[gentoo-amd64] Obligatory KDE4 question.

[gentoo-amd64] Obligatory KDE4 question.

[Mark Haney]

I swear I think I missed the threads on KDE4 after it was released.  I'm 
sure by now at least some people are using it, so how is it on amd64?  I 
know it's buggy and all that, but is it functional?  Are there any 
showstoppers you've seen?

I'd like to throw it on my dev box, but I'm not sure I want to spend a 
lot of time mucking with compiling it if it's not at least somewhat usable.

Thoughts?

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Re: [gentoo-amd64] Obligatory KDE4 question.

[Fernando Boaglio]

Yes, it is =)

And you can keep KDE3 as well.

Actually , I need to run kmail from the KDE3 branch.

You can try it, and switch back to KDE3 anytime you want.

[]'s
Fernando Boaglio
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Re: [gentoo-amd64] Obligatory KDE4 question.

[Mark Haney]

Fernando Boaglio wrote:
> Yes, it is =)
> 
> And you can keep KDE3 as well.
> 
> Actually , I need to run kmail from the KDE3 branch.
> 
> You can try it, and switch back to KDE3 anytime you want.
> 
> []'s
> Fernando Boaglio

I've seen a couple of Gentoo wiki articles on KDe4, is there one in 
particular I should follow?  Or one you suggest?


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Re: [gentoo-amd64] Obligatory KDE4 question.

[ionut cucu]

On Thu, 13 Mar 2008 09:51:21 -0300
"Fernando Boaglio" <boaglio@gmail.com> wrote:

> Yes, it is =)

Confirm
> Actually , I need to run kmail from the KDE3 branch.
Yeah my brother runs amarok from kde3...you guys need to discover mpd
> 
> You can try it, and switch back to KDE3 anytime you want.
No you can't. Either you take the red pill and stick to kde3 or the
blue pill and end up in wonderland fighting bugs, that might prove to
be annoying from time to time but it will not bring X down. 
> 
> []'s
> Fernando Boaglio
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Re: [gentoo-amd64] Obligatory KDE4 question.

[Fernando Boaglio]

>  > You can try it, and switch back to KDE3 anytime you want.
>  No you can't. Either you take the red pill and stick to kde3 or the
>  blue pill and end up in wonderland fighting bugs, that might prove to
>  be annoying from time to time but it will not bring X down.

You are right. I meant you can switch back to KDE3 _after_
uninstalling KDE4. That's what I did after installing KDE 4.0.0 but
since 4.0.1 and 4.0.2 I'm quite happy with my new desktop =)

BTW, I followed this guide:

http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/desktop/kde/kde4.xml

[]'s
Fernando Boaglio
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[gentoo-amd64] Re: Obligatory KDE4 question.

[Duncan]

"Mark Haney" <mhaney@ercbroadband.org> posted
47D921FE.6030809@ercbroadband.org, excerpted below, on  Thu, 13 Mar 2008
08:45:50 -0400:

> I swear I think I missed the threads on KDE4 after it was released.  I'm
> sure by now at least some people are using it, so how is it on amd64?  I
> know it's buggy and all that, but is it functional?  Are there any
> showstoppers you've seen?
> 
> I'd like to throw it on my dev box, but I'm not sure I want to spend a
> lot of time mucking with compiling it if it's not at least somewhat
> usable.

Well... I've been compiling KDE-svn from the overlay for some months, but 
unfortunately hadn't really had any time to decently test it until this 
last week.  Because I was doing the SVN version, it was more crashy but 
more featureful than the current 4.0.x release will ever be.

Here, after actually getting a bit of time to test what I had been 
compiling, I gave up.  Due to lack of what I consider necessary features, 
it's simply not worth any more of my time until at /least/ pre-4.1.x 
feature-freeze, and at this point, honestly, it could easily be pre-4.2.x 
feature-freeze.  

Individual applications may have a bit of eye candy and be worth running, 
but the desktop as a whole isn't, at least not for "power users" like me 
that tend to use the powerful customization and productivity elements of 
the mature KDE-3.5 desktop such as multiple panels and personalized 
hotkeys and colors.  Huge swaths of GUI customization simply isn't there 
or doesn't work as originally advertised that KDE-4 would work.  True, 
users that are as comfortable configuring text files as clicking a button 
or dragging a slider can already configure a lot of that stuff manually, 
but what's the point of spending time in a GUI if you can't even 
configure itself with itself?  (That BTW is one of the points I've 
brought up against GNOME any number of times, advanced GUI config can 
only be done by editing text files, or worse yet for those of us who 
still have MS nightmares from time to time, registry edits.)

