* [gentoo-amd64] vmware-player fonts unreadable @ 2007-03-08 23:57 Michael George 2007-03-09 1:36 ` Chris Traylor ` (3 more replies) 0 siblings, 4 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Michael George @ 2007-03-08 23:57 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-amd64 I recently upgrade my kernel from 2.6.17 to 2.6.19. I also upgraded hal to 0.5.7.1-r3, emul-linux libraries, and some other packages. I can run vmware-player just fine and my install of XP will run in it, but all the text is just little boxes. Luckily, I remember the important ones (exit, how to focus and release focus, etc), but I cannot change any options now. Has anyone else run into this? Is it perhaps the emulation libraries being a problem? -- -M There are 10 kinds of people in this world: Those who can count in binary and those who cannot. -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-amd64] vmware-player fonts unreadable 2007-03-08 23:57 [gentoo-amd64] vmware-player fonts unreadable Michael George @ 2007-03-09 1:36 ` Chris Traylor 2007-03-09 14:50 ` The Doctor ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Chris Traylor @ 2007-03-09 1:36 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-amd64 [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1059 bytes --] On Thu, 2007-03-08 at 18:57 -0500, Michael George wrote: > I recently upgrade my kernel from 2.6.17 to 2.6.19. I also upgraded hal > to 0.5.7.1-r3, emul-linux libraries, and some other packages. > > I can run vmware-player just fine and my install of XP will run in it, > but all the text is just little boxes. Luckily, I remember the > important ones (exit, how to focus and release focus, etc), but I cannot > change any options now. > > Has anyone else run into this? Is it perhaps the emulation libraries > being a problem? I haven't had this problem, but since you've upgraded your kernel, it might help to run: /opt/vmware/player/bin/vmware-config.pl which can reset font paths and such. You may also wish to remerge the player, and see if that helps. Sorry, I couldn't be of more assistance, but maybe these simple steps can solve your problem. > > -- > -M > > There are 10 kinds of people in this world: > Those who can count in binary and those who cannot. Chris -- "Democracy is just a suggestion box for slaves."- Stefan Molyneux [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1834 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-amd64] vmware-player fonts unreadable 2007-03-08 23:57 [gentoo-amd64] vmware-player fonts unreadable Michael George 2007-03-09 1:36 ` Chris Traylor @ 2007-03-09 14:50 ` The Doctor 2007-03-10 14:04 ` Michael George 2007-03-10 18:56 ` Simon Stelling 2007-03-12 13:18 ` The Doctor 3 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: The Doctor @ 2007-03-09 14:50 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-amd64 [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 975 bytes --] Michael George wrote: > I can run vmware-player just fine and my install of XP will run in it, > but all the text is just little boxes. Luckily, I remember the > important ones (exit, how to focus and release focus, etc), but I cannot > change any options now. > > Has anyone else run into this? Is it perhaps the emulation libraries > being a problem? Yes - I ran into this with mozilla-firefox-bin (which also seems to have broken Flash 9) and mplayer-bin a couple of days ago. This morning I ran an emerge -C to uninstall all of the packages, re-sync'd my Portage tree, and re-emerged everything. Because I'm not in the same physical location as that box, though, I can't test it yet. I'll try it tonight after I get home from work, though, and post my results. -- The Doctor [412/724/301/703] PGP: 0x807B17C1 / 7960 1CDC 85C9 0B63 8D9F DD89 3BD8 FF2B 807B 17C1 WWW: http://drwho.virtadpt.net/ Doko ni datte, hito wa tsunagette iru. [-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 260 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-amd64] vmware-player fonts unreadable 2007-03-09 14:50 ` The Doctor @ 2007-03-10 14:04 ` Michael George 2007-03-10 14:36 ` Michael George 0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: Michael George @ 2007-03-10 14:04 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-amd64 I have tried re-running vmware-config, emerge -C of vmware player with a complete reinstall, I even tried version 1.0.3 (which wouldn't start up right), but none of that worked. The fonts for the player are still missing. BTW, I resync my portage tree daily, so it's not out of date. Does vmware-player