* [gentoo-amd64] How to install multilib'ed version of any library (for real multilib for x86 and x86_64 for every libraries)? @ 2009-11-14 11:45 Cheng Renquan 2009-11-14 15:16 ` [gentoo-amd64] " Nikos Chantziaras 2009-11-17 14:54 ` [gentoo-amd64] " raxas 0 siblings, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Cheng Renquan @ 2009-11-14 11:45 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-amd64 Hello, gentoo amd64 developers, I found a big problem with gentoo amd64 recently: I'm just switching from x86 to amd64 gentoo, several months ago, everything goes well, but now I have a project that need to compile some 32bit binaries; since my gcc and glibc both have multilib support, originally I don't think it's a problem, just like this hellworld.c program: $ gcc -o hello helloworld.c # will generate a default hello executable, 64bit; $ gcc -m32 -o hello.x86 helloworld.c # specify to generate a 32bit executable So when I want to compile a separate software source, I just setenv CC="gcc -m32" this seems reasonable, but finally it failed with an error, http://pastebin.org/52915 Now I know it's because of this software need 32bit libbfd, while the default 64bit libbfd is provided by sys-devel/binutils, so I need a multilib'ed binutils library, but how do I install a 32bit of libbfd in gentoo way? Furthermore, if compiling any other 32bit program on gentoo-amd64, it may need other more 32bit of libraries, Comparing other linux distros like fedora-x86_64 and debian-amd64, I knew there is simple way to archive this goal, just install both binutils.x86_64 and binutils.i686 packages, but on gentoo-amd64, how can we do this in a similarly simple way? How about add USE multilib support of every package that contains libraries? I have asked this problem on #gentoo-amd64 channel, but seemed no people there knew it, so please someone on the mailing list know how to resolve it? Thanks very much, -- Cheng Renquan (程任全), from Singapore ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* [gentoo-amd64] Re: How to install multilib'ed version of any library (for real multilib for x86 and x86_64 for every libraries)? 2009-11-14 11:45 [gentoo-amd64] How to install multilib'ed version of any library (for real multilib for x86 and x86_64 for every libraries)? Cheng Renquan @ 2009-11-14 15:16 ` Nikos Chantziaras 2009-11-15 10:21 ` Cheng Renquan 2009-11-15 13:25 ` Duncan 2009-11-17 14:54 ` [gentoo-amd64] " raxas 1 sibling, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Nikos Chantziaras @ 2009-11-14 15:16 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-amd64 On 11/14/2009 01:45 PM, Cheng Renquan wrote: >[...] > Furthermore, if compiling any other 32bit program on gentoo-amd64, it may need > other more 32bit of libraries, > > Comparing other linux distros like fedora-x86_64 and debian-amd64, I knew there > is simple way to archive this goal, just install both binutils.x86_64 > and binutils.i686 > packages, but on gentoo-amd64, how can we do this in a similarly simple way? > > How about add USE multilib support of every package that contains libraries? Gentoo doesn't support this yet. Work is underway to enable real multilib support though. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How to install multilib'ed version of any library (for real multilib for x86 and x86_64 for every libraries)? 2009-11-14 15:16 ` [gentoo-amd64] " Nikos Chantziaras @ 2009-11-15 10:21 ` Cheng Renquan 2009-11-15 10:35 ` Justin 2009-11-15 13:25 ` Duncan 1 sibling, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Cheng Renquan @ 2009-11-15 10:21 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-amd64; +Cc: Nikos Chantziaras On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 11:16 PM, Nikos Chantziaras <realnc@arcor.de> wrote: > On 11/14/2009 01:45 PM, Cheng Renquan wrote: >> How about add USE multilib support of every package that contains >> libraries? > > Gentoo doesn't support this yet. Work is underway to enable real multilib > support though. Could you give some more clues? Any links to work been done on this real multilib topic? Maybe I can participate in working it out, I have also made some ebuilds contribution to gentoo, the sunrise overlay, with persistent passion in the hope of becoming a true gentoo developer some day, -- Dennis, Cheng Renquan (程任全), from Singapore ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How to install multilib'ed version of any library (for real multilib for x86 and x86_64 for every libraries)? 