[gentoo-amd64] How To Play WMV?

[gentoo-amd64] How To Play WMV?

[Daniel Iliev]

Hello,

My google digging wasn't helpful this time. Perhaps I can't find the
right search keywords. ;-(
On a 32bit gentoo system appropriate codec comes with
"media-libs/win32codecs" and such movies can be played by mplayer. On
amd64 mplayer can't be emerged with "USE=win32codecs", because the flag
is disabled by the profile.

Please, advise me how to set up an amd64 based system to play clips of
"*.wmv" format or send me a link to some information on this subject.

Thanks in advance!


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Re: [gentoo-amd64] How To Play WMV?

[Rob Lesslie]

> Please, advise me how to set up an amd64 based system to play clips of
> "*.wmv" format or send me a link to some information on this subject.

emerge mplayer-bin

-- 
Rob Lesslie
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[gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV?

[Harm Geerts]

On Wednesday 27 September 2006 08:30, Daniel Iliev wrote:
> Hello,
>
> My google digging wasn't helpful this time. Perhaps I can't find the
> right search keywords. ;-(
> On a 32bit gentoo system appropriate codec comes with
> "media-libs/win32codecs" and such movies can be played by mplayer. On
> amd64 mplayer can't be emerged with "USE=win32codecs", because the flag
> is disabled by the profile.
>
> Please, advise me how to set up an amd64 based system to play clips of
> "*.wmv" format or send me a link to some information on this subject.
>
> Thanks in advance!

mplayer-bin
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Re: [gentoo-amd64] How To Play WMV?

[Daniel Iliev]

Thank you, guys!

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Re: [gentoo-amd64] How To Play WMV?

[Christoph Mende]

Latest stable version of ffmpeg is supposed to support wmv (at least
ffmpeg-0.4.9_p20060816 has working wmv for me here), which is imho a
better solution.

2006/9/27, Daniel Iliev <danny@ilievnet.com>:
> Hello,
>
> My google digging wasn't helpful this time. Perhaps I can't find the
> right search keywords. ;-(
> On a 32bit gentoo system appropriate codec comes with
> "media-libs/win32codecs" and such movies can be played by mplayer. On
> amd64 mplayer can't be emerged with "USE=win32codecs", because the flag
> is disabled by the profile.
>
> Please, advise me how to set up an amd64 based system to play clips of
> "*.wmv" format or send me a link to some information on this subject.
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
>
> --
> gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-amd64] How To Play WMV?

[Joaquim Quinteiro Uchoa]

My 10 cents.

Good news about suport in ffmpeg. But it doesn't work in  0.4.9_p20060530. And
the version 0.4.9_p20060816 is masked:

[I] media-video/ffmpeg
     Available versions:  0.4.9_p20050226-r3 0.4.9_p20051216
0.4.9_p20060302 *0.4.9_p20060517 0.4.9_p20060530 [M ]0.4.9_p20060816

So, needs to put a entry in /etc/portage/package.unmask to use this version.


2006/9/27, Christoph Mende <ch.mende@googlemail.com>:
> Latest stable version of ffmpeg is supposed to support wmv (at least
> ffmpeg-0.4.9_p20060816 has working wmv for me here), which is imho a
> better solution.
>
> 2006/9/27, Daniel Iliev <danny@ilievnet.com>:
> > Hello,
> >
> > My google digging wasn't helpful this time. Perhaps I can't find the
> > right search keywords. ;-(
> > On a 32bit gentoo system appropriate codec comes with
> > "media-libs/win32codecs" and such movies can be played by mplayer. On
> > amd64 mplayer can't be emerged with "USE=win32codecs", because the flag
> > is disabled by the profile.
> >
> > Please, advise me how to set up an amd64 based system to play clips of
> > "*.wmv" format or send me a link to some information on this subject.
> >
> > Thanks in advance!
> >
> >
> > --
> > gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
> >
> >
> --
> gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>


-- 
[]s
Joaquim
------------------------------------------
  (o_    Joaquim Quinteiro Uchoa
 //\        Consultor Linux e EaD
 U_/_    Linux User # 100534
------------------------------------------
-- 
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[gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV?

[Duncan]

"Joaquim Quinteiro Uchoa" <joaquim.uchoa@gmail.com> posted
59541ff30609270529i358f86fdu9f25cd83367ecb2b@mail.gmail.com, excerpted
below, on  Wed, 27 Sep 2006 09:29:25 -0300:

> Good news about suport in ffmpeg. But it doesn't work in  0.4.9_p20060530. And
> the version 0.4.9_p20060816 is masked:
> 
> [I] media-video/ffmpeg
>      Available versions:  0.4.9_p20050226-r3 0.4.9_p20051216
> 0.4.9_p20060302 *0.4.9_p20060517 0.4.9_p20060530 [M ]0.4.9_p20060816
> 
> So, needs to put a entry in /etc/portage/package.unmask to use this version.

FWIW, xine seems to be playing some wmv here, not others.  I know divx
plays and suspect the *.wmv files that play are actually divx codec. 
That's 64-bit xinelib, no mplayer (since xinelib has always "just worked"
in far more cases than mplayer, here), and no proprietaryware codecs such
as win32codecs.  ffmpeg is the 20060530 edition.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

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Re: [gentoo-amd64] How To Play WMV?

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.]

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On Wednesday 27 September 2006 06:25, "Christoph Mende" 
<ch.mende@googlemail.com> wrote about 'Re: [gentoo-amd64] How To Play 
WMV?':
> Latest stable version of ffmpeg is supposed to support wmv (at least
> ffmpeg-0.4.9_p20060816 has working wmv for me here), which is imho a
> better solution.

Yeah, I don't have any -bin packages installed on ~amd64 and I can play 
some WMVs.  Others either do not play, or play audio only.

-- 
"If there's one thing we've established over the years,
it's that the vast majority of our users don't have the slightest
clue what's best for them in terms of package stability."
-- Gentoo Developer Ciaran McCreesh

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Re: [gentoo-amd64] How To Play WMV?

[Peter Davoust]

There are different versions of wmv. Last time I checked (on Ubuntu
atleast), the 64 bit of the w32codecs didn't work for WMV 9. The 32 bit
one seems to work perfectly though. You also have to have 32-bit
mplayer.

-Peter
On Wed, 2006-09-27 at 19:29 -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
> On Wednesday 27 September 2006 06:25, "Christoph Mende" 
> <ch.mende@googlemail.com> wrote about 'Re: [gentoo-amd64] How To Play 
> WMV?':
> > Latest stable version of ffmpeg is supposed to support wmv (at least
> > ffmpeg-0.4.9_p20060816 has working wmv for me here), which is imho a
> > better solution.
> 
> Yeah, I don't have any -bin packages installed on ~amd64 and I can play 
> some WMVs.  Others either do not play, or play audio only.
> 

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Re: [gentoo-amd64] How To Play WMV?

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.]

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On Wednesday 27 September 2006 21:55, Peter Davoust <worldgnat@gmail.com> 
TOP-POSTED about 'Re: [gentoo-amd64] How To Play WMV?':
> On Wed, 2006-09-27 at 19:29 -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
> > On Wednesday 27 September 2006 06:25, "Christoph Mende"
> > <ch.mende@googlemail.com> wrote about 'Re: [gentoo-amd64] How To Play
> > WMV?':
> > > Latest stable version of ffmpeg is supposed to support wmv.
> > Yeah, I don't have any -bin packages installed on ~amd64 and I can
> > play some WMVs.
> There are different versions of wmv. Last time I checked (on Ubuntu
> atleast), the 64 bit of the w32codecs didn't work for WMV 9. The 32 bit
> one seems to work perfectly though. You also have to have 32-bit
> mplayer.

Please don't top-post.

Yeah, it really doesn't matter to me when proprietary formats aren't 
available.  When I moved to amd64, I happily shed both flash and WMVs.  
(At the time I don't believe either firefox-bin or mplayer-bin was 
available.)  I figure if it's not important enough for the 
producer/distributor to use accessible formats (Speex, Vorbis, FLAC, 
Theora, etc.) it's not important enough for me to spend time watching.

*Insert Duncan's .sig here*

-- 
"If there's one thing we've established over the years,
it's that the vast majority of our users don't have the slightest
clue what's best for them in terms of package stability."
-- Gentoo Developer Ciaran McCreesh

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Re: [gentoo-amd64] How To Play WMV?

[Daniel Iliev]

Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
> On Wednesday 27 September 2006 21:55, Peter Davoust <worldgnat@gmail.com> 
> TOP-POSTED about 'Re: [gentoo-amd64] How To Play WMV?':
>   
>> On Wed, 2006-09-27 at 19:29 -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
>>     
>>> On Wednesday 27 September 2006 06:25, "Christoph Mende"
>>> <ch.mende@googlemail.com> wrote about 'Re: [gentoo-amd64] How To Play
>>> WMV?':
>>>       
>>>> Latest stable version of ffmpeg is supposed to support wmv.
>>>>         
>>> Yeah, I don't have any -bin packages installed on ~amd64 and I can
>>> play some WMVs.
>>>       
>> There are different versions of wmv. Last time I checked (on Ubuntu
>> atleast), the 64 bit of the w32codecs didn't work for WMV 9. The 32 bit
>> one seems to work perfectly though. You also have to have 32-bit
>> mplayer.
>>     
>
> Please don't top-post.
>
> Yeah, it really doesn't matter to me when proprietary formats aren't 
> available.  When I moved to amd64, I happily shed both flash and WMVs.  
> (At the time I don't believe either firefox-bin or mplayer-bin was 
> available.)  I figure if it's not important enough for the 
> producer/distributor to use accessible formats (Speex, Vorbis, FLAC, 
> Theora, etc.) it's not important enough for me to spend time watching.
>
> *Insert Duncan's .sig here*
>
>   
Well, I'm sorry but I disagree. Let's not go fanatic about any ideas.
Free software and open source are the greatest thing in the IT world (my
personal opinion), but should I not use NVidia's drivers only because
they are not GPLed? I would say anyone who uses software emulation
instead of hardware acceleration only because of the license is a fanatic.

I noticed that there is some kind of flash application that becomes more
and more popular on sites [1] providing something like "funny clips
exchange service". In order to watch the clips one needs Flash Player.
AFAIK there is no Flash Player for amd64 and there is no Flash-8 for
linux. No doubt it is wrong, but I'm far from the idea that the clips
people send are not worth seeing because of technical or license issues.


So I want to have flash/wmv/whatever running under Gentoo instead of
depriving myself.

[1] http://www.metacafe.com/

-- 
Best regards,
Daniel


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Re: [gentoo-amd64] How To Play WMV?

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.]

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On Thursday 28 September 2006 01:28, Daniel Iliev <danny@ilievnet.com> 
wrote about 'Re: [gentoo-amd64] How To Play WMV?':
> Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
> > On Wednesday 27 September 2006 21:55, Peter Davoust
> > <worldgnat@gmail.com>
> > TOP-POSTED about 'Re: [gentoo-amd64] How To Play WMV?':
> >> On Wed, 2006-09-27 at 19:29 -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
> > Yeah, it really doesn't matter to me when proprietary formats aren't
> > available.  I figure if it's not important enough for the
> > producer/distributor to use accessible formats (Speex, Vorbis, FLAC,
> > Theora, etc.) it's not important enough for me to spend time watching.
> Well, I'm sorry but I disagree. Let's not go fanatic about any ideas.
> Free software and open source are the greatest thing in the IT world (my
> personal opinion), but should I not use NVidia's drivers only because
> they are not GPLed?

No, you shouldn't use them because they aren't free software.  There's a 
number of ways that software can be free without being GPL-ed. ;)  
Seriously, though; I use the nvidia drivers, because they work on my 
chosen platform: 64-bit linux.

Of course, there's also the argument that you shouldn't use them due to 
security issues.  Theo and the gang that make the world's most secure 
operating system don't allow binary-blob style drivers because they can't 
be audited for security and even if you learn of an issue *you can't fix 
it*.

> I would say anyone who uses software emulation 
> instead of hardware acceleration only because of the license is a
> fanatic.

I respectfully disagree.
This hypothetical person appears to value freedom over convenience, which 
is their choice, I suppose.  Though, it seems that if they didn't protect 
their freedom, it might not be their choice...

I fully believe that, eventually, software slavery will be just as illegal 
as slavery is now, and that history will see RMS as the ridiculed "first 
software abolitionist".  While I still indulge in it from time to time, I 
don't believe the people that abhor it are fanatics.

> I noticed that there is some kind of flash application that becomes more
> and more popular on sites [1] providing something like "funny clips
> exchange service". In order to watch the clips one needs Flash Player.
> AFAIK there is no Flash Player for amd64

gnash plays some (not all) flash files on my ~amd64 machine.  Unfortunately 
the "funny clips exchange" sites don't seem to work with it.  Not sure if 
that's a versioning issue or another deficiency in gnash.

> and there is no Flash-8 for 
> linux.

IIRC, there's also no flash 8 for 64-bit windows?  So, I should not use 
half my processor just so you (or whoever) can send me funny video clips?  
I think that's mighty egotistical of whoever is sending the video clips / 
providing the service.

> No doubt it is wrong, but I'm far from the idea that the clips 
> people send are not worth seeing because of technical or license issues.

Well, we disagree then.  I'm just not going to compromise on my chosen 
computing platform: 64-bit Linux, to watch videos, no matter who they are 
sent from.

> So I want to have flash/wmv/whatever running under Gentoo instead of
> depriving myself.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply my choices should be yours.  It's just that I 
can't help much in setting such things up, and I did want to let you know 
there was an alternative.

To get flash working, you'll need a 32-bit chroot [1].  Guides for setting 
up that environment are available as part of the official Gentoo amd64 
handbook, with alternate instructions on the Gentoo wiki.

To get win32codecs working, you can simply install mplayer-bin (with the 
proper USE flags, of course), but you won't get any advantages you might 
have gotten from a source-based install.

Although, the above is a short-term solution; in the long term the only way 
to have these technologies working on a free OS is to use, support, and 
develop free software equivalents, and at the same time refuse to use, 
support, and develop non-free software using the technology.

-- 
"If there's one thing we've established over the years,
it's that the vast majority of our users don't have the slightest
clue what's best for them in terms of package stability."
-- Gentoo Developer Ciaran McCreesh

[1] Actually, I've seen a Debian package that claims to allow 64-bit 
konqueror to use 32-bit flash (and other nsplugins) but I don't know if 
that package is available for Gentoo.

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[gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV?

[Duncan]

"Boyd Stephen Smith Jr." <bss03@volumehost.net> posted
200609280212.48872.bss03@volumehost.net, excerpted below, on  Thu, 28 Sep
2006 02:12:44 -0500:

> [1] Actually, I've seen a Debian package that claims to allow 64-bit 
> konqueror to use 32-bit flash (and other nsplugins) but I don't know if 
> that package is available for Gentoo.

I think it might be as I've read of the package as well.  However, I don't
do slaveryware, and most freedomware (everything I use minus grub, which
is a special case due to amd64 initially booting in 16-bit real-mode, not
even 32-bit protected mode, for compatibility reasons) has already been
ported to amd64, so I compile it 64-bit.  Thus I have no use for that
32-bit kludge and didn't worry about retaining the details.

As for video drivers, I'm running a very stable Radeon 9200 series card,
an r200 series chip, which ATI released specs on so it has supported
hardware 3D for awhile.  It's AGP.  I'm not upgrading mobo for several
more years yet (I'll be upgrading to dual dual-core Opteron 285s later
this year or early next, as they continue to move down the pricing scale,
I have 8 gig memory and 4x300 gig SATA in RAID, so with the 2x dual-cores,
I figure I'll be good for another 3 years, perhaps more, and will likely
upgrade to single CPU 8-core when it gets mid-range), and if the situation
hasn't changed by then -- which I'm hoping it will with AMD buying ATI --
I'll likely be switching back to Intel for the first time since the
mid-90s, since they have good free video drivers.  I'd definitely be
buying Intel if I were in the market today, for that reason.  I didn't
switch to Linux after a decade on slaveryware just to be enslaved by a
different master, and enslaved it is, when the lack of ATI and NVidia
drivers is the only reason xorg-7.1 is not yet stable on x86 or amd64,
and it's the same thing with other distributions -- their actions are
holding a large segment of the would-be free software world hostage.  Call
it what you like, I call choosing to be a hostage to the whims of a
software overlord choosing to be enslaved, and I both refuse to do it,
and refuse to have my money go toward funding the slave-masters!

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

-- 
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Re: [gentoo-amd64] How To Play WMV?

[Alastair Murray]

Daniel Iliev wrote:

> Please, advise me how to set up an amd64 based system to play clips of
> "*.wmv" format or send me a link to some information on this subject.

If you install the most recent version of xine-lib in portage (it is
both unstable and masked as it is a pre-release version) and then unmask
all the dependencies that requires you can get some wmv9 playback using
xine.

This is because FFmpeg has had initial VC-1 (a wmv9 superset) support
added over summer.  It is still pretty buggy though, I'm finding colours
look weird in many videos, but this will be fixed over time.  When
people are mentioning earlier versions of xine will play some *.wmv
files they are possible wmv7 or 8, or different files with an incorrect
extension.

Alastair.

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Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV?

[Daniel Iliev]

Duncan wrote:
> "Boyd Stephen Smith Jr." <bss03@volumehost.net> posted
> 200609280212.48872.bss03@volumehost.net, excerpted below, on  Thu, 28 Sep
> 2006 02:12:44 -0500:
>
>   
>> [1] Actually, I've seen a Debian package that claims to allow 64-bit 
>> konqueror to use 32-bit flash (and other nsplugins) but I don't know if 
>> that package is available for Gentoo.
>>     
>
> I think it might be as I've read of the package as well.  However, I don't
> do slaveryware, and most freedomware (everything I use minus grub, which
> is a special case due to amd64 initially booting in 16-bit real-mode, not
> even 32-bit protected mode, for compatibility reasons) has already been
> ported to amd64, so I compile it 64-bit.  Thus I have no use for that
> 32-bit kludge and didn't worry about retaining the details.
>
> As for video drivers, I'm running a very stable Radeon 9200 series card,
> an r200 series chip, which ATI released specs on so it has supported
> hardware 3D for awhile.  It's AGP.  I'm not upgrading mobo for several
> more years yet (I'll be upgrading to dual dual-core Opteron 285s later
> this year or early next, as they continue to move down the pricing scale,
> I have 8 gig memory and 4x300 gig SATA in RAID, so with the 2x dual-cores,
> I figure I'll be good for another 3 years, perhaps more, and will likely
> upgrade to single CPU 8-core when it gets mid-range), and if the situation
> hasn't changed by then -- which I'm hoping it will with AMD buying ATI --
> I'll likely be switching back to Intel for the first time since the
> mid-90s, since they have good free video drivers.  I'd definitely be
> buying Intel if I were in the market today, for that reason.  I didn't
> switch to Linux after a decade on slaveryware just to be enslaved by a
> different master, and enslaved it is, when the lack of ATI and NVidia
> drivers is the only reason xorg-7.1 is not yet stable on x86 or amd64,
> and it's the same thing with other distributions -- their actions are
> holding a large segment of the would-be free software world hostage.  Call
> it what you like, I call choosing to be a hostage to the whims of a
> software overlord choosing to be enslaved, and I both refuse to do it,
> and refuse to have my money go toward funding the slave-masters!
>
>   
Come on, guys! Those are very strong words: "hostages", "slavery",
"freedom".

As far as I have free access to the necessary information to make my
choice and the possibility to live by that choice I consider myself
free. You choose one thing over another - this means you have the
information about those things and you are free to make choices about
them. By definition slavery doesn't give choice.
About the hostage situation, AFAIK X.org has decided to move ahead and
not to wait for the biggest companies to release their binary drivers. I
believe it is the right political decision because this way the
manufacturers are forced to play the race "Who will release the driver
first".

Now let me put here a funny example about freedom and convenience.
Suppose you have a very dear friend from the childhood. Life separated
you as each one took a different path. After many years accidentally you
find your buddy in The Internet.
-Hey! Glad to meet you! How you doin'!
-I'm fine, I have a wife and two kids, what about you?
-Fine, thanks! I also got married. Have one kid. Wanna see it - I just
made a movie with my new camera?
-But yes of course! Here's my e-mail address.... - and he sends you a
wmv compressed clip...

Now what? You gonna tell your friend "Sorry, man, but I'm not gonna see
your family 'cause I like my freedom!"
Come ooon! ;-)))))))))))))

I hope you get my point and take it with smile.
The last thing I want is to start some useless discussion titled "what
should I sacrifice for freedom".


-- 
Best regards,
Daniel


-- 
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Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV?

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.]

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On Thursday 28 September 2006 10:37, Daniel Iliev <danny@ilievnet.com> 
wrote about 'Re: [gentoo-amd64]  Re: How To Play WMV?':
> Duncan wrote:
> > However, I
> > don't do slaveryware, and most freedomware
> > has already been ported to amd64, so I compile it 64-bit.
> > 
> > I'll likely be
> > switching back to Intel for the first time since the mid-90s, since
> > they have good free video drivers.  I'd definitely be buying Intel if
> > I were in the market today, for that reason.

I agree, I would buy Intel today if I were in the market for a video card.

> > I didn't switch to Linux 
> > after a decade on slaveryware just to be enslaved by a different
> > master, and enslaved it is, when the lack of ATI and NVidia drivers is
> > the only reason xorg-7.1 is not yet stable on x86 or amd64, and it's
> > the same thing with other distributions -- their actions are holding a
> > large segment of the would-be free software world hostage.  Call it
> > what you like, I call choosing to be a hostage to the whims of a
> > software overlord choosing to be enslaved, and I both refuse to do it,
> > and refuse to have my money go toward funding the slave-masters!

I'm still using the NVidia proprietary drivers, because I have hardware 
that requires them for 3D acceleration (and a number of games that refuse 
to work un-accelerated).  So, there's just not a tenable free alternative.

With multimedia formats, there is a wealth free formats available, so I 
just don't use non-free formats.

I will also remember NVidia when it comes time to purchase a new system, 
and buy something that has fully-functional and free drivers.  e.g. freed 
ATI, Intel or perhaps the card from the open graphics project.

> Come on, guys! Those are very strong words: "hostages", "slavery",
> "freedom".

Yes, we know.  That's *why* he uses them.  Strong words for strong 
convictions.

> As far as I have free access to the necessary information to make my
> choice and the possibility to live by that choice I consider myself
> free.

And and anytime non-free software is one of the choices you LACK the 
information needed to make the choice.  You can't profile the code for 
performance bottlenecks or audit it for security considerations. Also, 
using non-free software take choices away from you later.

> Now let me put here a funny example about freedom and convenience.
> Suppose you have a very dear friend from the childhood. Life separated
> you as each one took a different path. After many years accidentally you
> find your buddy in The Internet.
> and he sends you a
> wmv compressed clip...
>
> Now what? You gonna tell your friend "Sorry, man, but I'm not gonna see
> your family 'cause I like my freedom!"
> Come ooon! ;-)))))))))))))

Yes, the same way I told my brother I couldn't watch his wedding because it 
was webcast in a non-free format.  I same way I told my employer I 
couldn't provide my resume in MS Word format.  The same way I tell my 
roommate I can't watch YouTube.

I'd also take the opportunity to tell him how to put his video in an 
accessible format and possibly let him know about free alternatives.

I guess to you, (software) freedom is not worth much.  It is to me.

> The last thing I want is to start some useless discussion titled "what
> should I sacrifice for freedom".

I think you are already there. :P

-- 
"If there's one thing we've established over the years,
it's that the vast majority of our users don't have the slightest
clue what's best for them in terms of package stability."
-- Gentoo Developer Ciaran McCreesh

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RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Bob Young]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org]On Behalf Of Duncan
> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 3:27 AM
> To: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV?
> 
> I didn't
> switch to Linux after a decade on slaveryware just to be enslaved by a
> different master, and enslaved it is, 

Not really, *most* people will be, just as "enslaved" even if they do use a GPLed version of the software.

> when the lack of ATI and NVidia
> drivers is the only reason xorg-7.1 is not yet stable on x86 or amd64,
> and it's the same thing with other distributions -- their actions are
> holding a large segment of the would-be free software world hostage.  Call
> it what you like, I call choosing to be a hostage to the whims of a
> software overlord choosing to be enslaved, and I both refuse to do it,
> and refuse to have my money go toward funding the slave-masters!

How is that different from people who can't read code being at the whims of Linux kernel developers?

The fact is, that's a weak argument at best, it's valid for a very small group of people, namely programmers. Everyone else, even if they use "freedomware," has to depend on *someone else* to fix/modify/update the app/utility/driver. 

I fail to see that it really makes much of a difference whether Jane Avgusr is dependent on a Linux kernel developer or on an engineer working at nVidia. 
 
> -- 
> Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
> "Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
> and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman
> 

There really is no such thing as "slaveryware" or "freedomware" it's all just software, and anyone who doesn't read/write code, which is the vast majority of the population by the way, is dependent (i.e. "enslaved" by RS's terminology) on someone else, who that someone else is, doesn't really make much difference in terms of the dynamics of the relationship.