install as binaries? I guess I didn't watch the build to see if it doesn... if so, then maybe my upgrade of the emul-linux-x86-{baselibs,xlibs,qtlibs,soundlibs,gtklibs,sdl,medialibs} might have caused the problem. ldd on vmplayer shows it as statically linked, so it's not a shared library that's the problem... qdepends shows shared-mime-info as a dependency, so I tried updating that... But that didn't help, either. I wonder if there's a dependency that is overlooked in the ebuild... Is there a way to find that out? Anyone have any other suggestions? On Fri, Mar 09, 2007 at 09:50:05AM -0500, The Doctor wrote: > Michael George wrote: > > I can run vmware-player just fine and my install of XP will run in it, > > but all the text is just little boxes. Luckily, I remember the > > important ones (exit, how to focus and release focus, etc), but I cannot > > change any options now. > > > > Has anyone else run into this? Is it perhaps the emulation libraries > > being a problem? > > Yes - I ran into this with mozilla-firefox-bin (which also seems to have broken > Flash 9) and mplayer-bin a couple of days ago. This morning I ran an emerge -C > to uninstall all of the packages, re-sync'd my Portage tree, and re-emerged > everything. Because I'm not in the same physical location as that box, though, > I can't test it yet. I'll try it tonight after I get home from work, though, > and post my results. -- -M There are 10 kinds of people in this world: Those who can count in binary and those who cannot. -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-amd64] vmware-player fonts unreadable 2007-03-10 14:04 ` Michael George @ 2007-03-10 14:36 ` Michael George 2007-03-10 14:47 ` Joe Menola 0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: Michael George @ 2007-03-10 14:36 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-amd64 I noticed that my realplayer also has the same problems, so I don't think it's a vmware-specific issue... Hmm... On Sat, Mar 10, 2007 at 09:04:21AM -0500, Michael George wrote: > I have tried re-running vmware-config, emerge -C of vmware player with a > complete reinstall, I even tried version 1.0.3 (which wouldn't start up > right), but none of that worked. The fonts for the player are still > missing. BTW, I resync my portage tree daily, so it's not out of date. > > Does vmware-player install as binaries? I guess I didn't watch the > build to see if it doesn... if so, then maybe my upgrade of the > emul-linux-x86-{baselibs,xlibs,qtlibs,soundlibs,gtklibs,sdl,medialibs} might > have caused the problem. > > ldd on vmplayer shows it as statically linked, so it's not a shared > library that's the problem... > > qdepends shows shared-mime-info as a dependency, so I tried updating > that... But that didn't help, either. > > I wonder if there's a dependency that is overlooked in the ebuild... Is there > a way to find that out? > > Anyone have any other suggestions? > > On Fri, Mar 09, 2007 at 09:50:05AM -0500, The Doctor wrote: > > Michael George wrote: > > > I can run vmware-player just fine and my install of XP will run in it, > > > but all the text is just little boxes. Luckily, I remember the > > > important ones (exit, how to focus and release focus, etc), but I cannot > > > change any options now. > > > > > > Has anyone else run into this? Is it perhaps the emulation libraries > > > being a problem? > > > > Yes - I ran into this with mozilla-firefox-bin (which also seems to have broken > > Flash 9) and mplayer-bin a couple of days ago. This morning I ran an emerge -C > > to uninstall all of the packages, re-sync'd my Portage tree, and re-emerged > > everything. Because I'm not in the same physical location as that box, though, > > I can't test it yet. I'll try it tonight after I get home from work, though, > > and post my results. -- -M There are 10 kinds of people in this world: Those who can count in binary and those who cannot. -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-amd64] vmware-player fonts unreadable 2007-03-10 14:36 ` Michael George @ 2007-03-10 14:47 ` Joe Menola 2007-03-10 15:00 ` Michael George 0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: Joe Menola @ 2007-03-10 14:47 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-amd64 On Saturday 10 March 2007 8:36 am, Michael George wrote: > I noticed that my realplayer also has the same problems, so I don't > think it's a vmware-specific issue... > > Hmm... Check your GTK font settings. -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-amd64] vmware-player fonts unreadable 2007-03-10 14:47 ` Joe Menola @ 2007-03-10 15:00 ` Michael George 2007-03-10 15:24 ` Joe Menola 0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: Michael George @ 2007-03-10 15:00 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-amd64 On Sat, Mar 10, 2007 at 08:47:10AM -0600, Joe Menola wrote: > On Saturday 10 March 2007 8:36 am, Michael George wrote: > > I noticed that my realplayer also has the same problems, so I don't > > think it's a vmware-specific issue... > > > > Hmm... > > Check your GTK font settings. Umm... how? I've never messed with them, they've always "just worked"... -- -M There are 10 kinds of people in this world: Those who can count in binary and those who cannot. -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-amd64] vmware-player fonts unreadable 2007-03-10 15:00 ` Michael George @ 2007-03-10 15:24 ` Joe Menola 2007-03-10 15:51 ` Nuitari ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Joe Menola @ 2007-03-10 15:24 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-amd64 On Saturday 10 March 2007 9:00 am, Michael George wrote: > On Sat, Mar 10, 2007 at 08:47:10AM -0600, Joe Menola wrote: > > On Saturday 10 March 2007 8:36 am, Michael George wrote: > > > I noticed that my realplayer also has the same problems, so I don't > > > think it's a vmware-specific issue... > > > > > > Hmm... > > > > Check your GTK font settings. > > Umm... how? I've never messed with them, they've always "just > worked"... I adjust them via kde control center (there was a dedicated package I installed to provide access to GTK settings which I don't recall at this time, sorry) Goggle may be of some help -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-amd64] vmware-player fonts unreadable 2007-03-10 15:24 ` Joe Menola @ 2007-03-10 15:51 ` Nuitari 2007-03-10 18:38 ` Michael George 2007-03-10 18:39 ` Michael George 2 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Nuitari @ 2007-03-10 15:51 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-amd64 > > > > I noticed that my realplayer also has the same problems, so I don't > > > > think it's a vmware-specific issue... > > > > > > > > Hmm... > > > > > > Check your GTK font settings. > > > > Umm... how? =A0I've never messed with them, they've always "just > > worked"... > > I adjust them via kde control center (there was a dedicated package I=20 > installed to provide access to GTK settings which I don't recall at this=20 > time, sorry) > Goggle may be of some help When my mozilla-firefox-bin fonts were messed up it turned out to be the RenderAccel setting in my xorg.conf, though this only applies if you use the binary nvidia drivers. -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-amd64] vmware-player fonts unreadable 2007-03-10 15:24 ` Joe Menola 2007-03-10 15:51 ` Nuitari @ 2007-03-10 18:38 ` Michael George 2007-03-10 18:39 ` Michael George 2 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Michael George @ 2007-03-10 18:38 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-amd64 On Sat, Mar 10, 2007 at 09:24:35AM -0600, Joe Menola wrote: > On Saturday 10 March 2007 9:00 am, Michael George wrote: > > On Sat, Mar 10, 2007 at 08:47:10AM -0600, Joe Menola wrote: > > > On Saturday 10 March 2007 8:36 am, Michael George wrote: > > > > I noticed that my realplayer also has the same problems, so I don't > > > > think it's a vmware-specific issue... > > > > > > > > Hmm... > > > > > > Check your GTK font settings. > > > > Umm... how? ?I've never messed with them, they've always "just > > worked"... > > I adjust them via kde control center (there was a dedicated package I > installed to provide access to GTK settings which I don't recall at this > time, sorry) > Goggle may be of some help If you recall how to get kcontrol to set them, I would appreciate it. I use neither Gnome nor KDE, so I'm not sure where to look to change the settings. It looks like gconftool-2 might do what I need, but it's CLI and I'm not sure what options or paths I should be sending to it. I'm guessing this means that any gtk apps I have are now broken... :( -- -M There are 10 kinds of people in this world: Those who can count in binary and those who cannot. -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-amd64] vmware-player fonts unreadable 2007-03-10 15:24 ` Joe Menola 2007-03-10 15:51 ` Nuitari 2007-03-10 18:38 ` Michael George @ 2007-03-10 18:39 ` Michael George 2007-03-10 18:46 ` Joe Menola 2007-03-10 19:05 ` Richard Freeman 2 siblings, 2 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Michael George @ 2007-03-10 18:39 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-amd64 