From: Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com>
To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] New hard drive. Is this normal? It looks like a connect problem.
Date: Mon, 12 May 2025 03:11:54 -0500 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <cc6ccd90-2e2f-e9dc-74b1-7a2c04807a56@gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <6750347.G0QQBjFxQf@rogueboard>
Michael wrote:
> On Saturday, 10 May 2025 16:53:55 British Summer Time Dale wrote:
>> Dale wrote:
>>> I didn't know about that until now. I already shutdown my old rig.
>>> Might try that later. It may shed some light on this mess.
>>>
>>> I did send a email to the seller tho. They sell a LOT of drives. I've
>>> seen them show a stock of over 200 drives of a particular model and a
>>> day or so later, sold out. They sell new, a few kinds of used as well.
>>> I tend to buy used but most of the time, the number of power on hours is
>>> in the single digits. The recent drives show 2 hours each. I think if
>>> it is a problem, they will know since they test a lot of drives. Maybe
>>> it is normal but if not, I'm sure they will agree to swap or refund.
>>> They sold out of the 20TB drives shortly after I ordered mine. They
>>> started with right at 200 and sold out in like 2 or 3 days.
>>>
>>> I figure I'll hear back shortly. They been pretty fast to respond to
>>> questions in the past.
>>>
>>> Dale
>>>
>>> :-) :-)
>> I got a response. This is what they said.
>>
>>> Thank you for bringing this to our attention. As long as we're not
>>> seeing any I/O errors that would inhibit your ability to use the
>>> drive, everything should be fine.
>>>
>>> This type of link speed negotiation issue can occur with helium-filled
>>> drives, as their spin-up time tends to be slightly longer than that of
>>> traditional drives. Is your system or HBA a bit on the older side?
>>> Most modern toolsets and software account for this extended spin-up
>>> time by allowing a longer delay before attempting speed negotiation,
>>> which typically avoids this issue altogether.
>>>
>>> In summary, this isn't unprecedented behavior when working with older
>>> hardware or software, but at this stage, it doesn’t point to any major
>>> functional problem. I hope this information helps.
>> As I mentioned, it passed all the SMART tests.
> What do you get for the smart attribute with ID 22?
>
> https://www.backblaze.com/blog/smart-22-is-a-gas-gas-gas/
>
> Although others report ID 16 as the "Current Helium Level", or "Internal
> Environmental Status" attribute. The ID number and Attribute description
> depends on the drive firmware.
>
>
>> I'm not sure on the
>> 3GB/sec connection yet tho. I'm pretty sure that mobo is capable of
>> 6GBs/sec tho. When I put it in my main rig, I'll know for sure.
> Slow spin-up or not, if it is not performing at 6Gbps as advertised when
> connected to a SATA 3 bus, then it is not fit for purpose - assuming transfer
> speeds are a consideration for you and you don't want to let this slip.
>
>
>> What are your thoughts on what they say? It make sense to anyone who
>> knows more about hard drives than me? Now if they can just find that
>> last drive I ordered that is several days late.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Dale
>>
>> :-) :-)
> My knowledge of drives is quite limited and my working knowledge of large
> Helium filled drives is a fat zero. Despite this, here's some random thoughts
> - should you wish to read further:
>
> I have read drives which have seen continuous service in large datacenters and
> crypto-mining farms for a couple of years are decommissioned, tested, reset to
> zero and sold cheaper as 'refurbished'. If you keep an eye on Amazon and
> other large retailers and you notice large batches of refurbished drives
> suddenly show up sold at cut prices, then this is in all likelihood their
> origin and explains the low prices. When you check the perturbations in
> supply you'll notice some makes, models and sizes of drives arrive rather
> prematurely compared to their age in the refurbished drives marketplace and
> this is an indication of early failure rates higher than the big datacenters
> were wishing to see. It doesn't necessarily make all of these drives bad, but
> it is something to bear in mind when you check how much warranty they are
> being sold with after they are labelled as 'refurbished', compared to the
> original OEM warranty when new.
>
> Regarding Helium sealed drives, they are reported to have a slightly lower
> average failure rate than conventional drives. Helium having a lower density
> than air and not smelling anywhere as bad as methane ;-) is used to reduce
> aerodynamic drag of the moving parts within the drive. The idea being such
> drives will consume less energy to run, with less windage the platters vibrate
> less and therefore they can be packed tighter, they will run cooler and at
> least theoretically will last longer.
>
> The laser welding techniques to seal the helium in the drive casing and keep
> denser air out is meant to ensure the 5 year warranty these drives are sold
> with when new. In practice, any light weight small molecule gas can leak and
> in this case the drive will lose its Helium content - and soon fail smart
> tests. As it loses Helium at some point it will start to draw more energy to
> operate in a higher drag environment. Since any SATA controller power
> threshold is not unlimited, the increased drag will cause a slower spin-up
> than when it was new.