-- 
Regards
Bob Young



-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV?

[Duncan]

Daniel Iliev <danny@ilievnet.com> posted 451BEC3E.1090103@ilievnet.com,
excerpted below, on  Thu, 28 Sep 2006 18:37:34 +0300:

> - and he sends you a
> wmv compressed clip...
> 
> Now what? You gonna tell your friend "Sorry, man, but I'm not gonna see
> your family 'cause I like my freedom!"
> Come ooon! ;-)))))))))))))

Well, if I was living somewhere where reverse engineering of DRM was
allowed and he invited me to the US, I think I'd be wise to decline,
unless I wished to become another Dimitry Sklyarov!  To me, the same
idea applies.

In fact, it's actually even closer than that.  I can no longer agree to
most EULAs for at least two reasons, due to the reverse engineering
prohibitions in most cases (a right I don't choose to sign away), and for
security reasons -- if I can't verify the source or have someone I trust
do so, then they better vouch for the security and freedom from harm of
their binaries, only no software developer or distributor in their right
mind is going to do that for anything near the price I'm willing to pay,
because it'll put them on the hook for potentially millions of dollars! 
Thus, they can't vouch for it, and I can't assure myself of the quality
since I can't read the code nor can I have someone I trust do so, so I
won't take that security risk.  Thus, in places like the US where EULAs
could potentially be legal, it's no longer a /question/ of choice for me,
as it's literally illegal for me to run the software if the EULA could be
considered binding since I literally cannot agree to it.

Thus, I will very patiently explain to that old friend that if he wants me
to see the video clip, he will have to transcode it to a format I can
legally view.

Will MS or NVidia agree to waive the EULA and be liable if their closed
source software causes damage to anything on my computer?  Will the agree
to waive the reverse engineering restrictions?  If they can't do both and
they won't, I can't agree to the EULA either.  Therefore, as long as it's
possible/likely that EULA could be considered legal, and that's the case
here in the US unfortunately, I can't legally run their software.  It's
not a case of want to any more.  It's a case of legality -- I can't
legally do it.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV?

[Duncan]

"Boyd Stephen Smith Jr." <bss03@volumehost.net> posted
200609281315.19206.bss03@volumehost.net, excerpted below, on  Thu, 28 Sep
2006 13:15:14 -0500:

> I'm still using the NVidia proprietary drivers, because I have hardware
> that requires them for 3D acceleration (and a number of games that refuse
> to work un-accelerated).  So, there's just not a tenable free alternative.
> 
> With multimedia formats, there is a wealth free formats available, so I
> just don't use non-free formats.
> 
> I will also remember NVidia when it comes time to purchase a new system,
> and buy something that has fully-functional and free drivers.  e.g. freed
> ATI, Intel or perhaps the card from the open graphics project.

I was in that situation for a bit over a year after I switched, and I
hated it.  While I had been doing my research before switching and not
buying any hardware that didn't support Linux, from two years before I
actually made the switch (it /did/ make the switch MUCH easier, knowing
everything was supported =8^), unfortunately at the time I didn't grok the
difference between proprietary Linux support and /real/ Linux support --
that is free software.  Thus when I bought my video card I bought an
NVidia GForce 2 (not too bad at the time, tho it had come down in price
some), relying on the Twinview, which naturally isn't supported in the
free drivers due to lack of specs cooperation from NVidia.  As a result,
tho I very quickly groked the difference between freedomware and
slaveryware drivers once I actually switched to Linux, I was stuck with
the hardware and the slaveryware for a year or so until I could again
upgrade, this time choosing a Radeon with /real/ Linux support.

So yes, I know the feeling of being stuck as that slave very well,
unfortunately. =8^(  Just getting onto Linux was a step in the right
direction, however, and I made /very/ sure I wouldn't make the same
mistake again once I realized it /was/ a mistake.  Now I see folks
wondering why xorg 7.1 can't go stable, and just have to shake my head at
NVidia and ATI's gall, as I said, daring to hold the whole would-be free
sotware world hostage, even those not choosing to use their hardware, just
because they can, and can't/won't invest the time necessary in keeping up,
yet refuse to provide specs so they don't have to, as the xorg team would
take care of it.  (You know xorg would if they could, given the
popularity of the hardware.)

BTW, it's not just them.  Sun was behind in supporting amd64 with Java as
well, and when they did, at first it was the server package only, no
desktop version.  Fortunately, Sun has promised to open up some this year,
and the rest next year.  We'll see.  And the gnash solution is coming
along on that front as well.  WMV support too seems to be coming, so
things aren't looking /too/ bad, with the worst news remaining on the
graphics chip hardware front, and Intel's new stuff being the only even
close to modern choice out.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Duncan]

"Bob Young" <BYoung@nucoretech.com> posted
FAEEIJPAOFEMBBLKPMJEOEGGHKAA.BYoung@NuCORETech.com, excerpted below, on 
Thu, 28 Sep 2006 11:16:29 -0700:

> Not really, *most* people will be, just as "enslaved" even if they do use
> a GPLed version of the software.

Keepin' this one brief.  "Not really" back at you, too, as the often used
car with a welded shut hood analogy makes clear.  Not everyone is a
mechanic either, and many haven't the faintest urge to touch stuff under
the hood, yet even those appreciate the value of a hood that opens, and
being able to take their car to someone besides the dealer for service. 
Just because I don't understand C/C++ myself doesn't mean I want the
software source hood welded shut on anything /I/ choose to run!  As I said
in a parallel post, the fact that Sun was significantly later to the AMD64
party than most FLOSS projects of similarly common use in the community is
definitely significant.  Had Java been open source, it's a pretty good bet
it would have been ported far sooner than it was, particularly given the
number of folks with funds or employees to invest in the project that run
java as one component on their server infrastructure.

Of course, something that needs said that often gets overlooked in all
this is that I do *NOT* expect or demand that everyone else hold the
same viewpoint I do.  I have a pretty strong personal belief system in
this area and recognize it as such.  While I agree it'd be /nice/ if
everyone had a similar belief, I recognize that's not the reality, and
further recognize that an attempt to force it on others would be as
counter-freedom as that which I despise.  My tough standards are my own to
live by, if I can, nobody else's unless they want to adopt them as well. 
Just because I have strong views on a subject and am not afraid to
voice/type them, doesn't mean I can't respect other viewpoints as well --
they just aren't /my/ viewpoints.  Sometimes that point gets lost in the
debate and folks seem to think I'm demanding they have the same standards.
Far from it!  One must come to such a realization on one's own, and
forcing it (1) won't work, (2) is actively counterproductive, and (3)
would be counter to the very values I hold so dear, to the point that the
very idea is anathema (yes, that's a strong word, but chosen deliberately
as precisely what I mean) to me!

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: Tolerance, Freedom, Prosthetics

[Brian Litzinger]

I am happy so long as seller A can offer product A,
and seller B can offer product B, and seller C and
offer product C ... and buyers X and Y can choose
among them.

I am unhappy when buyer X calls buyer Y evil for
the decision buyer Y made.

I am also unhappy when buyer X calls sellers he did
not buy from evil.

I you agree that slavery is an evil, then calling a 
seller's product slavery-ware is calling the sellers 
product and possibly the seller evil.

So long as freedom of association and contract is maintained
I do not see the need to call sellers or buyers evil.

I put prosthetics in the subject rather than proselytizing
so we can see who responds without reading the article
all the way through, or at all.

And proselytizing is fine, through perhaps not on this
forum.

Just don't proselytize via 'Seller A or product A is evil'.
Better to use product A is better because ...

On the other hand, if you live in the real world (unlike me)
you may be best off calling what you do not like evil.  Seems
everyone else does.

-- 
Brian Litzinger

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Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4821 bytes --]

On Thursday 28 September 2006 13:16, "Bob Young" <BYoung@nucoretech.com> 
wrote about 'RE: [gentoo-amd64]  Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - 
slaveryware)':
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org]On Behalf Of Duncan
> > Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 3:27 AM
> > To: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org
> > Subject: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV?
> >
> > I didn't
> > switch to Linux after a decade on slaveryware just to be enslaved by a
> > different master, and enslaved it is,
>
> Not really, *most* people will be, just as "enslaved" even if they do
> use a GPLed version of the software.

Not true.  The freedom to modify the code is important even if the user 
cannot directly exert it, because it allows the user to pay someone *other 
than the copyright holder* to do the modifications for them.

Also, anyone is allowed to give their friend free software and to use free 
software for any purpose.  Those freedoms are not provided to users of 
non-free software.

> > when the lack of ATI and NVidia
> > drivers is the only reason xorg-7.1 is not yet stable on x86 or amd64,
> > and it's the same thing with other distributions -- their actions are
> > holding a large segment of the would-be free software world hostage. 
> > Call it what you like, I call choosing to be a hostage to the whims of
> > a software overlord choosing to be enslaved, and I both refuse to do
> > it, and refuse to have my money go toward funding the slave-masters!
>
> How is that different from people who can't read code being at the whims
> of Linux kernel developers?

No one is at the whims of the kernel developers.  Even if you can't read 
code, you can communicate with people *other than the kernel developers* 
who can read code.  You aren't forced to trust the kernel developers word 
that patch X is "better" for linux.  Sure, it may improve performance in 
90% of the cases -- but what if you are in the other 10%?  Even if you 
don't understand code, it's simple enough to reverse a patch.

> The fact is, that's a weak argument at best,

I call BS.

> it's valid for a very small 
> group of people, namely programmers. Everyone else, even if they use
> "freedomware," has to depend on *someone else* to fix/modify/update the
> app/utility/driver.

Yes, they might have to contact someone else.  But, the are forced to send 
all changes through *one particular entity*.  They can make their own 
choices on how the software they use is modified.  Remember, free (libre) 
software isn't free (gratis).  The production (and maintenance) of 
software has a cost and not matter how you license it you *can't* make 
that cost go away.

> I fail to see that it really makes much of a difference whether Jane
> Avgusr is dependent on a Linux kernel developer or on an engineer
> working at nVidia.

Because *no one* is dependent on the linux kernel developers.  You can make 
the needed changes.  If you don't have the ability to, you can get someone 
else to using other resources available to you.  E.g. I really need my 
lawn mowed and I hate doing it; I'll trade you a mowed lawn for a kernel 
patch.

Someone *has* to pay for the cost of maintaining and improving software. 
That's economic fact.  NVidia says you have to pay *them* to improve their 
software.  Linux kernel developers says you can pay *anyone with the 
skills* (or use your own time) to improve the software.  Clearly, you have 
more options (and are thus more free) with free software.

> There really is no such thing as "slaveryware" or "freedomware" it's all

Yes, there very well is.  I want software I'm free to distribute (I need 
freedomware).  I want software I'm free to use how I see fit (I need 
freedom ware).  I want software I can profile and audit myself

> just software, and anyone who doesn't read/write code, which is the vast
> majority of the population by the way, is dependent (i.e. "enslaved" by
> RS's terminology) on someone else, who that someone else is, doesn't
> really make much difference in terms of the dynamics of the
> relationship.

Analogy:
improving and maintaining software = food
software companies and individual developers = farms and farmers

So, you are saying it "doesn't make much different" whether I'm forced to 
buy all my food from one particular farm or if I'm allowed to buy food 
from any farmer (probably on the free market)?

The fact is that is DOES matter.  And anyone that doesn't understand that 
is simplifying things to much.

-- 
"If there's one thing we've established over the years,
it's that the vast majority of our users don't have the slightest
clue what's best for them in terms of package stability."
-- Gentoo Developer Ciaran McCreesh

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Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: Tolerance, Freedom, Prosthetics

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1117 bytes --]

On Thursday 28 September 2006 15:08, Brian Litzinger 
<brian@worldcontrol.com> wrote about 'Re: [gentoo-amd64]  Re: Tolerance, 
Freedom, Prosthetics':
> I am happy so long as seller A can offer product A,
> and seller B can offer product B, and seller C and
> offer product C ... and buyers X and Y can choose
> among them.

I'm not happy is seller B engages in business practices that I find 
immoral.

> I am unhappy when buyer X calls buyer Y evil for
> the decision buyer Y made.

I agree.

> I am also unhappy when buyer X calls sellers he did
> not buy from evil.

Even buyer X chose not to buy from those sellers BECAUSE (s)he believes 
their business practices are immoral and should be made illegal?

> On the other hand, if you live in the real world (unlike me)
> you may be best off calling what you do not like evil.  Seems
> everyone else does.

:)

-- 
"If there's one thing we've established over the years,
it's that the vast majority of our users don't have the slightest
clue what's best for them in terms of package stability."
-- Gentoo Developer Ciaran McCreesh

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RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Bob Young]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org]On Behalf Of Duncan
> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 12:47 PM
> To: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)
> 
> 
> "Bob Young" <BYoung@nucoretech.com> posted
> FAEEIJPAOFEMBBLKPMJEOEGGHKAA.BYoung@NuCORETech.com, excerpted below, on 
> Thu, 28 Sep 2006 11:16:29 -0700:
> 
> > Not really, *most* people will be, just as "enslaved" even if 
> they do use
> > a GPLed version of the software.
> 
> Keepin' this one brief.  "Not really" back at you, too, as the often used
> car with a welded shut hood analogy makes clear.  Not everyone is a
> mechanic either, and many haven't the faintest urge to touch stuff under
> the hood, yet even those appreciate the value of a hood that opens, 

Appreciating the value of something, and having freedom, or being enslaved are very different things.

> and
> being able to take their car to someone besides the dealer for service. 

That's not freedom, they are still completely dependent on the mechanic they take the car to. I don't really see how moving the dependency from one entity to another could be called freedom.

My issue here is with the terms being used ( i.e. slaveryware,, and freedomware), and what they infer about the relationship between a vendor, and end users.  IOW why are the end users who are dependent upon developers of XYZ open source driver/app, less "enslaved" than other users who are dependent on developers who work at ABC company ...?


> Just because I don't understand C/C++ myself doesn't mean I want the
> software source hood welded shut on anything /I/ choose to run!  As I said
> in a parallel post, the fact that Sun was significantly later to the AMD64
> party than most FLOSS projects of similarly common use in the community is
> definitely significant.  Had Java been open source, it's a pretty good bet
> it would have been ported far sooner than it was, particularly given the
> number of folks with funds or employees to invest in the project that run
> java as one component on their server infrastructure.

I agree, and that is a perfectly valid argument (faster porting), as one of the merits of open source. However, it doesn't actually provide any greater *freedom* to most end users. You can argue that they *benefit* from something being ported more quickly, but that's very different from suggesting that open source provides "freedom" to end users and that close source is "enslaving" them.
 
> Of course, something that needs said that often gets overlooked in all
> this is that I do *NOT* expect or demand that everyone else hold the
> same viewpoint I do.  I have a pretty strong personal belief system in
> this area and recognize it as such.  

I certainly want you to have the freedom to choose OSS only, and I applaud your conviction for standing up for what you believe in. From my viewpoint as a software engineer, I dislike seeing inflammatory terms such as slaveryware and freedomware thrown about when they don't actually represent the true reality of the situation. I'd rather see the debate take place without the need to resort to inaccurate and inflammatory words.

> My tough standards are my own to
> live by, if I can, nobody else's unless they want to adopt them as well. 

I'm not suggesting you should change your opinion or views in any way. I'm only suggesting that "slaveryware" and "freedomware" are not accurate terms. I'm suggesting that the more general "open source" "GPLed" "CSS" "OSS" "closed source" etc, are descriptive enough to make the point, and they do so  without being somewhat condescending and mildly insulting to others who may not share your strong views of open source. 

> Just because I have strong views on a subject and am not afraid to
> voice/type them, doesn't mean I can't respect other viewpoints as well --
> they just aren't /my/ viewpoints.  Sometimes that point gets lost in the
> debate and folks seem to think I'm demanding they have the same standards.
> Far from it!  

No, I've never thought you were saying that, I just find that the term "freedomware" insinuates a "righteousness" that isn't justified by the actual dynamics of the vendor/user relationship, and "slaveryware" denotes a negative that isn't very well supported by reality either.

> One must come to such a realization on one's own, and
> forcing it (1) won't work, (2) is actively counterproductive, and (3)
> would be counter to the very values I hold so dear, to the point that the
> very idea is anathema (yes, that's a strong word, but chosen deliberately
> as precisely what I mean) to me!

I've never thought you were trying to force anything on anybody, I'm just saying I think the terms you've chosen, overstate your case, and are a bit disrespectful to anyone who might be on the other side of the question.

-- 
Regards
Bob Young



-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2078 bytes --]

On Thursday 28 September 2006 16:32, "Bob Young" <BYoung@nucoretech.com> 
wrote about 'RE: [gentoo-amd64]  Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - 
slaveryware)':
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org]On Behalf Of Duncan
> > "Bob Young" <BYoung@nucoretech.com> posted
> > FAEEIJPAOFEMBBLKPMJEOEGGHKAA.BYoung@NuCORETech.com, excerpted below,
> > on
> > Thu, 28 Sep 2006 11:16:29 -0700:
> That's not freedom, they are still completely dependent on the mechanic
> they take the car to.

No, they aren't.  They can use another mechanic.  Instead of having to 
consult *one particular entity* they can consult *any entity of a 
particular class*.  They gain a choice, which means they have more 
freedom.

If you still aren't convinced ask yourself which is more free: being able 
to stand on only *one particular* square meter of public property or being 
able to stand on *any* square meter (and, of course, being able to change 
your choice each time you choose to stand).

> I agree, and that is a perfectly valid argument (faster porting), as one
> of the merits of open source. However, it doesn't actually provide any
> greater *freedom* to most end users.

It most certainly does.  No matter how many resources I give my local 
programmer's co-op, they can't port Macromedia's Flash application to 
64-linux the source [and an appropriate licence] from Macromedia.  (They 
might [subject to software patentes] be able to provide a replacement.)

However, I can take any piece for free software and, without consultation 
or aid from the copyright holders, have my local programmer's co-op port 
it to a new architecture.  There may be significant resource outlay, but 
it is at least possible.

With non-free software, you are (at best) on the wrong end of a monopoly 
position.

-- 
"If there's one thing we've established over the years,
it's that the vast majority of our users don't have the slightest
clue what's best for them in terms of package stability."
-- Gentoo Developer Ciaran McCreesh

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RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Bob Young]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. [mailto:bss03@volumehost.net]
> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:31 PM
> To: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -
> slaveryware)
> 
> 
> On Thursday 28 September 2006 13:16, "Bob Young" <BYoung@nucoretech.com> 
> wrote about 'RE: [gentoo-amd64]  Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - 
> slaveryware)':
> > Not really, *most* people will be, just as "enslaved" even if they do
> > use a GPLed version of the software.
> 
> Not true.  The freedom to modify the code is important even if the user 
> cannot directly exert it, because it allows the user to pay 
> someone *other 
> than the copyright holder* to do the modifications for them.

So...? instead of being dependent upon the original vendor, the user is dependent upon the contractor s/he hires to do the modifications. I don't consider the option of transferring dependence from one entity to another entity as being real freedom.

I will grant you that in instances where the original vendor no longer wishes to maintain/fix/update a piece of software, I believe that the source should be released, either GPLed, or just pure public domain, but that's not what we're talking about in this debate.

> Also, anyone is allowed to give their friend free software and to  use free 
> software for any purpose.  Those freedoms are not provided to users of 
> non-free software.

Now you're muddying the waters between libre and gratis, I can give you hundreds of examples of freeware or shareware that I can *legally* give to my friends without charge, but that don't have source code available. So in the sentence above what exactly is "free software" and what differentiates it from "non-free software?"


> > > when the lack of ATI and NVidia
> > > drivers is the only reason xorg-7.1 is not yet stable on x86 or amd64,
> > > and it's the same thing with other distributions -- their actions are
> > > holding a large segment of the would-be free software world hostage. 
> > > Call it what you like, I call choosing to be a hostage to the whims of
> > > a software overlord choosing to be enslaved, and I both refuse to do
> > > it, and refuse to have my money go toward funding the slave-masters!
> >
> > How is that different from people who can't read code being at the whims
> > of Linux kernel developers?
> 
> No one is at the whims of the kernel developers.  Even if you can't read 
> code, you can communicate with people *other than the kernel developers* 
> who can read code.

Okay, but since you can't read code, you have to *trust* whomever you do contact, they could just as easily be mistaken, or make an error without you knowing it. Why is being dependent upon someone else instead of <fill in the blank>, but still dependent nonetheless, considered freedom?


> You aren't forced to trust the kernel developers word 
> that patch X is "better" for linux.  Sure, it may improve performance in 
> 90% of the cases -- but what if you are in the other 10%?  Even if you 
> don't understand code, it's simple enough to reverse a patch.

Uhhhh....and binary patches can't be reversed, that doesn't require source code to be available.

> > I fail to see that it really makes much of a difference whether Jane
> > Avgusr is dependent on a Linux kernel developer or on an engineer
> > working at nVidia.
> 
> Because *no one* is dependent on the linux kernel developers. You can make 
> the needed changes.  If you don't have the ability to,

As is the case for 99.99 percent of the population.

> you can get someone 
> else to using other resources available to you. 

So instead of depending on a kernel developer, I'm depending on a contractor I hire, I just don't see that as dramatically different.

> E.g. I really need my 
> lawn mowed and I hate doing it; I'll trade you a mowed lawn for a kernel 
> patch.

LOL..nice in theory, but I seriously doubt that many people are actually bartering for kernel patches.


> Someone *has* to pay for the cost of maintaining and improving software. 
> That's economic fact.  NVidia says you have to pay *them* to improve their 
> software.  Linux kernel developers says you can pay *anyone with the 
> skills* (or use your own time) to improve the software.  Clearly, 
> you have more options (and are thus more free) with free software.

If I'm not doing it myself, I see little difference whether I pay one entity, or pay another.

> > There really is no such thing as "slaveryware" or "freedomware" it's all
> 
> Yes, there very well is.  I want software I'm free to distribute (I need 
> freedomware).

That's fine for you, but it isn't important to most users, and in the grand scheme of things it doesn't need to be.

> I want software I'm free to use how I see fit (I need 
> freedom ware). 

Depends on what how you define "see fit." For most users there is nothing specifically provided by open source that they absolutely require.

> I want software I can profile and audit myself

That's fine for you, but it isn't important to most users, and in the grand scheme of things it doesn't need to be.
 
> Analogy:
> improving and maintaining software = food
> software companies and individual developers = farms and farmers

Software is not food, software is software, and developers are not farmers, they are developers.

> So, you are saying it "doesn't make much different" whether I'm forced to 
> buy all my food from one particular farm or if I'm allowed to buy food 
> from any farmer (probably on the free market)?

I'm saying that end users are free to buy or not buy hardware/software from any vendor based on the capabilities, features, reputation, and reviews of that hardware/software. The availability/nonavailability of source code doesn't add/subtract freedom from the transaction at all, at least in real world practical terms for most users.
 
> The fact is that is DOES matter.  And anyone that doesn't understand that 
> is simplifying things to much.

It is simple, very simple, you're just over intellectualizing it and romanticizing it.

 -- 
Regards
Bob Young 



-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Bob Young]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. [mailto:bss03@volumehost.net]
> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 2:57 PM
> To: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -
> slaveryware)
> 
> 
> On Thursday 28 September 2006 16:32, "Bob Young" <BYoung@nucoretech.com> 
> wrote about 'RE: [gentoo-amd64]  Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - 
> slaveryware)':
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org]On Behalf Of Duncan
> > > "Bob Young" <BYoung@nucoretech.com> posted
> > > FAEEIJPAOFEMBBLKPMJEOEGGHKAA.BYoung@NuCORETech.com, excerpted below,
> > > on
> > > Thu, 28 Sep 2006 11:16:29 -0700:
> > That's not freedom, they are still completely dependent on the mechanic
> > they take the car to.
> 
> No, they aren't.  They can use another mechanic.  Instead of having to 
> consult *one particular entity* they can consult *any entity of a 
> particular class*.  They gain a choice, which means they have more 
> freedom.

That's almost entirely a theoretical difference, in the real world this "freedom" is actually exercised very little if at all. I'm sure there are exceptions occasionally, but the fact is, the vast majority of OSS users who can't read/write source code, will never once in their entire life, contract with a third party to modify an app/driver/utility that they have the source code for.

> If you still aren't convinced ask yourself which is more free: being able 
> to stand on only *one particular* square meter of public property 
> or being able to stand on *any* square meter (and, of course, being able to change 
> your choice each time you choose to stand).

I the theoretical world you're correct, in the real world people don't stand on a single square meter of public property or make decisions about doing so. 
 
 
> With non-free software, you are (at best) on the wrong end of a monopoly 
> position.
> 

Intellectually you're technically correct, in real world terms it's a distinction without a difference.

-- 
Regards,
Bob Young



-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Piotr Pruszczak]

very very easy. to understand all this...

OK, lets see the simple example.

I have ATI card with x.org-7.1 drivers, nothing speciall - just poor BUT 
stable 2D & 3D

I probably COULD use closed-source driver

BUT if my machine then will NOT work properly, I will achieve memory 
leaks etc (past shows many examples..) what can I do ?