On Sat, Mar 10, 2007 at 09:24:35AM -0600, Joe Menola wrote: > On Saturday 10 March 2007 9:00 am, Michael George wrote: > > On Sat, Mar 10, 2007 at 08:47:10AM -0600, Joe Menola wrote: > > > On Saturday 10 March 2007 8:36 am, Michael George wrote: > > > > I noticed that my realplayer also has the same problems, so I don't > > > > think it's a vmware-specific issue... > > > > > > > > Hmm... > > > > > > Check your GTK font settings. > > > > Umm... how? ?I've never messed with them, they've always "just > > worked"... > > I adjust them via kde control center (there was a dedicated package I > installed to provide access to GTK settings which I don't recall at this > time, sorry) > Goggle may be of some help BTW, I am googling and not finding anything immediately obvious. I'll keep looking... Perhaps asking on the gentoo-users list might help, too. Thanks for all the advice so far! -- -M There are 10 kinds of people in this world: Those who can count in binary and those who cannot. -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-amd64] vmware-player fonts unreadable 2007-03-10 18:39 ` Michael George @ 2007-03-10 18:46 ` Joe Menola 2007-03-10 19:05 ` Richard Freeman 1 sibling, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Joe Menola @ 2007-03-10 18:46 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-amd64 On Saturday 10 March 2007 12:39 pm, Michael George wrote: > On Sat, Mar 10, 2007 at 09:24:35AM -0600, Joe Menola wrote: > > On Saturday 10 March 2007 9:00 am, Michael George wrote: > > > On Sat, Mar 10, 2007 at 08:47:10AM -0600, Joe Menola wrote: > > > > On Saturday 10 March 2007 8:36 am, Michael George wrote: > > > > > I noticed that my realplayer also has the same problems, so I don't > > > > > think it's a vmware-specific issue... > > > > > > > > > > Hmm... > > > > > > > > Check your GTK font settings. > > > > > > Umm... how? ?I've never messed with them, they've always "just > > > worked"... > > > > I adjust them via kde control center (there was a dedicated package I > > installed to provide access to GTK settings which I don't recall at this > > time, sorry) > > Goggle may be of some help > > BTW, I am googling and not finding anything immediately obvious. I'll > keep looking... > > Perhaps asking on the gentoo-users list might help, too. > > Thanks for all the advice so far! > Perhaps this will help... http://gentoo-wiki.com/HOWTO_Same_look_for_QT,_GTK_2_and_GTK_1_apps -jm -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-amd64] vmware-player fonts unreadable 2007-03-10 18:39 ` Michael George 2007-03-10 18:46 ` Joe Menola @ 2007-03-10 19:05 ` Richard Freeman 2007-03-10 19:29 ` Michael George 1 sibling, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: Richard Freeman @ 2007-03-10 19:05 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-amd64 [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 784 bytes --] -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Michael George wrote: > > BTW, I am googling and not finding anything immediately obvious. I'll > keep looking... > I had a similar problem recently with vmware-server-console - everything went to boxes. It went away when I emerged app-emulation/ emul-linux-x86-gtklibs-10.0-r1. I think the problem was that I emerged all the other v10 emul-linux libs but this one had failed with a symlink problem and I had been putting it off. Once I got the gtklibs upgraded it worked fine. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFF8wF9G4/rWKZmVWkRAqDAAJ0cLrIvoSnjJff+mrD2C9sPH9MBIgCgmmxM i+RuS/ZaSnBxSGEhAnl27ys= =JMPy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- [-- Attachment #2: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature --] [-- Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature, Size: 3875 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-amd64] vmware-player fonts unreadable 2007-03-10 19:05 ` Richard Freeman @ 2007-03-10 19:29 ` Michael George 0 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Michael George @ 2007-03-10 19:29 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-amd64 On Sat, Mar 10, 2007 at 02:05:33PM -0500, Richard Freeman wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Michael George wrote: > > > > BTW, I am googling and not finding anything immediately obvious. I'll > > keep looking... > > I had a similar problem recently with vmware-server-console - everything > went to boxes. It went away when I emerged app-emulation/ > emul-linux-x86-gtklibs-10.0-r1. I think the problem was that I emerged > all the other v10 emul-linux libs but