2009-11-15 10:21 ` Cheng Renquan @ 2009-11-15 10:35 ` Justin 0 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Justin @ 2009-11-15 10:35 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-amd64 [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1095 bytes --] Cheng Renquan wrote: > On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 11:16 PM, Nikos Chantziaras <realnc@arcor.de> wrote: >> On 11/14/2009 01:45 PM, Cheng Renquan wrote: >>> How about add USE multilib support of every package that contains >>> libraries? >> Gentoo doesn't support this yet. Work is underway to enable real multilib >> support though. > > Could you give some more clues? Any links to work been done on this > real multilib topic? > Maybe I can participate in working it out, > I have also made some ebuilds contribution to gentoo, the sunrise > overlay, with persistent passion in the hope of becoming a true gentoo > developer some day, > As you are from sunrise you know Tommy. He assisting some users creating this overlay: http://wiki.github.com/sjnewbury/multilib-overlay You can ask him and/or join #gentoo-multilib-overlay @ freenode. Here is the official announcement on the dev ml http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/msg_c097f754162fa0432dd0998914df7a30.xml and a tracker bug in b.g.o http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=145737 Cheers justin [-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* [gentoo-amd64] Re: How to install multilib'ed version of any library (for real multilib for x86 and x86_64 for every libraries)? 2009-11-14 15:16 ` [gentoo-amd64] " Nikos Chantziaras 2009-11-15 10:21 ` Cheng Renquan @ 2009-11-15 13:25 ` Duncan 2009-11-15 14:48 ` Nikos Chantziaras 1 sibling, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Duncan @ 2009-11-15 13:25 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-amd64 Nikos Chantziaras posted on Sat, 14 Nov 2009 17:16:35 +0200 as excerpted: > On 11/14/2009 01:45 PM, Cheng Renquan wrote: >>[...] >> Furthermore, if compiling any other 32bit program on gentoo-amd64, it >> may need other more 32bit of libraries, >> >> Comparing other linux distros like fedora-x86_64 and debian-amd64, I >> knew there is simple way to archive this goal, just install both >> binutils.x86_64 and binutils.i686 >> packages, but on gentoo-amd64, how can we do this in a similarly simple >> way? >> >> How about add USE multilib support of every package that contains >> libraries? > > Gentoo doesn't support this yet. Work is underway to enable real > multilib support though. Nikos is correct... as far as he goes, but there are actually ways around it that he didn't describe. First, for a limited subset of libraries, there are pre-compiled x86_32 compatibility versions available. This is the "fast" solution, workable for most mainstream stuff, but in addition to being limited to the mainstream libraries, it isn't really gentoo-like in some ways as the binaries are all precompiled, and for all the reasons that people choose Gentoo, that's just not really satisfying to many Gentooers. Never-the- less, it suffices for many apps and most 32-bit games. The operative hint you need here is app-emulation/emul-linux-x86-*. Those packages are the various more-or-less mainstream pre-compiled x86_32 libraries. FWIW, there's a limited number of executables, as well, normally with the -bin suffix. mozilla-firefox-bin is one example. These aren't as popular (some would say necessary) as they once were, as there are now various 64-bit binary plugins for stuff such as flash, but for quite some time 64-bit was out in the cold in that regard, so if you chose to run proprietary-ware at all, you generally found the 32-bit versions helpful as they'd run the proprietary 32-bit-only plugins and codecs, etc. The far less limited (virtually unlimited) and perhaps more Gentoo-ish but also MUCH more complicated and MUCH more work second alternative is to run a 32-bit chroot. The problem is that at this point, none of the package managers (at least not portage, and I don't believe paludis or pkgcore have the feature either) can properly track multiple ABI/bitness versions of the same package. Thus, for amd64, the package manager assumes all the packages are 64-bit, and if you were to merge one as 32- bit, it would replace the 64-bit version of the same package. The way around this is the 32-bit chroot. The idea, basically, is to setup a second instance of Gentoo in a chroot, so the portage (or other PM) running there doesn't know about the main 64-bit system, and the 64- bit system for the most part