Granted, there's the bit of limited functionality there that GNOME style 
users who prefer NOT to have advanced GUI config options to worry about 
(either because they configure them manually or because they just accept 
the defaults) should appreciate -- they may in fact /love/ it -- but for 
those KDE-3 users who've grown to love its GUI tweakability, there's a 
LONG way to go yet before KDE-4 gets even close, let alone has all the 
fancy new KDE-4 features we were sold as worth the long wait.  It may 
indeed ultimately be worth the wait, I certainly hope and expect so, but 
if so, that wait isn't over yet.

So put simply, I recommend staying put with KDE 3.5.9, for now.  There 
will be time enough to try out KDE 4 after 4.1 comes out this (northern 
hemisphere) summer, or 4.2, early next year I'd guess.  Right now, the 
rumors saying it's little more than a developer's preview and base on 
which to build are all too true.

As an example... remember all the talk about plasma and the ability it 
was supposed to have to move apps seamlessly from floating to panel to 
desktop and back again?  Well, desktop to panel sort of works, but 
there's no way to move stuff around in the panel at all without deleting 
it and re-adding it, let alone back to the desktop, and there's no hint 
of the formerly promised moving between a floating app and either the 
desktop or panel.  That, coupled with the fact that there's no way to 
create additional panels, and on dual-head displays, the panel can 
apparently move to any side -- of ONE head -- it can't move to another 
head at all, means the desktop is essentially useless for me with my five 
separate panels each with separate functions and configuration on KDE-3.  
It was nice to be able to move applets from the panel to the desktop and 
I tried using that as a bit of a workaround, but it's not the same, and 
there then seems to be no way to remove the panel.  Further, even just 
being able to set the size of the panel at all is a feature brand new to 
KDE-4.0.2, and not much older in SVN-trunk.

As I said, there's a LONG way to go!  No way could I recommend it at 
present, except for those (like myself) that simply have to see for 
themselves, and have the time and the energy to do so.  It'll be nice 
when it gets there, but it's not there yet.

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Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: Obligatory KDE4 question.

[Mark Haney]

Duncan wrote:
> "Mark Haney" <mhaney@ercbroadband.org> posted
> 47D921FE.6030809@ercbroadband.org, excerpted below, on  Thu, 13 Mar 2008
> 08:45:50 -0400:
> 
>> I swear I think I missed the threads on KDE4 after it was released.  I'm
>> sure by now at least some people are using it, so how is it on amd64?  I
>> know it's buggy and all that, but is it functional?  Are there any
>> showstoppers you've seen?

> As I said, there's a LONG way to go!  No way could I recommend it at 
> present, except for those (like myself) that simply have to see for 
> themselves, and have the time and the energy to do so.  It'll be nice 
> when it gets there, but it's not there yet.
> 

Duncan, as always your comments are insightful and worth reading. I 
appreciate your input, and will likely hold off for the time being.  I 
don't have the time to muck around with it as much as I want to.


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Re: [gentoo-amd64] Obligatory KDE4 question.

[BRM]

--- Juul Spies <sjakie@ouweouwe.nl> wrote:
> Fernando Boaglio schreef:
> >>  > You can try it, and switch back to KDE3 anytime you want.
> >>  No you can't. Either you take the red pill and stick to kde3 or
> the
> >>  blue pill and end up in wonderland fighting bugs, that might
> prove to
> >>  be annoying from time to time but it will not bring X down.
> > You are right. I meant you can switch back to KDE3 _after_
> > uninstalling KDE4. That's what I did after installing KDE 4.0.0 but
> > since 4.0.1 and 4.0.2 I'm quite happy with my new desktop =)
> > BTW, I followed this guide:
> > http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/desktop/kde/kde4.xml
> I followed the very same guide but I do not agree that switching back
> to KDE3 is difficult.
> On the contrary I find it very easy. Just logoff and choose kde3 for 
> your session in kdm and of you go.

I've heard users only the user's list say it's easy to switch back too
without uninstalling. Some even run it under a separate user just to
make sure they keep their own profile under KDE3. So I know it's
possible to have both - plus they are in separate slots in portage.