NOTHING. the only way is to use open-source drivers instead of 
closed-source, see : it's OK now, and then say to ATI guys : hey, sth 
wrong is in your drivers :P:P:P (and then I will have no answer or some 
answers after some months..)

it's stupid to say : open source (as GPL, LGPL, FLOSS etc..) is not 
necessary as we can just buy "open source" (but closed in fact) 
software. because of - closed source is "IP" (intellectuall property - 
watever this means, abstractive and poor words) and NOBODY exept the 
owner CAN modify it, change etc.

then, as result, I have to BUY it every time I see new bug in software.

As I sale some software in my work, I can see it many times that ONLY 
because of I work with right people - they play RIGHT on this market and 
I CAN achieve the result as non-buggy-software sold only once, if 
necessary upgraded a few times. but this is very speciall, not-so-wide 
market of specialised solutions, B2B - and NOBODY can say "this is the 
same as whole-sale" - I do mean "SOHO market" with hundreds thousands 
buyers and hundreds of sellers

So - believe me, I will NEVER use closed source IF i have any 
alternative software, even if the preformance of this closed-source is 
about 150% of really OPEN source solutions. because of. I do NOT want to 
argue this, just its my experience ;)

thats the DEBIAN way ;)) @ gentoo amd64station :) & @ gentoo list;)



On the other hand - in my opinion - B2B is completely another thing, and 
sometimes there is NOT any other solution than closed-source or BINARY 
software, but maintained && sold by RIGHT people, with full support & 
many features which makes this way right.




regards,

Piotr
-- 
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[gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Duncan]

"Bob Young" <BYoung@nucoretech.com> posted
FAEEIJPAOFEMBBLKPMJEMEHBHKAA.BYoung@NuCORETech.com, excerpted below, on 
Thu, 28 Sep 2006 14:32:00 -0700:

[Duncan wrote...]
>> My tough standards are my own to
>> live by, if I can, nobody else's unless they want to adopt them as well.
> 
> I'm not suggesting you should change your opinion or views in any way. I'm
> only suggesting that "slaveryware" and "freedomware" are not accurate
> terms. I'm suggesting that the more general "open source" "GPLed" "CSS"
> "OSS" "closed source" etc, are descriptive enough to make the point, and
> they do so  without being somewhat condescending and mildly insulting to
> others who may not share your strong views of open source.

See, that's where my meaning gets messed up.  I'm talking about
slaveryware not because that's what you see it as, and /certainly/ not
because that's what the average user would see it as, but because that's
what I see it as. It is a term describing an attitude/realization to which
I've evolved in my own journey thru life, and as such, pertains to that
peculiar viewpoint. You don't have to call it slaveryware as you've
obviously taken a different journey and are at a different point in your
life, so you don't see it as such, which is fine. Only know that I do see
it as such given the point in my life journey I've arrived at and seeing
it, will call it just as I see it, no politically correct word games, just
my straight unvarnished viewpoint.

That's what I mean about not forcing my views, while at the same time
being very honest, no politically correct toning down for niceness or
whatever, about my own viewpoint.  I'm not asking you to accept my
definition, I'm simply saying that's the way I see it and /only/ asking
you to accept that /I/ see it that way.  You can call it the greatest
invention since sliced bread if you want, it won't affect the journey I've
taken, nor my viewpoint, and as soon as I realize that's what you believe,
well, I'll accept that and interpret any references in your posts to "the
greatest thing  since sliced bread" in "Bob Young speak" as "slaveryware"
in "Duncan speak".  =8^)  All I'm asking is that /whatever/ you choose to
call it, you accept my viewpoint as my own just as I'd accept yours as
your own, and do the reverse translation. =8^)

For me, it's slaveryware, so that's what I call it.  It really is that
simple.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-amd64] How To Play WMV?

[Daniel Iliev]

Daniel Iliev wrote:
> Hello,
>
> My google digging wasn't helpful this time. Perhaps I can't find the
> right search keywords. ;-(
> On a 32bit gentoo system appropriate codec comes with
> "media-libs/win32codecs" and such movies can be played by mplayer. On
> amd64 mplayer can't be emerged with "USE=win32codecs", because the flag
> is disabled by the profile.
>
> Please, advise me how to set up an amd64 based system to play clips of
> "*.wmv" format or send me a link to some information on this subject.
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
>
>   
Guys,

Since it happens that I'm the OP in this thread I feel myself kind of
responsible for the thread. So I'd like to most kindly bring your
attention on two things:

1) The thread served its purpose. I'm very happy and thankful for the
help and the answers.

2) I really (I mean it) enjoy the discussion "thread drift -
slaveryware" but aren't we supposed to open a new OT Thread or
something? My concern is that this mails go to everyone on the list and
this could be annoying for many people. I'm not sure what is the right
thing we should do?

-- 
Best regards,
Daniel


-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Simon Stelling]

Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
> No, they aren't.  They can use another mechanic.  Instead of having to 
> consult *one particular entity* they can consult *any entity of a 
> particular class*.  They gain a choice, which means they have more 
> freedom.

Uhuh, I'm sure the Debian devs will gladly fix a bug in portage. *silent 
chuckling*

-- 
Kind Regards,

Simon Stelling
Gentoo/AMD64 developer
-- 
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[gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Duncan]

"Bob Young" <BYoung@nucoretech.com> posted
FAEEIJPAOFEMBBLKPMJEMEHFHKAA.BYoung@NuCORETech.com, excerpted below, on 
Thu, 28 Sep 2006 15:43:12 -0700:

>> > I fail to see that it really makes much of a difference whether Jane
>> > Avgusr is dependent on a Linux kernel developer or on an engineer
>> > working at nVidia.
>> 
>> Because *no one* is dependent on the linux kernel developers. You can
>> make the needed changes.  If you don't have the ability to,
> 
> As is the case for 99.99 percent of the population.

That may be, but 99.99 percent of the population isn't me. (FWIW
that's something I'm sure both they and I am very glad about! Can you
imagine billions of Duncans around? <shudder> =8^)

As I said in a different reply, "slaveryware" vs. "freedomware" is simply
the point in my experience I've come to.  I don't expect others to have
come to the same point, or necessarily find my terms represent their
experience.  All I'm doing is fairly representing my own experience,
calling things exactly as I see them, unvarnished with "political
correctness".

>> Someone *has* to pay for the cost of maintaining and improving software.
>> That's economic fact.  NVidia says you have to pay *them* to improve
>> their software.  Linux kernel developers says you can pay *anyone with
>> the skills* (or use your own time) to improve the software.  Clearly,
>> you have more options (and are thus more free) with free software.
> 
> If I'm not doing it myself, I see little difference whether I pay one
> entity, or pay another.

It's a bit of a side point compared to the above, but if you don't see a
difference between having to pay one entity and being able to make a
choice between thousands or millions of such entities, I can only hope
that all your aches and pains can ever be cured by your choice of
acetaminophen, aspirin, etc one can buy at the local drug, grocer, or
convenience store, or even simply by taking it easy a few hours, and that
you never face the hard choice of paying for a single supplier patented
new drug to save your life or that of a loved one, or buying food and/or
paying rent.  The fact of the matter is, many suppliers gives you vastly
more freedom/flexibility than a single supplier, and with that
freedom/flexibility not coincidentally comes a rather drastic drop in
cost, yet the suppliers still seem to stay n business.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-amd64] How To Play WMV?

[Simon Stelling]

Daniel Iliev wrote:
> 2) I really (I mean it) enjoy the discussion "thread drift -
> slaveryware" but aren't we supposed to open a new OT Thread or
> something? My concern is that this mails go to everyone on the list and
> this could be annoying for many people. I'm not sure what is the right
> thing we should do?

Those who are annoyed can still just ignore the mails. Astonishingly you 
have that freedom even when using "slaveryware" :P

-- 
Kind Regards,

Simon Stelling
Gentoo/AMD64 developer
-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Duncan]

"Bob Young" <BYoung@nucoretech.com> posted
FAEEIJPAOFEMBBLKPMJEAEHIHKAA.BYoung@NuCORETech.com, excerpted below, on 
Thu, 28 Sep 2006 16:03:25 -0700:

>> From: Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. [mailto:bss03@volumehost.net]
>> 
>> "Bob Young" <BYoung@nucoretech.com> wrote:

>> > That's not freedom, they are still completely dependent on the
>> > mechanic they take the car to.
>> 
>> No, they aren't.  They can use another mechanic.  Instead of having to
>> consult *one particular entity* they can consult *any entity of a
>> particular class*.  They gain a choice, which means they have more
>> freedom.
> 
> That's almost entirely a theoretical difference, in the real world this
> "freedom" is actually exercised very little if at all. I'm sure there
> are exceptions occasionally, but the fact is, the vast majority of OSS
> users who can't read/write source code, will never once in their entire
> life, contract with a third party to modify an app/driver/utility that
> they have the source code for.

The vast majority of users, perhaps, but it's the exercise of this freedom
is now a MAJOR factor, perhaps now THE major factor, in further FLOSS
development. How many companies and even government agencies now pay
developers to full-time or part-time work on FLOSS projects they are
interested in?  That's /very/ /much/ "hiring their own mechanic", even if
it's the original mechanic.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-amd64] How To Play WMV?

[Daniel Iliev]

Simon Stelling wrote:
> Daniel Iliev wrote:
>> 2) I really (I mean it) enjoy the discussion "thread drift -
>> slaveryware" but aren't we supposed to open a new OT Thread or
>> something? My concern is that this mails go to everyone on the list and
>> this could be annoying for many people. I'm not sure what is the right
>> thing we should do?
>
> Those who are annoyed can still just ignore the mails. Astonishingly
> you have that freedom even when using "slaveryware" :P
>
LOL

-- 
Best regards,
Daniel


-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Bob Young]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org]On Behalf Of Duncan
> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 5:17 PM
> To: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)
> 
> 
> "Bob Young" <BYoung@nucoretech.com> posted
> FAEEIJPAOFEMBBLKPMJEMEHFHKAA.BYoung@NuCORETech.com, excerpted below, on 
> Thu, 28 Sep 2006 15:43:12 -0700:
> 
> >> > I fail to see that it really makes much of a difference whether Jane
> >> > Avgusr is dependent on a Linux kernel developer or on an engineer
> >> > working at nVidia.
> >> 
> >> Because *no one* is dependent on the linux kernel developers. You can
> >> make the needed changes.  If you don't have the ability to,
> > 
> > As is the case for 99.99 percent of the population.
> 
> That may be, but 99.99 percent of the population isn't me. 

True, but discussions regarding moral, ethical, or general policy questions, should have a broader base and application than my personal and specific opinion and viewpoint. 
 
> As I said in a different reply, "slaveryware" vs. "freedomware" is simply
> the point in my experience I've come to.  I don't expect others to have
> come to the same point, or necessarily find my terms represent their
> experience.  All I'm doing is fairly representing my own experience,
> calling things exactly as I see them, unvarnished with "political
> correctness".

I don't care about political correctness, I care about reality, and in the real world, words have meaning, they don't just mean what each of us chooses for them personally. Just because you personally perceive CSS as slaveryware doesn't mean that such a term is justified by the actual reality of the situation.

I consider it somewhat of a copout, and just a bit disingenuous, to justify use of inflammatory terms with the "it's just my viewpoint" defense. I could justify my use of the word whore when referring to women by saying I don't mean it as derogatory. I could say that I'm not using it as a slur, and that I perceive it as just a general term. I could say no one else should take it as meaning otherwise when I use it, however that doesn't change the meaning one bit, nor does it change what people hear when I use the word, nor should it. The same argument could, and has, been used for nigger, faggot, Nazi, and a whole host of other inflammatory words. 

Just saying that you're in a "different place in your journey" doesn't change the meaning of words, nor how accurately (or NOT) they describe the reality of the situation.
 
> >> the skills* (or use your own time) to improve the software.  Clearly,
> >> you have more options (and are thus more free) with free software.
> > 
> > If I'm not doing it myself, I see little difference whether I pay one
> > entity, or pay another.
> 
> new drug to save your life or that of a loved one, or buying food and/or
> paying rent.  The fact of the matter is, many suppliers gives you vastly
> more freedom/flexibility than a single supplier, and with that
> freedom/flexibility not coincidentally comes a rather drastic drop in
> cost, yet the suppliers still seem to stay n business.

Back to software, while having open source does indeed give slightly more "choice" in a technical/theoretical sense, in reality, this additional choice is *never* exercised by the vast majority of users. If a "freedom" is never exercised by 99.99 percent of users who have it, do you actually think that in any realistic way the users who don't have the choice are in any real sense "enslaved?" 

-- 
Regards
Bob Young



-- 
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Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 576 bytes --]

On Thursday 28 September 2006 18:03, "Bob Young" <BYoung@nucoretech.com> 
wrote about 'RE: [gentoo-amd64]  Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - 
slaveryware)':
> Intellectually you're technically correct, in real world terms it's a
> distinction without a difference.

I disagree on the second point, put I suppose that's a matter of opinion.

-- 
"If there's one thing we've established over the years,
it's that the vast majority of our users don't have the slightest
clue what's best for them in terms of package stability."
-- Gentoo Developer Ciaran McCreesh

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 189 bytes --]

RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Bob Young]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org]On Behalf Of Duncan
> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 5:41 PM
> To: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)
> 
> 
> "Bob Young" <BYoung@nucoretech.com> posted
> FAEEIJPAOFEMBBLKPMJEAEHIHKAA.BYoung@NuCORETech.com, excerpted below, on 
> Thu, 28 Sep 2006 16:03:25 -0700:

> > That's almost entirely a theoretical difference, in the real world this
> > "freedom" is actually exercised very little if at all. I'm sure there
> > are exceptions occasionally, but the fact is, the vast majority of OSS
> > users who can't read/write source code, will never once in their entire
> > life, contract with a third party to modify an app/driver/utility that
> > they have the source code for.
> 
> The vast majority of users, perhaps, but it's the exercise of this freedom
> is now a MAJOR factor, perhaps now THE major factor, in further FLOSS
> development. How many companies and even government agencies now pay
> developers to full-time or part-time work on FLOSS projects they are
> interested in?  That's /very/ /much/ "hiring their own mechanic", even if
> it's the original mechanic.

Now we're getting off in to other discussions, companies purchase the CSS IP of other companies all the time, such developement "polination" is certaintly not dependent on OSS. This particular discussion however, was about "slaveryware" vs "freedomware" from the viewpoint of the end user, not corporations. To the vast majority of end users, OSS, while a nice "feel good" thing, doesn't actually make them any more free in any real practical way. Conversly CSS doesn't actually enslave users at least in any practical sense. They're just words and hyperbole that don't stand the test of logic and practical reality.

Many people, accept this doctrine (from RS) of OSS being this magical freedom tool that automatically bestows something upon them if blindly support it. They never bother to actually take a look at the reality of the situation with a critical eye, or give it some honest thought, they just "drink the cool aid." I'm not talking about you Duncan, I honestly believe you've thought about this, and are sincere, though maybe a bit over zealous.

-- 
Regards
Bob Young



-- 
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[gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Duncan]

"Bob Young" <BYoung@nucoretech.com> posted
FAEEIJPAOFEMBBLKPMJEGEIDHKAA.BYoung@NuCORETech.com, excerpted below, on 
Thu, 28 Sep 2006 19:55:31 -0700:

> Now we're getting off in to other discussions, companies purchase the CSS
> IP of other companies all the time, such developement "polination" is
> certaintly not dependent on OSS. This particular discussion however, was
> about "slaveryware" vs "freedomware" from the viewpoint of the end user,
> not corporations. To the vast majority of end users, OSS, while a nice
> "feel good" thing, doesn't actually make them any more free in any real
> practical way.

Well, when a fair segment of end users /are/ corporations, and they are
the ones funding the development and responsible for the fact that it's
not just a hobby for many any more... I'd say excluding them from the
picture is itself unrealistic.  In fact, there are many disturbed by that
trend, and I see their point, but find the trend an inevitable result of
the mass popularization of what was once the few-hour-a-week-at-best hobby
of a handful of very geeky developers.

Another analogy can be made to voting.  Even the majority of folks
choosing to sit out a vote, many who may never have registered to vote at
all and don't really intend to, would have serious problems with a
suggestion that this right/freedom they have been choosing not to exercise
be taken away.  Just because you don't exercise it doesn't mean it's not a
freedom.

There's another aspect as well.  Thomas Jefferson is quoted as saying "The
tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of
patriots and tyrants."  (I recognize the name may not mean much to an
international audience, but those who wish to can of course look it up,
now that it's cited.)  While one hopes this particular liberty won't come
to that literally, there was a time a few years ago when I thought those
who refused to surrender such freedoms of the mind might end up imprisoned
-- and it could still happen, particularly in the areas of the arts as
opposed to computer sciences, where we have a head start.  After a bit of
self-examination, I realized I couldn't honestly say I was committed to
death, tho I believe in the freedom strongly enough that I /believe/ one
/should/ be that committed.  However, the reality is that some have
already been imprisoned over it -- even reaching across other nations'
laws to do it (xref Dmitry Sklyarov).  I realized that those believing
must certainly be prepared for that possibility, and that I felt it a
tradeoff worth the cost.

OTOH, it's foolish to needlessly tempt the legal fates, thus my insistence
that I literally /cannot/ at this point legally run most unfree software,
due to the EULAs, and therefore that I /will/ not do so.  For someone
considering the possibility of that level of sacrifice, telling that
friend mentioned earlier that I cannot legally view his clip in the format
it's currently in, merely foregoing that tiny bit of convenience while
creating a slightly awkward situation, is a foregone conclusion.  (I may
also observe that likely fortunately for me, I don't have the technical
skills to do the sort of reverse engineering that would be most likely to
get one in the most serious legal straits, so realistically, the chances
of it ever going beyond a trifling bit of inconvenience and perhaps a
takedown order for being part of a whack-a-mole game similar to the DeCSS
thing aren't as high as they'd be for a good coder and reverse engineer
with similar beliefs.)

Yes, that /does/ make me a radical to many, I realize that.  However,
that's the degree to which I hold the beliefs of slaveryware vs
freedomware, and why it's /going/ to come up from time to time in my
posts, as it's a rather large part of my world-view.  The only other
alternative would be to stop posting to whatever public forum (in the
generic/broad sense, so mailing list included) entirely.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Drew]

> it's stupid to say : open source (as GPL, LGPL, FLOSS etc..) is not
> necessary as we can just buy "open source" (but closed in fact)
> software. because of - closed source is "IP" (intellectuall property -
> watever this means, abstractive and poor words) and NOBODY exept the
> owner CAN modify it, change etc.

Closed Source isn't Intellectual Property. Intellectual Property
merely is what it is. And what it is quite simply is 'property' (in
whatever physical manifestation that takes) generated by one's
Intellect(good old grey matter). Closed or Open source is merely a
legal framework that defines how persons (other then the 'owner' of
said IP) may use the IP in question.

For example, say I was the person who came up with the idea of sending
data down a wire using packets. The concept of the packet is my IP. I
then create a physical manifestation of my idea in the form of a
document outlining how my idea works. Assuming I don't destroy the
document and leave it forever locked in my mind I now have to make a
choice about what legal framework to place around my IP to 'protect'
it.

Organizations like Microsoft chose to put a heavily restrictive legal
framework around the IP (closed source) whereas FLOSS organizations
tend to put less restrictive legal frameworks around their IP (open
source). And regardless of how restrictive (or not) the legal
framework is, it still exists in one form or another.


-Drew
-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Piotr Pruszczak]

> Closed Source isn't Intellectual Property. Intellectual Property
> merely is what it is. And what it is quite simply is 'property' (in
> whatever physical manifestation that takes) generated by one's
> Intellect(good old grey matter). Closed or Open source is merely a
> legal framework that defines how persons (other then the 'owner' of
> said IP) may use the IP in question.
> 
> 
> Organizations like Microsoft chose to put a heavily restrictive legal
> framework around the IP (closed source) whereas FLOSS organizations
> tend to put less restrictive legal frameworks around their IP (open
> source). And regardless of how restrictive (or not) the legal
> framework is, it still exists in one form or another.
> 
> 
> -Drew
but it is very often used combined, when you will ask ATI "why cannot 
you open drivers" you will hear "because of there are a number of 
patents which we 'probably violate' so we cannot open source"

and - of course - the second, more dangerous sample could be Microsoft, 
with all this actions which can cause the "moving on the screen cursor" 
will be unavailable for other then M$ systems, because it violates their 
patents, and their engineers and their families will die from hunger if 
we will not buy their OS

of course, this is very simplified what I said, however this business 
model is really not so good for the development of culture, technology, 
--->> whole humanity....

----------

true story from my life : my girl-friends father bought in China (as he 
is working on ships and he was close to there for a few months) DVD 
player, small and nice. than he brings it to home (Poland), bought a 
"Space Odyssey 2001" ... and how do you think ?? could he see the movie? 
of course NOT, because of the region was NOT correct. and please tell me 
- is it right ? legaly bought, but NOT_USABLE... and he was so surprised 
when he just found himself, that - in fact - he is NOT free with this 
technology.

regards,
Piotr
-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Antoine Martin]

I am sure you've got the best of intentions, but as far as I know:
* people are free to choose their vocabulary as they see fit on
gentoo-amd64. Especially when they are generally as helpful as Duncan ;)
* this is not the first time (and certainly not the last) that Duncan
and many others use those terms. In fact this is not the first time this
has degenerated into a discussion about those terms.
* Gentoo is free software and R.Stallman is the undisputed father of
free software, if you disagree with the terms that he uses regularly
himself, why not take it to a FSF list or another discussion forum.
This has *nothing* to do with amd64 specifically.
* I can understand why some people would feel these words are a tad
strong to describe software, but as I am forced to use "slaveryware"
everyday to drive my large lcd in 3D (no way around it): I still find it
a major PITA whenever it breaks (which is often) and so it does feel
like slavery. There you go, I said it.

Now can we all behave like adults and drop the long winded thread.
And in the future if anyone re-starts a thread like this one, can we
just point them to this thread (or the previous one) rather than
re-hashing the whole discussion everytime.
Let's agree to disagree and leave it there.

Regards
Antoine

On Thu, 2006-09-28 at 19:34 -0700, Bob Young wrote:
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org]On Behalf Of Duncan
> > Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 5:17 PM
> > To: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org
> > Subject: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)
> > 
> > 
> > "Bob Young" <BYoung@nucoretech.com> posted
> > FAEEIJPAOFEMBBLKPMJEMEHFHKAA.BYoung@NuCORETech.com, excerpted below, on 
> > Thu, 28 Sep 2006 15:43:12 -0700:
> > 
> > >> > I fail to see that it really makes much of a difference whether Jane
> > >> > Avgusr is dependent on a Linux kernel developer or on an engineer
> > >> > working at nVidia.
> > >> 
> > >> Because *no one* is dependent on the linux kernel developers. You can
> > >> make the needed changes.  If you don't have the ability to,
> > > 
> > > As is the case for 99.99 percent of the population.
> > 
> > That may be, but 99.99 percent of the population isn't me. 
> 
> True, but discussions regarding moral, ethical, or general policy questions, should have a broader base and application than my personal and specific opinion and viewpoint. 
>  
> > As I said in a different reply, "slaveryware" vs. "freedomware" is simply
> > the point in my experience I've come to.  I don't expect others to have
> > come to the same point, or necessarily find my terms represent their
> > experience.  All I'm doing is fairly representing my own experience,
> > calling things exactly as I see them, unvarnished with "political
> > correctness".
> 
> I don't care about political correctness, I care about reality, and in the real world, words have meaning, they don't just mean what each of us chooses for them personally. Just because you personally perceive CSS as slaveryware doesn't mean that such a term is justified by the actual reality of the situation.
> 
> I consider it somewhat of a copout, and just a bit disingenuous, to justify use of inflammatory terms with the "it's just my viewpoint" defense. I could justify my use of the word whore when referring to women by saying I don't mean it as derogatory. I could say that I'm not using it as a slur, and that I perceive it as just a general term. I could say no one else should take it as meaning otherwise when I use it, however that doesn't change the meaning one bit, nor does it change what people hear when I use the word, nor should it. The same argument could, and has, been used for nigger, faggot, Nazi, and a whole host of other inflammatory words. 
> 
> Just saying that you're in a "different place in your journey" doesn't change the meaning of words, nor how accurately (or NOT) they describe the reality of the situation.
>  
> > >> the skills* (or use your own time) to improve the software.  Clearly,
> > >> you have more options (and are thus more free) with free software.
> > > 
> > > If I'm not doing it myself, I see little difference whether I pay one
> > > entity, or pay another.
> > 
> > new drug to save your life or that of a loved one, or buying food and/or
> > paying rent.  The fact of the matter is, many suppliers gives you vastly
> > more freedom/flexibility than a single supplier, and with that
> > freedom/flexibility not coincidentally comes a rather drastic drop in
> > cost, yet the suppliers still seem to stay n business.
> 
> Back to software, while having open source does indeed give slightly more "choice" in a technical/theoretical sense, in reality, this additional choice is *never* exercised by the vast majority of users. If a "freedom" is never exercised by 99.99 percent of users who have it, do you actually think that in any realistic way the users who don't have the choice are in any real sense "enslaved?" 
> 
> -- 
> Regards
> Bob Young

-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Drew]

> > Closed Source isn't Intellectual Property. Intellectual Property
> > merely is what it is. And what it is quite simply is 'property' (in
> > whatever physical manifestation that takes) generated by one's
> > Intellect(good old grey matter). Closed or Open source is merely a
> > legal framework that defines how persons (other then the 'owner' of
> > said IP) may use the IP in question.
> >
> >
> > Organizations like Microsoft chose to put a heavily restrictive legal
> > framework around the IP (closed source) whereas FLOSS organizations
> > tend to put less restrictive legal frameworks around their IP (open
> > source). And regardless of how restrictive (or not) the legal
> > framework is, it still exists in one form or another.
> >
> >
> > -Drew
> but it is very often used combined, when you will ask ATI "why cannot
> you open drivers" you will hear "because of there are a number of
> patents which we 'probably violate' so we cannot open source"

For sure. That's the nature of the protective legal framework, namely
that it cascades to further derivative works. I also think in that's
Ati playing CYA.