this one had failed with a symlink > problem and I had been putting it off. Once I got the gtklibs upgraded > it worked fine. That was it! I had the qt3 USE flag set in make.conf. Turning that off (leaving qt4) and rebuilding the package made the difference. Thanks a bunch! -- -M There are 10 kinds of people in this world: Those who can count in binary and those who cannot. -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-amd64] vmware-player fonts unreadable 2007-03-08 23:57 [gentoo-amd64] vmware-player fonts unreadable Michael George 2007-03-09 1:36 ` Chris Traylor 2007-03-09 14:50 ` The Doctor @ 2007-03-10 18:56 ` Simon Stelling 2007-03-12 13:18 ` The Doctor 3 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Simon Stelling @ 2007-03-10 18:56 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-amd64 Michael George wrote: > Has anyone else run into this? Is it perhaps the emulation libraries > being a problem? Most certainly. Though for most people experiencing font problems after upgrading the emul-packages, this only lead to "blurry fonts". The problem is that we're distributing a 32bit copy of freetype in emul-linux-x86-xlibs. As it's binary, we have to use USE=bindist to avoid legal problems. Unfortunately that means that some dll-loading code is replaced with some other code, which is why the fonts suddenly look different. https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=167632 As for the solution: You can a) build your own freetype [1] or b) convince me that we won't run into legal problems when distributing a USE=-bindist freetype :) [1] See http://amd64.gentoo.org/emul for some hints -- Kind Regards, Simon Stelling Gentoo/AMD64 -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-amd64] vmware-player fonts unreadable 2007-03-08 23:57 [gentoo-amd64] vmware-player fonts unreadable Michael George ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2007-03-10 18:56 ` Simon Stelling @ 2007-03-12 13:18 ` The Doctor 2007-03-12 16:31 ` Cermelo Woodgett 3 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: The Doctor @ 2007-03-12 13:18 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-amd64 [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 556 bytes --] Michael George wrote: ... > but all the text is just little boxes. Luckily, I remember the > important ones (exit, how to focus and release focus, etc), but I cannot > change any options now. ... Update to this problem: I removed and reinstalled everything with emerge and it fixed the problem. No text glitches with Firefox or GMplayer afterward. -- The Doctor [412/724/301/703] PGP: 0x807B17C1 / 7960 1CDC 85C9 0B63 8D9F DD89 3BD8 FF2B 807B 17C1 WWW: http://drwho.virtadpt.net/ BakerDOS v4.01: Floppy hat support added. [-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 260 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-amd64] vmware-player fonts unreadable 2007-03-12 13:18 ` The Doctor @ 2007-03-12 16:31 ` Cermelo Woodgett 0 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Cermelo Woodgett @ 2007-03-12 16:31 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-amd64 Is that you Josh? On 3/12/07, The Doctor <drwho@virtadpt.net> wrote: > Michael George wrote: > > ... > > but all the text is just little boxes. Luckily, I remember the > > important ones (exit, how to focus and release focus, etc), but I cannot > > change any options now. > ... > > Update to this problem: > > I removed and reinstalled everything with emerge and it fixed the problem. No > text glitches with Firefox or GMplayer afterward. > > -- > > The Doctor [412/724/301/703] > > PGP: 0x807B17C1 / 7960 1CDC 85C9 0B63 8D9F DD89 3BD8 FF2B 807B 17C1 > WWW: http://drwho.virtadpt.net/ > > BakerDOS v4.01: Floppy hat support added. > > > -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2007-03-12 16:34 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 17+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2007-03-08 23:57 [gentoo-amd64] vmware-player fonts unreadable Michael George 2007-03-09 1:36 ` Chris Traylor 2007-03-09 14:50 ` The Doctor 2007-03-10 14:04 ` Michael George 2007-03-10 14:36 ` Michael George 2007-03-10 14:47 ` Joe Menola 2007-03-10 15:00 ` Michael George 2007-03-10 15:24 ` Joe Menola 2007-03-10 15:51 ` Nuitari 2007-03-10 18:38 ` Michael George 2007-03-10 18:39 ` Michael George 2007-03-10 18:46 ` Joe Menola 2007-03-10 19:05 ` Richard Freeman 2007-03-10 19:29 ` Michael George 2007-03-10 18:56 ` Simon Stelling 2007-03-12 13:18 ` The Doctor 2007-03-12 16:31 ` Cermelo Woodgett
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