tho of course it might not be working for a bit as you 
get the config squared away.

Basically, then, as from what I recall you're following newer kde, 4.5.x, 
and not waiting for full Gentoo stabilization, I'd ensure that you're 
using the sqlite backend, not mysql, before you copy your home dir over, 
and then you should be fine.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Florian Philipp]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1718 bytes --]

Am 09.12.2010 10:33, schrieb Duncan:
> Dale posted on Wed, 08 Dec 2010 23:21:53 -0600 as excerpted:
> 
>> Alex Schuster wrote:
> 
>>> If you are running databases like mysql, you need to export the
>>> databases and import them later. This is because they are in binary
>>> format, and the datatypes are different in x86 and amd64 world.
> 
>> I don't have anything that I generated anyway.  I have something
>> installed that KDE pulled in if I recall correctly.  I'll let KDE start
>> off fresh tho.
>>
>> This does bring me to another thought tho.  Would I be able to copy my
>> /home directory over from a x86 system?  I'm thinking I would but want
>> to make sure.
> 
> In general, the same /home should be fine, 32-bit or 64-bit.
> 
> However, kde4 uses a database for akonadi.  With older versions (thru 4.3 
> at least), it was mysql by default.
[...]

Same issue with Amarok.

> 
> I wasn't aware of a 32/64 mysql database incompatibility, but assuming 
> Alex is correct, you might experience issues with that mysql/akonadi 
> dependency, if you're still using an older kde or if you migrate the same 
> home (with the mysql config) over.  But as long as you either don't use 
> akonadi (with 4.4/4.5 it's used for the address book but not for kmail 
> itself; I don't know about kopete/etc as I don't do IRC/IM), or already 
> have it configured for the sqlite backend, and aren't using mysql for 
> anything else, you should be fine.
> 

So sqlite does not have any compatibility issues? I tried searching for
it for a moment but could not find anything so I guess, no. If it has
issues, you also have to think about the sqlite database in Firefox,
Seamonkey etc.


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[gentoo-amd64] Re: About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Duncan]

Florian Philipp posted on Thu, 09 Dec 2010 11:12:36 +0100 as excerpted:

>> However, kde4 uses a database for akonadi.  With older versions (thru
>> 4.3 at least), it was mysql by default.
> [...]
> 
> Same issue with Amarok.

Thanks for the reminder.  I'd forgotten about amarok, as I got disgusted 
with it awhile back, when they basically decided their amd64 users didn't 
matter (the embedded mysql lib they were using was broken on amd64, and it 
wasn't exactly an unknown break, either, they simply didn't care about 
such users enough to stop them from making it mandatory), and switched to 
something (mpd, with several front-ends, still less bloated than amarok) 
far less bloated and more in tune with my needs anyway.  Of course, it 
didn't help that they'd dumped most of the features I found likable in the 
kde3 version, only to add more bloat I found nothing but useless to the 
kde4 version, either, but it was the utter unconcern about their kde4 amd64 
users, when kde3 was already no longer supported by kde itself (and was on 
its way out for Gentoo) that was the last straw for me.

But yes, amarok requires mysql too, unfortunately.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Dale]

Duncan wrote:
> Florian Philipp posted on Thu, 09 Dec 2010 11:12:36 +0100 as excerpted:
>
>    
>>> However, kde4 uses a database for akonadi.  With older versions (thru
>>> 4.3 at least), it was mysql by default.
>>>        
>> [...]
>>
>> Same issue with Amarok.
>>      
> Thanks for the reminder.  I'd forgotten about amarok, as I got disgusted
> with it awhile back, when they basically decided their amd64 users didn't
> matter (the embedded mysql lib they were using was broken on amd64, and it
> wasn't exactly an unknown break, either, they simply didn't care about
> such users enough to stop them from making it mandatory), and switched to
> something (mpd, with several front-ends, still less bloated than amarok)
> far less bloated and more in tune with my needs anyway.  Of course, it
> didn't help that they'd dumped most of the features I found likable in the
> kde3 version, only to add more bloat I found nothing but useless to the
> kde4 version, either, but it was the utter unconcern about their kde4 amd64
> users, when kde3 was already no longer supported by kde itself (and was on
> its way out for Gentoo) that was the last straw for me.
>
> But yes, amarok requires mysql too, unfortunately.
>
>    