> and - of course - the second, more dangerous sample could be Microsoft,
> with all this actions which can cause the "moving on the screen cursor"
> will be unavailable for other then M$ systems, because it violates their
> patents, and their engineers and their families will die from hunger if
> we will not buy their OS

Let's not get started on that 'patent'. I'd prefer the start to my
weekend to be peaceful. ;-)

> of course, this is very simplified what I said, however this business
> model is really not so good for the development of culture, technology,
> --->> whole humanity....

Totally. However, I can also understand the counterpoint of why people
might want to put restrictive protections on something they created.
The profit motive is a strong driver in the western world and anything
that gives me an edge over the competition, "that's a good thing."
(tm)


-Drew
-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[felix]

There sure as heck is a difference between slaveryware and
freedomware.  It may seem to you that, for non-programmers, there is
no difference between not being able to recode Microsoft or Apple
software vs Linux software, but there is a world of difference.  With
proprietary software, there is only once legal path to mods, and that
is to convince the owner to change the software as you would like,
either by big bucks or a massive publicity campaign.  With Linux, even
if I can't do it, there are hundreds of thousands of people who could,
and it would only take a few bucks or a good friend to do it.  It is
not only possible, easily, but also there is a lot of choice on how to
do it.  That is the essence of freedom.

It absolutely is just like a car, or a house, or anything else.  If my
house could only be modified by the original builder, it would never
be modified -- I'd never even get a picture hung for want of being
able to put a nail in a stud.  Now maybe I can't add a drawbridge to
my house myself, I can't do the welding or design, but my friend
could, and did.

There is a HUGE difference between slaveryware and freedomware.  A
vital essential difference.  It is why I run Linux myself.

-- 
            ... _._. ._ ._. . _._. ._. ___ .__ ._. . .__. ._ .. ._.
     Felix Finch: scarecrow repairman & rocket surgeon / felix@crowfix.com
  GPG = E987 4493 C860 246C 3B1E  6477 7838 76E9 182E 8151 ITAR license #4933
I've found a solution to Fermat's Last Theorem but I see I've run out of room o
-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[felix]

On Thu, Sep 28, 2006 at 04:03:25PM -0700, Bob Young wrote:

> That's almost entirely a theoretical difference, in the real world
> this "freedom" is actually exercised very little if at all.

Almost?!?  How many people actually use the freedoms guaranteed by the
US constitution?  For almost all of them, it is a theoretical freedom
they never use.  Look at the current brouhaha over habeas corpus for
non-citizens, just voted out of existence by Congress and almost
certain to be voided as unconstitutional by the Supreme Court for the
third time.  Almost no US citizen will ever be affected by this --
only two have been affected by it so far -- yet I doubt you'd be
interested in a constitutional amendment to remove it altogether.

Good gosh.  "Almost entirely a theoretical difference" -- what a
phrase.  I can't believe anyone could utter such nonsense.  I will
never have to worry about a tons of freedoms that are theoretically
guaranteed by the US constitution, but I am almighty glad they exist.

-- 
            ... _._. ._ ._. . _._. ._. ___ .__ ._. . .__. ._ .. ._.
     Felix Finch: scarecrow repairman & rocket surgeon / felix@crowfix.com
  GPG = E987 4493 C860 246C 3B1E  6477 7838 76E9 182E 8151 ITAR license #4933
I've found a solution to Fermat's Last Theorem but I see I've run out of room o
-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Bob Young]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org]On Behalf Of Duncan
> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 10:36 PM
> To: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)
> 
> 
> "Bob Young" <BYoung@nucoretech.com> posted
> FAEEIJPAOFEMBBLKPMJEGEIDHKAA.BYoung@NuCORETech.com, excerpted below, on 
> Thu, 28 Sep 2006 19:55:31 -0700:
> 
> > Now we're getting off in to other discussions, companies 
> purchase the CSS
> > IP of other companies all the time, such developement "polination" is
> > certaintly not dependent on OSS. This particular discussion however, was
> > about "slaveryware" vs "freedomware" from the viewpoint of the end user,
> > not corporations. To the vast majority of end users, OSS, while a nice
> > "feel good" thing, doesn't actually make them any more free in any real
> > practical way.
> 
> Well, when a fair segment of end users /are/ corporations, and they are
> the ones funding the development and responsible for the fact that it's
> not just a hobby for many any more... I'd say excluding them from the
> picture is itself unrealistic.  In fact, there are many disturbed by that
> trend, and I see their point, but find the trend an inevitable result of
> the mass popularization of what was once the few-hour-a-week-at-best hobby
> of a handful of very geeky developers.

The discussion was centered around the terms freedomware and slaveryware, and thus by extension freedom and enslavement. I'd like to know how, in a capitalistic society, a corporation is "enslaved."

> 
> Another analogy can be made to voting.  Even the majority of folks
> choosing to sit out a vote, many who may never have registered to vote at
> all and don't really intend to, would have serious problems with a
> suggestion that this right/freedom they have been choosing not to exercise
> be taken away.  Just because you don't exercise it doesn't mean it's not a
> freedom.

I believe I've already admitted that technically you're correct, I'm just saying that the absence of such a choice doesn't justify the term enslavement.

> There's another aspect as well.  Thomas Jefferson is quoted as saying "The
> tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of
> patriots and tyrants."  (I recognize the name may not mean much to an
> international audience, but those who wish to can of course look it up,
> now that it's cited.)  While one hopes this particular liberty won't come
> to that literally, there was a time a few years ago when I thought those
> who refused to surrender such freedoms of the mind might end up imprisoned
> -- and it could still happen, particularly in the areas of the arts as
> opposed to computer sciences, where we have a head start.  After a bit of
> self-examination, I realized I couldn't honestly say I was committed to
> death, tho I believe in the freedom strongly enough that I /believe/ one
> /should/ be that committed.  However, the reality is that some have
> already been imprisoned over it -- even reaching across other nations'
> laws to do it (xref Dmitry Sklyarov).  I realized that those believing
> must certainly be prepared for that possibility, and that I felt it a
> tradeoff worth the cost.

I find many aspects of the DMCA abhorrent, and I'd agree that a number of our freedoms are being restricted, curtailed, or even outright taken away, especially in the digital realm. However, legislation, such as the DMCA, apply to actions that are either allowed or not allowed. If everything were open source, things that are illegal under the DMCA would still be illegal, it would just be easier to break the law. For example, there would be no need to reverse engineer CSS in order to produce DeCSS, but defeating CSS would still be illegal. IOW, open sourcing everything is not the solution, the solution is to abolish or at least correct bad law. 

In this particular example I believe society is better served by letting the technology battle between content providers and hackers continue, without the heavy arm of the law unfairly protecting one side. I don't believe content providers should be forced to open source their protection methods, but neither should it be illegal for the hackers to try and crack that protection. Let the two sides do their best, and society will benefit as new and better technology results.

> OTOH, it's foolish to needlessly tempt the legal fates, thus my insistence
> that I literally /cannot/ at this point legally run most unfree software,
> due to the EULAs, and therefore that I /will/ not do so.  For someone
> considering the possibility of that level of sacrifice, telling that
> friend mentioned earlier that I cannot legally view his clip in the format
> it's currently in, merely foregoing that tiny bit of convenience while
> creating a slightly awkward situation, is a foregone conclusion. 

The vast majority of users, don't care about having source code available, and even the users who do have source code available for their apps utilities, and drivers *never* actually have some third party modify it for them. So again I will ask, is the term "enslaved" really justified when referring to users who don't have this choice?


> Yes, that /does/ make me a radical to many, I realize that.  However,
> that's the degree to which I hold the beliefs of slaveryware vs
> freedomware, and why it's /going/ to come up from time to time in my
> posts, as it's a rather large part of my world-view.  The only other
> alternative would be to stop posting to whatever public forum (in the
> generic/broad sense, so mailing list included) entirely.

Okay, I'm done, I think I've laid out a pretty good case demonstrating that the terms "slaveryware" and "freedomware" aren't justified and don't reflect reality. I've tried to keep the discussion focused on these two words and whether or not they accurately reflect the true relationship between vendors and users in the context of closed source versus open source. In response you've been all over the map, bringing up the DMCA, corporate development, prescription drug purchases, etc. You're going to continue to justify the use of these two terms with the "that's the way I see it" defense, and you will do so regardless of all logic and reason, so I'm done, there seems little point in continuing.



-- 
Regards
Bob Young



-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Bob Sanders]

felix@crowfix.com, mused, then expounded:
> 
> It absolutely is just like a car, or a house, or anything else.  If my
> house could only be modified by the original builder, it would never
> be modified -- I'd never even get a picture hung for want of being
> able to put a nail in a stud.  Now maybe I can't add a drawbridge to
> my house myself, I can't do the welding or design, but my friend
> could, and did.
>

And this points out some of the irony I find amusing.  If I or someone
else wants to add a piece of hardware to a motherboard supporting an
Intel processor, not only does it cost lots of money,  I have to sign
away certain rights for the privledge to do so.  And even then, I
may not be allowed to do anything at all because it's of no interest to
Intel - won't sell enough platforms, or Intel may choose to take my
idea and do their own.  On the other hand, I pay my money to the
HyperTransport Org, agree to contribute bus specific IP back to the
the organization, and I'm free to do as I please.  Even, with a bit
of NDA and some loss of rights, use AMD's cpu socket.  But AMD isn't
going to stop me from persuing most things.

Yet, in all of this, I read that folks most sincere about "freedomware"
will gladly go out and by Intel platforms simply because they, or
someone else can write code for Intel's graphics chip or because
Intel's current platform has great benchmark numbers, even though
it limits their choice of hardware - Intel chips, and vendors -
only those blessed by Intel with the secret knowledge of their bus.

While this isn't meant to be Intel bashing, nor trying to portray
AMD as some kind of saintly corporate enitiy.  Given the stances
that have been expounded here, if it's really good to have choice
and freedom in software to avoid lockin, why doesn't this thinking
extend to the hardware?  Or is it just fine that your Corporate
Master is a hardware company?

> There is a HUGE difference between slaveryware and freedomware.  A
> vital essential difference.  It is why I run Linux myself.
>

I run Linux, and Gentoo specifically, because I dislike being told
what I can do on my computer and how I am to do it.  I run an AMD platform
because I dislike being told there is one way my platform shall operate,
and from whom I shall buy my chips from.   (Note, the what and how,
for me doesn't include going without a package manager, nor is
messing with CFLAGS of interest to me.)

Bob
-  
-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware)

[Bob Young]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Antoine Martin [mailto:antoine@nagafix.co.uk]
> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 4:04 AM
> To: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift
> -slaveryware)
>
>
> I am sure you've got the best of intentions, but as far as I know:
> * people are free to choose their vocabulary as they see fit on
> gentoo-amd64.

I'm not saying he doesn't have the freedom to use them, I'm suggesting that
they are inaccurate and their connotations don't reflect the true
relationship between vendors and users, and for that reason their use should
be reconsidered.

>  Especially when they are generally as helpful as Duncan ;)

I agree that Duncan is very helpful, and verbose. However that's a separate
issue from whether or not "freedomware" and "slaveryware" are accurate
descriptions.

> * Gentoo is free software and R.Stallman is the undisputed father of
> free software, if you disagree with the terms that he uses regularly
> himself, why not take it to a FSF list or another discussion forum.

I'm not on a crusade, I'm on this list, and this it where it came to my
attention, so I'm discussing it here.

> This has *nothing* to do with amd64 specifically.

The whole point of human communication is for people to interact, if a
thread is off topic, but clearly labeled, it's trivial for those not
interested to ignore. For those who are interested it may provoke thought or
give insight into the topic they had not previously considered.

*ALL* threads eventually die, regardless of whether on topic or off. As long
as participants are willing to continue replying, what harm is there to you
personally in the thread continuing?


> * I can understand why some people would feel these words are a tad
> strong to describe software, but as I am forced to use "slaveryware"
> everyday to drive my large lcd in 3D (no way around it): I still find it
> a major PITA whenever it breaks (which is often) and so it does feel
> like slavery. There you go, I said it.

When a user (who can't read/write source code) has an OSS app or utility
break frequently, should they feel enslaved?

> Now can we all behave like adults and drop the long winded thread.

Why does it bother you?

> And in the future if anyone re-starts a thread like this one, can we
> just point them to this thread (or the previous one) rather than
> re-hashing the whole discussion everytime.
> Let's agree to disagree and leave it there.

Hmmmm....you don't think Duncan should restrict his use of inaccurate terms,
but you want to restrict what topics I or others should reply to...does the
word inconsistent mean anything to you?

--
Regards
Bob Young


-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[felix]

On Fri, Sep 29, 2006 at 12:23:12PM -0700, Bob Sanders wrote:

> I run Linux, and Gentoo specifically, because I dislike being told
> what I can do on my computer and how I am to do it.  I run an AMD platform
> because I dislike being told there is one way my platform shall operate,
> and from whom I shall buy my chips from.   (Note, the what and how,
> for me doesn't include going without a package manager, nor is
> messing with CFLAGS of interest to me.)

That is interesting.  I had always thought the only difference was in
the results, and that is why all my recent machines have been AMD,
that Intel seemed to be too stuck on pure Mhz to concentrate on better
processors.  I had no idea that Intel had those kinds of limits.  They
dont' apply to me, for sure, but it is interesting, and maybe that is
why I thought AMD motherboards more interesting, as a result of
Intel's anal-retentive policies making Intel motherboards less
imaginative.

I have long had a fantasy of sorts of someone coming out with a
generic processor taht could be reconfigured on the fly -- of coming
up with my own instruction set for it, so a custom gcc backend could
produce code for it, and it would be immune to all malware which
depends on the specific instruction set.  Even, at moments, thinking
of having permutations of the instructions every few months, just to
ad variety to things.  I had brief moments of interest in Transmeta
for just that reason, but they quickly disappeared.

-- 
            ... _._. ._ ._. . _._. ._. ___ .__ ._. . .__. ._ .. ._.
     Felix Finch: scarecrow repairman & rocket surgeon / felix@crowfix.com
  GPG = E987 4493 C860 246C 3B1E  6477 7838 76E9 182E 8151 ITAR license #4933
I've found a solution to Fermat's Last Theorem but I see I've run out of room o
-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Bob Young]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: felix@crowfix.com [mailto:felix@crowfix.com]
> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 11:25 AM
> To: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -
> slaveryware)
>
>
> With Linux, even
> if I can't do it, there are hundreds of thousands of people who could,
> and it would only take a few bucks or a good friend to do it.  It is
> not only possible, easily, but also there is a lot of choice on how to
> do it.  That is the essence of freedom.

That's a very shallow definition of the "essence of freedom," from the
perspective of most end users, your scenario doesn't really change anything.
>From the end users perspective s/he is still dependent on someone else to
make the changes. I wouldn't say having a choice of who to be dependent upon
actually qualifies as "freedom."

> It absolutely is just like a car, or a house, or anything else.  If my
> house could only be modified by the original builder, it would never
> be modified -- I'd never even get a picture hung for want of being
> able to put a nail in a stud.  Now maybe I can't add a drawbridge to
> my house myself, I can't do the welding or design, but my friend
> could, and did.

Analogies suck, software isn't a car, or a house, or anything else, it's
software. If you can't make you're point without analogies, maybe you
haven't thought it through clearly enough.

>
> There is a HUGE difference between slaveryware and freedomware.

No there's not, they are just hyperbolic words that have little actual
meaning behind them, at least none that can be supported with concrete
reason and logic.

> A
> vital essential difference.  It is why I run Linux myself.

I run Linux also, why else would I be subscribed to this list, I just don't
blindly accept everything that R. Stallman, or the FSF, or anyone else says.
I consider the facts, and look at the reality of the situation, and decide
for myself what opinion to take.

--
Regards
Bob Young


-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Bob Sanders]

felix@crowfix.com, mused, then expounded:
> 
> I have long had a fantasy of sorts of someone coming out with a
> generic processor taht could be reconfigured on the fly -- of coming
> up with my own instruction set for it, so a custom gcc backend could
> produce code for it, and it would be immune to all malware which
> depends on the specific instruction set.  Even, at moments, thinking
> of having permutations of the instructions every few months, just to
> ad variety to things.  I had brief moments of interest in Transmeta
> for just that reason, but they quickly disappeared.
>

Well, not generic, but in the same spirit, it can plug into an AMD 940
pin cpu socket.  And one has two vendors to choose from -

   http://www.drccomputer.com/
   http://www.xtremedatainc.com/

Not exactly cheap to get into, and it doesn't use gcc as it's VHDL.  So,
maybe too restrictive, but it's re-configurable and 1 or more,, up to
7 can theoretically be used in an 8 socket AMD based platform.  Interestingly
enough, both companies development stations come with Linux as the os.

Bob
-  
-- 
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RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Bob Young]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: felix@crowfix.com [mailto:felix@crowfix.com]
> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 11:34 AM
> To: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -
> slaveryware)
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 28, 2006 at 04:03:25PM -0700, Bob Young wrote:
>
> > That's almost entirely a theoretical difference, in the real world
> > this "freedom" is actually exercised very little if at all.
>
> Almost?!?

Yes Almost!

> How many people actually use the freedoms guaranteed by the
> US constitution?

Article 1 - Free exercise of religion: Lots of people every day.
Article 2 - Right to keep and bear arms: Regulated, but many many people own
guns.
Article 12 - Right to vote: True that the percentage of voter turn out isn't
as high as it should be, but many people do vote.

> For almost all of them, it is a theoretical freedom they never use.

Bullshit, You think that people's free exercise of religion is a
"theoretical freedom."

> Look at the current brouhaha over habeas corpus for
> non-citizens, just voted out of existence by Congress and almost
> certain to be voided as unconstitutional by the Supreme Court for the
> third time.  Almost no US citizen will ever be affected by this --
> only two have been affected by it so far -- yet I doubt you'd be
> interested in a constitutional amendment to remove it altogether.

You'd have a point if open source actually provided some type *real* freedom
for *everyone,* but it doesn't, and you don't. Open source has benefits, but
claiming that it is somehow on the same plane as constitutional rights is
just silly.

> Good gosh.  "Almost entirely a theoretical difference" -- what a
> phrase.

A completely valid one in relation to OSS.

> I can't believe anyone could utter such nonsense.

It's only nonsense if one has some blind allegiance to open source, and is
therefore willing to bestow upon it attributes it doesn't actually have.

--
Regards
Bob Young


-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware)

[Richard Fish]

On 9/29/06, Bob Young <BYoung@nucoretech.com> wrote:
> I'm not saying he doesn't have the freedom to use them, I'm suggesting that
> they are inaccurate and their connotations don't reflect the true
> relationship between vendors and users, and for that reason their use should
> be reconsidered.

But they *do* accurately reflect the relationship between vendors and
users from Duncan's viewpoint.  Your viewpoint is obviously different,
but doesn't mean yours is the only "true" one.

> When a user (who can't read/write source code) has an OSS app or utility
> break frequently, should they feel enslaved?

No.  They should feel empowered to learn about programming and help
fix it, or entice others to do so.

-Richard
-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[felix]

On Fri, Sep 29, 2006 at 01:41:36PM -0700, Bob Young wrote:

> Article 1 - Free exercise of religion: Lots of people every day.
> Article 2 - Right to keep and bear arms: Regulated, but many many people own
> guns.
> Article 12 - Right to vote: True that the percentage of voter turn out isn't
> as high as it should be, but many people do vote.

Please give some example from news sources of people today who have to
go to court to enforce those freedoms.  Not very many, is it?  Seems
pretty theoretical to me.

-- 
            ... _._. ._ ._. . _._. ._. ___ .__ ._. . .__. ._ .. ._.
     Felix Finch: scarecrow repairman & rocket surgeon / felix@crowfix.com
  GPG = E987 4493 C860 246C 3B1E  6477 7838 76E9 182E 8151 ITAR license #4933
I've found a solution to Fermat's Last Theorem but I see I've run out of room o
-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[felix]

On Fri, Sep 29, 2006 at 01:10:15PM -0700, Bob Young wrote:

> Analogies suck, software isn't a car, or a house, or anything else, it's
> software. If you can't make you're point without analogies, maybe you
> haven't thought it through clearly enough.

Heh.  Analogies are beyond your grasp, eh?  I kinda doubt it, sir.  I
have to admit I have never before run across anyone who thinks
analogies suck.  Maybe it is a sign of the weakness of your arguments
that they can't survive a good analogy.  Personally, I like analogies,
and I bet even a simple google of your email history would show more
than a few analogies from you.  I doubt very much you are so shallow
as to hate analogies, and I doubt just as much that you'd now refute
whatever analogies you have used in support of your own arguments.

-- 
            ... _._. ._ ._. . _._. ._. ___ .__ ._. . .__. ._ .. ._.
     Felix Finch: scarecrow repairman & rocket surgeon / felix@crowfix.com
  GPG = E987 4493 C860 246C 3B1E  6477 7838 76E9 182E 8151 ITAR license #4933
I've found a solution to Fermat's Last Theorem but I see I've run out of room o
-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Richard Fish]

On 9/29/06, Bob Young <BYoung@nucoretech.com> wrote:
> That's a very shallow definition of the "essence of freedom," from the
> perspective of most end users, your scenario doesn't really change anything.
> From the end users perspective s/he is still dependent on someone else to
> make the changes. I wouldn't say having a choice of who to be dependent upon
> actually qualifies as "freedom."

But the user can also choose to not be dependant upon anybody.  They
can choose to learn about programming and languages and fix it
themselves.  If you say you have no interest in doing that, then you
are *choosing* to be dependant upon somebody, and now you have to pick
who to become dependant on.  But that doesn't change the fact that you
can still choose to not be dependant on anybody.  Sounds like
"freedom" to me...

> > It absolutely is just like a car, or a house, or anything else.  If my
> > house could only be modified by the original builder, it would never
> > be modified -- I'd never even get a picture hung for want of being
> > able to put a nail in a stud.  Now maybe I can't add a drawbridge to
> > my house myself, I can't do the welding or design, but my friend
> > could, and did.
>
> Analogies suck, software isn't a car, or a house, or anything else, it's
> software. If you can't make you're point without analogies, maybe you
> haven't thought it through clearly enough.

Yes, all analogies are imperfect by definition.  But many people find
that creating analogies to other industries and products helps them
understand the issues.

> I consider the facts, and look at the reality of the situation, and decide
> for myself what opinion to take.

Fine.  But why should someone who believes that the terms
"slaveryware" and "freedomware" are the most accurate reflection of
*their* opinion stop using the terms?

-Richard
-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware)

[Bob Young]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: richard.j.fish@gmail.com [mailto:richard.j.fish@gmail.com]On
> Behalf Of Richard Fish
> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 2:07 PM
> To: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift
> -slaveryware)
>
>
> On 9/29/06, Bob Young <BYoung@nucoretech.com> wrote:

> > I'm not saying he doesn't have the freedom to use them, I'm suggesting
that
> > they are inaccurate and their connotations don't reflect the true
> > relationship between vendors and users, and for that reason their use
should
> > be reconsidered.
>
> But they *do* accurately reflect the relationship between vendors and
> users from Duncan's viewpoint.  Your viewpoint is obviously different,
> but doesn't mean yours is the only "true" one.

Oh please, spare me the relative truth crap. You can argue all you want that
it's true from Duncan's perspective because that's the way it *feels* to
him. In the end that's just feel good rationalization and total bullshit. It
conveniently avoids the confrontational point, namely that there isn't any
hard concrete logic and reason to support or justify the usage of words such
as slaveryware and freedomware.

> > When a user (who can't read/write source code) has an OSS app or utility
> > break frequently, should they feel enslaved?
>
> No.  They should feel empowered to learn about programming and help
> fix it, or entice others to do so.

That's obviously not what currently happens for the vast majority of people
using OSS, why is that, what's wrong?

Secondly, if you think thats going to change anytime soon, I'd love to know
what evidence supports such a belief.

