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From: Andrew Ammerlaan <andrewammerlaan@gentoo.org>
To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org
Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] last rites: sys-fs/eudev
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 09:55:37 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <6e35ba9b-a55b-4b36-9d79-96faa5fb1dc6@gentoo.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <5aa46e8fd2c09e8d54c6a9ec71725529.squirrel@ukinbox.ecrypt.net>

On 12/09/2023 23:23, Eddie Chapman wrote:
> Andrew Ammerlaan wrote:
>>
>> On 12 September 2023 21:47:31 CEST, Eddie Chapman <eddie@ehuk.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> * You don't gain anything from using it instead of udev.
>>>> (Nobody does.)
>>>>
>>> Is there only 1 tool for the job? Why do we have both the OpenIPMI and
>>> ipmitool projects, both curl and wget, chrome and firefox. Wouldn't it
>>> be better if we just choose one of each of those pairs and concentrate
>>> on it?
>>>>
>>>> So why should anyone put up the effort to package it?
>>>
>>> Same question for the above choices and plenty of other examples.
>>>
>>> What's wrong with having an alternative purely for competition?
>>
>> Having options is only valuable if the different options actually bring
>> something to the table. Choice for the sake of choice is just a waste of
>> time and effort. Firefox is clearly different then Chrome, each comes
>> with its own advantages and disadvantages, and based on this a user can
>> make an educated choice. What I have not yet read in any message in this
>> long thread, is **why** one would want to use eudev, what are its
>> advantages? Why not use sys-apps/systemd-utils[udev]?
> 
> You really are on a slippery slope if you're going to insist that someone
> "ought" to use a certain software, that there is no advantage in using an
> alternative and therefore you shouldn't. Also, people choose alternatives
> for entirely non-technical reasons which are valid. These might be
> political, license, or they just like the author or community of one
> project better than another. Microsoft Office is probably a better office
> suite technically and feature-wise than Libreoffice, yet many people use
> Libreoffice instead. That doesn't mean Libreoffice users are "just plain
> wrong".  Why do we have so many Linux distributions if they all offer
> largely the same set of software? Why use Ubuntu over Debian or vice
> versa? What's the point of openrc? Which is better GCC or Clang/LLVM?

This is a misrepresentation of my point. I never said that any rationale 
for choosing one piece of software over another must be purely 
technical. A license, political issue or whatever may be a legitimate 
advantage that one option has over another. I'm simply stating that no 
one has explicitly provided any rational for choosing eudev over 
systemd-utils[udev].

 From the lack of response to my original question I can only conclude 
that the only reason to choose eudev over systemd-utils[udev] is because 
the latter package has "systemd" in the name (the horror!). If that is 
truly the case it would be a lot simpler to rename 
sys-apps/systemd-utils to 
sys-apps/utilities-from-the-init-system-that-must-not-be-named, then to 
continue to maintain eudev.

>> You are free to spend your time and effort on whatever you wish, maintain
>> eudev as proxy or in some overlay, but don't expect others to put in
>> their time and effort if you can't convince them the extra choice has
>> value and is therefore worth their time and effort.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Andrew
> 
> Why would you think that by having an alternative in tree it means that
> everyone else is then forced into doing work that they don't want to and
> it will inconvenience everyone?  What if someone came along now and said
> they were willing to "step up" and maintain eudev and they were suitably
> qualified? Is that really going to force everyone else to modify their
> ways?
> 

If someone were to step up and say they are willing to spend their time 
and effort maintaining eudev and fixing the open issues then sure we can 
keep it, I never said otherwise. However this package has been 
maintainer-needed for quite a long time now and no one has stepped up, 
at some point someone has to pull the plug.

My point (which again you misrepresented) is that if you can't provided 
a solid reason for choosing eudev over systemd-utils[udev] you are going 
to have a very hard time convincing others to put in their time and 
effort maintaining it, no matter how loudly you complain on the mailing 
list. So either maintain it yourself in some overlay, or provide some 
solid and convincing argumentation in favor of eudev. And as I already 
pointed out above "choice for the sake of choice" is not a convincing 
argument.

And then another thing, how is it possible that so many people missed 
the news item? They are displayed quite prominently I think, and emerge 
will keep buggering you about it until it is marked as read. Just 
wondering if there is something that can be improved here.