ignores the 32-bit chroot because it's not in its way. You mount-bind a few subtrees, typically /tmp, often /home, a couple others (I was going to use etc, instead of "a couple others", but then realized that was ambiguous, NOT /etc!), into the chroot, so they're seen by both systems, start from a normal x86 stage tarball, and with some notable exceptions, basically, install an almost complete 32-bit system in the chroot. In theory, you can skip many of the services, syslog, cron, etc, because the main system provides them for both. In fact, since you have a nearly complete 32-bit system anyway, in many cases it's worth it to just do the whole thing (but maybe without the full X, kde/gnome, whatever, or maybe with it, depending on your goals for the respective sides), and then be able to dual boot to one or the other as desired. There's more documentation, including a nice Gentoo/AMD64 32-bit chroot guide, available. See the documentation section at the Gentoo/AMD64 project page. As you're asking about this, you probably haven't read the FAQ yet, so I'd start with that. You're likely to find a few of your other questions answered there. If after that (and reading the above) you're interested in the 32-bit chroot idea, you can read the 32-bit chroot guide and then decide if it's worth it or if you want to try the emul-linux-x86 stuff first. Here's the Gentoo/AMD64 project page link. Again, check the documentation section. http://amd64.gentoo.org One more possibility. If you only have one or two libraries you need that aren't available as precompiled binaries in the emul-* packages, once you have the 32-bit dependencies installed, you may well be able to compile them manually, outside portage, using -m32. However, once you get more than a couple to worry about, the complexity of trying to handle all the dependencies manually increases more or less geometrically proportional to the number of packages you're trying to handle, so it very quickly becomes easier to simply do the chroot and let portage's automation handle it. YMMV. Finally, a bit more detail on what Nikos hinted at. There's a couple of experimental projects whereby portage is modified to be able to handle multiple ABI installations in parallel. As a matter of practice, I don't know if they'll ever get merged, because we've gone this long without it, and as I mentioned, the worst need was along about 2006 or so, when a lot of folks had switched already but Flash and etc weren't yet available for 64-bit, and even mainstream FLOSS apps like Open Office hadn't been ported. Since pretty much everything mainstream FLOSS has been ported now, and the proprietaryware folks are coming around to 64-bit as well, there's far less need for multilib in general than there used to be, and the need/demand will be ever weaker with time. If Gentoo/AMD64 got along this long without it, and since we're well past the hump, now, there's little real practical reason to worry about it -- for Gentoo/AMD64, at least. But of course there's other archs it would benefit as well, some of which have more than two variants, and at least for the devs and arch- testers, it could be very useful to be able to be able to install, test and otherwise work on multiple bitnesses at once. But AMD64 was the big one, and the others too have gone this long without it. So really, what it comes down to is whether enough devs prioritize it high enough to continue pushing it until it's not only working well, but until the other devs accept it as worth the hassle, an it becomes a part of portage (and/ or the other PMs) and Gentoo in general. Yes, there's a couple devs working on it, but whether their pet project will remain of /enough/ interest to them for long enough to be worth pushing into mainline Gentoo, is anyone's guess. -- Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. "Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* [gentoo-amd64] Re: How to install multilib'ed version of any library (for real multilib for x86 and x86_64 for every libraries)? 