--
Regards
Bob Young


-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Bob Young]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: felix@crowfix.com [mailto:felix@crowfix.com]
> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 2:09 PM
> To: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -
> slaveryware)
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 29, 2006 at 01:41:36PM -0700, Bob Young wrote:
>
> > Article 1 - Free exercise of religion: Lots of people every day.


> Please give some example from news sources of people today who have to
> go to court to enforce those freedoms.  Not very many, is it?
> Seems
> pretty theoretical to me.


No one goes to court to "enforce" freedoms, it is the job of the courts, and
ultimately, the U.S. Supreme court, to determine whether or not a right
delineated in the constitution has been violated. I don't consider Supreme
court rulings to be theoretical. OTOH, people exercise their constitutional
rights such as freedom of religion, and the right to bear arms, each and
every day, there is nothing theoretical about that either, so sorry, I don't
understand your point.

I'll just say again that I think to equate open source with the freedoms
granted by the constitution is hyperbolic, silly, and tends to somewhat
trivialize the true definition of freedom.

--
Regards
Bob Young


-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware)

[Richard Fish]

On 9/29/06, Bob Young <BYoung@nucoretech.com> wrote:
> > But they *do* accurately reflect the relationship between vendors and
> > users from Duncan's viewpoint.  Your viewpoint is obviously different,
> > but doesn't mean yours is the only "true" one.
>
> Oh please, spare me the relative truth crap. You can argue all you want that
> it's true from Duncan's perspective because that's the way it *feels* to
> him. In the end that's just feel good rationalization and total bullshit.

Ok, so now you are saying that Duncan's opinion is wrong.  You don't
respect Duncan's opinion, but you expect us to respect yours?  I call
hypocrite.

> conveniently avoids the confrontational point, namely that there isn't any
> hard concrete logic and reason to support or justify the usage of words such
> as slaveryware and freedomware.

Hard concrete logic: *everybody* has the right to modify and
distribute open source software.  How is that *not* freedom?

BTW, it doesn't matter to me how many people actually exercise that
right.  I choose not to own a gun...that doesn't at all effect my
freedom to do so if I choose.

> > No.  They should feel empowered to learn about programming and help
> > fix it, or entice others to do so.
>
> That's obviously not what currently happens for the vast majority of people
> using OSS, why is that, what's wrong?

Are you saying that the "vast majority" of users do _nothing_ when
they run into a problem with OSS?  That they do not post to a mail
list, or forum, or IRC, or file a bug report?  All of those activities
fall under the "entice others to do so" category IMO, and if that is
what you are claiming, I want to see your poll numbers, because it is
not at all "obvious" to me.

Oh, wait, I can hear you now: "but that is no different than with
closed source".  You already know the counter argument: with closed
source, the only people who can provide the patch are those who own
the source.  With open source, anybody can produce and send a patch to
the user.  So with open source, even if the user doesn't exercise
their freedom directly, they can (and do) ask others to exercise that
freedom on their behalf.

-Richard
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware)

[Richard Fish]

On 9/29/06, Richard Fish <bigfish@asmallpond.org> wrote:
> On 9/29/06, Bob Young <BYoung@nucoretech.com> wrote:
> > > But they *do* accurately reflect the relationship between vendors and
> > > users from Duncan's viewpoint.  Your viewpoint is obviously different,
> > > but doesn't mean yours is the only "true" one.
> >
> > Oh please, spare me the relative truth crap. You can argue all you want that
> > it's true from Duncan's perspective because that's the way it *feels* to
> > him. In the end that's just feel good rationalization and total bullshit.
>
> Ok, so now you are saying that Duncan's opinion is wrong.  You don't
> respect Duncan's opinion, but you expect us to respect yours?  I call
> hypocrite.

BTW, just for the record, I do not equate closed source with slavery.
Nobody is going to be stoned, crucified, or burned at the stake for
refusing to use some piece of software.  It is a choice of which
software to use, and for almost all cases, there is enough competition
in the industry that nobody should feel enslaved by their choices.

However, I also recognize that Duncan has much stronger opinions on
the subject than I do, so I understand why he uses the terms that he
does.  When he uses the terms, I have no misunderstanding of what he
means, even if I don't agree.  So I consider them perfectly accurate
representations of his opinions.

-Richard
-- 
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RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Bob Young]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: richard.j.fish@gmail.com [mailto:richard.j.fish@gmail.com]On
> Behalf Of Richard Fish
> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 2:27 PM
> To: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -
> slaveryware)
>
>
> On 9/29/06, Bob Young <BYoung@nucoretech.com> wrote:
> > That's a very shallow definition of the "essence of freedom," from the
> > perspective of most end users, your scenario doesn't really
> change anything.
> > From the end users perspective s/he is still dependent on
> someone else to
> > make the changes. I wouldn't say having a choice of who to be
> dependent upon
> > actually qualifies as "freedom."
>
> But the user can also choose to not be dependant upon anybody.  They
> can choose to learn about programming and languages and fix it
> themselves.  If you say you have no interest in doing that, then you
> are *choosing* to be dependant upon somebody, and now you have to pick
> who to become dependant on.  But that doesn't change the fact that you
> can still choose to not be dependant on anybody.  Sounds like
> "freedom" to me...

Technically yes, I've said that all along. However, in real world practical
terms, how truly *valuable* is this "freedom"...?

Would you go to war, or be willing to die for the "freedom" that open source
provides? If not, then equating it with the freedoms that real mean and
women have fought and died for is to marginalize the importance the word is
meant to convey.

I'm not saying that open source should be outlawed, or even that it
shouldn't be advocated for, as it does have some advantages. I'm just saying
that the quote unquote "freedom," that it provides, doesn't really justify
the use of words like freedomware and slaveryware.


> > > It absolutely is just like a car, or a house, or anything else.  If my
> > > house could only be modified by the original builder, it would never
> > > be modified -- I'd never even get a picture hung for want of being
> > > able to put a nail in a stud.  Now maybe I can't add a drawbridge to
> > > my house myself, I can't do the welding or design, but my friend
> > > could, and did.
> >
> > Analogies suck, software isn't a car, or a house, or anything else, it's
> > software. If you can't make you're point without analogies, maybe you
> > haven't thought it through clearly enough.
>
> Yes, all analogies are imperfect by definition.  But many people find
> that creating analogies to other industries and products helps them
> understand the issues.

I should have been more specific and said that *software* analogies suck.
The problem is that almost invariably the analogies are to three dimensional
objects in the physical world, and software isn't even one dimensional, and
thus, rarely do such analogies actually add any real clarity to the picture.

> > I consider the facts, and look at the reality of the situation,
> and decide
> > for myself what opinion to take.
>
> Fine.  But why should someone who believes that the terms
> "slaveryware" and "freedomware" are the most accurate reflection of
> *their* opinion stop using the terms?

For one, there isn't any good, factual, logical, basis to justify their use.
Secondly, the use of such words in relation to something as trivial as open
source, (trivial least in comparison to other things that freedom is
justifiably used in relation to), tends trivialize the meaning of the word
freedom.

--
Regards
Bob Young


-- 
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Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Richard Fish]

On 9/29/06, Bob Young <BYoung@nucoretech.com> wrote:
> Would you go to war, or be willing to die for the "freedom" that open source
> provides? If not, then equating it with the freedoms that real mean and
> women have fought and died for is to marginalize the importance the word is
> meant to convey.

No, but that is *my* opinion.  However Duncan has stated previously
that, while he probably wouldn't be willing to die to defend his
freedom regarding open source software, that he _should_ be willing to
do so.  So by your standard, *his* use of those terms is really not
all that far fetched.

I do agree that the terms are very strong..much stronger than my
feelings on the subject, which is why I do not use them.  But you
really should read what Duncan has said previously on this [1].  His
feelings are very strong on the subject...strong enough to justify his
use of these terms IMO.

-Richard

[1] http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.amd64/8196
-- 
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RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Peter Davoust]

> Would you go to war, or be willing to die for the "freedom" that open
> source
> provides? If not, then equating it with the freedoms that real mean
> and
> women have fought and died for is to marginalize the importance the
> word is
> meant to convey.
Uh oh; we're going to talk about Iraq now, aren't we? Let's keep this in
perspective. We tend to drift towards the idea that computers are
invincible, and that our data will survive forever, but one massive EM
pulse, and all data our data is buried for the rest of time. I don't
think that we can equate war to open source software. If someone held a
gun to my head and told me to install Windows, I wouldn't say, "No, I'm
going to stand here with my Linux and you can't make me do otherwise"...
BAM! 
	This is not to say that I like fascism. I am not pleased with
dictatorship or the current regime in America, but I don't think that
open-source software is worth dieing for. The principle, however, of
freedom of choice may be, but that has nothing to do with the present
discussion of playing WMV files on your computer. 


-Peter
On Fri, 2006-09-29 at 15:42 -0700, Bob Young wrote:
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: richard.j.fish@gmail.com [mailto:richard.j.fish@gmail.com]On
> > Behalf Of Richard Fish
> > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 2:27 PM
> > To: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org
> > Subject: Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -
> > slaveryware)
> >
> >
> > On 9/29/06, Bob Young <BYoung@nucoretech.com> wrote:
> > > That's a very shallow definition of the "essence of freedom," from the
> > > perspective of most end users, your scenario doesn't really
> > change anything.
> > > From the end users perspective s/he is still dependent on
> > someone else to
> > > make the changes. I wouldn't say having a choice of who to be
> > dependent upon
> > > actually qualifies as "freedom."
> >
> > But the user can also choose to not be dependant upon anybody.  They
> > can choose to learn about programming and languages and fix it
> > themselves.  If you say you have no interest in doing that, then you
> > are *choosing* to be dependant upon somebody, and now you have to pick
> > who to become dependant on.  But that doesn't change the fact that you
> > can still choose to not be dependant on anybody.  Sounds like
> > "freedom" to me...
> 
> Technically yes, I've said that all along. However, in real world practical
> terms, how truly *valuable* is this "freedom"...?
> 
> Would you go to war, or be willing to die for the "freedom" that open source
> provides? If not, then equating it with the freedoms that real mean and
> women have fought and died for is to marginalize the importance the word is
> meant to convey.
> 
> I'm not saying that open source should be outlawed, or even that it
> shouldn't be advocated for, as it does have some advantages. I'm just saying
> that the quote unquote "freedom," that it provides, doesn't really justify
> the use of words like freedomware and slaveryware.
> 
> 
> > > > It absolutely is just like a car, or a house, or anything else.  If my
> > > > house could only be modified by the original builder, it would never
> > > > be modified -- I'd never even get a picture hung for want of being
> > > > able to put a nail in a stud.  Now maybe I can't add a drawbridge to
> > > > my house myself, I can't do the welding or design, but my friend
> > > > could, and did.
> > >
> > > Analogies suck, software isn't a car, or a house, or anything else, it's
> > > software. If you can't make you're point without analogies, maybe you
> > > haven't thought it through clearly enough.
> >
> > Yes, all analogies are imperfect by definition.  But many people find
> > that creating analogies to other industries and products helps them
> > understand the issues.
> 
> I should have been more specific and said that *software* analogies suck.
> The problem is that almost invariably the analogies are to three dimensional
> objects in the physical world, and software isn't even one dimensional, and
> thus, rarely do such analogies actually add any real clarity to the picture.
> 
> > > I consider the facts, and look at the reality of the situation,
> > and decide
> > > for myself what opinion to take.
> >
> > Fine.  But why should someone who believes that the terms
> > "slaveryware" and "freedomware" are the most accurate reflection of
> > *their* opinion stop using the terms?
> 
> For one, there isn't any good, factual, logical, basis to justify their use.
> Secondly, the use of such words in relation to something as trivial as open
> source, (trivial least in comparison to other things that freedom is
> justifiably used in relation to), tends trivialize the meaning of the word
> freedom.
> 
> --
> Regards
> Bob Young
> 
> 

-- 
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[gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Duncan]

felix@crowfix.com posted 20060929183339.GB571@crowfix.com, excerpted
below, on  Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:33:39 -0700:

> On Thu, Sep 28, 2006 at 04:03:25PM -0700, Bob Young wrote:
> 
>> That's almost entirely a theoretical difference, in the real world this
>> "freedom" is actually exercised very little if at all.
> 
> Almost?!?  How many people actually use the freedoms guaranteed by the US
> constitution?  For almost all of them, it is a theoretical freedom they
> never use.

I was trying /very/ hard not to open up another can of worms, at least
keeping it as much to software as possible.  I tend to agree and would
normally continue this angle, but this isn't really the place for
the discussion after it has left software entirely.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

-- 
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Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Peter Davoust]

I agree fully that I would probably be willing to die for the principle
or main idea of freedom of choice, aka not microsoft-monopoly. We see
this in the Student's revolt in China, the freedom fighters in South
Africa (the black panthers, or was that America?), and then the same
thing in America: People like myself without families were willing to
die for ideas that they believed strongly enough in, however people (I
assume Duncan has a family) who had families were not willing to die for
such ideas. Open-source software is not a cause worthy of death, but it
is a representation of the cause: freedom of choice.

-Peter
On Fri, 2006-09-29 at 16:20 -0700, Richard Fish wrote:
> On 9/29/06, Bob Young <BYoung@nucoretech.com> wrote:
> > Would you go to war, or be willing to die for the "freedom" that open source
> > provides? If not, then equating it with the freedoms that real mean and
> > women have fought and died for is to marginalize the importance the word is
> > meant to convey.
> 
> No, but that is *my* opinion.  However Duncan has stated previously
> that, while he probably wouldn't be willing to die to defend his
> freedom regarding open source software, that he _should_ be willing to
> do so.  So by your standard, *his* use of those terms is really not
> all that far fetched.
> 
> I do agree that the terms are very strong..much stronger than my
> feelings on the subject, which is why I do not use them.  But you
> really should read what Duncan has said previously on this [1].  His
> feelings are very strong on the subject...strong enough to justify his
> use of these terms IMO.
> 
> -Richard
> 
> [1] http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.amd64/8196

-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-amd64] mplayer vs mplayer-bin = sound vs picture

[Paul Colquhoun]

I currently have a dilemma.

When I use kmplayer to watch a video (wmv format, in this case) it 
appears I have a choice. If I configure kmplayer to use mplayer, I get 
sound but no picture, conversely, if I configure kmplayer to use 
mplayer-bin (with no other config changes) I get a picture, but no 
sound.

"esearch mplayer" gives (in part)

*  media-video/kmplayer
      Latest version available: 0.9.3
      Latest version installed: 0.9.3
      Size of downloaded files: 2,763 kB
      Homepage:    http://kmplayer.kde.org/
      Description: KMPlayer is a Video player plugin for Konqueror and 
basic MPlayer/Xine/ffmpeg/ffserver/VDR frontend for KDE.
      License:     GPL-2

*  media-video/mplayer
      Latest version available: 1.0_pre8-r1
      Latest version installed: 1.0_pre8-r1
      Size of downloaded files: 28,416 kB
      Homepage:    http://www.mplayerhq.hu/
      Description: Media Player for Linux
      License:     GPL-2

*  media-video/mplayer-bin
      Latest version available: 1.0_pre8
      Latest version installed: 1.0_pre8
      Size of downloaded files: 21,341 kB
      Homepage:    http://www.gentoo.org/
      Description: Pre-build mplayer binary for amd64 systems
      License:     GPL-2


I don't often watch videos on my computer, so I don't know how long this 
has been happening. I vaguely recall watching another short clip about 
4 weeks ago, and not noticing anything wrong then.


Does mplayer-bin require any different sound settings?

System sounds (window open/close, etc) are working normally, as are 
other programs (mp3 players).

Any suggestions as to what I can try next?


-- 
Reverend Paul Colquhoun, ULC.    http://andor.dropbear.id.au/~paulcol
-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Duncan]

"Bob Young" <BYoung@nucoretech.com> posted
FAEEIJPAOFEMBBLKPMJEAEMAHKAA.BYoung@NuCORETech.com, excerpted below, on 
Fri, 29 Sep 2006 15:42:50 -0700:

> Would you go to war, or be willing to die for the "freedom" that open
> source provides? If not, then equating it with the freedoms that real mean
> and women have fought and died for is to marginalize the importance the
> word is meant to convey.

As I said elsewhere, while I can't honestly say I'm to that point /yet/, I
/can/ honestly say that I believe I /should/ be to that point.  Further,
I realize and have accepted the possibility of the loss of physical
freedoms to ensure mental freedoms.  (IOW, it's possible and has already
happened for some, that freedom software and/or a refusal to submit to
the ban on reverse engineering in the EULA with most unfreedom (aka
slavery) software and in some laws, results in imprisonment.  I recognize
and accept that as a risk of positively asserting software freedoms.)

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

-- 
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[gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware)

[Duncan]

"Richard Fish" <bigfish@asmallpond.org> posted
7573e9640609291533l391a162bg2cc304de1785b2c6@mail.gmail.com, excerpted
below, on  Fri, 29 Sep 2006 15:33:13 -0700:

> However, I also recognize that Duncan has much stronger opinions on the
> subject than I do, so I understand why he uses the terms that he does. 
> When he uses the terms, I have no misunderstanding of what he means, even
> if I don't agree.  So I consider them perfectly accurate representations
> of his opinions.

Agree to disagree, while continuing to appreciate the validity of the
viewpoint of others.  I like it. =8^)

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

-- 
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RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware)

[Bob Young]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: richard.j.fish@gmail.com [mailto:richard.j.fish@gmail.com]On
> Behalf Of Richard Fish
> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 3:18 PM
> To: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift
> -slaveryware)
>
>
> On 9/29/06, Bob Young <BYoung@nucoretech.com> wrote:
> > > But they *do* accurately reflect the relationship between vendors and
> > > users from Duncan's viewpoint.  Your viewpoint is obviously different,
> > > but doesn't mean yours is the only "true" one.
> >
> > Oh please, spare me the relative truth crap. You can argue all
> you want that
> > it's true from Duncan's perspective because that's the way it *feels* to
> > him. In the end that's just feel good rationalization and total
> bullshit.
>
> Ok, so now you are saying that Duncan's opinion is wrong.  You don't
> respect Duncan's opinion, but you expect us to respect yours?  I call
> hypocrite.

Nice strawman, I've never said, or implied that I didn't respect Duncan's
opinion. In fact just the opposite, I've specifically told him that I
believe he has thought a lot about this, and that I believe he is sincere.
Thinking that someone is wrong, or believing that they are using unjustified
terms to express their opinion is not disrespect.

> > conveniently avoids the confrontational point, namely that
> there isn't any
> > hard concrete logic and reason to support or justify the usage
> of words such
> > as slaveryware and freedomware.
>
> Hard concrete logic: *everybody* has the right to modify and
> distribute open source software.  How is that *not* freedom?

As far as *modification* goes I've already admitted that technically you're
correct that *is* a freedom, however to equate it with the freedoms that
people have given their life to protect is to do a great disservice to the
word freedom.

As to distribution, I can show you literally thousands of examples of
freeware and shareware that I can distribute legally, and they don't have
source code available, so that's not an advantage of OSS.

> Oh, wait, I can hear you now: "but that is no different than with
> closed source".  You already know the counter argument: with closed
> source, the only people who can provide the patch are those who own
> the source.

The point is that even when someone has the "freedom" to have someone else
fix a bug in an OSS app, %99.999 of the time, people wait until it's done by
the original developer/maintainer. Since that's the case, %99.999 of the
time there is no difference between the way bugs are handled under OSS and
the way they are handled under CSS. Given that, are CSS users really
"enslaved"...No they are not.

When was the last time that you personally submitted a *patch* for some open
source app/utility/driver?

> With open source, anybody can produce and send a patch to
> the user.

No, No, NO! *anybody* can't! and that's the point. You're scenario is nice
in theory, but it doesn't actually work in the real world. I'm a software
engineer, and I have enough trouble debugging and fixing code that I'm
familiar with and have written my self. In the past, I use to write graphics
drivers for a living, how successful and efficient do you think I would be
at troubleshooting a problem with a database application? Answer: I would
totally suck at it.

Another example: It would take me a very long time to fix a problem with a
SCSI driver, compared to someone who works on SCSI drivers regularly. Would
*you* want to pay for the many extra hours of troubleshooting due to my
inexperience with <fill in blank> type of code?

All code is not the same, and software engineers are not all
interchangeable. That's one reason why this "users are *free* to have anyone
modify/fix an open source app/utility/driver" is ssuch total crap.

--
Regards
Bob Young


-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Bob Young]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: richard.j.fish@gmail.com [mailto:richard.j.fish@gmail.com]On
> Behalf Of Richard Fish
> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 4:20 PM
> To: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -
> slaveryware)
>
>
> On 9/29/06, Bob Young <BYoung@nucoretech.com> wrote:
> > Would you go to war, or be willing to die for the "freedom" that open
source
> > provides? If not, then equating it with the freedoms that real mean and
> > women have fought and died for is to marginalize the importance the word
is
> > meant to convey.
>
> No, but that is *my* opinion.  However Duncan has stated previously
> that, while he probably wouldn't be willing to die to defend his
> freedom regarding open source software, that he _should_ be willing to
> do so.

That is a very crucial difference, and deserves not to be glossed over.
*Should* and *is* are two very different things. Men and women *have*
actually died to protect our freedom, to equate something that isn't
actually worth that ultimate price with the word, frankly, cheapens the
word.

>So by your standard, *his* use of those terms is really not
> all that far fetched.

See above.


> I do agree that the terms are very strong..much stronger than my
> feelings on the subject, which is why I do not use them.  But you
> really should read what Duncan has said previously on this [1].  His
> feelings are very strong on the subject...strong enough to justify his
> use of these terms IMO.

Feelings don't change the meanings of words, and meanings are not dependent
upon the feelings/perspective of the person using them.

--
Regards
Bob Young


-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware)

[Duncan]

"Bob Young" <BYoung@nucoretech.com> posted
FAEEIJPAOFEMBBLKPMJECEMEHKAA.BYoung@NuCORETech.com, excerpted below, on 
Fri, 29 Sep 2006 17:01:19 -0700:

> When was the last time that you personally submitted a *patch* for some
> open source app/utility/driver?

Matter of fact, altho I don't claim to do C or C++, I do do a bit of
scripting, and have submitted several ebuild and initscripts patches this
year. =8^)

Of course, I'm not "most people" nor would I /want/ to be, but certainly,
understanding scripting isn't /too/ hard, and most Gentoo users in any
case should be able to do it and thus post patches at that level with
little difficulty.  Again tho, "most Gentoo users" do tend to still be a
cut above "most Linux users", technical literacy wise.  Still, bash
scripting is something anyone that can decently manage his own system
should be able to do if they choose to, and the fact that nearly all Linux
systems use shell scripting for their init sequence demonstrably leaves
them freer, more open to users, than the comparatively opaque boot process
of many closed source systems out there.  (I know, this is one thing I
immediately appreciated about Linux when switching from MS, and taking
apart and reassembling the Mandrake initscripts is how I actually learned
my bash scripting.)

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

-- 
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Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1874 bytes --]

On Friday 29 September 2006 15:10, "Bob Young" <BYoung@nucoretech.com> 
wrote about 'RE: [gentoo-amd64]  Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - 
slaveryware)':
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: felix@crowfix.com [mailto:felix@crowfix.com]
> > With Linux, even
> > if I can't do it, there are hundreds of thousands of people who could,
> > and it would only take a few bucks or a good friend to do it.  It is
> > not only possible, easily, but also there is a lot of choice on how to
> > do it.
> From the end users perspective s/he is still dependent on
> someone else to make the changes. I wouldn't say having a choice of who
> to be dependent upon actually qualifies as "freedom."

If system X has all the choices available under system Y and system Y lacks 
at least one choice that is in system X.  System X is definitely more 
free, and that choice is most definitely a freedom.

But different freedoms have different values to different people; they also 
aren't the only thing that has value to many people.

I think Duncan has adequately justified his use the the terms "slaveryware" 
and "freedomware", and neither your rationed discourse, nor your 
(sometimes unfounded) assertions (that seem to be increasing in frequency) 
have convinced me otherwise.

I think I'm just going to have to disagree with you on this point, but feel 
free continue your attempt to convince me otherwise, either on- or 
off-list.  I feel that you understand the freedoms provided by free 
software at or beyond my ability to explain them so, I leave you to judge 
those freedoms and Duncan's speech as you will, for now.

-- 
"If there's one thing we've established over the years,
it's that the vast majority of our users don't have the slightest
clue what's best for them in terms of package stability."
-- Gentoo Developer Ciaran McCreesh

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[gentoo-amd64] Re: mplayer vs mplayer-bin = sound vs picture

[Duncan]

Paul Colquhoun <paulcol@andor.dropbear.id.au> posted
200609300946.00116.paulcol@andor.dropbear.id.au, excerpted below, on  Sat,
30 Sep 2006 09:46:00 +1000:

> When I use kmplayer to watch a video (wmv format, in this case) it appears
> I have a choice. If I configure kmplayer to use mplayer, I get sound but
> no picture, conversely, if I configure kmplayer to use mplayer-bin (with
> no other config changes) I get a picture, but no sound.