Best regards,
Andrew







  parent reply	other threads:[~2023-09-13  7:55 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 121+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2023-09-11 15:14 [gentoo-dev] last rites: sys-fs/eudev Andreas K. Huettel
2023-09-11 15:22 ` orbea
2023-09-11 15:29   ` Andreas K. Huettel
2023-09-11 15:42     ` orbea
2023-09-11 17:25       ` martin-kokos
2023-09-11 17:45         ` orbea
2023-09-11 19:20       ` Dale
2023-09-11 20:31         ` Sam James
2023-09-11 21:14           ` orbea
2023-09-11 21:21             ` Sam James
2023-09-11 21:29               ` Alexey Sokolov
2023-09-11 21:35                 ` Sam James
2023-09-11 21:43                   ` Alexey Sokolov
2023-09-11 21:51                     ` Alexe Stefan
2023-09-11 21:59                       ` Sam James
2023-09-11 21:32               ` orbea
2023-09-11 21:50                 ` Sam James
2023-09-11 22:10                   ` orbea
2023-09-11 22:17                     ` Sam James
2023-09-12  2:34                       ` orbea
2023-09-12  9:18                         ` Rich Freeman
2023-09-12 11:00                           ` Alarig Le Lay
2023-09-14  0:20                           ` [gentoo-dev] " Madhu
2023-09-14  0:47                             ` Alex Boag-Munroe
2023-09-14 14:25                             ` Arsen Arsenović
2023-09-14 14:57                               ` Mike Gilbert
2023-09-14 18:15                                 ` Arsen Arsenović
2023-09-11 21:27           ` [gentoo-dev] " Eddie Chapman
2023-09-11 21:41             ` Sam James
2023-09-11 22:22               ` Eddie Chapman
2023-09-11 22:27                 ` Sam James
2023-09-12 13:36                   ` Eddie Chapman
2023-09-12 13:57                     ` Sam James
2023-09-12 14:12                     ` Rich Freeman
2023-09-12 14:17                       ` Sam James
2023-09-12 15:04                         ` Eddie Chapman
2023-09-12 18:47                           ` Matt Turner
2023-09-12 15:35                         ` orbea
2023-09-12 17:23                           ` Alexe Stefan
2023-09-12 17:36                             ` orbea
2023-09-12 19:06                               ` Eddie Chapman
2023-09-12 19:32                                 ` orbea
2023-09-12 18:53                             ` Matt Turner
2023-09-12 18:58                               ` Alexe Stefan
2023-09-12 23:45                             ` karl
2023-09-12 18:51                           ` Matt Turner
2023-09-12 19:05                             ` orbea
2023-09-12 19:56                               ` Eli Schwartz
2023-09-12 20:59                                 ` Dale
2023-09-12 20:37                               ` Matt Turner
2023-09-12 14:55                       ` Eddie Chapman
2023-09-12 15:00                         ` Sam James
2023-09-12 19:21                         ` Andreas K. Huettel
2023-09-12 19:47                           ` Eddie Chapman
2023-09-12 20:33                             ` Andrew Ammerlaan
2023-09-12 21:23                               ` Eddie Chapman
2023-09-12 21:36                                 ` Matt Turner
2023-09-12 21:45                                   ` Alexe Stefan
2023-09-12 21:52                                     ` Matt Turner
2023-09-13  4:35                                       ` Alexe Stefan
2023-09-13  4:56                                         ` Eli Schwartz
2023-09-13  5:03                                           ` Alexe Stefan
2023-09-13  5:38                                             ` Eli Schwartz
2023-09-13  6:13                                               ` Alexe Stefan
2023-09-13  6:19                                                 ` Alexe Stefan
2023-09-13  6:40                                                 ` Dale
2023-09-13  6:54                                                   ` Alexe Stefan
2023-09-13  7:23                                                     ` Dale
2023-09-12 22:35                                   ` Eddie Chapman
2023-09-13  7:55                                 ` Andrew Ammerlaan [this message]
2023-09-13  8:10                                   ` Dale
2023-09-16  6:01                                     ` Oskari Pirhonen
2023-09-16  6:09                                       ` Sam James
2023-09-16  7:15                                         ` Dale
2023-09-13  8:13                                   ` Arve Barsnes
2023-09-13 23:49                                   ` Eddie Chapman
2023-09-14 14:16                                   ` Eddie Chapman
2023-09-14 14:44                                     ` Alex Boag-Munroe
2023-09-14 15:30                                       ` Eddie Chapman
2023-09-14 16:09                                         ` Alex Boag-Munroe
2023-09-14 16:50                                           ` Eddie Chapman
2023-09-14 17:18                                             ` Alex Boag-Munroe
2023-09-14 18:39                                               ` Alexe Stefan
2023-09-14 19:11                                                 ` Alex Boag-Munroe
2023-09-14 17:27                                             ` Rich Freeman
2023-09-14 17:39                                               ` Eddie Chapman
2023-09-14 17:52                                                 ` Alex Boag-Munroe
2023-09-14 17:57                                                 ` Rich Freeman
2023-09-14 23:19                                                 ` Arsen Arsenović
2023-09-15 15:10                                                   ` orbea
2023-09-15 18:38                                                     ` Alexey Sokolov
2023-09-15 18:56                                                       ` orbea
2023-09-15 22:25                                                         ` Arsen Arsenović
2023-09-15 22:40                                                   ` orbea
2023-09-16  1:12                                                     ` Arsen Arsenović
2023-09-16  9:35                                                     ` David Seifert
2023-09-16 13:32                                                       ` Alexe Stefan
2023-09-16 22:03                                                         ` Arsen Arsenović
2023-09-17  9:00                                                           ` Alexe Stefan
2023-09-17 10:16                                                             ` Arsen Arsenović
2023-09-17 17:56                                                               ` Alexe Stefan
2023-09-17 18:38                                                                 ` Arsen Arsenović
2023-09-14 17:20                                       ` Eddie Chapman
2023-09-14 17:28                                         ` Alex Boag-Munroe
2023-09-14 17:51                                           ` Eddie Chapman
2023-09-14 17:19                                     ` Matt Turner
2023-09-14 17:24                                       ` Eddie Chapman
2023-09-13  2:55                             ` Eli Schwartz
2023-09-13  9:05                               ` Eddie Chapman
2023-09-13  9:34                                 ` Alexe Stefan
2023-09-13  9:43                                   ` Alex Boag-Munroe
2023-09-13 21:57                                   ` Arsen Arsenović
2023-09-12 14:31                     ` martin-kokos
2023-09-12 15:00                       ` Eddie Chapman
2023-09-12 15:20                         ` Sam James
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2023-09-13  1:23 Alex Boag-Munroe
2023-09-13  1:48 ` Alex Boag-Munroe
2021-11-27  0:23 [gentoo-dev] Last " Mike Gilbert
2022-08-30  9:52 ` Jaco Kroon
2022-08-30 10:27   ` Arve Barsnes
2022-08-30 12:26     ` Jaco Kroon

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