>
> I'm not saying your drive is failing, but the slow spin-up argument *because*
> ... Helium, could be somewhat moot. Modelling studies have shown ceteris
> paribus a Helium filled drive will spin *faster* and remain cooler than an air
> filled drive:
>
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/225162945_Thermal_analysis_of_helium-filled_enterprise_disk_drive
>
> You can check if smartctl output shows a different Spin-Up Time value against
> other drives - if this Attribute is reported at all. The Average Latency of
> your 20TB Helium filled drive is reported in its data sheet as 4.16ms - the
> same as 16TB, 14TB, 12TB non-Helium Ironwolf Pro drives. This indicates the
> time for an I/O request to be completed, not necessarily a spin-up performance
> alone, but why should your 20TB be slower to spin up? I don't know. :-/
>
> Anyway, these are a lay person's comments. A drive engineer will know exactly
> what's what with this technology and its performance variations. A chat with
> Seagate's support may get you closer to the truth and explain why the 16TB
> drive spins up nicely while the 20TB drags its feet.
>
> HTH,
OK. My old 8TB SMR drive seems to be having . . . issues. Luckily I
bought two 16TB drives and a 20TB, topic of this thread. So I got a
spare drive. Anyway, I finally got some time to hook this 20TB drive
back up to my main rig with a external enclosure that I know works at
full speed. Other drives do. I recall you mentioning using hdparm -I.
Here is the output of that.
root@Gentoo-1 / # hdparm -I /dev/sdb
/dev/sdb:
ATA device, with non-removable media
Model Number: ST20000NM007D-3DJ103
Serial Number: :-D :-D :-D
Firmware Revision: SN05
Transport: Serial, ATA8-AST, SATA 1.0a, SATA II
Extensions, SATA Rev 2.5, SATA Rev 2.6, SATA Rev 3.0
Standards:
Used: unknown (minor revision code 0xffff)
Supported: 11 10 9 8 7 6 5
Likely used: 11
Configuration:
Logical max current
cylinders 16383 16383
heads 16 16
sectors/track 63 63
--
CHS current addressable sectors: 16514064
LBA user addressable sectors: 268435455
LBA48 user addressable sectors: 39063650304
Logical Sector size: 512 bytes [ Supported:
512 4096 ]
Physical Sector size: 4096 bytes
Logical Sector-0 offset: 0 bytes
device size with M = 1024*1024: 19074048 MBytes
device size with M = 1000*1000: 20000588 MBytes (20000 GB)
cache/buffer size = unknown
Form Factor: 3.5 inch
Nominal Media Rotation Rate: 7200
Capabilities:
LBA, IORDY(can be disabled)
Queue depth: 32
Standby timer values: spec'd by Standard, no device specific minimum
R/W multiple sector transfer: Max = 16 Current = 16
Recommended acoustic management value: 254, current value: 0
DMA: mdma0 mdma1 mdma2 udma0 udma1 udma2 udma3 udma4 udma5 *udma6
Cycle time: min=120ns recommended=120ns
PIO: pio0 pio1 pio2 pio3 pio4
Cycle time: no flow control=120ns IORDY flow control=120ns
Commands/features:
Enabled Supported:
* SMART feature set
Security Mode feature set
* Power Management feature set
* Write cache
* Look-ahead
* WRITE_BUFFER command
* READ_BUFFER command
* DOWNLOAD_MICROCODE
Power-Up In Standby feature set
* SET_FEATURES required to spinup after power up
SET_MAX security extension
* 48-bit Address feature set
* Mandatory FLUSH_CACHE
* FLUSH_CACHE_EXT
* SMART error logging
* SMART self-test
* Media Card Pass-Through
* General Purpose Logging feature set
* WRITE_{DMA|MULTIPLE}_FUA_EXT
* 64-bit World wide name
* IDLE_IMMEDIATE with UNLOAD
Write-Read-Verify feature set
* WRITE_UNCORRECTABLE_EXT command
* {READ,WRITE}_DMA_EXT_GPL commands
* Segmented DOWNLOAD_MICROCODE
* unknown 119[6]
* unknown 119[7]
unknown 119[8]
unknown 119[9]
* Gen1 signaling speed (1.5Gb/s)
* Gen2 signaling speed (3.0Gb/s)
* Gen3 signaling speed (6.0Gb/s)
* Native Command Queueing (NCQ)
* Phy event counters
* Idle-Unload when NCQ is active
* READ_LOG_DMA_EXT equivalent to READ_LOG_EXT
* DMA Setup Auto-Activate optimization
Device-initiated interface power management
* Software settings preservation
unknown 78[7]
* SMART Command Transport (SCT) feature set
* SCT Write Same (AC2)
* SCT Error Recovery Control (AC3)
* SCT Features Control (AC4)
* SCT Data Tables (AC5)
unknown 206[7]
unknown 206[12] (vendor specific)
unknown 206[13] (vendor specific)
unknown 206[14] (vendor specific)
* SANITIZE_ANTIFREEZE_LOCK_EXT command
* SANITIZE feature set
* OVERWRITE_EXT command
* All write cache is non-volatile
* Extended number of user addressable sectors
Security:
Master password revision code = 65534
supported
not enabled
not locked
not frozen
not expired: security count
supported: enhanced erase
1716min for SECURITY ERASE UNIT. 1716min for ENHANCED SECURITY
ERASE UNIT.