FWIW, I won't use mplayer-bin, because I have no need to since I don't use
the slaveryware codecs that would be the only reason to use it over the
64-bit version.  That said...

Even back when I didn't feel as strongly about slaveryware and used
binary-only codecs, I found mplayer a constant struggle to get and keep
everything working at once.  I /much/ prefer xine, as it often "just
works" where I'd otherwise still be fighting with mplayer trying to get
the right combination of video and audio codecs to get it to play the
same thing equally well. As it happens, kmplayer can also be merged with
USE=xine, and then you'll get that option for backend player as well as
mplayer.  (A third option is gstreamer, but I've had even less luck with
it than mplayer.)

That said, I suspect your problem is that the file you are trying to play
requires a (formerly?) binary-only video codec, so xine (as currently
unmasked) won't show video either.  Recent posts say the still masked
ffmpeg and xine built on top of it can play formerly binary-codec-only
wmv-9 videos.  I haven't personally tried the unmasking yet so can't
vouch for that myself, but I plan to, and others say it works.

As for mplayer config, both the -bin and 64-bit versions, I'll leave that
for someone else to deal with because as I said I've had little luck with
it.  I can venture a guess, however, that it's /possible/ to get sound
with mplayer-bin, particularly if you have sound with mplayer (64-bit), if
you just get the config right -- which is as I said the hard part with
mplayer, xine is /far/ easier.

Finally, if you are a regular KDE user as I am, I'll pass on a tip passed
to me (@ 'em, thanks, BTW).  kaffeine integrates rather better into
KDE, and is all around a rather more polished player than kmplayer, with a
few features kmplayer is missing (like slowmo and double-speed playback
without sound, variable speed playback with sound so you can watch a 30
minute video in 25 minutes if desired, features like that).  It can make
use of the same backends, at least mplayer and xine, don't know about
gstreamer.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware)

[Bob Young]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org]On Behalf Of Duncan
> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 5:21 PM
> To: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware)
> 
> 
> "Bob Young" <BYoung@nucoretech.com> posted
> FAEEIJPAOFEMBBLKPMJECEMEHKAA.BYoung@NuCORETech.com, excerpted below, on 
> Fri, 29 Sep 2006 17:01:19 -0700:
> 
> > When was the last time that you personally submitted a *patch* for some
> > open source app/utility/driver?
> 
> Matter of fact, altho I don't claim to do C or C++, I do do a bit of
> scripting, and have submitted several ebuild and initscripts patches this
> year. =8^)

Good for you, I honestly mean that, that's a very good thing.

> Of course, I'm not "most people" nor would I /want/ to be, but certainly,
> understanding scripting isn't /too/ hard, and most Gentoo users in any
> case should be able to do it and thus post patches at that level with
> little difficulty.  Again though, "most Gentoo users" do tend to still be a
> cut above "most Linux users", technical literacy wise.  Still, bash
> scripting is something anyone that can decently manage his own system
> should be able to do if they choose to, and the fact that nearly all Linux
> systems use shell scripting for their init sequence demonstrably leaves
> them freer, more open to users, than the comparatively opaque boot process
> of many closed source systems out there.  (I know, this is one thing I
> immediately appreciated about Linux when switching from MS, and taking
> apart and reassembling the Mandrake initscripts is how I actually learned
> my bash scripting.)

Since adopting Linux as my secondary OS, I've learned a lot of bash scripting, and I've chosen to dig pretty deep in to perl, so that I could create an app for extracting and archiving packets from a TCP/IP stream that meet a specified criteria. 

That being said, way less than 5 percent of the population has even the slightest bit of interest in learning the things that you and I have chosen to dig in to, it's just not their thing. They are more interested in gymnastics, or skiing, or scuba diving, or directing movies, or counseling drug abusers, or feeding the hungry, or any one of thousands of other things. They are *never* *ever* going to be interested in learning bash programming, no matter how easy or "fun" you tell them it is, and that's perfectly okay, and that's as it should be. Those people are no less "free" for using CSS, and the fact is, that "those people" are the vast majority of the population.

-- 
Regards
Bob Young






-- 
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RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Bob Young]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. [mailto:bss03@volumehost.net]
> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 5:31 PM
> To: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -
> slaveryware)
>
>
> I think Duncan has adequately justified his use the terms
> "slaveryware"
> and "freedomware", and neither your rationed discourse, nor your
> (sometimes unfounded) assertions (that seem to be increasing in
> frequency)
> have convinced me otherwise.

I claim no monopoly on truth, if you believe one or more of my claims is
insufficiently supported by my arguments please note it, and explain your
reasons for a contrary view, I'll either explain my self better, or admit
that I was wrong.

> I think I'm just going to have to disagree with you on this
> point, but feel  free continue your attempt to convince me otherwise,
either on- or
> off-list.  I feel that you understand the freedoms provided by free
> software at or beyond my ability to explain them so, I leave you to judge
> those freedoms and Duncan's speech as you will, for now.


Thank you, I consider that a more enlightened response than I've received
from some posters. The truth is that I've enjoyed this debate, and though
the course of explaining my position, have actually looked at some of the
facets of the argument I'd not considered before.

--
Regards
Bob Young


-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Duncan]

"Bob Young" <BYoung@nucoretech.com> posted
FAEEIJPAOFEMBBLKPMJEIEMEHKAA.BYoung@NuCORETech.com, excerpted below, on 
Fri, 29 Sep 2006 17:09:23 -0700:

[richard j. fish wrote]
>> No, but that is *my* opinion.  However Duncan has stated previously
>> that, while he probably wouldn't be willing to die to defend his freedom
>> regarding open source software, that he _should_ be willing to do so.
> 
> That is a very crucial difference, and deserves not to be glossed over.
> *Should* and *is* are two very different things. Men and women *have*
> actually died to protect our freedom, to equate something that isn't
> actually worth that ultimate price with the word, frankly, cheapens the
> word.

Indeed, but the fault there would be with my personal resolve.  There are
many folks who aren't willing to give their lives for a freedom yet
realize and are grateful that others are so willing, and would still
consider them freedoms, even if they aren't willing to personally give
their lives for them.  Many/most of these would also agree that they
/should/ be willing to give their life for those freedoms, whether they
/actually/ are or not.  Thus, whether people are actually willing to do it
vs whether they think they /should/ be willing to do it has little bearing
on whether it can rightly be called a freedom or not.  Certainly, I'd
argue that if someone's willing to give up physical freedoms, regardless
of whether they are willing to give their life, trading freedom for
freedom, as it were, that's far more than is the case with much of what we
already call freedom on a more ordinary scale.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

-- 
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[gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Duncan]

"Bob Young" <BYoung@nucoretech.com> posted
FAEEIJPAOFEMBBLKPMJEKEMIHKAA.BYoung@NuCORETech.com, excerpted below, on 
Fri, 29 Sep 2006 18:06:40 -0700:

> Thank you, I consider that a more enlightened response than I've received
> from some posters. The truth is that I've enjoyed this debate, and though
> the course of explaining my position, have actually looked at some of the
> facets of the argument I'd not considered before.

See, that's the true benefit of a debate even if it doesn't change the
ultimate position of any direct participant.  Unfortunately, few seem to
be able to grasp the concept, and seem to think there's no benefit if
there's not a winner or a loser.

For me (and it appears for you as well), a greater understanding of and
respect for another's position, regardless of whether one agrees or not, is
an end in itself.

Thanks for making that point, and yes, the same goes for me. =8^)

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

-- 
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Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware)

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 726 bytes --]

On Friday 29 September 2006 19:01, "Bob Young" <BYoung@nucoretech.com> 
wrote about 'RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread 
drift -slaveryware)':
> No, No, NO! *anybody* can't!

Yes, anybody can.  However, most people decide that the effort required for 
them to make the change is greater than the effort required to have 
someone else make the change for them.

Writing and maintaining software is not something that you are born into;  
anyone (with enough effort) can do it.

-- 
"If there's one thing we've established over the years,
it's that the vast majority of our users don't have the slightest
clue what's best for them in terms of package stability."
-- Gentoo Developer Ciaran McCreesh

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 189 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware)

[Richard Freeman]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3373 bytes --]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Bob Young wrote:
> 
> That being said, way less than 5 percent of the population has even 
> the slightest bit of interest in learning the things that you and I 
> have chosen to dig in to...Those people are no less "free" for using
> CSS, and the fact is, that "those people" are the vast majority of
> the population.
> 
> 

Actually, I'd tend to differ on this point.  Many people on this list
either currently do or eventually will work in a non-IT-oriented
industry.  Such industries tend to not hire many programmers, and those
that they do hire tend to coordinate outsourced effort, and function
mainly as integrators of pre-packaged functionality.  Even so, most of
these industries will require their vendors to escrow their source code
and will generally prefer FOSS when all other things are equal (which
unfortunately is not always the case).  Why?  They'll NEVER modify the
source code themselves, so why should they care?  Simple - one day if
their vendor doesn't meet their needs they can give that source code to
somebody else to maintain - possibly another vendor who can use the
source to smooth the migration process to their platform.

Would you buy a car that used 387/863" bolts and parts of other
non-standard dimensions?  You might never fix your own car, but you will
recognize that if you buy something that follows a standard it will be
cheaper for you to pay others to fix it.  A car which uses parts which
have been around for 10 years will be VERY cheap to maintain compared to
one that requires import parts from a single supplier.

Open-source software has a lot of benefits even for non-programmers.
Buy a proprietary DVR and you can almost guarantee that you won't be
able to migrate your programming when you upgrade models in a few years,
and you probably won't be able to upgrade it.  Buy a pre-packaged DVR
that uses FOSS and most likely there WILL be an upgrade and migration
path - it might cost you to have it taken care of for you, but with the
proprietary system it will cost you a LOT more.

So, FOSS has a lot of potential to benefit ordinary computer users.  Not
just those who tinker with their PCs.

Does that mean that it ALWAYS makes sense to use an FOSS package, when a
proprietary package better meets your requirements?  Of course not!
But, I always put FOSS on MY list of requirements, and if I have to
trade-off one requirement for another I do so as-needed.  But, I've
gotten burned by proprietary software many times, so I'm inclined to
lean towards FOSS unless it really doesn't meet some fundamental need.
You have to figure in the total cost of ownership - which includes
future expansion and migration to the next platform.  Sure, it is easier
to store my email in Outlook than in a .maildir served up by IMAP - but
when the next fancy email client comes along the latter requires zero
effort to migrate.

Just my two cents - if you feel some requirement is lacking in FOSS
proprietary software might be right for you.  But factor in all the
costs - it might not be as good a choice as it appears on the surface.
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Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Bob Young]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org]On Behalf Of Duncan
> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 6:33 PM
> To: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)
> 
> 
> For me (and it appears for you as well), a greater understanding of and
> respect for another's position, regardless of whether one agrees 
> or not, is an end in itself.
> 
> Thanks for making that point, and yes, the same goes for me. =8^)
> 

Now that I agree with, well said and that seems like a good place to leave the debate.

-- 
Respect.
Bob Young 



-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware)

[Bob Young]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. [mailto:bss03@volumehost.net]
> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 7:09 PM
> To: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift
> -slaveryware)
>
>
> On Friday 29 September 2006 19:01, "Bob Young" <BYoung@nucoretech.com>
> wrote about 'RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread
> drift -slaveryware)':

> > No, No, NO! *anybody* can't!
>
> Yes, anybody can.  However, most people decide that the effort
> required for them to make the change is greater than the effort required
to have
> someone else make the change for them.

Geez, google for the word pedantic.

--
Bob Young


-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware)

[Bob Young]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard Freeman [mailto:rich@gw.thefreemanclan.net]
> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 7:10 PM
> To: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift
> -slaveryware)
> 
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Bob Young wrote:
> > 
> > That being said, way less than 5 percent of the population has even 
> > the slightest bit of interest in learning the things that you and I 
> > have chosen to dig in to...Those people are no less "free" for using
> > CSS, and the fact is, that "those people" are the vast majority of
> > the population.
> > 
> > 
> Open-source software has a lot of benefits even for non-programmers.
> Buy a proprietary DVR and you can almost guarantee that you won't be
> able to migrate your programming when you upgrade models in a few years,
> and you probably won't be able to upgrade it.  Buy a pre-packaged DVR
> that uses FOSS and most likely there WILL be an upgrade and migration
> path - it might cost you to have it taken care of for you, but with the
> proprietary system it will cost you a LOT more.

Sorry, I use Outlook to read this list at work, and initially when I see posts to the list from you, it says that the message has an invalid digital signature, that message was displayed for this message as well, normally I just ignore and automatically delete such messages. That invalid digital signature message is not displayed for most other posters, so I can only assume that it is something different about your posts. I have a bit of trouble taking somone seriously who advocates open standards, yet chooses to personally use a digital signature that displays as invalid on one of the most widely used email clients in the world, that seems a bit inconsistant to me.

-- 
Regards
Bob Young




-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware)

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 903 bytes --]

On Friday 29 September 2006 21:33, "Bob Young" <BYoung@nucoretech.com> 
wrote about 'RE: [gentoo-amd64]  Re: How To Play WMV (thread 
drift -slaveryware)':
> Sorry, I use Outlook to read this list at work, and initially when I see
> posts to the list from you, it says that the message has an invalid
> digital signature

I got a couple of messages about the message. One said there was not enough 
information to check the signature.  The other said the signature was 
valid, but the key was untrusted.  Apparently his mailer (Thunderbird + 
Enigmail) seems to be singing his messages twice.

Either that, or I could just have my kmail misconfigured for S/MIME.

-- 
"If there's one thing we've established over the years,
it's that the vast majority of our users don't have the slightest
clue what's best for them in terms of package stability."
-- Gentoo Developer Ciaran McCreesh

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[gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware)

[Duncan]

"Boyd Stephen Smith Jr." <bss03@volumehost.net> posted
200609300101.09472.bss03@volumehost.net, excerpted below, on  Sat, 30 Sep
2006 01:01:05 -0500:

> I got a couple of messages about the message. One said there was not
> enough information to check the signature.  The other said the signature
> was valid, but the key was untrusted.  Apparently his mailer (Thunderbird
> + Enigmail) seems to be singing his messages twice.

He's signing using two different formats, apparently, smime and pgp/gpg. 
I'm reading this group in pan as a news message, so don't verify either
one, but the pgp one shows up attached to the message while the smime one
shows up separately.  The problem is likely to be either that the smime
signature includes the pgp sig in the signed content and the client
separates it out so the sig fails to match, or the other way, that the
smime sig is on the body without the gpg sig but the client is trying to
include it so again it's failing.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware)

[Duncan]

Richard Freeman <rich@thefreemanclan.net> posted
451DD1EF.3040309@thefreemanclan.net, excerpted below, on  Fri, 29 Sep 2006
22:09:51 -0400:

> Open-source software has a lot of benefits even for non-programmers. Buy a
> proprietary DVR and you can almost guarantee that you won't be able to
> migrate your programming when you upgrade models in a few years, and you
> probably won't be able to upgrade it.  Buy a pre-packaged DVR that uses
> FOSS and most likely there WILL be an upgrade and migration path - it
> might cost you to have it taken care of for you, but with the proprietary
> system it will cost you a LOT more.

Very good point indeed.  I don't have a DVR as I dropped TV some years ago
(I don't like being treated like a programable zombie by the ads, neither
do I much care for programming obviously targeted at the folks most likely
to be effectively programmed to buy what they obviously don't need by
repeating an ad a few times), but the same thing applies to both routers
and mp3 players.  I've been spending some time recently researching both,
for my next upgrades.  My next router will likely be a Linksys WRT
compatible router (if it's not, it'll be a full computer running a
conventional x86 or x86_64/amd64 based Linux kernel), bought with the
intent of upgrading it to one of the several open source firmware
alternatives available. Likewise, my next mp3 player, which will be my
first hard drive based unit, will be purchased with the intent of
upgrading it to rockbox or a similar alternative, as well as upgrading the
hard drive to a 120 gig or so model.

I'm not a programmer, but the ability to upgrade these devices and choose
from multiple sources for firmware is pretty valuable to me -- and
evidently to a lot of other folks, programmer and non-programmer alike, as
well.  Just because these folks can't do it themselves matters little, as
long as they can replace the firmware, and the hardware is open enough
(intentionally or not) so those that /can/ program, can do their thing and
create alternative firmware for the rest of us to use.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

-- 
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Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware)

[Richard Fish]

On 9/29/06, Bob Young <BYoung@nucoretech.com> wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: richard.j.fish@gmail.com [mailto:richard.j.fish@gmail.com]On
> > On 9/29/06, Bob Young <BYoung@nucoretech.com> wrote:
> > > it's true from Duncan's perspective because that's the way it *feels* to
> > > him. In the end that's just feel good rationalization and total
> > bullshit.
> >
> > Ok, so now you are saying that Duncan's opinion is wrong.  You don't
> > respect Duncan's opinion, but you expect us to respect yours?  I call
> > hypocrite.
>
> Nice strawman, I've never said, or implied that I didn't respect Duncan's
> opinion. In fact just the opposite, I've specifically told him that I
> believe he has thought a lot about this, and that I believe he is sincere.

Then I apologize.  I gathered that "total bullshit" was in reference
to Duncan's beliefs.

> When was the last time that you personally submitted a *patch* for some open
> source app/utility/driver?

Not really relevant to this discussion, but:

http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.alsa.devel/39777
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.alsa.devel/40207

> Another example: It would take me a very long time to fix a problem with a
> SCSI driver, compared to someone who works on SCSI drivers regularly. Would
> *you* want to pay for the many extra hours of troubleshooting due to my
> inexperience with <fill in blank> type of code?

Well the alsa patches above did take me dozens of hours to figure out.
 Much of that was figuring out how the alsa driver worked, studying
the Intel HDA specification, and fiddling with own hardware.  So yes,
it can take an amazing amount of time.

The point is, anybody _can_ do it, if they are willing to invest the
time and effort into it.  It is very very much like learning a foreign
language.  I don't speak German...so I am totally dependant upon a
translator if I want to communicate with someone who speaks only
German.  But should I not be able to find a translator willing to work
for what I am willing to pay, I always have the option of learning to
speak German myself.

> All code is not the same, and software engineers are not all
> interchangeable.

Heh, try telling that to management at ${mycompany}! ;-P

-Richard
-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware)

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1080 bytes --]

On Saturday 30 September 2006 01:39, "Duncan" <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> wrote 
about '[gentoo-amd64]  Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware)':
> "Boyd Stephen Smith Jr." <bss03@volumehost.net> posted
> 200609300101.09472.bss03@volumehost.net, excerpted below, on  Sat, 30
> Sep
> 2006 01:01:05 -0500:
> > Apparently his mailer
> > (Thunderbird + Enigmail) seems to be singing his messages twice.
> He's signing using two different formats, apparently, smime and pgp/gpg.

Yeah, they should probably only use one technique to sign their messages.  
inline PGP/GPG is deprecated, IIRC, because it doesn't handle attachments 
well (or at all?).  S/MIME is preferred now but, inline PGP/GPG, being a 
bit older, has better support.  I know kmail still has some ease-of-use 
issues with S/MIME, but I don't think it affects correctness.

-- 
"If there's one thing we've established over the years,
it's that the vast majority of our users don't have the slightest
clue what's best for them in terms of package stability."
-- Gentoo Developer Ciaran McCreesh

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Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware)

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2584 bytes --]

On Saturday 30 September 2006 01:55, "Duncan" <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> wrote 
about '[gentoo-amd64]  Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware)':
> I've been spending some time recently
> researching [routers and mp3 players] both, for my next upgrades.
> My next router will likely be a 
> Linksys WRT compatible router

I've had good luck running OpenWRT on the older models (v1.1 and v2).  The 
newer non-L(inux) models [which can have Linux installed on them by the 
user, after killing VxWorks] have fewer resources, so DD-WRT might be more 
appropriate, but I don't have any experience with that.  The newer L(inux) 
models come at a premium and may not be carried everywhere, but OpenWRT is 
a fine choice for them.

If the load on the LAN will be large, be aware that the WRT hw does have 
some issues under heavy load, particularly when the number of TCP 
connections being created is high which happens with some P2P clients.

> (if it's not, it'll be a full computer 
> running a conventional x86 or x86_64/amd64 based Linux kernel), bought
> with the intent of upgrading it to one of the several open source
> firmware alternatives available.

If you need GigE speeds for the LAN, be sure to find a main board with good 
buses.  No PC NICs that I know of support HW level routing at any layer, 
so every packet that is routed has to cross your bus twice, once going to 
memory and once going back to that (or another) NIC.  The standard PCI bus 
(not PCI-X or PCI-e) can only support 4 Gbps in the best of conditions, 
which means only about 2 GigE clients.

> Likewise, my next mp3 player, which 
> will be my first hard drive based unit, will be purchased with the
> intent of upgrading it to rockbox or a similar alternative, as well as
> upgrading the hard drive to a 120 gig or so model.

While the HD isn't upgradable, the iRiver H10 line will run Rockbox.  IIRC, 
the older H300 models do as well.  I've be very happy with my iFP-799, 
although I do use a hacked firmware, which improves the range of Vorbis 
bitrates the player supports.  (The native vorbis support of the iFP line 
was the main reason I purchased from iRiver.)  IIRC, Rockbox is also being 
ported to the iFP line, but that port is not complete.  Once I feel 
installing RockBox is safe, I'll probably upgrade my iFP to it.

-- 
"If there's one thing we've established over the years,
it's that the vast majority of our users don't have the slightest
clue what's best for them in terms of package stability."
-- Gentoo Developer Ciaran McCreesh

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RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Andrei Slavoiu]

--- Bob Young <BYoung@nucoretech.com> wrote:
> That's a very shallow definition of the "essence of
> freedom," from the
> perspective of most end users, your scenario doesn't
> really change anything.
> From the end users perspective s/he is still
> dependent on someone else to
> make the changes. I wouldn't say having a choice of
> who to be dependent upon
> actually qualifies as "freedom."
Nobody needs to depend on anybody for their coding!
Programmers are not a secret society that hold their
ways secret! If you don't find anybody to do it for
you, or if you don't want to pay for that, then you
can buy a copy of "Programming for Dummies" or "Teach
yourself C++ in 10 minutes" (note that if any of this
books really exist, it is a simple coincidence).
So everybody HAS the freedom. If somebody is too lazy
to learn how to use it, it's their own fault.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Steev Klimaszewski]

Andrei Slavoiu wrote:
> --- Bob Young <BYoung@nucoretech.com> wrote:
>> That's a very shallow definition of the "essence of
>> freedom," from the
>> perspective of most end users, your scenario doesn't
>> really change anything.
>> From the end users perspective s/he is still
>> dependent on someone else to
>> make the changes. I wouldn't say having a choice of
>> who to be dependent upon
>> actually qualifies as "freedom."
> Nobody needs to depend on anybody for their coding!
> Programmers are not a secret society that hold their
> ways secret! If you don't find anybody to do it for
> you, or if you don't want to pay for that, then you
> can buy a copy of "Programming for Dummies" or "Teach
> yourself C++ in 10 minutes" (note that if any of this
> books really exist, it is a simple coincidence).
> So everybody HAS the freedom. If somebody is too lazy
> to learn how to use it, it's their own fault.
> 

You absolutely do have to depend on someone else for their coding -
unless you fork it, or upstream actually accepts your patch.  If you
fork it then there is a whole new ball of wax, and I am sorry but
"Programming for Dummies" and "Teach yourself C++ in 10 minutes" (just
to steal your examples) will not teach you the coding skills that you
actually need for the opensource world - as they typically are written
for.... Windows... yay... but - the only issue I have with Windows being
called slaveryware or whatever, is that means that you have absolutely
no choice whatsoever in using it - and while that may be the case where
some people work (I am lucky in that where I work they are extremely
opensource friendly, and I only have 1 machine out of 7 that actually
requires Windows be on it - gah, I keep going way off my path... ok,
lets try this again...)

Slaveryware by a very literal term, means you are being forced to use
it, and the fact that you have a choice, you CAN use Free/Open Souce
software, negates that it actually is slaveryware because no one forces
you to use it, it is personal choice.  I keep a Windows machine around
at home, but in no way do I feel like I have to have it.  It is simply
there, yes, I can scratch my own itches, and by virtue of becoming a
Gentoo dev, I have decided to help others scratch their itches too, but
that is what open source is all about.  Scratching an itch, and if you
don't have the ability to scratch your own, you ARE dependent on others
to do the scratching for you, UNTIL you have the ability to do it on
your own.  Either way, you ARE shifting who you are dependent on for the
relief from the itch.
-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Martin Bergstrand]

Hey guys, this is an interesting debate, but could we please do it someplace 
else? On the forums for example, that way the subscribers of this list don't 
have to wake up to 50+ new off-topic messages from this list.
-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Bob Young]

Andrei Slavoiu wrote:
> --- Bob Young <BYoung@nucoretech.com> wrote:
>   
>> That's a very shallow definition of the "essence of
>> freedom," from the
>> perspective of most end users, your scenario doesn't
>> really change anything.
>> From the end users perspective s/he is still
>> dependent on someone else to
>> make the changes. I wouldn't say having a choice of
>> who to be dependent upon
>> actually qualifies as "freedom."
>>     
> Nobody needs to depend on anybody for their coding!
> Programmers are not a secret society that hold their
> ways secret! If you don't find anybody to do it for
> you, or if you don't want to pay for that, then you
> can buy a copy of "Programming for Dummies" or "Teach
> yourself C++ in 10 minutes" (note that if any of this
> books really exist, it is a simple coincidence).
> So everybody HAS the freedom. If somebody is too lazy
> to learn how to use it, it's their own fault.
>   
You're absolutely correct, everybody and anybody in the entire world 
*may* if they want to, modify an OSS app/utility/driver, I've stipulated 
that over and over again.