I'm interested to hear, however, how easy it is for those of us that
login on the command line instead of the GUI. Should be as simple as
re-pointing the xinitrc file for the individual user, no?

TIA,

Ben
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Re: [gentoo-amd64] Obligatory KDE4 question.

[Juul Spies]

Fernando Boaglio schreef:
>>  > You can try it, and switch back to KDE3 anytime you want.
>>  No you can't. Either you take the red pill and stick to kde3 or the
>>  blue pill and end up in wonderland fighting bugs, that might prove to
>>  be annoying from time to time but it will not bring X down.
>>     
>
> You are right. I meant you can switch back to KDE3 _after_
> uninstalling KDE4. That's what I did after installing KDE 4.0.0 but
> since 4.0.1 and 4.0.2 I'm quite happy with my new desktop =)
>
> BTW, I followed this guide:
>
> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/desktop/kde/kde4.xml
>   
I followed the very same guide but I do not agree that switching back to 
KDE3 is difficult.
On the contrary I find it very easy. Just logoff and choose kde3 for 
your session in kdm and
of you go.

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Juul Spies
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[gentoo-amd64] Re: Obligatory KDE4 question.

[Duncan]

"Mark Haney" <mhaney@ercbroadband.org> posted
47D93B98.5030102@ercbroadband.org, excerpted below, on  Thu, 13 Mar 2008
10:35:04 -0400:

> Duncan, as always your comments are insightful and worth reading. I
> appreciate your input, and will likely hold off for the time being.  I
> don't have the time to muck around with it as much as I want to.

That was sort of my original problem, too.  =8^(  I have a fast enough 
machine that once I got past the initial (then) still buggy ebuild 
dependency issues, recompiling wasn't an issue (a couple hours for all of 
KDE4, an hour if I did it daily due to ccache having most everything).  
However, actually getting the time to check it out and see whether I was 
simply not seeing options or whether they weren't there... took awhile.

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[gentoo-amd64] Re: Obligatory KDE4 question.

[Duncan]

BRM <bm_witness@yahoo.com> posted
434429.3348.qm@web65410.mail.ac4.yahoo.com, excerpted below, on  Thu, 13
Mar 2008 13:46:40 -0700:

> I'm interested to hear, however, how easy it is for those of us that
> login on the command line instead of the GUI. Should be as simple as
> re-pointing the xinitrc file for the individual user, no?

I did/do the command-line login thing.  I used the same user for both 
KDE3 and KDE4.  In theory, the script is supposed to take the ~/.kde 
symlink and point it at the right profile (~/.kde3.5 or .kde.svn or the 
4.x version, whatever it is).  In fact, I had some issues with that due 
to my customized setup (I have and use ~/kde*, without the . hiding the 
dirs, normally, tho .kde* exists and points to the same places, and some 
of my temp and cache dir stuff is pointed at customized locations), but 
it worked well enough once I understood what they were doing and created 
my own starter scripts to do the same thing to my customized dirs.

So as long as each computer user account uses only one of the KDEs, and 
as long as you've not customized the user's profile or temp dirs, there 
should be no issues in that regard.  If you have customized but use 
separate users, I'm assuming you're advanced enough to resolve the 
customization issues with a script as I did and there shouldn't be 
anything major.  If you use the same user, things can get a bit complex 
with settings from one showing up but not doing what's expected in the 
other, and this gets MORE complex if you've customized user KDE locations 
a bit, but it's still workable, with some patience.  The worst problem I 
had was losing my KDE3 kmail account settings when KDE4 kmail started 
instead due to mixed-up paths.  Fortunately, I had backups, and was able 
to restore a working file without having to re-setup all my mail accounts 
manually.

So keep to a different user for kde4 testing and don't customize his kde 
and temp locations, and all should be well.  If you use the same user, 
expect some complexity, but it can be managed if you've been cautious and 
done your backups before testing, and know bash and remember enough about 
your customized locations to get each one pointed correctly as 
necessary.  Really, the separate user testing is the way to go at this 
point, but stubborn folks like me prefer doing it the hard way!

The deal breaker here wasn't that, it was simply that huge swaths of 
functionality from 3.x are still missing in 4.x, as I mentioned in an 
earlier post.  If you aren't the seriously customizing type, you'll 
probably be fine, but then I can't really see why you'd be interested in 
being so far out front on KDE4, either.

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