Logical Unit WWN Device Identifier: 5000c500e59b0554
NAA : 5
IEEE OUI : 000c50
Unique ID : 0e59b0554
Checksum: correct
root@Gentoo-1 / #
If I recall correctly, udma6 is the fastest speed. So, in the end the
drive should be connected at 6GB/sec. Right? Also, do you see anything
else in there that would concern you? I'm also going to include the
output of smartctl -a for it as well.
root@Gentoo-1 / # smartctl -a /dev/sdb
smartctl 7.4 2023-08-01 r5530 [x86_64-linux-6.9.10-gentoo] (local build)
Copyright (C) 2002-23, Bruce Allen, Christian Franke, www.smartmontools.org
=== START OF INFORMATION SECTION ===
Model Family: Seagate Exos X20
Device Model: ST20000NM007D-3DJ103
Serial Number: :-D :-D :-D
LU WWN Device Id: 5 000c50 0e59b0554
Firmware Version: SN05
User Capacity: 20,000,588,955,648 bytes [20.0 TB]
Sector Sizes: 512 bytes logical, 4096 bytes physical
Rotation Rate: 7200 rpm
Form Factor: 3.5 inches
Device is: In smartctl database 7.3/5671
ATA Version is: ACS-4 (minor revision not indicated)
SATA Version is: SATA 3.3, 6.0 Gb/s (current: 6.0 Gb/s)
Local Time is: Mon May 12 03:05:08 2025 CDT
SMART support is: Available - device has SMART capability.
SMART support is: Enabled
=== START OF READ SMART DATA SECTION ===
SMART overall-health self-assessment test result: PASSED
General SMART Values:
Offline data collection status: (0x82) Offline data collection activity
was completed without error.
Auto Offline Data Collection:
Enabled.
Self-test execution status: ( 0) The previous self-test routine
completed
without error or no self-test
has ever
been run.
Total time to complete Offline
data collection: ( 567) seconds.
Offline data collection
capabilities: (0x7b) SMART execute Offline immediate.
Auto Offline data collection
on/off support.
Suspend Offline collection upon new
command.
Offline surface scan supported.
Self-test supported.
Conveyance Self-test supported.
Selective Self-test supported.
SMART capabilities: (0x0003) Saves SMART data before entering
power-saving mode.
Supports SMART auto save timer.
Error logging capability: (0x01) Error logging supported.
General Purpose Logging supported.
Short self-test routine
recommended polling time: ( 1) minutes.
Extended self-test routine
recommended polling time: (1714) minutes.
Conveyance self-test routine
recommended polling time: ( 2) minutes.
SCT capabilities: (0x70bd) SCT Status supported.
SCT Error Recovery Control
supported.
SCT Feature Control supported.
SCT Data Table supported.