What I'm pointing out is, the vast majority of people who have this 
choice (the people using OSS), don't exercise it in any way. They have 
absolutely no interest in doing so, and they are never ever going to be 
interested in doing so, and that is as it should be. I'm not suggesting 
that OSS should be abolished, or anything like that, I'm just saying 
that in comparison to CSS this supposed "freedom" that OSS provides, 
isn't really all that valuable from the perspective of most end users. I 
will grant that it is a more important issue for people who can 
read/write code or have interest in doing so, but that's a pretty small 
percentage of the population.

-- 
Regards
Bob Young
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Ian McCulloch]

On Sat, 30 Sep 2006, Martin Bergstrand wrote:

> Hey guys, this is an interesting debate, but could we please do it someplace 
> else? On the forums for example, that way the subscribers of this list don't 
> have to wake up to 50+ new off-topic messages from this list.

I agree completely - it would be interesting to see the subscriber stats 
for this list; I wouldn't be surprised if it has dropped substantially in 
the last couple of days.  Certainly if this continues for any longer it 
WILL, me included.  It isn't that its an uninteresting topic, but it is 
COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC!

Ian McCulloch
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware)

[Bob Young]

Richard Fish wrote:
> On 9/29/06, Bob Young <BYoung@nucoretech.com> wrote:
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: richard.j.fish@gmail.com [mailto:richard.j.fish@gmail.com]On
>> > On 9/29/06, Bob Young <BYoung@nucoretech.com> wrote:
>> > > it's true from Duncan's perspective because that's the way it 
>> *feels* to
>> > > him. In the end that's just feel good rationalization and total
>> > bullshit.
>> >
>> > Ok, so now you are saying that Duncan's opinion is wrong.  You don't
>> > respect Duncan's opinion, but you expect us to respect yours?  I call
>> > hypocrite.
>>
>> Nice strawman, I've never said, or implied that I didn't respect 
>> Duncan's
>> opinion. In fact just the opposite, I've specifically told him that I
>> believe he has thought a lot about this, and that I believe he is 
>> sincere.
>
> Then I apologize.  I gathered that "total bullshit" was in reference
> to Duncan's beliefs.
>
No, I've always thought Duncan was sincere, and that he had given this a 
great deal of thought.. The total bullshit remark was my disdain for the 
practice (by some people) of  advocating that no one should necessarily 
have to support their opinions and the terms they use to express them 
with real logic and evidence, in effect saying that anything goes, and 
it's all okay as long as it's "what you feel," I think that's 
intellectually bankrupt.

>> When was the last time that you personally submitted a *patch* for 
>> some open
>> source app/utility/driver?
>
> Not really relevant to this discussion, but:
>
> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.alsa.devel/39777
> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.alsa.devel/40207
>
>> Another example: It would take me a very long time to fix a problem 
>> with a
>> SCSI driver, compared to someone who works on SCSI drivers regularly. 
>> Would
>> *you* want to pay for the many extra hours of troubleshooting due to my
>> inexperience with <fill in blank> type of code?
>
> Well the alsa patches above did take me dozens of hours to figure out.
> Much of that was figuring out how the alsa driver worked, studying
> the Intel HDA specification, and fiddling with own hardware.  So yes,
> it can take an amazing amount of time.
>
> The point is, anybody _can_ do it, if they are willing to invest the
> time and effort into it.  It is very very much like learning a foreign
> language.  I don't speak German...so I am totally dependant upon a
> translator if I want to communicate with someone who speaks only
> German.  But should I not be able to find a translator willing to work
> for what I am willing to pay, I always have the option of learning to
> speak German myself.
I suppose it comes down how one values being technically correct versus 
what actually happens in the real world. Personally I tend to be more 
practical, but certainly the world needs people who stick to the exact 
letter of the law, as we do of course need some accountants and lawyers.

That being said, I can't resist making the tangential and totally off 
topic comment that I think America  in general, has gone waaaaay too far 
toward the *exact letter of the law* side. Zero tolerance, mandatory 
sentences,  and just the general "climate" of the society has removed so 
much of the decision making and discretion that was available in the 
past. It has been removed at all levels of government, everybody from 
grade school principles, to circuit court judges, have almost no choice 
in how to handle the situations and cases that come before them.. Thus 
we are in a society where: a student is suspended for giving another 
student aspirin, a 19 yr old is a registered sex offender for having 
consensual sex with his 16yr old girlfriend, and you can be sent to 
prison for life for stealing a slice of pizza.. I hope the pendulum 
starts to swing the other way, and at least some of this madness gets 
reversed, but to be honest, I'm not very optimistic.

>
>> All code is not the same, and software engineers are not all
>> interchangeable.
>
> Heh, try telling that to management at ${mycompany}! ;-P
>
Are you kidding, it has taken me years to explain just some of it to my 
wife [:-)

-- 
Regards
Bob Young
-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Bob Young]

Ian McCulloch wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Sep 2006, Martin Bergstrand wrote:
>
>   
>> Hey guys, this is an interesting debate, but could we please do it someplace 
>> else? On the forums for example, that way the subscribers of this list don't 
>> have to wake up to 50+ new off-topic messages from this list.
>>     
>
> I agree completely - it would be interesting to see the subscriber stats 
> for this list; I wouldn't be surprised if it has dropped substantially in 
> the last couple of days.  Certainly if this continues for any longer it 
> WILL, me included.  It isn't that its an uninteresting topic, but it is 
> COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC!
>
> Ian McCulloch
>   
I've never understood why people care about off topic threads. It's an 
*email* list, thus it's reasonable to expect that most people are using 
an email client or some derivative thereof to read the messages posted 
to the list. With all modern email clients that I know of, it's 
absolutely trivial to filter/delete/ignore messages in a specific 
thread. Given that, it's not like anyone not interested in a particular 
thread is being forced to read or even *manually* deal with unwanted 
messages.

Conversly as long as the thread is continuing at least some of the list 
members are interested, exactly what harm does it do to allow an off 
topic thread to die a natural death as all threads eventually do? 

OT threads may violate policy, and that may irritate people who are 
absolute sticklers for strict adherence to the "rules" but beyond that 
what real damage or harm does it cause, and is such damage or harm 
sufficient to justify restricting what some valid list members wish to 
discuss with each other?

-- 
Regards
Bob Young
-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Joe Menola]

On Saturday 30 September 2006 15:21, Bob Young wrote:
> I've never understood why people care about off topic threads. It's an
> *email* list, thus it's reasonable to expect that most people are using
> an email client or some derivative thereof to read the messages posted
> to the list. With all modern email clients that I know of, it's
> absolutely trivial to filter/delete/ignore messages in a specific
> thread. Given that, it's not like anyone not interested in a particular
> thread is being forced to read or even *manually* deal with unwanted
> messages.

Some might stay tuned in the unlikely event that the original topic might be 
further discussed...

-jm
-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Bob Young]

Joe Menola wrote:
> On Saturday 30 September 2006 15:21, Bob Young wrote:
>   
>> I've never understood why people care about off topic threads. It's an
>> *email* list, thus it's reasonable to expect that most people are using
>> an email client or some derivative thereof to read the messages posted
>> to the list. With all modern email clients that I know of, it's
>> absolutely trivial to filter/delete/ignore messages in a specific
>> thread. Given that, it's not like anyone not interested in a particular
>> thread is being forced to read or even *manually* deal with unwanted
>> messages.
>>     
>
> Some might stay tuned in the unlikely event that the original topic might be 
> further discussed...
>
>   

Uhhhh.....if you have some desire to discuss the "original topic" is 
there something that prevents you from either replying to a message 
without the OT warning in the subject line, or posting a new message 
with a subject indicating what you want to talk about?

-- 
Regards
Bob Young
-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Joe Menola]

On Saturday 30 September 2006 3:38 pm, Bob Young wrote:
> Uhhhh.....if you have some desire to discuss the "original topic" is
> there something that prevents you from either replying to a message
> without the OT warning in the subject line, or posting a new message
> with a subject indicating what you want to talk about?

Uhhh, no there isn't. Nor is there anything preventing someone from attaching 
a reply to your rambling.
This thread was high-jacked, and now the burden should move to those who post 
according the rules?
I'm finished contributing to the mess...feel free to break the rules, I'll 
work around it.
-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-amd64] OT: Ignore this thread feature?

[Daniel Iliev]

Bob Young wrote:
> Joe Menola wrote:
>> On Saturday 30 September 2006 15:21, Bob Young wrote:
>>  
>>> I've never understood why people care about off topic threads. It's an
>>> *email* list, thus it's reasonable to expect that most people are using
>>> an email client or some derivative thereof to read the messages posted
>>> to the list. With all modern email clients that I know of, it's
>>> absolutely trivial to filter/delete/ignore messages in a specific
>>> thread. Given that, it's not like anyone not interested in a particular
>>> thread is being forced to read or even *manually* deal with unwanted
>>> messages.
>>>     
>>
>> Some might stay tuned in the unlikely event that the original topic
>> might be further discussed...
>>
>>   
>
> Uhhhh.....if you have some desire to discuss the "original topic" is
> there something that prevents you from either replying to a message
> without the OT warning in the subject line, or posting a new message
> with a subject indicating what you want to talk about?
>
Well, I got tired of this thread also. The problem is that there isn't
(or I can't find) an "ignore thread" feature in thunderbird, seamonkey
or mozilla e-mail clients. I would appreciate if someone shows me how to
do it.

Thanks in advance!


-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-amd64] OT: Ignore this thread feature?

[Conway S. Smith]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Daniel Iliev wrote:
> Bob Young wrote:
>> Joe Menola wrote:
>>> On Saturday 30 September 2006 15:21, Bob Young wrote:
>>>  
>>>> I've never understood why people care about off topic threads. It's an
>>>> *email* list, thus it's reasonable to expect that most people are using
>>>> an email client or some derivative thereof to read the messages posted
>>>> to the list. With all modern email clients that I know of, it's
>>>> absolutely trivial to filter/delete/ignore messages in a specific
>>>> thread. Given that, it's not like anyone not interested in a particular
>>>> thread is being forced to read or even *manually* deal with unwanted
>>>> messages.
>>>>     
>>> Some might stay tuned in the unlikely event that the original topic
>>> might be further discussed...
>>>
>>>   
>> Uhhhh.....if you have some desire to discuss the "original topic" is
>> there something that prevents you from either replying to a message
>> without the OT warning in the subject line, or posting a new message
>> with a subject indicating what you want to talk about?
>>
> Well, I got tired of this thread also. The problem is that there isn't
> (or I can't find) an "ignore thread" feature in thunderbird, seamonkey
> or mozilla e-mail clients. I would appreciate if someone shows me how to
> do it.
> 
> Thanks in advance!
> 

I don't think you can completely automatically ignore the thread, but in
threaded view you could just right-click->Mark->Thread as Read whenever
there were new messages.  So it is still manual, but at least you can
easily mark the entire thread.

Actually, I suppose you could probably also write a message filter
(Tools->Message Filter) rule that would be completely automatic, but
speaking for myself I'd probably just right-click->Mark->Thread as Read
whenever I wanted to ignore a thread.



HTH,
Conway S. Smith
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-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-amd64] OT: Ignore this thread feature?

[Daniel Iliev]

Conway S. Smith wrote:
> Daniel Iliev wrote:
> >> Bob Young wrote:
> >>> Joe Menola wrote:
> >>>> On Saturday 30 September 2006 15:21, Bob Young wrote:
> >>>>  
> >>>>> I've never understood why people care about off topic threads.
> It's an
> >>>>> *email* list, thus it's reasonable to expect that most people
> are using
> >>>>> an email client or some derivative thereof to read the messages
> posted
> >>>>> to the list. With all modern email clients that I know of, it's
> >>>>> absolutely trivial to filter/delete/ignore messages in a specific
> >>>>> thread. Given that, it's not like anyone not interested in a
> particular
> >>>>> thread is being forced to read or even *manually* deal with unwanted
> >>>>> messages.
> >>>>>     
> >>>> Some might stay tuned in the unlikely event that the original topic
> >>>> might be further discussed...
> >>>>
> >>>>   
> >>> Uhhhh.....if you have some desire to discuss the "original topic" is
> >>> there something that prevents you from either replying to a message
> >>> without the OT warning in the subject line, or posting a new message
> >>> with a subject indicating what you want to talk about?
> >>>
> >> Well, I got tired of this thread also. The problem is that there isn't
> >> (or I can't find) an "ignore thread" feature in thunderbird, seamonkey
> >> or mozilla e-mail clients. I would appreciate if someone shows me
> how to
> >> do it.
> >>
> >> Thanks in advance!
> >>
>
> I don't think you can completely automatically ignore the thread, but in
> threaded view you could just right-click->Mark->Thread as Read whenever
> there were new messages.  So it is still manual, but at least you can
> easily mark the entire thread.
>
> Actually, I suppose you could probably also write a message filter
> (Tools->Message Filter) rule that would be completely automatic, but
> speaking for myself I'd probably just right-click->Mark->Thread as Read
> whenever I wanted to ignore a thread.
>
>
>
> HTH,
> Conway S. Smith

I think there should be a way to mark threads as "watched" and/or
"ignored" and afterwards take advantage of the markings via "Ignored
Threads" in "View>>Threads" (which can really be found there).
AFAIK this works on news threads but is not implemented for e-mail in
thunderbird. That's why I emerged seamonkey, but there's nothing
different in this context.


-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Bob Young]

Joe Menola wrote:
> On Saturday 30 September 2006 3:38 pm, Bob Young wrote:
>   
>> Uhhhh.....if you have some desire to discuss the "original topic" is
>> there something that prevents you from either replying to a message
>> without the OT warning in the subject line, or posting a new message
>> with a subject indicating what you want to talk about?
>>     
>
> Uhhh, no there isn't. Nor is there anything preventing someone from attaching 
> a reply to your rambling.
>   
Are you suggesting there should be something?

It sounds like your a fan of censorship and prefer rules to always be 
strictly enforced with zero tolerance for any deviation.

> This thread was high-jacked, and now the burden should move to those who post 
> according the rules?
>   
Actually a more accurate description might be that it was forked, as the 
subject line was modified differentiating it from the original, and 
there was certainly nothing to prevent anyone from replying to the 
original message/thread and carrying on with a discussion of the 
original topic.

> I'm finished contributing to the mess...feel free to break the rules, I'll 
> work around it.
>   
Sorry, I just honestly don't see the any cause of major inconvenience or 
damage  (aka "mess") here. I'm sure that there must be examples of 
threads that were completely "on topic" but you personally were not 
interested in, obviously you dealt with those threads in some fashion. 
Why is it so difficult to deal with the occasional OT thread the same 
way, especially when it's clearly marked?

It's not like the list is overrun with OT threads, nor do I see any 
indication that the list is likely to be overrun with OT messages in the 
future.

-- 
Regards
Bob Young
-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: Annoyance

[Daniel Iliev]

Bob Young wrote:
> Joe Menola wrote:
>> On Saturday 30 September 2006 3:38 pm, Bob Young wrote:
>>  
>>> Uhhhh.....if you have some desire to discuss the "original topic" is
>>> there something that prevents you from either replying to a message
>>> without the OT warning in the subject line, or posting a new message
>>> with a subject indicating what you want to talk about?
>>>     
>>
>> Uhhh, no there isn't. Nor is there anything preventing someone from
>> attaching a reply to your rambling.
>>   
> Are you suggesting there should be something?
>
> It sounds like your a fan of censorship and prefer rules to always be
> strictly enforced with zero tolerance for any deviation.
>
>> This thread was high-jacked, and now the burden should move to those
>> who post according the rules?
>>   
> Actually a more accurate description might be that it was forked, as
> the subject line was modified differentiating it from the original,
> and there was certainly nothing to prevent anyone from replying to the
> original message/thread and carrying on with a discussion of the
> original topic.
>
>> I'm finished contributing to the mess...feel free to break the rules,
>> I'll work around it.
>>   
> Sorry, I just honestly don't see the any cause of major inconvenience
> or damage  (aka "mess") here. I'm sure that there must be examples of
> threads that were completely "on topic" but you personally were not
> interested in, obviously you dealt with those threads in some fashion.
> Why is it so difficult to deal with the occasional OT thread the same
> way, especially when it's clearly marked?
>
> It's not like the list is overrun with OT threads, nor do I see any
> indication that the list is likely to be overrun with OT messages in
> the future.
>


There is no major problem. It's that I (for example) just  lost my
interest in the "slaveryware drift" some time ago and now I find it
annoying to see "there are 3 new messages in AMD64" and to discover they
are "oh..in that thread again". So I mark the thread as read and resume
with previous occupation. If I had a simple way to ignore the thread and
check it at will, say once a week, it would be perfect.

Here we can see one of the advantages of the web forums over the mailing
lists - in case like this the moderators in a web forum could just
change the title of the thread and move it into some "chit-chat"
category, dedicated for OTs.

 ;-)


-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: Annoyance

[Bob Young]

Daniel Iliev wrote:
> Bob Young wrote:
>   
>> Sorry, I just honestly don't see the any cause of major inconvenience
>> or damage  (aka "mess") here. I'm sure that there must be examples of
>> threads that were completely "on topic" but you personally were not
>> interested in, obviously you dealt with those threads in some fashion.
>> Why is it so difficult to deal with the occasional OT thread the same
>> way, especially when it's clearly marked?
>>
>> It's not like the list is overrun with OT threads, nor do I see any
>> indication that the list is likely to be overrun with OT messages in
>> the future.
>>
>>     
>
>
> There is no major problem. It's that I (for example) just  lost my
> interest in the "slaveryware drift" some time ago and now I find it
> annoying to see "there are 3 new messages in AMD64" and to discover they
> are "oh..in that thread again". So I mark the thread as read and resume
> with previous occupation. If I had a simple way to ignore the thread and
> check it at will, say once a week, it would be perfect.
>
> Here we can see one of the advantages of the web forums over the mailing
> lists - in case like this the moderators in a web forum could just
> change the title of the thread and move it into some "chit-chat"
> category, dedicated for OTs.
>
>   
Okay, fair enough, but how exactly how and why is that so different from 
3 new messages showing up that are "on topic" but that you personnally 
have no interest in reading? In that case wouldn't the end result be 
exactly the same namely that you would "discover they are "oh..about 
that subject" then you would mark the thread as read and resume with 
previous occupation." Unless I'm missing something, the *only* 
difference is whether the topic qualifies as being in a particular and 
somewhat subjective catagory.

Given your opinion I'm curious as to why you would change the subject, 
and in so doing defeat the efforts of the people who might have been 
filtering  on the "slaveryware drift" subject line.

BTW For everyone else out there....feel free to post something on topic, 
this OT thread is already very near it's natural death, some on topic 
posts will probably put the final nail in the coffin.

-- 
Regards
Bob Young



-- 
Regards
Bob Young
-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: Annoyance

[Daniel Iliev]

Bob Young wrote:
> Daniel Iliev wrote:
>> Bob Young wrote:
>>  
>>> Sorry, I just honestly don't see the any cause of major inconvenience
>>> or damage  (aka "mess") here. I'm sure that there must be examples of
>>> threads that were completely "on topic" but you personally were not
>>> interested in, obviously you dealt with those threads in some fashion.
>>> Why is it so difficult to deal with the occasional OT thread the same
>>> way, especially when it's clearly marked?
>>>
>>> It's not like the list is overrun with OT threads, nor do I see any
>>> indication that the list is likely to be overrun with OT messages in
>>> the future.
>>>
>>>     
>>
>>
>> There is no major problem. It's that I (for example) just  lost my
>> interest in the "slaveryware drift" some time ago and now I find it
>> annoying to see "there are 3 new messages in AMD64" and to discover they
>> are "oh..in that thread again". So I mark the thread as read and resume
>> with previous occupation. If I had a simple way to ignore the thread and
>> check it at will, say once a week, it would be perfect.
>>
>> Here we can see one of the advantages of the web forums over the mailing
>> lists - in case like this the moderators in a web forum could just
>> change the title of the thread and move it into some "chit-chat"
>> category, dedicated for OTs.
>>
>>   
> Okay, fair enough, but how exactly how and why is that so different
> from 3 new messages showing up that are "on topic" but that you
> personnally have no interest in reading? In that case wouldn't the end
> result be exactly the same namely that you would "discover they are
> "oh..about that subject" then you would mark the thread as read and
> resume with previous occupation." Unless I'm missing something, the
> *only* difference is whether the topic qualifies as being in a
> particular and somewhat subjective catagory.
>
> Given your opinion I'm curious as to why you would change the subject,
> and in so doing defeat the efforts of the people who might have been
> filtering  on the "slaveryware drift" subject line.
>
> BTW For everyone else out there....feel free to post something on
> topic, this OT thread is already very near it's natural death, some on
> topic posts will probably put the final nail in the coffin.
>

The difference is that normally "on topic" threads (including those
which are of no interest to me) die relatively fast - OT's question,
several answers, a few clarifications and OT's final thanks while this
one became enormous. ;-)

All I'm saying is I just wish I had that feature to ignore the thread
for later viewing. It is my opinion that filtering serves different
purposes even it could be used for replacement of "ignore".

I repeat again - the thread's fine by me. I can even say there was a
thing I liked very much before I stopped reading the messages in the
"slaveryware drift". It was very nice to see that despite the different
positions no one lost his manners.



-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: Annoyance

[Daniel Iliev]

Just saw a typo that changes the meaning of my previous post:

This:
"OT's question, several answers, a few clarifications and OT's"
should be:
"the OP's question, several answers, a few clarifications and the OP's"


Please, accept my apologies.

-- 
Best regards,
Daniel


-- 
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Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: Annoyance

[Peter Davoust]

Is there something in the water? First the topic takes a bend towards
fascism and open-source, then I get three e-mails about how annoying or
not annoying this off topic post about another off topic post is. I
guess this is the first "recursive topic". 

-peter
On Sun, 2006-10-01 at 05:16 +0300, Daniel Iliev wrote:
> Just saw a typo that changes the meaning of my previous post:
> 
> This:
> "OT's question, several answers, a few clarifications and OT's"
> should be:
> "the OP's question, several answers, a few clarifications and the OP's"
> 
> 
> Please, accept my apologies.
> 
> -- 
> Best regards,
> Daniel
> 
> 

-- 
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: Annoyance

[Daniel Iliev]

Peter Davoust wrote:
> Is there something in the water? First the topic takes a bend towards
> fascism and open-source, then I get three e-mails about how annoying or
> not annoying this off topic post about another off topic post is. I
> guess this is the first "recursive topic". 
>
> -peter
>   

May be it's the water, may be it's the air..who knows...
This "multi-off-topic" thread appears to be the most interesting since
there are several "ON-topic" threads (newer than this one) where no one
bothers to write a few lines...

-- 
Best regards,
Daniel


-- 
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[gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware)

[Duncan]

Bob Young <byoung@nucoretech.com> posted 451ECA46.7090302@nucoretech.com,
excerpted below, on  Sat, 30 Sep 2006 12:49:26 -0700:

> I suppose it comes down how one values being technically correct versus
> what actually happens in the real world. Personally I tend to be more
> practical, but certainly the world needs people who stick to the exact
> letter of the law, as we do of course need some accountants and lawyers.

> That being said, I can't resist making the tangential and totally off
> topic comment that I think America  in general, has gone waaaaay too far
> toward the *exact letter of the law* side. Zero tolerance, mandatory
> sentences,  and just the general "climate" of the society [...]

Conversely, I tend to take things literally, be a letter of the law guy as
you say.  However, if I think the law goes to far, I'll simply call it at
that and choose whether I think that strongly enough to ignore it and face
the consequences or not.  If I get caught speeding, it's because I thought
the speed limit was in appropriate and weighing the consequences, chose to
ignore that law and take the punishment if I was caught and it came.

I agree with where you are headed, but don't think failing to enforce the
letter of the law most of the time is the way to fix it.  Rather, if the
law is too strict (and I too think it is), loosen it up.  Change the law
tho, not the enforcement thereof.

If only the enforcement is changed, what happens is that we get a
situation where everybody's breaking the law but few pay the price. 
That's a situation ripe for abuse, because /someone/ gets to choose who
the law /does/ get enforced on, and it's all too easy to play favorites,
due to skin color or wallet size (many would argue that's what's actually
happening today) or whether sexual or other favors were paid.

Actually, that's in effect what happens in nearly all
corporations/bureaucracies/governments/organizations of anything larger
than the 20-30 people that can effectively know each other.  There's a set
of written policies that it's impossible to keep to and keep up
efficiency/production/whatever, and a set of unwritten policies that you
break and you are fired/expelled/excommunicated/guantanamo-ized/whatever. 
The thing is, because everyone /has/ to break the written policies or get
left behind, what happens is that they become the formal reason for
termination or whatever, even tho everyone breaks them, and the real
reason was that the unwritten policy/rule/law/whatever was broken. 
Too-bad, so-sad, if you simply didn't understand that unwritten one.  You
were expected to just know it, even tho it wasn't written down anywhere or
specifically stated at any time.  As they say, not knowning isn't an
excuse.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

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[gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)

[Duncan]

Steev Klimaszewski <steev@gentoo.org> posted 451E6F01.8090406@gentoo.org,
excerpted below, on  Sat, 30 Sep 2006 08:20:01 -0500:

> I am sorry but "Programming for
> Dummies" and "Teach yourself C++ in 10 minutes" (just to steal your
> examples) will not teach you the coding skills that you actually need for
> the opensource world - as they typically are written for.... Windows...

FWIW...  that's one reason nearly all the books I buy now are O'Reilly. 
While where appropriate they include a chapter or two on the closed
platforms side, they include FLOSS platforms as well and the book as a
whole tends to be platform neutral, discussing perl or python or C or C++
or whatever it might be, with notes one way or the other as appropriate.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

-- 
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[gentoo-amd64] Re: routers and mp3 players that do FLOSS Was: slaveryware

[Duncan]

"Boyd Stephen Smith Jr." <bss03@volumehost.net> posted
200609300330.48229.bss03@volumehost.net, excerpted below, on  Sat, 30 Sep
2006 03:30:44 -0500:

[on Linksys WRT compatible routers]

> I've had good luck running OpenWRT on the older models (v1.1 and v2).  The
> newer non-L(inux) models [which can have Linux installed on them by the
> user, after killing VxWorks] have fewer resources, so DD-WRT might be more
> appropriate, but I don't have any experience with that.  The newer L(inux)
> models come at a premium and may not be carried everywhere, but OpenWRT is
> a fine choice for them.

If I go that route, I'd either get the Linux model or a compatible unit
from someone else.  (I know they exist but don't know specifically which
ones are and are not compatible with the WRT firmwares, at this time, so
if I were buying now, it'd be the Linksys Linux model.)  

The one I have, one of the first generation routers, a Netgear rt314 (OEMed
zyxel p314), that cost me $200 when I bought it years ago.  It has been
old faithful and would likely continue to be old faithful for many more
years, and that was the going price at the time so I've certainly
gotten my money's worth, no complaints there, but it's just getting to be
too slow -- only 10Mbit Ethernet WAN side, tho 100Mbit LAN side.

Anyway, given the $200 I paid for the old one, even the premium $80-ish
I'd pay for a Linux version Linksys now doesn't seem unreasonable, given
the increased flexibility I'd have with it.

> If the load on the LAN will be large, be aware that the WRT hw does have
> some issues under heavy load, particularly when the number of TCP
> connections being created is high which happens with some P2P clients.

It wouldn't be that large, really.  It's for personal use, and I tend to
put all my money/time/energy into a single machine at once, so I don't
tend to have a lot of LAN traffic.  However, I /am/ learning skills and
techniques I might end up putting to use elsewhere at some point, and even
if not, it's better than even money that I'd end up replying to someone on
a newsgroup or the like that /was/ using it for something more major --
that always seems to be happening <g>, so I try to keep information
appropriate to those possibilities filed away in my head.  <g>  Thus,
regardless of my personal use, it's useful info.  Thanks.

>> (if it's not, it'll be a full computer running a conventional x86 or
>> x86_64/amd64 based Linux kernel), bought with the intent of upgrading it
>> to one of the several open source firmware alternatives available.
> 
> If you need GigE speeds for the LAN, be sure to find a main board with
> good buses.  No PC NICs that I know of support HW level routing at any
> layer, so every packet that is routed has to cross your bus twice, once
> going to memory and once going back to that (or another) NIC.  The
> standard PCI bus (not PCI-X or PCI-e) can only support 4 Gbps in the best
> of conditions, which means only about 2 GigE clients.

As I said, not likely stuff I personally need to worry about, but useful
information even so.  For me, most traffic will be across the LAN/WAN
barrier, not LAN side, and 100Mbit Fast Ethernet should be plenty for
several more years anyway, WAN side.  As I said, my current router is
10Mbit Ethernet WAN side, but Cox just upped the cap to 7Mbit down from 6,
here, and the premium service /was/ 9Mbit -- it might be 10 now tho I
haven't checked.  I know my router was/is handling 6Mbit across the
WAN/LAN barrier just fine, but either the 7Mbit hasn't yet taken effect or
6Mbit is top of the line for this router.  I know it's getting close as
7-8Mbit is pretty close to top thruput on 10Mbit Ethernet in any case,
even when it's /not/ across a LAN/WAN router barrier.  Thus, even if I get
lucky and it'll actually do 7Mbit, I don't expect it'll take the next
jump, so it's time to upgrade.  However, given I was on 608kbit DSL when I
got this router, and it has taken me thru 6Mbit anyway, over five plus
years, far more than the Linksys (for example) of the same generation did,
I figure I've gotten my money's worth and if I do 100Mbit and five-ish
years from now have to upgrade as it goes past 70Mbit, I've nothing to
complain about there either.  =8^)  So no, gigabit isn't something I'm
even worried about at this point, tho obviously it'd be nice for
flexibility if I can get it.

Anyway, some of the boards now come with two or more separate PCI buses. 
I know my current Tyan dual Opteron comes with three plus the AGP, two
slots each on two dual PCI-X, off the AMD north-side PCI-X chip (8131), and
an old 5v compatibility PCI off the south-bridge (8111).  While I'd not be
getting anything /that/ high end for my router, presumably someone wanting
to run four or five gig-E interfaces off the same mobo/cpu /would/ need
something with that sort of PCI layout, and since I have it on my main
machine mobo, it's certainly available.

The thing I'm debating now, is if I choose to go full computer anyway, why
not go lowest end amd64 I can buy, and run Gentoo on it the same as on my
main system, in which case I can share at least /some/ packages, the ones
without desktop specific USE flags that I want on both systems, anyway. 
In theory, I could even run a distcc client on it to help with compiling,
altho my coming upgrade to dual dual-core Opterons (285s, most likely)
would mean I'd not get /that/ much benefit out of it, and it'd break the
rule of not putting stuff like gcc on a firewall purposed system.  I
figure low end bare-bones, with a smallish <100GB hard drive set hardware
write-only mode after installation) and using an extra half-gig RAM stick I
already have, would run ~$300-ish.

So... anybody have any opinions on this?  Should I go straight 32-bit or
64-bit Gentoo?  If I went 32-bit, I'd probably go with a pre-built router
distribution instead of bothering with trying to keep up with Gentoo on
it, altho I might change my mind on that after I get the dual Opteron 285s
in my main system.  Anybody else running such things, either Gentoo or
other Linux or BSD?  Why did you choose what you did?

See, this thread /did/ come back around to amd64!  <g>

>> Likewise, my next mp3 player, which
>> will be my first hard drive based unit, will be purchased with the
>> intent of upgrading it to rockbox or a similar alternative, as well as
>> upgrading the hard drive to a 120 gig or so model.
> 
> While the HD isn't upgradable, the iRiver H10 line will run Rockbox.
> IIRC, the older H300 models do as well.  I've be very happy with my
> iFP-799, although I do use a hacked firmware, which improves the range
> of Vorbis bitrates the player supports.  (The native vorbis support of
> the iFP line was the main reason I purchased from iRiver.)  IIRC,
> Rockbox is also being ported to the iFP line, but that port is not
> complete.  Once I feel installing RockBox is safe, I'll probably upgrade
> my iFP to it.

I've been looking at the H10 line, and I /think/ some of them might
actually be HD upgradable, now.  They are running 1.8" hard drives, which
at present top out at 60 gig, but new ones have been announced, and 120
gig shouldn't be far away.

Do you know for sure that the current 20 gig (or maybe 30 gig) aren't hard
drive upgradeable?

Anyway, I figure it'll be 1H2007 before the 120 gig 1.8" drives are
decently available, so I had some time to wait, for both that and rockbox
H10 support to develop further.

The other thing I was figuring was that iPods will probably be announced
with 120 gig 1.8" drives shortly after they become available as well. 
While rockbox iPod support for that generation would lag a bit, it's a
fair bet they'd come out with it.  It's also a fair bet I could buy a
smaller capacity one that already has rockbox support and upgrade the
drive. However, again, we're looking at probably first half next year
before the drives are widely available, and in any case I expect I'll be
doing the dual Opteron 285 upgrades first, later this year, and will be
waiting several months after that before getting serious on the mp3 player
front, which would again take me to March or later of next year, so it
looks like everything will come together nicely at about the same time. <g>

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"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
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Re: [gentoo-amd64] OT: Ignore this thread feature?

[Simon Stelling]

Conway S. Smith wrote:
> I don't think you can completely automatically ignore the thread, but in
> threaded view you could just right-click->Mark->Thread as Read whenever
> there were new messages.  So it is still manual, but at least you can
> easily mark the entire thread.

It's far easier actually... Just select a random mail from the thread 
and press 'r'. That's it.


-- 
Kind Regards,

Simon Stelling
Gentoo/AMD64 developer
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Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware)

[Richard Freeman]

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Hash: SHA1

Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
> On Saturday 30 September 2006 01:39, "Duncan" <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> wrote 
> about '[gentoo-amd64]  Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware)':
>> "Boyd Stephen Smith Jr." <bss03@volumehost.net> posted
>> 200609300101.09472.bss03@volumehost.net, excerpted below, on  Sat, 30
>> Sep
>> 2006 01:01:05 -0500:
>>> Apparently his mailer
>>> (Thunderbird + Enigmail) seems to be singing his messages twice.
>> He's signing using two different formats, apparently, smime and pgp/gpg.
> 
> Yeah, they should probably only use one technique to sign their messages.  
> inline PGP/GPG is deprecated, IIRC, because it doesn't handle attachments 
> well (or at all?).  S/MIME is preferred now but, inline PGP/GPG, being a 
> bit older, has better support.  I know kmail still has some ease-of-use 
> issues with S/MIME, but I don't think it affects correctness.
> 

Well, I can probably shed some light on things:

1.  Yes, my messages are signed twice (gpg and s/mime).  I found half
the mailers out there support one or the other, but not always both.
So, I use both.  Probably doesn't hurt much other than the inline gpg.

2.  The signatures probably are valid on every mail reader out there -
as far as I can tell.

3.  HOWEVER, the s/mime signature is using a cert from cacert.org, which
hasn't paid for a webtrust audit - and therefore is not in the root cert
list for most browsers/email clients.  So, while the signature is valid,
the chain of trust probably isn't.

4.  cacert is about as open-source as you can get for something like a
CA.  Unfortunately, while gpg uses the web-of-trust model s/mime uses a
top-down model.  While most users don't think about it, they're
implicitly allowing whoever distributes their software to decide who
they will trust...  (As an aside, cacert.org is interested in trying to
get more mainstream support, but for various (often reasonable) reasons
most distributors are more interested in just deferring to webtrust -
which is VERY expensive.)  The community really does need a better
solution for SSL certs.  (Yes, you can get an s/mime cert free from the
big players, but you certainly can't get one for https...)
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Re: [gentoo-amd64] OT: Ignore this thread feature?

[Conway S. Smith]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Daniel Iliev wrote:
> Conway S. Smith wrote:
>> Daniel Iliev wrote:
>>>> Well, I got tired of this thread also. The problem is that there isn't
>>>> (or I can't find) an "ignore thread" feature in thunderbird, seamonkey
>>>> or mozilla e-mail clients. I would appreciate if someone shows me
>> how to
>>>> do it.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks in advance!
>>>>
>> I don't think you can completely automatically ignore the thread, but in
>> threaded view you could just right-click->Mark->Thread as Read whenever
>> there were new messages.  So it is still manual, but at least you can
>> easily mark the entire thread.
>>
>> Actually, I suppose you could probably also write a message filter
>> (Tools->Message Filter) rule that would be completely automatic, but
>> speaking for myself I'd probably just right-click->Mark->Thread as Read
>> whenever I wanted to ignore a thread.
>>
>>
>>
>> HTH,
>> Conway S. Smith
> 
> I think there should be a way to mark threads as "watched" and/or
> "ignored" and afterwards take advantage of the markings via "Ignored
> Threads" in "View>>Threads" (which can really be found there).
> AFAIK this works on news threads but is not implemented for e-mail in
> thunderbird. That's why I emerged seamonkey, but there's nothing
> different in this context.
> 

You might be interested in checking out sylpheed-claws instead of
thunderbird for your GUI mail client.  I'm probably going to switch over
to it myself sooner or later - sooner if I can figure out a way to
migrate mailboxes from thunderbird.  But anyway, I checked just now, and
sylpheed-claws does have an Ignore Thread / Unignore Thread option.
Unfortunately at first glance its threading seems to be not quite as
robust as thunderbird's, but that may be due to sylpheed-claws not
having all the previous messages in the thread.


Conway S. Smith
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Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: routers and mp3 players that do FLOSS Was: slaveryware

[Greg Bur]

On 10/1/06, Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> wrote:
> The thing I'm debating now, is if I choose to go full computer anyway, why
> not go lowest end amd64 I can buy, and run Gentoo on it the same as on my
> main system, in which case I can share at least /some/ packages, the ones
> without desktop specific USE flags that I want on both systems, anyway.
> In theory, I could even run a distcc client on it to help with compiling,
> altho my coming upgrade to dual dual-core Opterons (285s, most likely)
> would mean I'd not get /that/ much benefit out of it, and it'd break the
> rule of not putting stuff like gcc on a firewall purposed system.  I
> figure low end bare-bones, with a smallish <100GB hard drive set hardware
> write-only mode after installation) and using an extra half-gig RAM stick I
> already have, would run ~$300-ish.
>
> So... anybody have any opinions on this?  Should I go straight 32-bit or
> 64-bit Gentoo?  If I went 32-bit, I'd probably go with a pre-built router
> distribution instead of bothering with trying to keep up with Gentoo on
> it, altho I might change my mind on that after I get the dual Opteron 285s
> in my main system.  Anybody else running such things, either Gentoo or
> other Linux or BSD?  Why did you choose what you did?

I just finished building a Gentoo router on a spare PC I had laying
around.  I'm using it for much more than a router though.  It's an old
P-III system so it only has a 100MHz bus and I had to use a Promise
ATA card for ATA66 support but it more than does the job.  Two things
I did add were a local portage rsync mirror so I only have to run
emerge --sync once and then sync my other Gentoo machines against the
"router."  I also installed squid and set up a faster drive with
reiser4 and a huge cache for the purpose of saving bandwidth.  I've
noticed quite a difference when downloading packages for installation.
 For instance, if there is an update for glibc the first computer to
grab it will download at the speed of my DSL link but subsequent
machines download at LAN speeds.  This of course assumes that my AMD64
and x86 machines are downloading the same version of the file from the
same mirror.  I've also thrown a lot of other packages on there like
snort, backuppc and ntop.  Basically I'm using it to play around with
various bits of security software along with the usual routing duties.
 Of course there is the matter of breaking the unwritten rule of not
having a compiler on an Internet-facing machine and I completely
understand that point of view.  However, I am often left wondering
about how people running FreeBSD address this issue due to the
compiler being an integral part of the base system.

All-in-all if you're looking at building a PC-based router I would
just use an old box if you have one laying around and put a pair of
network cards in it.  Unless of course you have all AMD64 systems on
your network.  In that case it would make more sense to buy or build
an AMD64-based system and then do something like I have done with
squid.
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[gentoo-amd64] Re: routers and mp3 players that do FLOSS Was: slaveryware

[Duncan]

"Greg Bur" <greg.bur@gmail.com> posted
976cb44f0610011159i577d04bbja840416ec43c4ce3@mail.gmail.com, excerpted
below, on  Sun, 01 Oct 2006 14:59:51 -0400:

> All-in-all if you're looking at building a PC-based router I would
> just use an old box if you have one laying around and put a pair of
> network cards in it.  Unless of course you have all AMD64 systems on
> your network.  In that case it would make more sense to buy or build
> an AMD64-based system and then do something like I have done with
> squid.

That's pretty much where I'm at, all amd64 at this point.  Thus, I'm left
debating whether it's worth the extra hundred or so to go with an amd64
router box just so I can be running the same thing everywhere, or not.

Thanks.  That's exactly the type of feedback I was hoping for! =8^)

-- 
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"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

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Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: routers and mp3 players that do FLOSS Was: slaveryware

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2376 bytes --]

On Sunday 01 October 2006 06:01, "Duncan" <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> wrote 
about '[gentoo-amd64]  Re: routers and mp3 players that do FLOSS  Was: 
slaveryware':
> "Boyd Stephen Smith Jr." <bss03@volumehost.net> posted
> 200609300330.48229.bss03@volumehost.net, excerpted below, on  Sat, 30
> Sep 2006 03:30:44 -0500:
> [on Linksys WRT compatible routers]
> If I go that route, I'd either get the Linux model or a compatible unit
> from someone else.  (I know they exist but don't know specifically which
> ones are and are not compatible with the WRT firmwares, at this time, so
> if I were buying now, it'd be the Linksys Linux model.)

OpenWRT's wiki had (and probably still has) a rather large, but probably 
not comprehensive list of hardware that will run their distribution, along 
with some specs re: flash and ram size.  Of course, any hw listed should 
also be able to run smaller distributions (like DD-WRT) as well.

> I figure low end bare-bones, with a smallish <100GB hard drive
> and using an extra
> half-gig RAM stick I already have, would run ~$300-ish.
> So... anybody have any opinions on this?  Should I go straight 32-bit or
> 64-bit Gentoo?

Depends on the actual usage profile, but if, other than routing, it is 
going to be idle 90% of the time the lower memory profile of 32-bit linux 
should outweigh the extra registers of 64-bit linux and the extra 
instructions and address space won't be used.

> > While the HD isn't upgradable, the iRiver H10 line will run Rockbox.
>
> I've been looking at the H10 line, and I /think/ some of them might
> actually be HD upgradable, now.
> Do you know for sure that the current 20 gig (or maybe 30 gig) aren't 
> hard drive upgradeable?

I was at the iriveramerica site earlier this week and remember it saying 
neither the HD nor the battery was replaceable.  That said, sometimes 
official websites give out information the manufacturer *wants* to be 
true, so rockbox or other project sites might be better information -- in 
any case, the iriveramerica site, after a little bit of fighting, can do 
interactively queried about the devices.

-- 
"If there's one thing we've established over the years,
it's that the vast majority of our users don't have the slightest
clue what's best for them in terms of package stability."
-- Gentoo Developer Ciaran McCreesh

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Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: routers and mp3 players that do FLOSS Was: slaveryware

[Nuitari]

>>> While the HD isn't upgradable, the iRiver H10 line will run Rockbox.
>>
>> I've been looking at the H10 line, and I /think/ some of them might
>> actually be HD upgradable, now.
>> Do you know for sure that the current 20 gig (or maybe 30 gig) aren't
>> hard drive upgradeable?
>
> I was at the iriveramerica site earlier this week and remember it saying
> neither the HD nor the battery was replaceable.  That said, sometimes
> official websites give out information the manufacturer *wants* to be
> true, so rockbox or other project sites might be better information -- in
> any case, the iriveramerica site, after a little bit of fighting, can do
> interactively queried about the devices.
>
>

I got an Archos 504 only to find out that nothing (neither rockbox nor 
archopen) is close to have something that would potentially work with it.
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[gentoo-amd64] Re: routers and mp3 players that do FLOSS Was: slaveryware

[Duncan]

Nuitari <nuitari@melchior.nuitari.net> posted
Pine.LNX.4.64.0610012215310.21889@melchior.nuitari.net, excerpted below,
on  Sun, 01 Oct 2006 22:26:05 -0400:

> I got an Archos 504 only to find out that nothing (neither rockbox nor 
> archopen) is close to have something that would potentially work with it.

Indeed.  I was looking at IIRC the 700 series (tho might have been the
500), and came to the same conclusion.  The simple fact is that nothing
they currently have available seems to be even remotely close to being
supported by the community stuff. By the time it is, it's very likely they
won't be selling it any more.

For that reason, I'm writing Archos off as a choice at this point in time.
Due to their popularity, support for iPods is a fairly good gamble, even
yet to be released models with different hardware.  It may take awhile,
but it's fairly likely to happen.  The iriver h10s look to be the only
other close to viable alternatives in the 20+ gig range, at this point. 
There are several sub-10GB flash based players in various stages of
support, but that's not what I'm looking at.

-- 
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"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

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[gentoo-amd64] Re: routers and mp3 players that do FLOSS Was: slaveryware

[Duncan]

"Boyd Stephen Smith Jr." <bss03@volumehost.net> posted
200610011958.25777.bss03@volumehost.net, excerpted below, on  Sun, 01 Oct
2006 19:58:21 -0500:

> I was at the iriveramerica site earlier this week and remember it saying 
> neither the HD nor the battery was replaceable.  That said, sometimes 
> official websites give out information the manufacturer *wants* to be 
> true, so rockbox or other project sites might be better information -- in 
> any case, the iriveramerica site, after a little bit of fighting, can do 
> interactively queried about the devices.

I've a very strong suspicion that's simply the standard "No user
serviceable parts inside" thing that most of us geeks have been ignoring
since before we could even read it!  =8^)

I'd particularly say that's the case with the battery, as it's virtually a
given that /those/ are replaceable, even if they are custom lithium-ion
shaped batteries and finding one that'd actually fit the case would be
difficult.  Match up the voltage and get in roughly the same or higher
amp-hour range, and it should work, even if it's simply pulling the dead
one and replacing it with a plug for an external battery to plugin, since
it won't fit the custom shaped slot.  Again, that's /exactly/ the sort of
thing I've been replacing since not long after I could read.  While the
newer li-ion custom shaped gelpacks are changing things a bit, you'd be
surprised at how many battery packs are simply prewired triple-pack AA
rechargeables with a plug wired onto them, or the like.

If that's the case with the battery, and they make the same
non-user-replaceable claim for both the battery and the hard drive, I'm
extremely skeptical about their claim on the hard drive as well.  Of
course, one has to be careful to get the right interface -- buying a new
120 gig 1.8" SATA won't do any good if the drive being replaced is a 20
gig 1.8" IDE, and then there's the question of whether they use one of the
industry standard interface pinouts or went with something proprietary,
but that info is often available well before the community firmware
support is ready.

Remember, the iPod batteries weren't officially user replaceable either,
and may still not be.  Same with their hard drives.  However,
determined users have been replacing those for years.  There's even sites
documenting how to replace an iPod's 1.8" drive (say it died) with a full
desktop sized 3.5" drive of several hundred gigs, altho of course in that
case the iPod is strapped to the drive and the drive requires an external
power supply.

-- 
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"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

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Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: routers and mp3 players that do FLOSS Was: slaveryware

[Bob Sanders]

Duncan, mused, then expounded:
> 
> For that reason, I'm writing Archos off as a choice at this point in time.
> Due to their popularity, support for iPods is a fairly good gamble, even
> yet to be released models with different hardware.  It may take awhile,
> but it's fairly likely to happen.  The iriver h10s look to be the only
> other close to viable alternatives in the 20+ gig range, at this point. 
> There are several sub-10GB flash based players in various stages of
> support, but that's not what I'm looking at.
>

The Neuros Audio 2 come with an 80GB drive, supports Vorbis and has
had an open firmware project for a couple of years now.  The price is
less than an iPod as it's being discontinued.  While not offically
supported or sactiioned, both the hard drive and battery can be replaced.

I had the first version, just as Vorbis support was deing added.  Upgraded
my hard drive with a standard laptop unit, and used it for a few years
before it finally died - probably too much poking around inside trying to
get a better understanding of it.  The first version's audio wasn't all that
great, but then most people won't care.  And it's a bit bulky as it takes
2.5" drives and it seperates into two pieces.

After mine died, I picked up an Iriver IFP-999 which is quite nice,
very good audio and quite small.  But I miss having 40 GB of space
as 1 GB is very limiting in the music I can carry.

Neuros has the replacment device on hold as they are just finishing up
the OSD - kind of a portable, networked VCR that uses CF, SD, etc. cards,
runs linux with a version of e17 as the display manager.  

Rasterman, himself, created the display manager and has (or had, I haven't
followed the irc logs lately) worked quite hard on it.

There is a pretty active, though small, community supporting the Neuros
Audio devices.  There main website is - http://www.neurosaudio.com/
And there development process is fairly open - irc dev logs, with some
mild censoring, blogs, wiki, and support forums.

As for me, after mucking in the swamps of Myth, I'm looking forward to
the OSD.

Bob
-  
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