2009-11-15 13:25 ` Duncan @ 2009-11-15 14:48 ` Nikos Chantziaras 2009-11-15 16:13 ` Volker Armin Hemmann 0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Nikos Chantziaras @ 2009-11-15 14:48 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-amd64 On 11/15/2009 03:25 PM, Duncan wrote: > There's a couple of experimental projects whereby portage is modified > to be able to handle multiple ABI installations in parallel. As a > matter of practice, I don't know if they'll ever get merged, because > we've gone this long without it, and as I mentioned, the worst need > was along about 2006 or so, when a lot of folks had switched already > but Flash and etc weren't yet available for 64-bit, and even > mainstream FLOSS apps like Open Office hadn't been ported. Since > pretty much everything mainstream FLOSS has been ported now, and the > proprietaryware folks are coming around to 64-bit as well, there's > far less need for multilib in general than there used to be, and the > need/demand will be ever weaker with time. Multilib is still very useful. 64-bit Firefox is slow as molasses currently (it uses the legacy javascript engine), and every 32-bit app that uses Qt or Gtk looks extremely ugly due to missing 32-bit Qt/Gtk styles. Wine will never be 64-bit and it needs libraries not available in emul packages. Also, lets not forget that many people would prefer a 32-bit userland running on a 64-bit kernel. Bottom line, multilib will be needed (and useful) for many years to come. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How to install multilib'ed version of any library (for real multilib for x86 and x86_64 for every libraries)? 2009-11-15 14:48 ` Nikos Chantziaras @ 2009-11-15 16:13 ` Volker Armin Hemmann 2009-11-15 17:06 ` Nikos Chantziaras 0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Volker Armin Hemmann @ 2009-11-15 16:13 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-amd64 On Sonntag 15 November 2009, Nikos Chantziaras wrote: > Wine will never be 64-bit and it needs libraries not available > in emul packages. oh reaaaally? win64 (app-emulation/wine): Build a 64bit version of Wine (won't run Win32 binaries) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* [gentoo-amd64] Re: How to install multilib'ed version of any library (for real multilib for x86 and x86_64 for every libraries)? 2009-11-15 16:13 ` Volker Armin Hemmann @ 2009-11-15 17:06 ` Nikos Chantziaras 0 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Nikos Chantziaras @ 2009-11-15 17:06 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-amd64 On 11/15/2009 06:13 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: > On Sonntag 15 November 2009, Nikos Chantziaras wrote: >> Wine will never be 64-bit and it needs libraries not available >> in emul packages. > > oh reaaaally? > > win64 (app-emulation/wine): > Build a 64bit version of Wine (won't run Win32 binaries) Yarly. It says right there "won't run Win32 binaries", which is what I meant in the first place :P ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-amd64] How to install multilib'ed version of any library (for real multilib for x86 and x86_64 for every libraries)? 2009-11-14 11:45 [gentoo-amd64] How to install multilib'ed version of any library (for real multilib for x86 and x86_64 for every libraries)? Cheng Renquan 2009-11-14 15:16 ` [gentoo-amd64] " Nikos Chantziaras @ 2009-11-17 14:54 ` raxas 2009-11-29 18:14 ` Cheng Renquan 1 sibling, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: raxas @ 2009-11-17 14:54 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-amd64 On Saturday 14 November 2009 12:45:28 Cheng Renquan wrote: > Furthermore, if compiling any other 32bit program on gentoo-amd64, it may > need other more 32bit of libraries, You can use a chroot wrapped with linux32 (sys-apps/util-linux) to build a secondary complete 32bit gentoo installation inside your 64bit box, which is something I do prefere because it prevents many nasty interferences between 64 and 32 bit toolchains and libraries or broken platform detection in packages themselves. see: http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/amd64/howtos/index.xml?part=1&chap=2 raxas ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-amd64] How to install multilib'ed version of any library (for real multilib for x86 and x86_64 for every libraries)? 2009-11-17 14:54 ` [gentoo-amd64] " raxas @ 2009-11-29 18:14 ` Cheng Renquan 2009-11-29 20:20 ` Homer Parker ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Cheng Renquan @ 2009-11-29 18:14 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-amd64; +Cc: raxas On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 10:54 PM, raxas <raxas@pavouk-v-rohu.net> wrote: >> Furthermore, if compiling any other 32bit program on gentoo-amd64, it may >> need other more 32bit of libraries, > > You can use a chroot wrapped with linux32 (sys-apps/util-linux) to build a [...] Thank you, I know this approach already, but it will duplicate all static files like etc, share, doc, man, var, ... wasting space; Just a simple problem: 1) if other linux distros can achieve, why gentoo not? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-amd64] How to install multilib'ed version of any library (for real multilib for x86 and x86_64 for every libraries)? 2009-11-29 18:14 ` Cheng Renquan @ 2009-11-29 20:20 ` Homer Parker 2009-11-29 20:52 ` Barry Schwartz 2009-11-29 23:51 ` [gentoo-amd64] " Nikos Chantziaras 2 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Homer Parker @ 2009-11-29 20:20 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-amd64 On Mon, 2009-11-30 at 02:14 +0800, Cheng Renquan wrote: > On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 10:54 PM, raxas <raxas@pavouk-v-rohu.net> wrote: > >> Furthermore, if compiling any other 32bit program on gentoo-amd64, it may > >> need other more 32bit of libraries, > > > > You can use a chroot wrapped with linux32 (sys-apps/util-linux) to build a > [...] > Thank you, I know this approach already, but it will duplicate all > static files like etc, share, doc, man, var, ... wasting space; bind mount /etc and /var to the chroot (*If* everything is compatible), use FEATUES="nodoc,noman,etc" in the make.conf in the chroot. > Just a simple problem: > 1) if other linux distros can achieve, why gentoo not? Simple answer, how many of them are installed from source? There is work being done on true multilib support in gentoo, /join #gentoo-multilib (or something named that obvious, I'm on a junk internet connection atm and not sure this reply will make it out today :P ) -- Homer Parker <hparker@gentoo.org> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-amd64] How to install multilib'ed version of any library (for real multilib for x86 and x86_64 for every libraries)? 2009-11-29 18:14 ` Cheng Renquan 2009-11-29 20:20 ` Homer Parker @ 2009-11-29 20:52 ` Barry Schwartz 2009-11-29 23:51 ` [gentoo-amd64] " Nikos Chantziaras 2 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Barry Schwartz @ 2009-11-29 20:52 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-amd64; +Cc: raxas Cheng Renquan <crquan@gmail.com> skribis: > Just a simple problem: > 1) if other linux distros can achieve, why gentoo not? This is a question worth thinking about, and here is my hypothesis, based on my own way of thinking: Gentoo users tend to be people who like to build their programs from sources, and programs built from sources usually can be converted to run in 64-bit; so we are more likely to help convert programs to 64-bit than to work on making Gentoo multilib fit the standard. Also multilib builds would take significantly longer, which doesn't matter at all to users of most other distros, but it does to Gentoo users. For reasons like these, I myself never have been forceful about multilib. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* [gentoo-amd64] Re: How to install multilib'ed version of any library (for real multilib for x86 and x86_64 for every libraries)? 2009-11-29 18:14 ` Cheng Renquan 2009-11-29 20:20 ` Homer Parker 2009-11-29 20:52 ` Barry Schwartz @ 2009-11-29 23:51 ` Nikos Chantziaras 2 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Nikos Chantziaras @ 2009-11-29 23:51 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-amd64 On 11/29/2009 08:14 PM, Cheng Renquan wrote: > Just a simple problem: > 1) if other linux distros can achieve, why gentoo not? Gentoo *does* provide a way to have full multilib support like in other distros; the "emul-linux-x86-*" binary packages. However, only some popular and commonly needed packages are provided. Since Gentoo source based, the approach to multilib taken by other distros doesn't fit well and Gentoo needs to come up with its own way of doing multilib. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2009-11-30 0:01 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 13+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2009-11-14 11:45 [gentoo-amd64] How to install multilib'ed version of any library (for real multilib for x86 and x86_64 for every libraries)? Cheng Renquan 2009-11-14 15:16 ` [gentoo-amd64] " Nikos Chantziaras 2009-11-15 10:21 ` Cheng Renquan 2009-11-15 10:35 ` Justin 2009-11-15 13:25 ` Duncan 2009-11-15 14:48 ` Nikos Chantziaras 2009-11-15 16:13 ` Volker Armin Hemmann 2009-11-15 17:06 ` Nikos Chantziaras 2009-11-17 14:54 ` [gentoo-amd64] " raxas 2009-11-29 18:14 ` Cheng Renquan 2009-11-29 20:20 ` Homer Parker 2009-11-29 20:52 ` Barry Schwartz 2009-11-29 23:51 ` [gentoo-amd64] " Nikos Chantziaras
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