I can do this then.  I'll just copy everything on /home over EXCEPT the 
.kde directory.  I don't have anything in there anyway.  I use Seamonkey 
for email so as long as I have .mozilla, I'm good to go.  Heck, I may 
just copy .mozilla over and let the rest go.  Well, I need my Documents 
folder too.

Looks like this was simple enough to solve.  Just leave .kde behind at 
least.  No worries.  Wish the multilib issue was this simple.  o_O

Dale

:-)  :-)

[gentoo-amd64] Re: About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Duncan]

Dale posted on Thu, 09 Dec 2010 11:03:56 -0600 as excerpted:

> I can do this then.  I'll just copy everything on /home over EXCEPT the
> .kde directory.  I don't have anything in there anyway.  I use Seamonkey
> for email so as long as I have .mozilla, I'm good to go.  Heck, I may
> just copy .mozilla over and let the rest go.  Well, I need my Documents
> folder too.
> 
> Looks like this was simple enough to solve.  Just leave .kde behind at
> least.  No worries.  Wish the multilib issue was this simple.  o_O

Seems to be good.

Depending on how much customizing you do to your kde (and mozilla), you 
can try copying them over too.  If anything breaks, you know what to 
"uncopy". =:^/  But it might be easier to do that and find what to uncopy 
if necessary, then re-customize everything, at least if you're as heavy a 
customizer as I am.  And worst-case, you simply erase that bit and start 
clean.

Meanwhile, for the akonadi stuff at least, there's a bit of config 
outside .kde.  I'm not /exactly/ sure of the default location as I've 
changed enough stuff around here to never be sure, but I /believe/ that 
bit is in ~/.config/<something> by default.  (Maybe .config/akonadi/ ?)

But if you don't use kmail, kontact or kopete either, it may be that 
you'll never notice an akonadi issue even if there is one.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Alex Schuster]

Duncan writes:

> Dale posted on Thu, 09 Dec 2010 11:03:56 -0600 as excerpted:

> > Looks like this was simple enough to solve.  Just leave .kde behind at
> > least.  No worries.  Wish the multilib issue was this simple.  o_O
> 
> Seems to be good.
> 
> Depending on how much customizing you do to your kde (and mozilla), you
> can try copying them over too.  If anything breaks, you know what to
> "uncopy". =:^/  But it might be easier to do that and find what to uncopy
> if necessary, then re-customize everything, at least if you're as heavy a
> customizer as I am.  And worst-case, you simply erase that bit and start
> clean.

As I hate to re-create my KDE setup from scratch, I simply did nothing when 
I switched to 64bits a while ago. No problem. I even dual-booted a couple of 
times between 32 and 64 bit Gentoo. BTW, I still have the 32bit Gentoo, 
although cleaned from large stuff like KDE, because occasionally I need to 
build 32bit stuff.

> Meanwhile, for the akonadi stuff at least, there's a bit of config
> outside .kde.  I'm not /exactly/ sure of the default location as I've
> changed enough stuff around here to never be sure, but I /believe/ that
> bit is in ~/.config/<something> by default.  (Maybe .config/akonadi/ ?)

In there are the resource agents and the akonadiserverrc. Data base stuff is 
in .local/share/akonadi.

	Wonko

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Dale]

Alex Schuster wrote:
> Duncan writes:
>
>    
>> Dale posted on Thu, 09 Dec 2010 11:03:56 -0600 as excerpted:
>>      
>    
>>> Looks like this was simple enough to solve.  Just leave .kde behind at
>>> least.  No worries.  Wish the multilib issue was this simple.  o_O
>>>        
>> Seems to be good.
>>
>> Depending on how much customizing you do to your kde (and mozilla), you
>> can try copying them over too.  If anything breaks, you know what to
>> "uncopy". =:^/  But it might be easier to do that and find what to uncopy
>> if necessary, then re-customize everything, at least if you're as heavy a
>> customizer as I am.  And worst-case, you simply erase that bit and start
>> clean.
>>      
> As I hate to re-create my KDE setup from scratch, I simply did nothing when
> I switched to 64bits a while ago. No problem. I even dual-booted a couple of
> times between 32 and 64 bit Gentoo. BTW, I still have the 32bit Gentoo,
> although cleaned from large stuff like KDE, because occasionally I need to
> build 32bit stuff.
>
>    
>> Meanwhile, for the akonadi stuff at least, there's a bit of config
>> outside .kde.  I'm not /exactly/ sure of the default location as I've
>> changed enough stuff around here to never be sure, but I /believe/ that
>> bit is in ~/.config/<something>  by default.  (Maybe .config/akonadi/ ?)
>>      
> In there are the resource agents and the akonadiserverrc. Data base stuff is
> in .local/share/akonadi.
>
> 	Wonko
>
>    

I had forgot about Kopete.  I do use it.  I may can just save the one 
file/directory for Kopete and .mozilla.  I'll most likely just try the 
whole thing at first.  If it causes me grief, I can logout, go to a 
console and delete what I don't need.

I think I know what file Kopete uses.  I looked at it one time before.  
I think it is in a config directory or something.

UPS just ran.  I got what I need to get started with the testing at least.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[J. Roeleveld]

On Friday 10 December 2010 00:28:59 Dale wrote:
> I had forgot about Kopete.  I do use it.  I may can just save the one
> file/directory for Kopete and .mozilla.  I'll most likely just try the
> whole thing at first.  If it causes me grief, I can logout, go to a
> console and delete what I don't need.
> 
> I think I know what file Kopete uses.  I looked at it one time before.
> I think it is in a config directory or something.

The logs, pictures and stuff are in:
~/.kde4/share/apps/kopete

config-file is:
~/.kde4/share/config/kopeterc

User-accounts + passwords are, on my install, in the "kwallet" thing.
Wallets are at:
~/.kde4/share/apps/kwallet

> UPS just ran.  I got what I need to get started with the testing at least.

Have fun :)

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Dale]

J. Roeleveld wrote:
> On Friday 10 December 2010 00:28:59 Dale wrote:
>    
>> I had forgot about Kopete.  I do use it.  I may can just save the one
>> file/directory for Kopete and .mozilla.  I'll most likely just try the
>> whole thing at first.  If it causes me grief, I can logout, go to a
>> console and delete what I don't need.
>>
>> I think I know what file Kopete uses.  I looked at it one time before.
>> I think it is in a config directory or something.
>>      
> The logs, pictures and stuff are in:
> ~/.kde4/share/apps/kopete
>
> config-file is:
> ~/.kde4/share/config/kopeterc
>
> User-accounts + passwords are, on my install, in the "kwallet" thing.
> Wallets are at:
> ~/.kde4/share/apps/kwallet
>
>    
>> UPS just ran.  I got what I need to get started with the testing at least.
>>      
> Have fun :)
>
>
>    

Thanks for the info.  At least I know what to save.

I had fun.  I got to the point where I could boot from the hard drive.  
My kernel worked first time out of the box and so did grub-static.  Man 
this rig is faster.  gcc on old rig, about 2 hours.  New rig, 20 minutes.

Going to take a nap.  One eye already shut.  Other is half closed.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-amd64] About to install on a 64 bit system. Advice wanted.

[Stefan G. Weichinger]

Am 09.12.2010 03:27, schrieb Alex Schuster:

> If you are running databases like mysql, you need to export the
> databases and import them later. This is because they are in binary
> format, and the datatypes are different in x86 and amd64 world.

Oh, good note. Got to consider that if I go ~amd64 with my
mythtv-backend. Thanks.