SMART Attributes Data Structure revision number: 10
Vendor Specific SMART Attributes with Thresholds:
ID# ATTRIBUTE_NAME FLAG VALUE WORST THRESH TYPE
UPDATED WHEN_FAILED RAW_VALUE
1 Raw_Read_Error_Rate 0x000f 083 079 044 Pre-fail
Always - 0/223644630
3 Spin_Up_Time 0x0003 091 091 000 Pre-fail
Always - 0
4 Start_Stop_Count 0x0032 100 100 020 Old_age
Always - 12
5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct 0x0033 100 100 010 Pre-fail
Always - 0
7 Seek_Error_Rate 0x000f 071 060 045 Pre-fail
Always - 0/12784911
9 Power_On_Hours 0x0032 100 100 000 Old_age
Always - 36
10 Spin_Retry_Count 0x0013 100 100 097 Pre-fail
Always - 0
12 Power_Cycle_Count 0x0032 100 100 020 Old_age
Always - 12
18 Head_Health 0x000b 100 100 050 Pre-fail
Always - 0
187 Reported_Uncorrect 0x0032 100 100 000 Old_age
Always - 0
188 Command_Timeout 0x0032 100 100 000 Old_age
Always - 0 0 0
190 Airflow_Temperature_Cel 0x0022 071 049 000 Old_age
Always - 29 (Min/Max 24/29)
192 Power-Off_Retract_Count 0x0032 100 100 000 Old_age
Always - 5
193 Load_Cycle_Count 0x0032 100 100 000 Old_age
Always - 13
194 Temperature_Celsius 0x0022 029 048 000 Old_age
Always - 29 (0 22 0 0 0)
197 Current_Pending_Sector 0x0012 100 100 000 Old_age
Always - 0
198 Offline_Uncorrectable 0x0010 100 100 000 Old_age
Offline - 0
199 UDMA_CRC_Error_Count 0x003e 200 200 000 Old_age
Always - 15
200 Pressure_Limit 0x0023 100 100 001 Pre-fail
Always - 0
240 Head_Flying_Hours 0x0000 100 100 000 Old_age
Offline - 35h+57m+09.784s
241 Total_LBAs_Written 0x0000 100 253 000 Old_age
Offline - 46594603
242 Total_LBAs_Read 0x0000 100 253 000 Old_age
Offline - 3602490543
SMART Error Log Version: 1
No Errors Logged
SMART Self-test log structure revision number 1
Num Test_Description Status Remaining
LifeTime(hours) LBA_of_first_error
# 1 Extended offline Completed without error 00%
28 -
# 2 Short offline Completed without error 00%
2 -
# 3 Conveyance offline Completed without error 00%
2 -
# 4 Short offline Completed without error 00%
0 -
# 5 Short offline Completed without error 00%
0 -
# 6 Short offline Completed without error 00%
0 -
# 7 Short offline Completed without error 00%
0 -
SMART Selective self-test log data structure revision number 1
SPAN MIN_LBA MAX_LBA CURRENT_TEST_STATUS
1 0 0 Not_testing
2 0 0 Not_testing
3 0 0 Not_testing
4 0 0 Not_testing
5 0 0 Not_testing
Selective self-test flags (0x0):
After scanning selected spans, do NOT read-scan remainder of disk.
If Selective self-test is pending on power-up, resume after 0 minute delay.
The above only provides legacy SMART information - try 'smartctl -x' for
more
root@Gentoo-1 / #
I'm thinking about adding this to my backup drive set. With this
addition, I can have one backup for all my videos instead of breaking it
into two pieces.
Any concerns with the data you see? Would you be OK using this drive?
Bad thing is, if not, they sold out of this drive right now. Might
could get a refund but nothing to swap with unless I'm willing to wait
until they get more in.
Dale
:-) :-)
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2025-05-12 8:13 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 28+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2025-05-05 21:15 [gentoo-user] New hard drive. Is this normal? It looks like a connect problem Dale
2025-05-06 12:12 ` Michael
2025-05-06 12:59 ` Dale
2025-05-06 14:31 ` Michael
2025-05-06 20:51 ` Dale
2025-05-06 23:08 ` Wol
2025-05-07 0:16 ` Dale
2025-05-06 23:30 ` Dale
2025-05-07 8:18 ` Michael
2025-05-07 15:13 ` Dale
2025-05-10 15:53 ` Dale
2025-05-10 18:52 ` Michael
2025-05-12 8:11 ` Dale [this message]
2025-05-12 11:14 ` Michael
2025-05-13 6:30 ` Dale
2025-05-12 22:34 ` Frank Steinmetzger
2025-05-13 6:05 ` Dale
2025-05-13 8:30 ` Michael
2025-05-30 13:46 ` Frank Steinmetzger
2025-05-30 1:25 ` Dale
2025-05-30 10:56 ` Michael
2025-05-30 13:47 ` Frank Steinmetzger
2025-05-30 15:10 ` Michael
2025-05-30 21:06 ` Dale
2025-05-31 8:21 ` Michael
2025-06-01 2:51 ` Dale
2025-06-01 11:02 ` Frank Steinmetzger
2025-06-01 12:20 ` Dale
Reply instructions:
You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:
* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
and reply-to-all from there: mbox
Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style
* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
switches of git-send-email(1):
git send-email \
--in-reply-to=cc6ccd90-2e2f-e9dc-74b1-7a2c04807a56@gmail.com \
--to=rdalek1967@gmail.com \
--cc=gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org \
/path/to/YOUR_REPLY
https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html
* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line
before the message body.
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox